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Message no. 1
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Body armor, Again
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:51:50 -0700
Ok, I don't mean to start another thread like the last one that ensued when
someone asked about Body Armor, but here goes.

There were a lot of references to wearing multiple layers of armor to help
against damage. BUT, in the SSC (revised for SR2) that I have on the page
with the FFBA, it says that is NOT usable with any other form of Body Armor.

Now, if you guys were referring to a House Rule that ignores this and I
missed it during the general mayhem that ensued, I apologize.

If not, can anyone clear this up?

MoonShadow
hernandez@********.com
ICQ 3220365
May the god, goddess, or deity of your choice bless,
curse, or completely ignore you, as per your wishes
Message no. 2
From: lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:26:03 -0600
Hernandez wrote:

> Ok, I don't mean to start another thread like the last one that ensued =
when
> someone asked about Body Armor, but here goes.
>
> There were a lot of references to wearing multiple layers of armor to =
help
> against damage. BUT, in the SSC (revised for SR2) that I have on the =
page
> with the FFBA, it says that is NOT usable with any other form of Body =
Armor.
>
> Now, if you guys were referring to a House Rule that ignores this and =
I
> missed it during the general mayhem that ensued, I apologize.
>
> If not, can anyone clear this up?

Check out the 'armor layering rule' on page 94 of NAGRL.
It's right there. Hope that helps.....


Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'
Message no. 3
From: Craig J Wilhelm Jr <craigjwjr@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:44:03 -0500
Hernandez wrote:
> There were a lot of references to wearing multiple layers of armor to help
> against damage. BUT, in the SSC (revised for SR2) that I have on the page
> with the FFBA, it says that is NOT usable with any other form of Body Armor.
>
> Now, if you guys were referring to a House Rule that ignores this and I
> missed it during the general mayhem that ensued, I apologize.
>
> If not, can anyone clear this up?

Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life, page 94. To avoid outright plagiarism,
I'll paraphrase.
Basically it says add 1/2 the rating of the lowest rating armor to the
highest rating armor to get the total armor value.
But keep in mind bulk. Remember that for every point of ballistic armor
over your quickness, subtract 1 from you combat pool. Example: an armored
jacket (5/3) on top of form fitting level 3 (4/1) you'd get an armor rating
of 7/3, but if you have a quickness of 4, the ballistic armor would
subtract 3 from your combat pool.

P E A C E !
--
Craig J Wilhelm Jr

Life's just one damned thing after another.
Afterlife RPG Page
http://home.earthlink.net/~craigjwjr/arpgp/
I-Chat Username: craigjwjr
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Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:46:15 +0100
Craig J Wilhelm Jr said on 23:44/17 Nov 97...

> Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life, page 94. To avoid outright plagiarism,
> I'll paraphrase.
> Basically it says add 1/2 the rating of the lowest rating armor to the
> highest rating armor to get the total armor value.
> But keep in mind bulk. Remember that for every point of ballistic armor
> over your quickness, subtract 1 from you combat pool. Example: an armored
> jacket (5/3) on top of form fitting level 3 (4/1) you'd get an armor rating
> of 7/3, but if you have a quickness of 4, the ballistic armor would
> subtract 3 from your combat pool.

That rule only applies to heavy armor -- i.e. the "partial heavy" and
"full suit" armors in the back of SRII, and by extension also the security
and military armors from the SSC and FoF. When wearing or layering normal
armor, the Combat Pool reduction does not apply if you play by standard
SRII rules.

As a house rule, though, it's quite common to apply the CP reduction at
least when layering armor.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 5
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:14:16 +0000
And verily, did Hernandez hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Ok, I don't mean to start another thread like the last one that ensued when
|someone asked about Body Armor, but here goes.
|
|There were a lot of references to wearing multiple layers of armor to help
|against damage. BUT, in the SSC (revised for SR2) that I have on the page
|with the FFBA, it says that is NOT usable with any other form of Body Armor.
|
|Now, if you guys were referring to a House Rule that ignores this and I
|missed it during the general mayhem that ensued, I apologize.

I think the rules for multi-layered armour is in Fields of Fire...
(Not that I've got it)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 6
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:59:18 +0000
On 18 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:
<snip>
> That rule only applies to heavy armor -- i.e. the "partial heavy"
> and "full suit" armors in the back of SRII, and by extension also
> the security and military armors from the SSC and FoF. When wearing
> or layering normal armor, the Combat Pool reduction does not apply
> if you play by standard SRII rules.

Errr... My SSC 2nd ed does NOT state security armour reduces Combat
Pool. That's why I though a gel-pac security armour would be neat,
even if it's more expensive and harder to get than light milspec...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Say it with flowers - give her a triffid!
Message no. 7
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 11:42:07 PST
>> That rule only applies to heavy armor -- i.e. the "partial heavy"
>> and "full suit" armors in the back of SRII, and by extension also
>> the security and military armors from the SSC and FoF. When wearing
>> or layering normal armor, the Combat Pool reduction does not apply
>> if you play by standard SRII rules.
>
>Errr... My SSC 2nd ed does NOT state security armour reduces Combat
>Pool. That's why I though a gel-pac security armour would be neat,
>even if it's more expensive and harder to get than light milspec...

Also, Military armor reduces combat pool only one for every TWO balistic
armor beyond your quickness. In most cases, the barrier effect is well
worth it for the combat pool lost. Especially as, pre-R2, being
"hardened armor", it added half its level to body dice rolled. Gell PaK
has the extreme disadvantage that it DEGRADES everytime it is
penetrated. Although that won't be as often with heavy security....


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Message no. 8
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:52:13 +0000
On 18 Nov 97, Mon goose disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> >Errr... My SSC 2nd ed does NOT state security armour reduces Combat
> >Pool. That's why I though a gel-pac security armour would be neat,
> >even if it's more expensive and harder to get than light milspec...
>
> Also, Military armor reduces combat pool only one for every TWO
> balistic armor beyond your quickness. In most cases, the barrier
> effect is well worth it for the combat pool lost. Especially as,
> pre-R2, being "hardened armor", it added half its level to body dice

Uh? I think you're having it wrong. Only vehicles add half their
armour to body dice. Milspec armour is not vehicular, it's only
hardened... (Still kicks ass, though - HVARs won't bother ya, so all
those Sentrys can't do you squat...)

> rolled. Gell PaK has the extreme disadvantage that it DEGRADES
> everytime it is penetrated. Although that won't be as often with
> heavy security....

And is so hard to get, you're better off getting military armour...
Unless you'd like a gel-packed secure jacket, or long coat, and
what's the point in that?

BTW: If you have a gel-packed armour on the outside, and layer it
with another armour, is it hardened at only the gel-packed armour
level, or at the total level? IMHO the first case is true, but I'm
not sure... And what about bone lacing? And helmets?


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
I can't decide between EDLIN and Word for Windows 7......
Message no. 9
From: Hernandez <hernandez@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:16:18 -0700
Ok, I see it doesn't take much to send you guys off on tangents. =)

My question was:

Someone said you can wear FFBA with whatever, just use the layered
armor rules.
BUT, in the SSC for SR2 that I have, it says in the FFBA entry that you
CANNOT use
FFBA with any other kind of armor. Is it a typo in my book, or are we
just ignoring it?

I thought it was a pretty simple question with an equally simply answer, so
I thought. ;)


MoonShadow
Message no. 10
From: Fredrik Lindblom <fredrik.lindblom@******.KALMAR.SE>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:41:14 +0100
At 21:16 1997-11-18 -0700, you wrote:
> BUT, in the SSC for SR2 that I have, it says in the FFBA entry that you
>CANNOT use
> FFBA with any other kind of armor. Is it a typo in my book, or are we
>just ignoring it?

The rules in NAGRL are newer, therefore most people give them priority over
SSC. You could interpret the NAGRL rules as only applying to clothing-style
armor (i.e. Houndstooth package, etc.) in combination with regular armor
(i.e. armor jacket etc.) if you want.

Armor jacket over formfitting plus forearm guards and sometimes a helmet
gets kinda common otherwise... Then you add bone lacing and orthoskin
underneath.

That's when the NPCs set their guns to FA...

/FL
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:36 +0100
Spike said on 12:14/18 Nov 97...

> I think the rules for multi-layered armour is in Fields of Fire...
> (Not that I've got it)

It's in the Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Real Life, somewhere in the last
chapter, that has the game rules for the things discussed earlier in the
book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 12
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100
Hernandez said on 21:16/18 Nov 97...

> Someone said you can wear FFBA with whatever, just use the layered
> armor rules.
> BUT, in the SSC for SR2 that I have, it says in the FFBA entry that you
> CANNOT use
> FFBA with any other kind of armor. Is it a typo in my book, or are we
> just ignoring it?

It does say that, but IMHO it doesn't make much sense, especially not with
the layering armor rules from the NAGRL. That line about it not being
compatible with other armor dates from SR1, and is probably there because
without it players would wonder what the armor rating is if the FFBA is
worn with other armor, as is easily possible. The NAGRL introduced
rules for layering armor, and because the 2nd edition SSC looks like it
only upgraded the game stats, I think somebody missed that line in the
FFBA section.

At any rate, as a house rule I allow layering of FFBA with just about
anything.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 21:52/18 Nov 97...

> BTW: If you have a gel-packed armour on the outside, and layer it
> with another armour, is it hardened at only the gel-packed armour
> level, or at the total level? IMHO the first case is true, but I'm
> not sure... And what about bone lacing? And helmets?

I'd say only the gel pack armor counts as hardened. For example,
when wearing armor clothing (3/0) under a gel pack armor jacket (5/3
hardened), the total amor ratings are 6/3, but only attacks with a Power
Level of 5 or less bounce off.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 14
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:52:37 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 19:59/18 Nov 97...

> > That rule only applies to heavy armor -- i.e. the "partial heavy"
> > and "full suit" armors in the back of SRII, and by extension also
> > the security and military armors from the SSC and FoF. When wearing
> > or layering normal armor, the Combat Pool reduction does not apply
> > if you play by standard SRII rules.
>
> Errr... My SSC 2nd ed does NOT state security armour reduces Combat
> Pool.

Neither does mine, but I have a first edition copy and that rule didn't
exist there yet :) However, if the Combat Pool reduction applies to heavy
armors, I don't see why it shouldn't apply to security armors, which are
very similar IMHO.

As for the lower CP reduction from military armor, I think that's because
if the normal 1:1 reduction would apply, nobody would have any Combat Pool
left when wearing milspec armor.

> That's why I though a gel-pac security armour would be neat, even if
> it's more expensive and harder to get than light milspec...

It still is neat, because adding gel packs hardens the armor and allows
it to bounce rounds off of it rather than only reducing their Power Level.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
The future. Available tomorrow.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 15
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:48:03 +0000
On 19 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 19:59/18 Nov 97...
>
> > > That rule only applies to heavy armor -- i.e. the "partial heavy"
> > > and "full suit" armors in the back of SRII, and by extension also
> > > the security and military armors from the SSC and FoF. When wearing
> > > or layering normal armor, the Combat Pool reduction does not apply
> > > if you play by standard SRII rules.
> >
> > Errr... My SSC 2nd ed does NOT state security armour reduces Combat
> > Pool.
>
> Neither does mine, but I have a first edition copy and that rule
> didn't exist there yet :) However, if the Combat Pool reduction
> applies to heavy armors, I don't see why it shouldn't apply to
> security armors, which are very similar IMHO.

Well, they do look lighter than milspec or heavy armor.

And please compare the stats for Gel-packed security armor with
appriopriate military armor.

Light Security Armor 6/4 37,500¥ 24/40 days 4
Light Military Armor 10/7 25,500¥ 18/1 month 2

Medium Security Armor 6/5 45,000¥ 28/40 days 5
Medium Military Armor 12/8 45,000¥ 24/1 month 2.5

Heavy Security Armor 7/5 60,000¥ 32/56 days 6
Heavy Military Armor 14/9 70,000¥ 28/1.5 month 3

Security Helmet 1/2 2.0 1250¥ 24/28 days 4
Military Helmet 2/3 3.0 2,500¥ 24/1 month 2

As you see, Milspec is not only easier to get and cheaper on the
streets, it's usually cheaper (with the exception of Helmet and
Heavy), more effective and has the "2 for 1" reduction rule...

So if Security Armor DOES have penalties, it sucks, and nobody would
get it, as long as the rules are not changed. Granted, the GM is the
G.O.D., and can rule what he wants, but as the rules are written
you're better off buing milspec.

BTW: The SSC errata in BBB also doesn't meniton CP penalties...

> > That's why I though a gel-pac security armour would be neat, even if
> > it's more expensive and harder to get than light milspec...
>
> It still is neat, because adding gel packs hardens the armor and
> allows it to bounce rounds off of it rather than only reducing their
> Power Level.

Yeah, but on the streets, you can get military armor cheaper,
easier and faster. Makes sense? Thought so. <grin>

<snip>

> The future. Available tomorrow.

LOL. Great one.

Also, on 19 Nov 97, Gurth disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

<snip gel-pack armour and bone lacing question>

> I'd say only the gel pack armor counts as hardened. For example,
> when wearing armor clothing (3/0) under a gel pack armor jacket (5/3
> hardened), the total amor ratings are 6/3, but only attacks with a
> Power Level of 5 or less bounce off.

Yes, that's what I'd say, too. Hmmm. That makes gel-pak practical only
if you either gel-pac security armor (see above) or partial/heavy
armor (yeah, right), or if you gel-pak both armors when layering.
'cause hardened ballistic 5 is going to help only against light
pistols... And the point is getting immune to - at least - HVARs, with
power 6... ;>


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bea=
r/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)=
/House Scholae Palatinae
My Turbo Light is on, but nobody is home.
Message no. 16
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:02:20 +0000
On 17 Nov 97 at 19:51, Hernandez wrote:
[snip]
> There were a lot of references to wearing multiple layers of armor
> to help against damage. BUT, in the SSC (revised for SR2) that I
> have on the page with the FFBA, it says that is NOT usable with any
> other form of Body Armor.
> Now, if you guys were referring to a House Rule that ignores this
> and I missed it during the general mayhem that ensued, I apologize.
> If not, can anyone clear this up?
What about Neo Anarchists' Guide to Real Life, p. 94: "LAYERING ARMOR
It is possible to layer armor, but even layered armor has limited
effect. When layering armor, add the rating of the highest-rated piece
to one-half (round down) the rating of the next highest-rated piece of
clothing or armor to determine the effective combined value. Generally,
only a jacket or coat can be layered over clothing-style armor."

Just saw your reply:
On 18 Nov 97 at 21:16, Hernandez wrote:
> My question was:
> Someone said you can wear FFBA with whatever, just use the layered
> armor rules. BUT, in the SSC for SR2 that I have, it says in the FFBA
> entry that you CANNOT use FFBA with any other kind of armor. Is it a
> typo in my book, or are we just ignoring it?
Hm. As SSC was printed before NAGRL, and then reworked mainly by
blacking out a few pages, and adjusting the damage codes (and ammo
numbers, I think), I would suppose that rule is obsolete.

> I thought it was a pretty simple question with an equally simply
> answer, so I thought. ;)
Simple question? Easy answer? Here??? Hah!
Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | 'Real stupidity |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| beats artificial |
| \___ __/ | | intelligence every |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | time.' |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | - M. Ridcully |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary ----(T.Pratchett)+
Message no. 17
From: Rune Fostervoll <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:17:51 +0100
If this helps any... :

Layering Armor:(SSC,FoF)
Layering armor is an optional rule.
It states that you may add half of the weakest armor`s value to the heaviest.

House rules on layering armor:
Layered armor suffers the same penalties as security armor.

Security Armor:(BBB,SSC)
Security armor is defined as heavy armor. It consists of partial and full
armor. Both include helmets. Both may be envirosealed.

Heavy armor penalty:
Subtract quickness from the armor`s ballistic rating. Each point left above
zero reduces combat pool by one.

House rules on security armor:
1: Currently, if layering armor is permitted, then an armor jacket and lined
coat gives better armor than a partial suit. THus, consider security armor
ratings without helmet, so that helmets increase their ratings further.

2: Security armor may not be layered.

Military Armor:(FoF)
Military armor is heavy, hardened armors. Their values are significantly higher
than security armor, and almost impossible to get hold of.

Military armor penalty:
Subtract quickness from the armor`s ballistic rating. For every two points
left above zero, subtract one from combat pool.
Message no. 18
From: Robert Blackberg III <blackbrc@***.FISERV.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:21:24 -0500
<Snip>

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@friko.onet.pl;
<Snip>

> Say it with flowers - give her a triffid!

I LOVE this reference!
Message no. 19
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:36:02 PST
> BUT, in the SSC for SR2 that I have, it says in the FFBA entry that
you
>CANNOT use
> FFBA with any other kind of armor. Is it a typo in my book, or are
we
>just ignoring it?

It says you cannot wear FFBA with any other form of BODY ARMOR. "Body
armor", in our camapign, means heavy armor, security armor, military
armor- the "real" armor that comes in a more or less full coverage suit.
Armor clothing, including leathers and all the jackets et al are NOT
"body armor". WHY? Partly beacuse thay have no legal enforcement
status (in SR) as such, while full suits do.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

get sucked into -The Vortex- Chicago's shadowland BBS
http://www.concentric.net/~evamarie/srmain.htm


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Message no. 20
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:48:34 PST
>I'd say only the gel pack armor counts as hardened. For example,
>when wearing armor clothing (3/0) under a gel pack armor jacket (5/3
>hardened), the total amor ratings are 6/3, but only attacks with a
Power
>Level of 5 or less bounce off.

This also solves the thornier problem of what happens if you wear gel
pack FFBA under a normal armored jacket.

It had seemed to me you would reduce thepower by 5 and than see if the
shot was stoppedby the 4 gel pack, but that breaks the layering rules
hienously. Reducing the power by the normal amount (7) and then seing
if it is stoped also gives extra protection. But just letting the
gelPack do its normal job (stop everyting with power <= 4/1), and
appling normal armor, seems most reasonable. It makes figuring bonuses
from cyber and bio easier as well.



(BTW, hernandez, the FFBA under the jacketis ok because the jacket is
armored clothing, not body armor- the FFBA restrication aplies only to
other body armor.)

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

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Message no. 21
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:17:30 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 13:48/19 Nov 97...

[consumer guide snipped]
> BTW: The SSC errata in BBB also doesn't meniton CP penalties...

I know that, but as I said before, I view them as being in the same class
as heavy armors (from SRII) and so subject to the CP reduction rule.

> > It still is neat, because adding gel packs hardens the armor and
> > allows it to bounce rounds off of it rather than only reducing their
> > Power Level.
>
> Yeah, but on the streets, you can get military armor cheaper,
> easier and faster. Makes sense? Thought so. <grin>

Maybe that's because gel packs are really hard to find on the street?
Standard security armor is easier to get than milspec armor, and adding
gel packs to them doesn't _really_ help all that much except to the heavy
security armor (also see below).

> > The future. Available tomorrow.
>
> LOL. Great one.

A variant on an AOL slogan :)

> Yes, that's what I'd say, too. Hmmm. That makes gel-pak practical only
> if you either gel-pac security armor (see above) or partial/heavy
> armor (yeah, right), or if you gel-pak both armors when layering.
> 'cause hardened ballistic 5 is going to help only against light
> pistols... And the point is getting immune to - at least - HVARs, with
> power 6... ;>

You'll need an armor rating of 6 with gel packs to bounce light pistol
rounds. In essence, unless you plan to go up against hold-outs a lot,
adding gel packs to armor lighter than security armor is a waste of time
and money. You need at least a heavy security armor plus helmet (both
with gel packs) to stand up to most common weapons (light pistols, SMGs,
assault rifles), while some will _still_ give you trouble (shotguns, heavy
pistols). For that reason, I would leave it alone unless I've got
seriously too much money to spend.

--
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Message no. 22
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:49:58 PST
>> Also, Military armor reduces combat pool only one for every TWO
>> balistic armor beyond your quickness. In most cases, the barrier
>> effect is well worth it for the combat pool lost. Especially as,
>> pre-R2, being "hardened armor", it added half its level to body dice
>
>Uh? I think you're having it wrong. Only vehicles add half their
>armour to body dice. Milspec armour is not vehicular, it's only
>hardened... (Still kicks ass, though - HVARs won't bother ya, so all
>those Sentrys can't do you squat...)

"only hardened"?! rotfl.

The only "hardened" armor I've seen is the critter power, which acts
exactly like vehicle armor. Iv'e allowed that to grant extra dice,
whicis an effectofthearmor, not the vehicle.. The military armor
description says "Treat military grade armorad harnedend". So I say
military works exactly like vehicle armor, including adding dice. Makes
no difference now that R2 is out, except that A-V weapons will open yer
"can" but rudely.

Actually, a major gripe I have with SR's damage systemis that armor does
very little if you don't have damage resistance dice to back it up. I'd
expect somebody in heavy armor to be hard to hurt, even if they were a
paralized octagenarian. Instead, thier armor reduces my weapons power
to 2, but does nothing vs. its actual lethality (2D will still kill
anybody rolling only one die. It gets worse when resisting shots with
lots of succeses backing them up).
Not that weapons shouldn't be lethal, but as it is, a troll in armor is
MUCH safer than a kid in armor. Don't both armors STOP bullets?

I realisethe system is abstract, buthaving an armored jacketbe just as
good against a medium pistol as heavy security armor is DUMB, and only
giving bonuses if you reduce the power below 2 just peaves me somehow.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

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Message no. 23
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:47:25 -0500
At 01:49 PM 11/19/97 PST, you wrote:
>Actually, a major gripe I have with SR's damage systemis that armor does
>very little if you don't have damage resistance dice to back it up. I'd
>expect somebody in heavy armor to be hard to hurt, even if they were a
>paralized octagenarian. Instead, thier armor reduces my weapons power
>to 2, but does nothing vs. its actual lethality (2D will still kill
>anybody rolling only one die. It gets worse when resisting shots with
>lots of succeses backing them up).
>Not that weapons shouldn't be lethal, but as it is, a troll in armor is
>MUCH safer than a kid in armor. Don't both armors STOP bullets?
>
>I realisethe system is abstract, buthaving an armored jacketbe just as
>good against a medium pistol as heavy security armor is DUMB, and only
>giving bonuses if you reduce the power below 2 just peaves me somehow.

I agree, that's the one thing that made SR1's auto successes for armor seem
more reasonable, it actually reduced damage instead of just making the
damage resistance test easier. Perhaps a mix of the two, without the auto
successes:

1) armor reduces Power level of attacks as in sr2
2) armor also grants a few extra dice to augment the body test to resist
damage

But I'll admit I don't really care for the extent to which SR allows a high
Body stat to resist damage from weapons very effective at killing human
beings. How much less damage does a strong, athletic person take from a
pistol round or a sword thrust? Is it as much as the difference in SR game
terms?

losthalo
losthalo@********.comGoFa6)7(Im6TJt)Fe(7P!ShMoB4/19.2Bk!cBkc8MBV6sM3ZG
oPuTeiClbMehC6a23=n4bSSH173g4L??96FmT1Ea4@*********************
4h7sM8zSsYnk6BSMmpFNN0393NHfsSLusOH5Whileyouarelisteningyourwillingat
tentionismakingyoumoreandmoreintothepersonyouwanttobecome.
Message no. 24
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:52:45 +0000
On 19 Nov 97, losthalo disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

> At 01:49 PM 11/19/97 PST, you wrote:
<snip>
> >I realisethe system is abstract, buthaving an armored jacketbe just as
> >good against a medium pistol as heavy security armor is DUMB, and only
> >giving bonuses if you reduce the power below 2 just peaves me somehow.

> I agree, that's the one thing that made SR1's auto successes for
> armor seem more reasonable, it actually reduced damage instead of
> just making the damage resistance test easier. Perhaps a mix of the
> two, without the auto successes:
>
> 1) armor reduces Power level of attacks as in sr2
> 2) armor also grants a few extra dice to augment the body test to
> resist damage

Yes, I think it could be a good idea. Maybe the armour would add (1/2
rating, rounding up or down...) dice for resistance test. Or maybe
(Impact dice) against ballistic... But the problem is that it would
give too much dice to roll, so... (read below)

> But I'll admit I don't really care for the extent to which SR allows
> a high Body stat to resist damage from weapons very effective at
> killing human beings. How much less damage does a strong, athletic
> person take from a pistol round or a sword thrust? Is it as much as
> the difference in SR game terms?

Yes. So maybe make it rolling 1/2 Body against weapons (rounding
down)? And the rest comes from armour?
So, somebody with Body 6 and trenchcoat would roll 3+2 dice.
Somebody with Body 2 and jacket/FFBA 3 combo would roll 1+3 dice.

That would lower the difference between Body 4 and Body 12 a bit...


Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike; FIAWOL
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (SS) (PC) (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae
Palatinae
Do not bend, fold, staple or mutilate in any way this tagline.
Message no. 25
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:10:43 PST
>But I'll admit I don't really care for the extent to which SR allows a
high
>Body stat to resist damage from weapons very effective at killing human
>beings. How much less damage does a strong, athletic person take from
a
>pistol round or a sword thrust? Is it as much as the difference in SR
game
>terms?

A strong, athletic person actually CAN function much better despite
wounds, and has a better chance of surviving them to recover. But yes,
the actual trauma is similar and will take similar amounts of time to
recover.

Troll type damage resistance is better understood not bylooking at what
it takes to kill a humanbut instead a gorilla, bull, or other very large
animal. It IS considerably harder than killing a man.

Weapon powers generally reflectthe fact that unarmored persons take the
full dmamge from guns, etc. Some of the lower powered wepons are too
easyto resist without armor, but then again, most bruisers CAN shrug off
a few punches or limb hits from .22 holdouts.

Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

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Message no. 26
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:26:19 -0500
At 12:10 PM 11/20/97 PST, you wrote:
>A strong, athletic person actually CAN function much better despite
>wounds, and has a better chance of surviving them to recover. But yes,
>the actual trauma is similar and will take similar amounts of time to
>recover.
>
>Troll type damage resistance is better understood not bylooking at what
>it takes to kill a humanbut instead a gorilla, bull, or other very large
>animal. It IS considerably harder than killing a man.

I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about the difference in
body between a troll and a human. I'm talking the variation in survival
rate in, say, a Body 2 person and a Body 5 person. BIG difference in how
much damage they'll take from the same attack, yes? Doesn't really take
into account the idea that a serious pistol round like a .357 mag will kill
either with about the same likelihood. Now, certainly, the troll with a
multiple of the body mass of either, much thicker bones, will take more to
hurt him; the .357mag is more like a .32 round to him.

>Weapon powers generally reflectthe fact that unarmored persons take the
>full dmamge from guns, etc. Some of the lower powered wepons are too
>easyto resist without armor, but then again, most bruisers CAN shrug off
>a few punches or limb hits from .22 holdouts.

And that does make sense. I just think the difference in damage resistance
against serious weapons is too high. Back to SR's 'cinematic' bent, I'm
afraid.

losthalo, who should prolly just adapt CP's rules or modify SR to the
'realism' he wants :)
Message no. 27
From: Mon goose <landsquid@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:05:13 PST
>I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about the difference in
>body between a troll and a human. I'm talking the variation in
survival
>rate in, say, a Body 2 person and a Body 5 person. BIG difference in
how
>much damage they'll take from the same attack, yes?

Well, thats the difference between a child and a large, healthy adult.
I'd saythere WOULD be a substantial difference. And actually, if they
are facing a HP withno armor, niether will get a signifigant number of
succeses from body.

>>Weapon powers generally reflectthe fact that unarmored persons take
the
>>full dmamge from guns, etc. Some of the lower powered wepons are too
>>easyto resist without armor, but then again, most bruisers CAN shrug
off
>>a few punches or limb hits from .22 holdouts.
>
>And that does make sense. I just think the difference in damage
resistance against serious weapons is too high. Back to SR's
'cinematic' bent, I'm afraid.

Really? I always thought it was to LOW- all the body in the world does
a character no good if the power/ TN is 12! Actually, having high body
is very nice becuase cumulative overflow or (optional) over damage won't
kill you right off, but the wound itself is considered pretty much the
same, and is likely top be just as severe. Realistic or not, I don't
know. I assume a really big gun does more or less lethal damage to any
living target, so I guess its good, but "sliverguns" never struck me as
the kind of thing to take down a grizzly, which they do in SR nicely.


Mongoose / Technological progress is like an ax in the hands
of a psychotic - Einstein

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Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Body armor, Again
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:18:36 +0100
losthalo said on 16:26/20 Nov 97...

> I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about the difference in
> body between a troll and a human. I'm talking the variation in survival
> rate in, say, a Body 2 person and a Body 5 person. BIG difference in how
> much damage they'll take from the same attack, yes? Doesn't really take
> into account the idea that a serious pistol round like a .357 mag will kill
> either with about the same likelihood. Now, certainly, the troll with a
> multiple of the body mass of either, much thicker bones, will take more to
> hurt him; the .357mag is more like a .32 round to him.

Maybe a way to do this is to alter the Staging number. Currently, it's 2:
every two successes in- or decrease the Damage Level by one. Setting it at
3, for example, makes damage a lot more even across Body ratings while
still giving everyone a chance to stage it up and down.

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