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Message no. 1
From: Richard Tomasso rtomasso@*******.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:33:39 EDT
>From: JRCrandall@***.com
>Subject: Re: Essence Question
>
>On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 at 11:34:07 Gurth wrote:
>
> > > Given that concept, the question then is this. Why does bone
> > > lacing cost essence, since its essentially full body pin
> > > implantation?

Aside from game balance, bone lacing would be a very invasive
procedure. Special care would be needed to make sure blood
flow to/from the bones could be maintained. Plus there's the
pain factor. I heard one explanation for bone lacing costing
so much was the massive nerve damage done when the material
was bonded to the bone's surface.

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Message no. 2
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:43:07 -0400
>> > > Given that concept, the question then is this. Why does bone
>> > > lacing cost essence, since its essentially full body pin
>> > > implantation?
>
>Aside from game balance, bone lacing would be a very invasive
>procedure. Special care would be needed to make sure blood
>flow to/from the bones could be maintained. Plus there's the
>pain factor. I heard one explanation for bone lacing costing
>so much was the massive nerve damage done when the material
>was bonded to the bone's surface.
>


If you've read any of the Weapon X stuff regarding Wolvering they talk in
that about how such a massive lacing of the skeletal structure like what
Wolvie went through would have killed a normal person. So I tend to agree
with the invasive argument. That explains much in this question.
Message no. 3
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 23:53:13 +0100
In article <015801bff1c1$f21f8f80$2410c0d0@*****.neumedia.net>, James
Mick <sinabian@********.net> writes
>>> > > Given that concept, the question then is this. Why does bone
>>> > > lacing cost essence, since its essentially full body pin
>>> > > implantation?
>>
>>Aside from game balance, bone lacing would be a very invasive
>>procedure. Special care would be needed to make sure blood
>>flow to/from the bones could be maintained. Plus there's the
>>pain factor. I heard one explanation for bone lacing costing
>>so much was the massive nerve damage done when the material
>>was bonded to the bone's surface.
>>
>
>
>If you've read any of the Weapon X stuff regarding Wolvering they talk in
>that about how such a massive lacing of the skeletal structure like what
>Wolvie went through would have killed a normal person. So I tend to agree
>with the invasive argument. That explains much in this question.
>
<Wince>... My brain hurts :(

This seems to happen whenever people start talking about essence. ;)

>From what I can tell; it's a paradoxical measurement on an in-definite
scale... <Twitch>...

It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
darn invasive surgery and not lose essence. I would say that it was the
metal/similar implanted, but again, how don't bullets lodged somewhere
in the body subtract from essence? If it's based on nerve damage, then
how come paraplegics and quadriplegics still have a 6 essence?

<Twitch>, <Spasm>, <Twitch>

Hmm... Is it possible to create a magical virus/poison that attacks the
essence of a being? (Shweet... I'm gonna have to do a run with that in
now...)
DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 4
From: Quentin Campbell quentin@*******************.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:42:27 -0400
> It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
> invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
> darn invasive surgery and not lose essence. I would say that it was the
> metal/similar implanted, but again, how don't bullets lodged somewhere
> in the body subtract from essence? If it's based on nerve damage, then
> how come paraplegics and quadriplegics still have a 6 essence?
>
> <Twitch>, <Spasm>, <Twitch>

The way I deal with that in my campaigns is a simple adjustment of a basic
rule: I apply the potential Magic loss from Deadly Wound rule to *Essence*
instead of Magic, and then make everyone subject to it.

Q.
Message no. 5
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:00:37 -0400
>> It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
>> invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
>> darn invasive surgery and not lose essence.

Ahhh...but a katana isn't a permanent addition. Even if you insert anally,
the victim is going to eventually pull the katana out if you don't. (Let's
face it...that would just be flat uncomfy and not at all practical! LoL!)
Bone lacing, on the other hand, stays. Until some magnetic powered ass-munch
comes along and rips it out of you turning you into a berserker skrull gone
completely mad from the pain!
Message no. 6
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 10:07:13 +0100
In article <NEBBKKMEPKMEFDEBOGLOEEICCHAA.quentin@************
network.com>, Quentin Campbell <quentin@************network.com> writes
>
>> It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
>> invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
>> darn invasive surgery and not lose essence. I would say that it was the
>> metal/similar implanted, but again, how don't bullets lodged somewhere
>> in the body subtract from essence? If it's based on nerve damage, then
>> how come paraplegics and quadriplegics still have a 6 essence?
>>
>> <Twitch>, <Spasm>, <Twitch>
>
> The way I deal with that in my campaigns is a simple adjustment of a
>basic
>rule: I apply the potential Magic loss from Deadly Wound rule to *Essence*
>instead of Magic, and then make everyone subject to it.
>
That makes sense... But that could be deadly to a 0.XX essence street
sam... Perhaps divide current essence by 6 to find out how much essence
is lost?
DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 7
From: Fyre - AKA Colin fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 01:45:38 +0100
In article <006601bff31c$0bfc9640$2410c0d0@*****.neumedia.net>, James
Mick <sinabian@********.net> writes
>>> It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
>>> invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
>>> darn invasive surgery and not lose essence.
>
>Ahhh...but a katana isn't a permanent addition. Even if you insert anally,
>the victim is going to eventually pull the katana out if you don't. (Let's
>face it...that would just be flat uncomfy and not at all practical! LoL!)
>Bone lacing, on the other hand, stays. Until some magnetic powered ass-munch
>comes along and rips it out of you turning you into a berserker skrull gone
>completely mad from the pain!
>
I would agree with this, but remember that essence loss is permanent.
Even if uber-magnet sucked out your bone lacing (assuming it wasn't
plastic or whatever... Not all metals are all that magnetic) you
wouldn't get the essence back. A slash (or a bullet as it passes through
you) could theoretically cause essence loss as it stays with you for a
while anyway (although it is possible that a bullet could get lodged in
the body...). You could try the approach that the essence is lost
gradually as the invasion sinks in to the aurora (like I care if it
makes sense?) but even then there is theoretical essence loss whenever
you cut yourself.

The only real way to explain this is that essence is to stop people from
being oober cyber crunchie munchers.
DarkFyre
--
fyre@******.demon.co.uk
Message no. 8
From: Quentin Campbell quentin@*******************.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 15:34:40 -0400
> > The way I deal with that in my campaigns is a simple
> adjustment of a
> >basic
> >rule: I apply the potential Magic loss from Deadly Wound rule to
> *Essence*
> >instead of Magic, and then make everyone subject to it.
> >
> That makes sense... But that could be deadly to a 0.XX essence street
> sam... Perhaps divide current essence by 6 to find out how much essence
> is lost?
> DarkFyre

I know it's potentially dangerous for people with low Essence (or Essence
Index). That 'side effect' is actually very balancing, I've found. It
provides lots of motivation for the chromers and juicers to upgrade their
implants as soon as they can afford to, as well as keeping everyone on their
toes and worried about getting shot. The severity of this (along with the
Implant Damage rules from M&M, which we play with as well) is countered by
the relative rarity of anyone with a Body of 4+ wearing armor actually
taking a Deadly Wound.

Q.
Message no. 9
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:08:23 GMT
>From: "Quentin Campbell" <quentin@*******************.com>
> I know it's potentially dangerous for people with low Essence (or Essence
>Index). That 'side effect' is actually very balancing, I've found. It
>provides lots of motivation for the chromers and juicers to upgrade their
>implants as soon as they can afford to, as well as keeping everyone on
>their
>toes and worried about getting shot. The severity of this (along with the
>Implant Damage rules from M&M, which we play with as well) is countered by
>the relative rarity of anyone with a Body of 4+ wearing armor actually
>taking a Deadly Wound.

How do you deal with actual magic loss, I mean, essence stays at 6 whereas a
magical character can initiate. If they still have to roll under their
essence to avoid loosing magic and it doesn't matter what grade they are.
Part of magic loss is the idea that the higher you get your magic attribute,
the easier it is to loose a point of magic from a deadly wound.

Phil

Let us assume we have a can opener.
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Message no. 10
From: Quentin Campbell quentin@*******************.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 07:05:03 -0400
> >From: "Quentin Campbell" <quentin@*******************.com>
> > I know it's potentially dangerous for people with low
> Essence (or Essence
> >Index). That 'side effect' is actually very balancing, I've found. It
> >provides lots of motivation for the chromers and juicers to upgrade their
> >implants as soon as they can afford to, as well as keeping everyone on
> >their
> >toes and worried about getting shot. The severity of this (along with the
> >Implant Damage rules from M&M, which we play with as well) is
> countered by
> >the relative rarity of anyone with a Body of 4+ wearing armor actually
> >taking a Deadly Wound.
>
> How do you deal with actual magic loss, I mean, essence stays at
> 6 whereas a
> magical character can initiate. If they still have to roll under their
> essence to avoid loosing magic and it doesn't matter what grade
> they are.
> Part of magic loss is the idea that the higher you get your magic
> attribute,
> the easier it is to loose a point of magic from a deadly wound.

Really? I'd always figured that the 'it gets easier to lose power as you
gain power' effect was an unintentional rules-conflict flub, since the core
rules present no way to permanently raise Magic while initiation is in a
separate (optional) book. Yeah, I know: it's not like anyone *I've* every
seen has played Shadowrun with out the Grimoire / MotS either, but hey...
;-)
Also, it seems to me that one of the most compelling reasons magicians
would want to initiate is not only for the boost in power, but also because
initiation would provide some insurance against this kind of Magic loss.
That not withstanding, the final balancing aspect of this is that high-power
initiates fall over dead at zero Essence just like everyone else.
If Dark Lords or their minions have said otherwise in the past regarding
this subject, let me know.

Q.
Message no. 11
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*****.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 09:27:50 -0500
: I know it's potentially dangerous for people with low Essence (or Essence
:Index). That 'side effect' is actually very balancing, I've found. It
:provides lots of motivation for the chromers and juicers to upgrade their
:implants as soon as they can afford to, as well as keeping everyone on
their
:toes and worried about getting shot. The severity of this (along with the
:Implant Damage rules from M&M, which we play with as well) is countered by
:the relative rarity of anyone with a Body of 4+ wearing armor actually
:taking a Deadly Wound.
:
: Q.

If you want a game where every character strives to maintain an essence
of 1 or more, that's fine, but it deosn't seem that the canon rules and
fiction make low essence a signifigant contributing factor in trauma related
death. M&M implies some effects it has on treatment, recovery, and long
term health, but not on immediate wound survival.
Besides, in my experience, its almost always people who take deadly
wounds who suffer any implant damage using the M&M rules. It seems a bit
much to add essence loss to the one time when a character suffers implant
damge.
Also, what would you do for a cyberzombie? Would they loose essence and
be even more "zombie"?

Mongoose

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Message no. 12
From: James Mick sinabian@********.net
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:16:25 -0400
>being oober cyber crunchie munchers.


Oh I likes! ; )~ This sound like a breakfast cereal to anybody else?!? Very
valid points though...and I think being the evil GM I am, if a bullet
becomes lodged in a character I might make them deduct a .1 essence loss if
it isn't removed... Maybe even give further essence penalties if still it
remains. (Maybe an extra .1 every week or something. From what I understand,
and everyone say it with me "I could be wrong...it's been known to
happen...", if a bullet gets lodged in the body it's going to start working
it's way through your system to your heart or something like that so
supposedly it would be lethal to leave it in there anyway...and something
like that would theoretically definitely leave somebody a little weaker.)
Message no. 13
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:59:56 -0600
Fyre - AKA Colin wrote:
>In article <NEBBKKMEPKMEFDEBOGLOEEICCHAA.quentin@************
>network.com>, Quentin Campbell <quentin@************network.com> writes
> >
> >> It would measure how invasive something is, but a Katana can be quite
> >> invasive and cause no essence loss. It is quite possible to have pretty
> >> darn invasive surgery and not lose essence. I would say that it was the
> >> metal/similar implanted, but again, how don't bullets lodged somewhere
> >> in the body subtract from essence? If it's based on nerve damage, then
> >> how come paraplegics and quadriplegics still have a 6 essence?
> >>
> >> <Twitch>, <Spasm>, <Twitch>
> >
> > The way I deal with that in my campaigns is a simple adjustment of a
> >basic
> >rule: I apply the potential Magic loss from Deadly Wound rule to *Essence*
> >instead of Magic, and then make everyone subject to it.
>
>That makes sense... But that could be deadly to a 0.XX essence street
>sam... Perhaps divide current essence by 6 to find out how much essence
>is lost?

Don't you check for magic loss by rolling 2d6 vs the current magic rating
and reduce the magic rating if the 2d6 result is below the current magic
rating? In which case if a character has a magic of 1, they can't possibly
lose magic due to deadly wounds.

If so, the same would apply to essence. If one's essence is 1 or less,
then they aren't in any danger of losing more as the result of a deadly
wound (if the magic loss rules are applied to essence instead of one's
magic rating).


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 14
From: Quentin Campbell quentin@*******************.com
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:09:12 -0400
> -----Original Message-----
> From: shadowrn-admin@*********.com
> [mailto:shadowrn-admin@*********.com]On Behalf Of
> dbuehrer@******.carl.org
> Sent: Monday, July 24, 2000 11:00 AM
> To: shadowrn@*********.com
> Subject: Re: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
>
> Don't you check for magic loss by rolling 2d6 vs the current magic rating
> and reduce the magic rating if the 2d6 result is below the current magic
> rating? In which case if a character has a magic of 1, they
> can't possibly
> lose magic due to deadly wounds.
>
> If so, the same would apply to essence. If one's essence is 1 or less,
> then they aren't in any danger of losing more as the result of a deadly
> wound (if the magic loss rules are applied to essence instead of one's
> magic rating).


You always lose a point of Magic (or Essence, in my silly games) if you get
a 2 on the 2d6 roll.


Q.
Message no. 15
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Bone Lacing (was Essence Ques)
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:16:04 -0600
Quentin Campbell wrote:

> dbuehrer@******.carl.org
>
> > Don't you check for magic loss by rolling 2d6 vs the current magic rating
> > and reduce the magic rating if the 2d6 result is below the current magic
> > rating? In which case if a character has a magic of 1, they
> > can't possibly
> > lose magic due to deadly wounds.
> >
> > If so, the same would apply to essence. If one's essence is 1 or less,
> > then they aren't in any danger of losing more as the result of a deadly
> > wound (if the magic loss rules are applied to essence instead of one's
> > magic rating).
>
> You always lose a point of Magic (or Essence, in my silly games) if
> you get
>a 2 on the 2d6 roll.

Youch! Well, that would make things... challenging :)


To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Wisdom has two parts: having a lot to say, and not saying it."

Further Reading

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