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Message no. 1
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 19:18:05 -0600
The question has come up as to whether a mage that's blind is still able to
cast spells against physical targets via astral perception in SR3....

I was inclined to say no, but, I don't remember if that's just a gut
reaction or if it's actually somewhere in the books, can anyone clarify the
ruling per books?

Derek
Message no. 2
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:54:59 +1100
We had debate on this a couple of months ago...

Blind mages can see in astral space ( Yak's bosses daughter in the
"Elven Fire" adveture is blind, true its 2nd ed book, but Im pretty
sure its sticks for 3rd ). Its described as a third eye/see with your
mind not your physical eyes type kind of thing.

To do something in the real world while's astrally perceiving I
believe give s +4 TN, e.g. open a door, fire a gun, cast a spell.

So my answer would be yes and lets not even mention mirrors in astral
space :)




On 13/01/2006, at 12:18 PM, Derek Hyde wrote:

> The question has come up as to whether a mage that's blind is still
> able to
> cast spells against physical targets via astral perception in SR3....
>
> I was inclined to say no, but, I don't remember if that's just a gut
> reaction or if it's actually somewhere in the books, can anyone
> clarify the
> ruling per books?
>
> Derek
>
>

Owen McKerrow
WebMaster, emlab
http://emlab.uow.edu.au

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - - -

People who prefer typing to pointing then seem to prefer acronyms to
save typing :-)
-Denis Stanton, On people using Command Line Interfaces
Message no. 3
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:03:08 +0000
On Fri, Jan 13, 2006 at 12:54:59PM +1100, Owen McKerrow wrote:
> We had debate on this a couple of months ago...
>
> Blind mages can see in astral space ( Yak's bosses daughter in the
> "Elven Fire" adveture is blind, true its 2nd ed book, but Im pretty
> sure its sticks for 3rd ). Its described as a third eye/see with your
> mind not your physical eyes type kind of thing.
>
> To do something in the real world while's astrally perceiving I
> believe give s +4 TN, e.g. open a door, fire a gun, cast a spell.
>
> So my answer would be yes and lets not even mention mirrors in astral
> space :)
>

The blindness flaw in the 3rd edition companion specifically mentions that magically
active characters get fewer points for it for this reason. And I believe the penalty is
only +2, not +4.

It's the same basic deal in 4th edition, only the penalty is -2 dice.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org
Message no. 4
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:04:04 -0800 (PST)
--- Derek Hyde <derek@***************.com> wrote:

> The question has come up as to whether a mage that's blind is >
still able to cast spells against physical targets via astral >
perception in SR3....
>
> I was inclined to say no, but, I don't remember if that's just a
> gut reaction or if it's actually somewhere in the books, can >
anyone clarify the ruling per books?

SR3 states that an astrally perceiving mage is dual natured, and
could hence cast spells at either physical or astral targets. I
don't see any reason to even apply a penalty to the mage's sorcery
test.

The penalty for attempting physical actions (shoot a gun, drive a
car, etc) while astrally perceiving is +2 TN in SR3.

======Korishinzo
--mages can see people in the dark... but not drones :>

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Message no. 5
From: swiftone@********.org (Brett Sanger)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 14:03:37 -0500
On Thu, Jan 12, 2006 at 07:18:05PM -0600, Derek Hyde wrote:
> The question has come up as to whether a mage that's blind is still able to
> cast spells against physical targets via astral perception in SR3....

SR4 p 182. Astral Perception is not linked to physical vision, and you
get a penalty for non-magical, physical tasks.

I read that as saying yes you can cast, and there is no penalty.

--
SwiftOne / Brett Sanger
swiftone@********.org
Message no. 6
From: flakjacket@***********.com (Simon Nixon)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 19:10:08 +0000 (GMT)
Brett Sanger wrote:

> SR4 p 182. Astral Perception is not linked to
> physical vision, and you
> get a penalty for non-magical, physical tasks.

I always figured that as a reflection of having to do
the task whilst having the astral image overlayed over
your regular vision and other senses. Begs the
question though, if a character has been blind from
pretty young and has learnt to do things /just/ using
astral sight, do you think it'd be approriate to
either drop or downgrade the modifier to -1?

Simon
Message no. 7
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 11:31:32 -0800 (PST)
> I always figured that as a reflection of having to do
> the task whilst having the astral image overlayed over
> your regular vision and other senses. Begs the
> question though, if a character has been blind from
> pretty young and has learnt to do things /just/ using
> astral sight, do you think it'd be approriate to
> either drop or downgrade the modifier to -1?

I don't think so. Remember, while astrally perceiving, one cannot
see a gun in their own hand. Or the lock they want to override, or
even the microtronics tools they are using. Or a steering wheel. Or
Potholes. Only living things provide any visible light in the
astral, non-living things are dead space. A barrier to the "sight",
but nothing else. So one has to do everything by a sense of feel,
guided by a sure knowledge of where people, plants, and animals are.
"Blind from Birth" might be an Edge a blind character could take. Or
"Tactile Genius". Or any number of things to grant lower target
number penalties for doing things by touch and estimate.

I've had players propose blind characters before with various sensory
Edges, adept powers, or cyberware to help offset the blindness
penalties. At least once a year, for example, I see some take on
Daredevil under SR rules.

======Korishinzo
--Then again, that is about how often I see Spiderman, Wolverine, or
Gambit created under SR rules, so... :)



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Message no. 8
From: derek@***************.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:37:39 -0600
> SR3 states that an astrally perceiving mage is dual natured, and
> could hence cast spells at either physical or astral targets. I
> don't see any reason to even apply a penalty to the mage's sorcery
> test.
>
> The penalty for attempting physical actions (shoot a gun, drive a
> car, etc) while astrally perceiving is +2 TN in SR3.

Ok, let me clarify, the point of contention is the fact that (like a ghoul)
he's blind physically, so he'll be doing all of his "seeing" astrally....

Should that make any difference at all?
Message no. 9
From: weberm@*******.net (Ubiquitous)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 21:49:07 -0500
At 07:18 PM 1/12/2006 -0600, you wrote:

>The question has come up as to whether a mage that's blind is still able to
>cast spells against physical targets via astral perception in SR3....

Yes, but not if projecting.

--
"Ted, sweetheart...somebody's left a wicker basket with a little baby in it
on our front doorstep."
"Just leave it out there on the stoop, honey. The cats'll get it."
- Red Meat http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/
Message no. 10
From: snicker@*********.net (Snicker)
Subject: Blind Mages and Astral Perception
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2006 07:26:17 -0600
At 01:31 PM 1/14/2006, Ice Heart wrote:
> > I always figured that as a reflection of having to do
> > the task whilst having the astral image overlayed over
> > your regular vision and other senses. Begs the
> > question though, if a character has been blind from
> > pretty young and has learnt to do things /just/ using
> > astral sight, do you think it'd be approriate to
> > either drop or downgrade the modifier to -1?
>
>I don't think so. Remember, while astrally perceiving, one cannot
>see a gun in their own hand. Or the lock they want to override, or
>even the microtronics tools they are using. Or a steering wheel. Or
>Potholes. Only living things provide any visible light in the
>astral, non-living things are dead space. A barrier to the "sight",
>but nothing else. So one has to do everything by a sense of feel,
>guided by a sure knowledge of where people, plants, and animals are.
>"Blind from Birth" might be an Edge a blind character could take. Or
>"Tactile Genius". Or any number of things to grant lower target
>number penalties for doing things by touch and estimate.

Did I miss a change to Astral Space? If not, then I think you're
misinterpreting something. The way astral space has been described in
previous supplements is not like you describe at all. Were I astrally
perceiving, I would be able to see that there is a gun, but it would not be
"real" - probably shadowy or some such - but I could still see it. They
make the specific example of being able to see a book, but not read the
words, though you could, perhaps, sense some emotional content.

Anyway, if someone's blindness does not pose them any difficulties, then
there should be no bonus points for it.

Snicker

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