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Message no. 1
From: Geoffrey Thureson u <thur9300@*****.WLU.CA>
Subject: Bone lacing question
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 01:01:48 -0400
OK Folks, I've got a question that perhaps somebody out there can clear
up for me. A character of mine in a buddies campaign unfortunately had
his brains shot out the top of his head from close range (barrel being
under his chin). He lived, barely, and spent about 55 days in hospital.
We assumed that some of this time was spent doing reconstructive skull
surgery. My idea was, that while they were doing it, implant titanium
bone lacing in the skull only. The argument raged back and forth whether
one could get localized bone lacing, and what the essence cost would be.

So, would titanium bone lacing in just the skull be possible, and what
would the essence cost be?

PS: I wanted to get it so I could do physical damage with my 6 dice in
Head Butt. (specialization) =)


Anyway, thanks in advance:

Geoff Thureson
Play the Shadowrun Mush:yacht.slip.andrew.cmu.edu 4201
Message no. 2
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 23:28:09 -0600
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Geoffrey Thureson u wrote:
> [deleted]
> surgery. My idea was, that while they were doing it, implant titanium
> bone lacing in the skull only. The argument raged back and forth whether
> one could get localized bone lacing, and what the essence cost would be.
>
> So, would titanium bone lacing in just the skull be possible, and what
> would the essence cost be?

It would certainly be possible, from a physical perspective. I don't
know about bone lacing at all, so I can't be of much help here.

> PS: I wanted to get it so I could do physical damage with my 6 dice in
> Head Butt. (specialization) =)

I can help you here. No Phys damage, because titanium wouldn't
significantly alter the weight of your skull.

John IV
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 15:38:20 +0000
Geoff writes:

> A character of mine in a buddies campaign unfortunately had his brains shot
> out the top of his head from close range (barrel being under his chin). He
> lived, barely, and spent about 55 days in hospital.

He lived? How many points of intelligence/willpower did he lose? :-)

> We assumed that some of this time was spent doing reconstructive skull
> surgery. My idea was, that while they were doing it, implant titanium
> bone lacing in the skull only. The argument raged back and forth whether
> one could get localized bone lacing, and what the essence cost would be.

According to the SR rules, no. I asked a similar question a while back, about
the essense cost etc. for bone lacing a character with two cyberlimbs. Well,
really it was about enhanced articulation and cyber limbs, but the thread
digressed a little (pretty strange eh? :-)). Anyway, besides the "no - the
rules say so" responses, the concensus was that each limb would count for about
10-15% (we agreed on 10, but I lean toward 15 myself) of the bone lacing. That
would be 10% of the essense and the cost. A head, by this precedent, would be
about 5-10% of the essense and cost. I would make it nasty surgery though, as
operating on a skull is a little different to an arm.

> So, would titanium bone lacing in just the skull be possible, and what
> would the essence cost be?

Sure, it would be possible as long as your GM is willing to make a house
ruling on the matter. But if you follow the Ivy "BTB" trend, then no - bad
luck.

> PS: I wanted to get it so I could do physical damage with my 6 dice in
> Head Butt. (specialization) =)

Cool. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 15:46:54 +0000
John IV writes:

> On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Geoffrey Thureson u wrote:
> > PS: I wanted to get it so I could do physical damage with my 6 dice in
> > Head Butt. (specialization) =)
>
> I can help you here. No Phys damage, because titanium wouldn't
> significantly alter the weight of your skull.

Someone told be the other day that while titanium is incredibly strong it
is very ductile and malleable. Like it can resist a shockwave easily, by
bending, and likewise a bullet, but if you punched it, then it was likely to
wrap around your hand. Is this true? It could be just for pure titanium,
the things constructed out of "titanium" are probably alloys rather than pure.

Anyway, as for headbutting someone with a titanium head, assuming the titanium
does _not_ do what I just asked about (i.e. it acts like steel but harder),
then I would say it would do damage. Like the book says "hitting a guy with
bone lacing is only slightly less painful than hitting a wall made out of
whatever he is laced with". That is the reason people use things like brass
knuckles. By the rules, the lacing changes you stun damage punch into a
physical damage punch, and if you have metal lacing (aluminium or titanium),
then you get a +1 or +2 power bonus too.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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Message no. 5
From: John Moeller <John.Moeller@*.CC.UTAH.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 12:46:59 -0600
On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Damion Milliken wrote:
> John IV writes:
> > On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Geoffrey Thureson u wrote:
> > > PS: I wanted to get it so I could do physical damage with my 6 dice in
> > > Head Butt. (specialization) =)
> > I can help you here. No Phys damage, because titanium wouldn't
> > significantly alter the weight of your skull.
>
> Someone told be the other day that while titanium is incredibly strong it
> is very ductile and malleable. Like it can resist a shockwave easily, by
> bending, and likewise a bullet, but if you punched it, then it was likely to
> wrap around your hand. Is this true? It could be just for pure titanium,
> the things constructed out of "titanium" are probably alloys rather than
pure.

Well, that's not entirely true. Not all metals are ductile or
malleable. Anyway, in the real world here, they actually use titanium
reinforcements in bones to strengthen them if they've been weakened.
That wouldn't do any good if the titanium bends more easily than the bone
breaks.

Anyway, I don't know how the bone is "laced," so there are too many
variables to say either way.

> Anyway, as for headbutting someone with a titanium head, assuming the titanium
> does _not_ do what I just asked about (i.e. it acts like steel but harder),
> then I would say it would do damage. Like the book says "hitting a guy with
> bone lacing is only slightly less painful than hitting a wall made out of
> whatever he is laced with". That is the reason people use things like brass
> knuckles. By the rules, the lacing changes you stun damage punch into a
> physical damage punch, and if you have metal lacing (aluminium or titanium),
> then you get a +1 or +2 power bonus too.

True, but this is the other way around. (I'm not going to argue with the
rules, but just for arguing's sake.) You don't generally fracture your
skull when you do a head-butt (that's why you do it with the top of your
forehead, the hardest place on the body), so if you had bone lacing, it
would just decrease the chances even more of fracturing your skull.

As I said in my earlier message, I don't know anything about bone
lacing. If it's just to strengthen the skeletal system, then I stick to
my point. If it's just to give the limbs more momentum, then I retract.

I would also kind of like the stats and description for bone lacing,
since I don't have ShadowTech.

John IV
Message no. 6
From: Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 14:37:19 -0500
Interestingly enough, titanium crumples (it gets ridges like a potato chip) at
high temperatures. This was a problem with the SR-71 before they installed
grooves and went to a slightly alloyed frame.
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetche@****.UCDAVIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 11:43:24 -0700
From some Air Force studies on bicyclists and aerodynamics, it
was determined that on average, the legs account for 1/3 the mass of the
body, and that the thighs (hip to knee) account for 1/6.
Being the Air Force, they got the data by (yup) weighing a bunch
of corpses, slicing them up and weighing the parts individually. And
repeating for a statistical sample.
Good thing they drape a flag over the coffin.
(Evil grin)

P.S. By the way, I've read the head is 20% of the body mass but that
sounds a bit high. Any confirmations/denials?

+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
|Adam Getchell|acgetche@****.engr.ucdavis.edu | ez000270@*******.ucdavis.edu |
| acgetchell |"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent"|
+-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 16:57:21 +0000
Adam writes:

> From some Air Force studies on bicyclists and aerodynamics, it
> was determined that on average, the legs account for 1/3 the mass of the
> body, and that the thighs (hip to knee) account for 1/6.

Any similar stats for the bones?

> Being the Air Force, they got the data by (yup) weighing a bunch
> of corpses, slicing them up and weighing the parts individually. And
> repeating for a statistical sample.

Ugh - effective though.

> P.S. By the way, I've read the head is 20% of the body mass but that
> sounds a bit high. Any confirmations/denials?

I would think it is a bit high too. If both legs account for 33%, then the
head wouldn't be 20%.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 22:22:12 +0000
John IV writes:

> Well, that's not entirely true. Not all metals are ductile or
> malleable. Anyway, in the real world here, they actually use titanium
> reinforcements in bones to strengthen them if they've been weakened.
> That wouldn't do any good if the titanium bends more easily than the bone
> breaks.

Yeah, true, but if it is true, then I would say the "titanium" we know is
really an alloy, rather than the pure thing.

> True, but this is the other way around. (I'm not going to argue with the
> rules, but just for arguing's sake.)

What other reason do we need? :-)

> You don't generally fracture your skull when you do a head-butt (that's why
> you do it with the top of your forehead, the hardest place on the body), so
> if you had bone lacing, it would just decrease the chances even more of
> fracturing your skull.
>
> As I said in my earlier message, I don't know anything about bone
> lacing. If it's just to strengthen the skeletal system, then I stick to
> my point. If it's just to give the limbs more momentum, then I retract.

Well, I don't really see what the momentum would have to do with it. If I hit
you with a foam rubber stick, it hurts a lot less than if I hit you with a
cast iron one. A similar principle applies with bone lacing, if you make the
bones harder, then it will do more damage when you hit.

> I would also kind of like the stats and description for bone lacing,
> since I don't have ShadowTech.

Well, you asked for it:

BONE LACING

Bone lacing is a lenthy amd expensive process in which the cellular structure
of the subject's bones is augmented with lattice chains of reinforcing plastics
and metals to improve the bone's integrity and tensile strength. There is some
weight gain; weight added this way counts toward calaculated encumberance
(pastic, +5kg; aluminium, +10kg; titanium, +15kg). Along with plastic
derivatives, aluminium and titanium are the only metals that have proved
suitable for the procedure to date (with titanium obviously being the more
expensive). Plastic or aluminium lacing adds +1 to the character's Body
Attribute; titanium adds +2. Aluminium lacing also gives one level of impact
armor, while titanium lacing adds one level of impact armor plus an additional
level of ballistic protection. Armor gained in this fashion is cumulative with
worn armor.

Unarmed blows by persons with plastic bone lacing are at (Str +1)M2, (St +2)M2
for aluminium, and (Str +3)M2 for titanium. Lacing makes bones virtually
unbreakable by conventional standards; laced bones can still be broken if a
large enough deliberate force is applied. The Barrier Rating for plastic is 6,
for aluminium 8, and for titanium it is 10. Aluminium and titanium lacings will
show up on conventional metal detectors.

A character with bone lacing can also choose to have his unarmed blows do
physical damage, but the Power Level of the attack is halved (round up).

Material Bonus Unarmed Blow Essense Cost Price
Plastic +1 Body (Str + 1)M2 .50 7,500
Aluminium +1 Body, +1 Impact (Str + 2)M2 1.15 25,000
Titanium +2 Body, +1 Impact, (Str + 3)M2 2.25 75,000
+1 Ballistic

Legality Rating: 6P-CA/B/C
Availability: 5/14 days
Street Index: 1.5

>>>>>[Hitting a guy with lacing is only slightly less painful than hitting
a
wall made out of whatever the guy's laced with.]<<<<<
-Feral <15:15:15/ 12-13-52>

>>>>>[Yeah, and both examples aren't highly recommended. In the latter
case,
you mangle you fist. In the former, you torque the guy off, then mangle your
fist.]<<<<<
-Rapid Fire <16:20:14/ 12-13-52>

>>>>>[Well, now, that all depends on how hard you intend to hit him. If he
breaks first...]<<<<<
-Thor >18:51:48/ 12-13-52>

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
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f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 10
From: Patrick F Omalley <omalleyp@*******.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bone lacing question
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 1994 16:55:33 -0400
> John IV writes:
>
> > Well, that's not entirely true. Not all metals are ductile or
> > malleable. Anyway, in the real world here, they actually use titanium
> > reinforcements in bones to strengthen them if they've been weakened.
> > That wouldn't do any good if the titanium bends more easily than the bone
> > breaks.
>
> Yeah, true, but if it is true, then I would say the "titanium" we know is
> really an alloy, rather than the pure thing.
>

The "titanium we use today to renforce bones is actuacually a
carbon-titanium alloy. This creates a crystaline structure that compresses
when force is applied to it and just gets harder as more force is applied.




Patrick O'Malley (son of the Clan of Malley)
omalleyp@*******.msu.edu
ai141@@***.nmc.edu
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