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Message no. 1
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 13:30:37 -0700
Ok, I've been on the list for a few months without really asking any
questions of my own, but here's one for ya. :)

Is astral perception in any way affected by blindness? I mean, if a
blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a normal field
of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see in all
directions? Also, could he mask his aura to appear mundane and be
astrally perceiving without getting caught at his own game?

Panther
Message no. 2
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:06:13 -0500
> Is astral perception in any way affected by blindness? I mean, if a
> blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a normal field
> of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see in all
> directions? Also, could he mask his aura to appear mundane and be
> astrally perceiving without getting caught at his own game?

Astral perception is not affected by physical blindness under normal
circumstances (there is one group that is mentioned in the Germany book,
but they don't matter if you don't have it). His perceptions would always
be astral (no reading, living things and spirits glow, while non-living
things don't show up that clearly). If you're astrally perceiving, you
cannot mask yourself to appear as a mundane, but you can appear as an
normal magician if you're an adept.
Of course, if you're blind (rather interesting that I'm answering while
watching tonight's X-Files) and a magician, you could likely quicken or
lock a health or detection spell that allows you to see.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 3
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:46:33 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Nexx
Sent: April 19, 1998 9:06 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception

Of course, if you're blind (rather interesting that I'm answering
while
watching tonight's X-Files) and a magician, you could likely quicken or
lock a health or detection spell that allows you to see.
========================================================

Hi,
Good points you have there. It would make sense that with the tech and
magick available in the Shadowrun universe that total permanent blindness
would be very rare, only the poor would so suffer, not likely would any
runner. Having said that, I can see where a runner would "choose" to remain
blind. I put the word in quotes in order to indicated that this would not
necessarily be a conscious choice, perhaps the the runner's subconscious
mind wants to punish him and keeps him from being healed.

Also, not all causes of blindness can be cured, not even by health spells.
So, it could still occur normally. I believe a person blind from birth, but
having the natual ability to astraly perceive, would possibly see things as
if from the centre of a sphere, "seeing" in all directions at once. Rather,
the information would be ordered holistically. A person blinded after birth
would probably have the same limitation placed on sighted people when it
comes to astral pereception.

As for detec spells, guess they would work. Could be cool, a blind person
with a locked clairvoyance spell.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:32:41 +0100
Panther said on 13:30/11 Apr 98...

> Is astral perception in any way affected by blindness?

No. In one of FASA's modules, there is a blind mage who astrally
perceives. Awakenings also mentions something along the lines of astral
perception not being tied to physical sight, IIRC.

> I mean, if a blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a
> normal field of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see
> in all directions?

Not in my game, but as with many magic-related issues, it's open to
interpretation.

> Also, could he mask his aura to appear mundane and be astrally
> perceiving without getting caught at his own game?

Only initiates can mask their auras, and IMHO you can't mask that you're
using astral perception, or change your aura's appearance from "blind" to
"seeing".

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:04:21 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: April 20, 1998 5:33 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception


> I mean, if a blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a
> normal field of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see
> in all directions?

Not in my game, but as with many magic-related issues, it's open to
interpretation.
==================================

I hate to nitpick, but here a A or B type question was asked, and you
answered no. Did you mean to say that neither of those two options were
correct? And NO, it is not obvious. I could make an assuption, but it is not
my place to assume the answer, it is yours to make it clear. Or else, why
bother answering?

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:11:28 +0100
Katt Freyson said on 12:04/20 Apr 98...

> > I mean, if a blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a
> > normal field of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see
> > in all directions?
>
> Not in my game, but as with many magic-related issues, it's open to
> interpretation.
> ==================================
>
> I hate to nitpick, but here a A or B type question was asked, and you
> answered no. Did you mean to say that neither of those two options were
> correct?

<Beavis>Sorry 'bout that</Beavis> I have this habit of half-reading
messages and then replying to them (yours took me longer because I was
intrigued by the line saying:

From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Gurth

at the top... :)

Anyway, what happened was that I saw the "like radar" bit, replied
"no,"
and didn't notice there were actually two questions in there... To give a
full answer, my opinion is that any astral perception gives a normal field
of vision -- more or less 180 degrees, with a focus on about 60 degrees;
definitely not 360 degree except by turning your aura's head. My main
reason for this ruling is that it makes things easier to visualize for
both player and GM, because it makes astral perception a bit more
comparable to vision, which most of us are used to anyway.

> And NO, it is not obvious. I could make an assuption, but it is not my
> place to assume the answer, it is yours to make it clear. Or else, why
> bother answering?

To stay the #1 poster on this list? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 7
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:29:35 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 2:50:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time, qmilton@**.NET
writes:

> Is astral perception in any way affected by blindness? I mean, if a
> blind mage astrally perceived, would he have similar to a normal field
> of vision, or would it be like radar, letting the mage see in all
> directions?

Indirectly yes, for more information, consider the Ghoul, which is Blind from
brith (second gen are at least). They are Dual Nature, and have used such
senses for their benefit more than once. Just remember that Astral Perception
isn't really what anyone would call "Technologically Friendly"...

> Also, could he mask his aura to appear mundane and be
> astrally perceiving without getting caught at his own game?

IMO, yes, but I vary from the rules of FASA Canon. They give guidelines that
Aura Masking can't do anything but "obscure a person's aura from general
assensing" and "make an initiated magician appear uninitiated." Of course,
you can also use Masking to hide a bonded foci.

We've done similar things to what you suggest, but that is a House Rule AFAIK.

-K
Message no. 8
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:38:03 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of Gurth
Sent: April 20, 1998 5:11 PM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception

Katt Freyson said on 12:04/20 Apr 98...


> And NO, it is not obvious. I could make an assuption, but it is not my
> place to assume the answer, it is yours to make it clear. Or else, why
> bother answering?

To stay the #1 poster on this list? :)
==================
Love it. Great comeback Gurth. BTW, the reason my posts have the headers
they do is thanks to OutLook 98. It seems to be able to figure out that a
post came from a mailing list by reading the headers. Makes the creation of
eMail filtering rules easier to.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 9
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:40:14 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 3:00:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
nexx@********.NET writes:

> Of course, if you're blind (rather interesting that I'm answering
> while
> watching tonight's X-Files) and a magician, you could likely quicken or
> lock a health or detection spell that allows you to see.
>
Actually, in one of the books I seem to recall a Ghoul Mage type that had
"Sight" as a spell (Detection). Drain was only "Light", as all the
spell did
was grant "normal, unaided sight".

-K
Message no. 10
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 12:10:23 -0700
Ereskanti wrote:
>
> > Also, could he mask his aura to appear mundane and be
> > astrally perceiving without getting caught at his own game?
>
> IMO, yes, but I vary from the rules of FASA Canon. They give guidelines that
> Aura Masking can't do anything but "obscure a person's aura from general
> assensing" and "make an initiated magician appear uninitiated." Of
course,
> you can also use Masking to hide a bonded foci.

Actually, Awakenings specifically states that an initiate CAN mask
his/her aura to appear mundane. I'm just wondering if it can be done
while assensing.

Panther
Message no. 11
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:23:03 -0400
At 12:10 PM 4/12/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Actually, Awakenings specifically states that an initiate CAN mask
>his/her aura to appear mundane. I'm just wondering if it can be done
>while assensing.

No.

One astrally percieving entity is able to tell what other objects are also
astrally percieving. Plus there's that "locking eyes in a crowded room"
affect, where you know the blind person is looking right at you on the astral.

So your astrally perceiving blind person is going to go through life seeing
only the astral (and probably in a similar fashion to "normal" vision,
although there supposedly aren't any strict analogues between real and
astral senses, as in you might smell a taste in the astral) and being open
to astral attack any time they are awake.

Let's also remember that nearly all forms of blindess can be eliminated in
205X with bioware or cyberware. Unless the blindness is a neurological
(brain or certain kinds of nerve damage) or psychological disfunction (able
to see, but subconsiously doesn't want to see).

Speaking of blindness and the X-Files, was it just me or did Mulder seem to
have a "thing" for the blind woman? I mean, practically holding hands at
the end there...seemed out of character to me. Oh well, that's OT.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 12
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 13:58:37 -0700
Erik Jameson wrote:
>
> So your astrally perceiving blind person is going to go through life seeing
> only the astral (and probably in a similar fashion to "normal" vision,
> although there supposedly aren't any strict analogues between real and
> astral senses, as in you might smell a taste in the astral) and being open
> to astral attack any time they are awake.

Who ever said he'd ALWAYS be assensing?

Panther
Message no. 13
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:45:37 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 6:34:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, qmilton@**.NET
writes:

> Actually, Awakenings specifically states that an initiate CAN mask
> his/her aura to appear mundane. I'm just wondering if it can be done
> while assensing.
>
okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Aura Masking" on a conscious level
considered to be an "Exclusive Action"? If it is, then by-the-book, what you
are wanting to do isn't possible. But again, to us here, yes, it is. Like
combining different sets of actions.

-K
Message no. 14
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:18:39 -0400
In response to a post Panther made in response to a post Erik made:

I'd say that a visualy impaired [eg: blind] person capable of astrally
sensing, would most likely [note: most likely, not automaticaly, or always]
be doing so during waking hours, for this would probably end up being their
primary sense, just as sight is in those humans [and metahumans] who are
sighted.

Unless the person has been given an alternative, such as a detec spell
locked, or quicken, or otherwise made permanent, it would be silly for such
to give up such a powerful sensory method. While it is true that this would
make the person vulnerable to astral based attacks, this of itself is not
necessarily enough of a deterent to offset the benefits.

If the person is a mage, there is plenty he can do to defend himself. If
the person is not, there are still ways. For example, unless I am mistaken,
if someone can detect a spiritual entity on the astral plane, one can use
mele combat on them. Remember that spells are astral entities, ergo [once
again, unless I am very mistaken] an astrally sesnsing samurai could protect
himself from spirits and spells.

So, yes, an astrally sensing person would more than likely be open to
astrally based attacks, but at the same time would have more of a chance to
defend against such. Compare the poor astrally blind fool who carries a
spell lock.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
Message no. 15
From: Panther <qmilton@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Sun, 12 Apr 1998 16:06:17 -0700
Ereskanti wrote:
>
> okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Aura Masking" on a conscious
level
> considered to be an "Exclusive Action"? If it is, then by-the-book, what
you
> are wanting to do isn't possible. But again, to us here, yes, it is. Like
> combining different sets of actions.

Hmm....yeah, it's an "Exclusive Action", but it says that that just
means that you can't cast or sustain spells. It doesn't even mention
astral perception in the section on Deliberate Masking.

Panther

p.s. it was Grimoire, not Awakenings, my mistake
Message no. 16
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:18:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/20/98 7:31:21 PM US Eastern Standard Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

>
> One astrally percieving entity is able to tell what other objects are also
> astrally percieving. Plus there's that "locking eyes in a crowded room"
> affect, where you know the blind person is looking right at you on the
> astral.
>
Actually, that is a Role-Playing thing Erik. You don't have to be "looking
right at someone"...they just have to have an unobstructued LOS, Astral LOS in
this case. That "mage" could be stairing off at the wall for it matters, and
be concentrating astrally on just the "subject" at hand.

-K
Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:59:13 +0100
Katt Freyson said on 23:18/20 Apr 98...

> So, yes, an astrally sensing person would more than likely be open to
> astrally based attacks, but at the same time would have more of a chance to
> defend against such. Compare the poor astrally blind fool who carries a
> spell lock.

This brings up a little problem I ran into when allowing one of my
players to play a cyberzombie: cyberzombies are astrally active, but
cannot perceive or project. This means they are open to attack from the
astral plane, and spells can be ground through them. No problems there.

Where a problem does come up is when the player asked me whether the
character could attack someone on the astral. (People who aren't active on
the astral just push astral creatures out of the way.) She reasoned that
if the character knows where the target is (for example, a watcher showing
itself on the physical plane), she could punch it and cause damage. I've
agreed with this, but I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 18
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:59:13 +0100
Ereskanti said on 22:45/20 Apr 98...

> > Actually, Awakenings specifically states that an initiate CAN mask
> > his/her aura to appear mundane. I'm just wondering if it can be done
> > while assensing.

I don't see why not. However, it would appear very odd to astral
"onlookers", because what you end up with is a mundane aura which is
somehow perceiving astrally.

> okay, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't "Aura Masking" on a conscious
level
> considered to be an "Exclusive Action"?

Yes. Normal masking isn't an exclusive action, but trying extra hard is
(Deliberate Masking, Grimoire, page 46).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 19
From: Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:37:22 +0200
>> So, yes, an astrally sensing person would more than likely be
open to
>> astrally based attacks, but at the same time would have more of a chance to
>> defend against such. Compare the poor astrally blind fool who carries a
>> spell lock.
>
>This brings up a little problem I ran into when allowing one of my
>players to play a cyberzombie: cyberzombies are astrally active, but
>cannot perceive or project. This means they are open to attack from the
>astral plane, and spells can be ground through them. No problems there.
>
>Where a problem does come up is when the player asked me whether the
>character could attack someone on the astral. (People who aren't active on
>the astral just push astral creatures out of the way.) She reasoned that
>if the character knows where the target is (for example, a watcher showing
>itself on the physical plane), she could punch it and cause damage. I've
>agreed with this, but I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

I wouldn't allow it (I had a cyberzomby PC too... :).
IMO, a cyberzomby isn't astraly active in himself. I think that's the
*spell* used during the ritual that is active (in a way similar to a spell
lock... To prevent any flame war around grounding through a quickened
spell). When a mage attacks him from astral, he uses this bound and not the
man himself.
So, when he fights an astral entity, he just does nothing.
When the PC became a cyberzomby, I thought about how much the corp invested
in him. After having seen the number of nuyen, I found it logical to pay a
bit more for having a mage mask this bound. So, the cyberzomby wasn't
anymore astraly active (except for those who succeeded in piercing the mask).

- Cobra.
Message no. 20
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:57:18 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 21 April 1998 10:57
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception


Katt Freyson said on 23:18/20 Apr 98...

> So, yes, an astrally sensing person would more than likely be open
to
> astrally based attacks, but at the same time would have more of a chance
to
> defend against such. Compare the poor astrally blind fool who carries a
> spell lock.

This brings up a little problem I ran into when allowing one of my
players to play a cyberzombie: cyberzombies are astrally active, but
cannot perceive or project. This means they are open to attack from the
astral plane, and spells can be ground through them. No problems there.

Where a problem does come up is when the player asked me whether the
character could attack someone on the astral. (People who aren't active on
the astral just push astral creatures out of the way.) She reasoned that
if the character knows where the target is (for example, a watcher showing
itself on the physical plane), she could punch it and cause damage. I've
>agreed with this, but I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

No, I say not. Astral combat is as much about willpower and focus as
'bodily' force, hence a mundy attacking a manifest spirit uses Willpower as
a combat skill. Being astrally active but unpercieving would preclude being
able to focus sufficiently on the target to inflict damage. You could
probably try to block something that couldnt use fast movement though.

Mark
Message no. 21
From: Brian Moore <mooreb@*****.FAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:52:04 -0400
Gurth <gurth@******.NL> said:
> This brings up a little problem I ran into when allowing one of my
> players to play a cyberzombie: cyberzombies are astrally active, but
> cannot perceive or project. This means they are open to attack from the
> astral plane, and spells can be ground through them. No problems there.
>
> Where a problem does come up is when the player asked me whether the
> character could attack someone on the astral. (People who aren't active on
> the astral just push astral creatures out of the way.) She reasoned that
> if the character knows where the target is (for example, a watcher showing
> itself on the physical plane), she could punch it and cause damage. I've
> agreed with this, but I'd like to hear other peoples' opinions about it.

I'd say no. IMHO, there's a number of discrete levels of astral activity:

# Title Examples Home Affect Other
1 Living things mundane people & animals mundane No
2 Astrally Active CyberZombies, perceiving mages mundane Slightly
3 Dual-Natured shapeshifters, some paranimals mundane Yes
4 Manifested manifested elementals & spirits astral Yes
5 Materialized "manifested" watchers and mages astral Slightly
6 Astral spirits, projecting mages, ... astral No

Home defines which plane controls movement, while Affect Other defines
how well they can affect the other plane. Assuming the ratings are
correct, we see that CyberZombies cannot use mundane physical attacks
to affect astral things, only dual-natured critters can. CyberZombies
are classed with astrally perceiving mages, who must use Sorcery, a
weapon focus, or Killing Hands to affect astral things.

Of course you might put CyberZombies with dual-natured things, then it
would be OK.

--
Brian Moore, mooreb@***.com | I wrote up a nice script to truncate all News&
First Albany Corp. Sysadmin | Mail sigs that are greater than 4 lines long.
standard disclaimers apply | It is still in beta testing due to an off-by-
Message no. 22
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:36:23 +0100
Brian Moore said on 14:52/22 Apr 98...

> I'd say no. IMHO, there's a number of discrete levels of astral activity:
[snip table]
> Home defines which plane controls movement, while Affect Other defines
> how well they can affect the other plane. Assuming the ratings are
> correct, we see that CyberZombies cannot use mundane physical attacks
> to affect astral things, only dual-natured critters can. CyberZombies
> are classed with astrally perceiving mages, who must use Sorcery, a
> weapon focus, or Killing Hands to affect astral things.
>
> Of course you might put CyberZombies with dual-natured things, then it
> would be OK.

What I did was reason that a cyberzombie is dual-natured, but because the
character wasn't a magician before all the implants (and surely isn't one
after getting them :) he or she isn't able to use astral perception. That
way a cyberzombie can attack others on the astral plane, following the
same rules as other dual-natured critters. Attempting to hit someone who
isn't physically manifesting then follows the rules for blind fighting --
a +8 to the TN, basically.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 23
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:24:24 -0400
At 09:36 PM 4/22/98 +0100, you wrote:

>What I did was reason that a cyberzombie is dual-natured, but because the
>character wasn't a magician before all the implants (and surely isn't one
>after getting them :) he or she isn't able to use astral perception. That
>way a cyberzombie can attack others on the astral plane, following the
>same rules as other dual-natured critters. Attempting to hit someone who
>isn't physically manifesting then follows the rules for blind fighting --
>a +8 to the TN, basically.

That's only half the problem though Gurth. Blind fighting is fine and that
part of the answer is cool. But how the heck is the cyberzombie going to
affect a fully astral being?

Can't be done; there's essentially no magical charge, if you will, behind
the punches being thrown. An astrally active magician can harm the spirit,
but they are partially on that plane anyway. A physadept with killing
hands could do it as you describe, since there is a magical charge behind
their fists and feet. But a mundane CANNOT affect anything in astral space.

Not to mention the fact that *theoretically*, because an astral form can
use "fast movement" the astral being that is under attack by the
cyberzombie can essentially just play with the cz.

You know, zip in, bap the cz on the head, zip out halfway across the world,
zip back in, kick the cz in the ass, zip back out, zip back in again, kick
the cz in the crotch, and so on. There's really no way that some damn
cyberzombie is going to be able to defend against that. If there's no way
the cz can possibly detect the astral being, how can the cz not be suprised
everytime?

Essentially the cyberzombie has so many drawbacks, like this one, there's
almost no real reason for PCs to be one. So what if they are mundane
combat gods! A damn watcher spirit could kill a cyberzombie in theory and
not take any damage at all. No, cyberzombies don't scare me. Wouldn't
want to meet one in a dark alley, but they can be killed more easily than a
straight not-quite-dead street samurai.

Erik J.


"Forgive me FASA for I have sinned. It has been 6 days since I last played
Shadowrun and 15 days since I last bought a SRTCG booster pack."
Message no. 24
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:07:54 EDT
In a message dated 4/22/98 2:37:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.NL writes:

Small spoiler space because I'm trying to be nice....

















> What I did was reason that a cyberzombie is dual-natured, but because the
> character wasn't a magician before all the implants (and surely isn't one
> after getting them :) he or she isn't able to use astral perception. That
> way a cyberzombie can attack others on the astral plane, following the
> same rules as other dual-natured critters. Attempting to hit someone who
> isn't physically manifesting then follows the rules for blind fighting --
> a +8 to the TN, basically.
>
Uh, Gurth, hate to do this to you (actually...no I don't :), but "Billy" in
the books was a magician in his past, and when he finally burned out all the
way, they made him into a Cyberzombie to continue his inherent usefulness.
I'd imagine they had his previous thesis/links in order to assist in the
process no less.

-K
Message no. 25
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:47:09 +0100
Erik Jameson said on 16:24/22 Apr 98...

> >What I did was reason that a cyberzombie is dual-natured
>
> That's only half the problem though Gurth. Blind fighting is fine and that
> part of the answer is cool. But how the heck is the cyberzombie going to
> affect a fully astral being?

The first line above should answer that -- my take on it is that a
cyberzombie is dual-natured (okay, it's because of the spells, but
effectively the char is present on both planes) so they can fight
fully-astral beings.

> Not to mention the fact that *theoretically*, because an astral form can
> use "fast movement" the astral being that is under attack by the
> cyberzombie can essentially just play with the cz.

Naturally. I never said the cyberzombie would have an easy time at it, did
I? The player in my group wanted to know what the character could do in
this respect, and I answered it according to my interpretation of the
rules.

> Essentially the cyberzombie has so many drawbacks, like this one, there's
> almost no real reason for PCs to be one. So what if they are mundane
> combat gods!

Well, the player seemed to like the idea of playing a character with so
many obvious drawbacks (even after I explained most of them in some
depth), so who am I to say no?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 26
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:47:09 +0100
Ereskanti said on 19:07/22 Apr 98...

> In a message dated 4/22/98 2:37:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> gurth@******.NL writes:
>
> Small spoiler space because I'm trying to be nice....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Uh, Gurth, hate to do this to you (actually...no I don't :), but "Billy"
in
> the books was a magician in his past, and when he finally burned out all the
> way, they made him into a Cyberzombie to continue his inherent usefulness.
> I'd imagine they had his previous thesis/links in order to assist in the
> process no less.

Which "Billy" is this that you're referring to? If it's from one of the
more recent novels (after World Without End), I haven't read it, so I
can't really have an idea what you're talking about.

At any rate, it doesn't make sense to me. At 0 Essence you're a magician
no longer, so why should you still be able to use astral perception if
your Essence drops further?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
going down thinking
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 27
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:14:11 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 23 April 1998 10:47
Subject: Re: Blindness and Astral Perception


Ereskanti said on 19:07/22 Apr 98...

> In a message dated 4/22/98 2:37:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
> gurth@******.NL writes:
>
> Small spoiler space because I'm trying to be nice....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Uh, Gurth, hate to do this to you (actually...no I don't :), but "Billy"
in
> the books was a magician in his past, and when he finally burned out all
the
> way, they made him into a Cyberzombie to continue his inherent usefulness.
> I'd imagine they had his previous thesis/links in order to assist in the
> process no less.

>Which "Billy" is this that you're referring to? If it's from one of the
more recent novels (after World Without End), I haven't read it, so I
can't really have an idea what you're talking about.

At any rate, it doesn't make sense to me. At 0 Essence you're a magician
no longer, so why should you still be able to use astral perception if
>your Essence drops further?

I'd imagine he's talking about the CZ in the Dragonheart Saga. And Esence
doesn't solely affect magical ability, you can keep on top of the loss
through initiation. Of course by this point you'll have so many geasa you'd
probably have to stand on your head and pick your nose to do anything
mystical :)

Mark, who doesnt want to meet an initiated cyberzombie.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Blindness and Astral Perception, you may also be interested in:

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