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From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:52:58 +0100

Message no. 1 As I'm running a Cyberpirates campaign, I'm in need of stats for
watercraft. I decided to make up a bunch myself using the rules in Rigger
2 (although any pointers to boat and ship stats on the net are very
welcome), but I ran into a problem when it comes to living amenities: no
boat has more than 108 CF available, yet LA need 200 CF. To make this
worse, several of the boats in R2 _do_ have LA installed in them, which
BTB should be illegal... Is there an official answer I'm not aware of, or
lacking that, what solutions have others come up with?

Also, I don't suppose anyone has any idea when FASA will finally publish
the ship design rules we'd been promised for Cyberpirates and Target:
Smuggler Havens? I could use them when my players manage to get their
hands on a ship, once they find out the luxury yacht they're planning to
steal ATM probably isn't that good a choice after all :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Schizi@*.com Schizi@*.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:56:52 EST

Message no. 2 In a message dated 2/24/99 7:53:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, gurth@******.nl
writes:

> To make this
> worse, several of the boats in R2 _do_ have LA installed in them, which
> BTB should be illegal... Is there an official answer I'm not aware of, or
> lacking that, what solutions have others come up with?

well, maybe since they are so tall, you just tack on external cargo space and
built UP. yeah, that sounds good.
I like Rigger 2, but find that most of the time when I design something I
run into more custom rules for the stuff I want :-) (especially the super
spider that would have little docking ports for three arachnids and be about
the size of a large dog, that wasn't very succesful at all)

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:08:29 EST

Message no. 3 In a message dated 2/24/1999 3:01:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Schizi@***.com writes:

>
> I like Rigger 2, but find that most of the time when I design something I
> run into more custom rules for the stuff I want :-) (especially the super
> spider that would have little docking ports for three arachnids and be
about
> the size of a large dog, that wasn't very succesful at all)
>
We've had similar constraints recently ourselves, so much so that even with
Mike B's expansions on power plants and the like, we keep running into
difficulties. The problem with "LA" concept in R2 is that most character's do
NOT really go for the "completely mobile" concept in their characters. AKA:
they are usually city based, and do not have a mobility to them.

To us, remaining mobile is *THE* surviving factor. Sure, they have places to
go back to, but because of the mobile operations concept (usually a converted
Roadmaster or Stepvan concept), it becomes harder for major authorities to
track in on the characters in question.

Riggers and Deckers are both majorly useful when combining situations like
this.

-K

From:	JonSzeto@*.com JonSzeto@*.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:07:17 EST

Message no. 4 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> wrote,

> As I'm running a Cyberpirates campaign, I'm in need of stats for
> watercraft. I decided to make up a bunch myself using the rules in Rigger
> 2 (although any pointers to boat and ship stats on the net are very
> welcome), but I ran into a problem when it comes to living amenities: no
> boat has more than 108 CF available, yet LA need 200 CF. To make this
> worse, several of the boats in R2 _do_ have LA installed in them, which
> BTB should be illegal... Is there an official answer I'm not aware of, or
> lacking that, what solutions have others come up with?

The large majority of the space requirements for living amenities (in fact,
160 CF worth of it) is there to provide "standing" room for the occupants. 160
CF translates to 20 cubic meters; if you assume a headroom of about 3 meters,
we're talking about a room with an area of 6.7 square meters, or 72 square
feet: 8' x 9', about the size of the kitchen in my apartment (minus counters
and appliances).

I suppose you could reduce that 160 CF, sacrificing the standing room to make
it fit into a smaller area. Assuming a headroom of 3 meters, every 24 CF given
up reduces the living space by 1 square meter. (This doesn't include
necessities like bunk space or toilet space.)

Note also that the yacht chassis comes with Living Amenities built in. Since
this already covers the necessities (bunks, head, and cocktail bar :-),
whatever remaining internal space is available as "living space." Note also
that this is INTERNAL space; areas open to the outside --- which are common on
yachts --- don't count as much against CF.

> Also, I don't suppose anyone has any idea when FASA will finally publish
> the ship design rules we'd been promised for Cyberpirates and Target:
> Smuggler Havens? I could use them when my players manage to get their
> hands on a ship, once they find out the luxury yacht they're planning to
> steal ATM probably isn't that good a choice after all :)

Officially? Your guess is as good as mine. :-/ I wouldn't expect anything in
1999. The last time I talked to Mike, he had a brainstorm idea for a
sourcebook in 2000 where the ship design rules could go in. (No, I don't have
any more details beyond that.)

-- Jon

From:	chimerae@*.ie chimerae@*.ie
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:05:09 +0000

Message no. 5 and thus did JonSzeto@***.com speak on 28 Feb 99 at 0:07:

> The large majority of the space requirements for living amenities (in fact,
> 160 CF worth of it) is there to provide "standing" room for the occupants.
160
> CF translates to 20 cubic meters; if you assume a headroom of about 3 meters,
> we're talking about a room with an area of 6.7 square meters, or 72 square
> feet: 8' x 9', about the size of the kitchen in my apartment (minus counters
> and appliances).

On yachts, caravans and campers 3 meters headroom is quite generous.
I'm happy with 2 meters (and no nasty beams which are only 1.80 from
the floor, please :). That would leave you with 10 square meters, or
roughly a three by three room or two by five, which sounds about
right.
Of course a troll wouldn't be very comfortable in there...

Karina & Martin Steffens
chimerae@***.ie

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:42:46 +0100

Message no. 6 According to JonSzeto@***.com, at 0:07 on 28 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> The large majority of the space requirements for living amenities (in fact,
> 160 CF worth of it) is there to provide "standing" room for the occupants.
160
> CF translates to 20 cubic meters; if you assume a headroom of about 3 meters,
> we're talking about a room with an area of 6.7 square meters, or 72 square
> feet: 8' x 9', about the size of the kitchen in my apartment (minus counters
> and appliances).

And you were doing so well writing in Metric up until that last bit... :)

> Note also that the yacht chassis comes with Living Amenities built in.

So THAT's what I overlooked... Yep, that makes a yacht with living
amenities totally legal. Although one problem I still have with living
amenities is that the number of people it's for doesn't figure into the
space it takes up; LA for 100 people apparently only takes up 200 CF an
100 kg... (Or am I missing yet another thing here?)

> Since this already covers the necessities (bunks, head, and cocktail bar
> :-), whatever remaining internal space is available as "living space."
> Note also that this is INTERNAL space; areas open to the outside ---
> which are common on yachts --- don't count as much against CF.

Obviously, and the kind of yachts I was thinking about (and which the PCs
tried to steal during yesterday night's game -- and failed so miserably
that it might make a good revival of the Dumb Things thread :) tend to
have plenty of sun decks and other stuff like that.

> > Also, I don't suppose anyone has any idea when FASA will finally publish
> > the ship design rules we'd been promised for Cyberpirates and Target:
> > Smuggler Havens?
>
> Officially? Your guess is as good as mine. :-/ I wouldn't expect anything in
> 1999. The last time I talked to Mike, he had a brainstorm idea for a
> sourcebook in 2000 where the ship design rules could go in. (No, I don't have
> any more details beyond that.)

In that case I think I'll go tinker with CORPS Vehicle Design System to
see if I can come up with a bunch of conversion stats to create big ships
in SR that fit with the ship stats in Cyberpirates.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	dghost@**.com dghost@**.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:20:03 -0600

Message no. 7 On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:42:46 +0100 "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl> writes:
<SNIP>
>Although one problem I still have with living
>amenities is that the number of people it's for doesn't figure into the
>space it takes up; LA for 100 people apparently only takes up 200 CF an
>100 kg... (Or am I missing yet another thing here?)
<SNIP>

What I use is that Living Ameneties is the general communial stuff. The
number of people it accomodates is determined by the amount of seating
installed (I say, btw, that bench seats can be purchased as beds,
fold-away or otherwise.). After that, its a GM's call as to what the
Living Ameneites actually provides. If you don't do that or something
similar, then I want to sell you a Van that fits 1,000 people ... ;)

--
D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"You, you're like a spoonful of whoopass." --Grace
"A magician is always 'touching' himself" --Page 123, Grimoire (2nd
Edition)

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From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:47:41 EST

Message no. 8 In a message dated 2/28/1999 3:44:08 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.com writes:

>
> What I use is that Living Ameneties is the general communial stuff. The
> number of people it accomodates is determined by the amount of seating
> installed (I say, btw, that bench seats can be purchased as beds,
> fold-away or otherwise.). After that, its a GM's call as to what the
> Living Ameneites actually provides. If you don't do that or something
> similar, then I want to sell you a Van that fits 1,000 people ... ;)
>
> --
I know that we altered the "Living Amenities" concept, to a "X" CF,
plus "Y"
CF per person, but without seeing the book, I don't remember our changes..

-K

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:49:00 +0100

Message no. 9 According to dghost@****.com, at 14:20 on 28 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> What I use is that Living Ameneties is the general communial stuff. The
> number of people it accomodates is determined by the amount of seating
> installed (I say, btw, that bench seats can be purchased as beds,
> fold-away or otherwise.).

That could work, but I prefer to think of living amenities as a small room
with all the stuff you need to live -- like the inside of an RV. What I'm
thinking of is calling 200 CF the space needed for two people (although
you might be able to fit up to six or so if you use eating areas that can
be turned into beds, etc.), mainly because 200 CF (25 cubic meters) is
roughly the space available in the RV my parents used to own, which was
built to comfortably accomodate four people, but had sleeping space for up
to six.

With that in mind, I think I'll revise living amenities for my game to
something like this:

Design Cost: see Rigger 2, page 117
CF Consumed: 100 CF per person (80 CF of this is available to stow gear,
passengers, etc.)
Load Reduction: 50 kg per person

> After that, its a GM's call as to what the Living Ameneites actually
> provides. If you don't do that or something similar, then I want to
> sell you a Van that fits 1,000 people ... ;)

Exactly. Technically, I guess you could build an aircraft carrier and
spend only 200 CF of space for the 6000-strong crew.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Lehlan Decker DeckerL@******.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:41:52 -0500

Message no. 10 >Officially? Your guess is as good as mine. :-/ I wouldn't expect
>anything in1999. The last time I talked to Mike, he had a
>brainstorm idea for a
>sourcebook in 2000 where the ship design rules could go in.
>(No, I don't have any more details beyond that.)
<rant on>
Say what?! Those were originally rumored to be in Smuggler's
Haven, and now their delayed until 2000! So the only
sourcebooks this year are updated to 3rd Ed (even if they have
alittle new material), and those are all running behind schedule.
Anybody besides me feel like writing Mike a long letter.
I love shadowrun, but when you throw in all the delays, poor
website, etc. I almost want to start looking at other games, and
leave Fasa along for a year to catch up.
<RANT off>
Sorry ,been one of those mondays. Hell its been one of those
years so far.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker, Unix Admin (704)331-1149
deckerl@******.com Fax 378-1939
Moore & Van Allen, PLLC Pager 1-888-608-9633

From:	Ereskanti@*.com Ereskanti@*.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:06:40 EST

Message no. 11 In a message dated 3/1/1999 5:50:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
gurth@******.nl writes:

>
> Exactly. Technically, I guess you could build an aircraft carrier and
> spend only 200 CF of space for the 6000-strong crew.

Well, if you put it in exactly the right way, and include Adam G's mathematic
assistance about curved space, you just *MIGHT* be able to pull it off ;-P

-K

From:	Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Mon, 01 Mar 1999 19:41:43 -0800

Message no. 12 At 10:06 PM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/1/1999 5:50:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>gurth@******.nl writes:
>
>>
>> Exactly. Technically, I guess you could build an aircraft carrier and
>> spend only 200 CF of space for the 6000-strong crew.
>
>Well, if you put it in exactly the right way, and include Adam G's mathematic
>assistance about curved space, you just *MIGHT* be able to pull it off ;-P
>
>-K

Heh, I think thats about how tight they pack us Marines in on those
so-called 'troop carrier' amphibious ships.

Imagine your typical bedroom in a one bedroom, small apartment.....then
imagine fitting 16 people in that room. Welcome to the US Navy treating
the US Marine Corps to it's finest accommodations.

Dave

From:	Penta cpenta@*****.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Mon, 01 Mar 1999 22:51:22 -0800

Message no. 13 Dave Post wrote:

> At 10:06 PM 3/1/99 EST, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 3/1/1999 5:50:11 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> >gurth@******.nl writes:
> >
> >>
> >> Exactly. Technically, I guess you could build an aircraft carrier and
> >> spend only 200 CF of space for the 6000-strong crew.
> >
> >Well, if you put it in exactly the right way, and include Adam G's mathematic
> >assistance about curved space, you just *MIGHT* be able to pull it off ;-P
> >
> >-K
>
> Heh, I think thats about how tight they pack us Marines in on those
> so-called 'troop carrier' amphibious ships.
>
> Imagine your typical bedroom in a one bedroom, small apartment.....then
> imagine fitting 16 people in that room. Welcome to the US Navy treating
> the US Marine Corps to it's finest accommodations.
>
> Dave

Gack! Is that legal? Aren't there, like, health codes against that?:)

From:	Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:45:30 +0100

Message no. 14 According to Ereskanti@***.com, at 22:06 on 1 Mar 99, the word on
the street was...

> > Exactly. Technically, I guess you could build an aircraft carrier and
> > spend only 200 CF of space for the 6000-strong crew.
>
> Well, if you put it in exactly the right way, and include Adam G's mathematic
> assistance about curved space, you just *MIGHT* be able to pull it off ;-P

I still think there would be some practical problems...

Nah :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
"The only mechanoids ever issued with genetalia were those serving
aboard Italian starships" --Kryten, Red Dwarf VIII
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

From:	Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject:	Boats & Living Amenities
Date:	Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:02:18 -0500 (EST)

Message no. 15 On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Dave Post wrote:

> Imagine your typical bedroom in a one bedroom, small apartment.....then
> imagine fitting 16 people in that room. Welcome to the US Navy treating
> the US Marine Corps to it's finest accommodations.

Rest assured, the middies crewing the tub don't get much better.
At least they typically have less gear and shit to stow.

Marc

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