Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:50:07 -0500
I had to have my local store order the Johnson's black book, and after
looking at it momentarily, I've got to ask, what in gods green earth is in
that book that's so good that something that's about an eighth as thick as
the main rulebook, that makes it worth $25, when the main book is only
$30....
Message no. 2
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:08:00 +0100
Derek Hyde wrote:
> I had to have my local store order the Johnson's black book, and after
> looking at it momentarily, I've got to ask, what in gods green earth
> is in that book that's so good that something that's about an eighth
> as thick as the main rulebook, that makes it worth $25, when the main
> book is only $30....

Economies of scale... The most expensive parts of printing a book are
the money paid to the author, the costs of setting up the layout,
artwork etc, and the creation of the printing plates. That all costs
much the same for any book. The actual cost of the paper and ink used to
print off a run is relatively low, whether you print 10,000 or 100,000.
But the pre-printing costs can be spread over the 100,000 copy run much
thinner than over the 10,000 copy run.

Now you will sell an awful lot more main rulebooks than you will
supplements to those rules. In our group of 7 players we probably have 5
copies of the main rules between us (As peopple are always say "pass me
a main book so I can look something up" so overtime the wealthier
players end up buying 2-3 copies so they can keep hold of one and pass
others around), but only 1 person is likely to by the Mr Johnsons
book...

So by selling more copies of the main book the cost per copy is much
lower. If they were expecting to sell them in equal numbers, so had
equal sized print runs, then either Mr J's LBB would cost about $10 (if
the MJLBB was printed in the larger numbers of the Main book print run)
or the main book $50 (If they had only printed as many as the smaller
MJLBB print run) etc

Matt


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.762 / Virus Database: 510 - Release Date: 15/09/2004
Message no. 3
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:11:26 -0400
On 20-Sep-04, at 10:08 PM, Matthew Bond wrote:
>
> So by selling more copies of the main book the cost per copy is much
> lower. If they were expecting to sell them in equal numbers, so had
> equal sized print runs, then either Mr J's LBB would cost about $10 (if
> the MJLBB was printed in the larger numbers of the Main book print run)
> or the main book $50 (If they had only printed as many as the smaller
> MJLBB print run) etc

SR3 is also one of the most inexpensive core books on the market right
now, as it hasn't been raised in price since it was released in 1998.

Adam
--
Adam Jury
Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental :: http://tss.dumpshock.com
Message no. 4
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 22:03:12 -0500
>
> SR3 is also one of the most inexpensive core books on the market right
> now, as it hasn't been raised in price since it was released in 1998.

Ok, perhaps I should have compared it to a book that's more
relating......such as shadows of north america....estimating size difference
it's about 3 times thicker, and the same price....all in all it's just a
simple question, I just want to know what's in there as far as extremely
useful info before I shell out for a book like that than I don't necessarily
want/need, ya know? I've made the mistake of going out to the store and
ordering books that I thought were different things, believed that they were
supposed to be sourcebooks and instead they were adventures and had already
committed to buying....and my group hates playing pre-mades....so I try to
find out as much as I can before I buy the book, and I'd heard a lot of good
about this one, **BUT** after seeing this one....I've got to second guess
what I was hearing simply based on the size of the book.....
Message no. 5
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 20:49:13 -0700
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derek Hyde" <d_hyde@***.com>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Monday, September 20, 2004 6:50 PM
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)


> I had to have my local store order the Johnson's black book, and after
> looking at it momentarily, I've got to ask, what in gods green earth is in
> that book that's so good that something that's about an eighth as thick as
> the main rulebook, that makes it worth $25, when the main book is only
> $30....
>
That's not the way it works. The rulebook is a lot cheaper than it could be,
given today's prices. I buy a lot of books and get burned sometimes, or
even a lot, that's just tough. What's about MJLBB that's so awful, anyhow?
If we don't buy the SR books, there will be no more SR.
--Anders
Message no. 6
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:38:32 -0500
> What's about MJLBB that's so awful, anyhow?

Other than its price in comparison to other books in the game system....not
much....although, that's why I was asking, what is it that's in it that
makes it worth the cost or what not
Message no. 7
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm@*****.com)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 21:44:16 -0700
--On Monday, September 20, 2004 8:39 PM Derek Hyde wrote;
--To: Shadowrun Discussion
--Subject: Re: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
--
--> What's about MJLBB that's so awful, anyhow?
--
--Other than its price in comparison to other books in the game
--system....not much....although, that's why I was asking, what
--is it that's in it that makes it worth the cost or what not
--

I've always considered that to be relative.

I get what your fishing for, but in the end your question can only be
answered by yourself.

When all is said and done, just by asking this question sugests that you
already have that answer.

- Failhelm
Message no. 8
From: d_hyde@***.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 23:50:47 -0500
> When all is said and done, just by asking this question sugests that you
> already have that answer.
>
> - Failhelm
Philosophy aside, I was just simply wondering what exactly is IN the book,
not really the value of it
Message no. 9
From: owen@***.edu.au (Owen McKerrow)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 14:55:26 +1000
On 21/09/2004, at 2:50 PM, Derek Hyde wrote:

>> When all is said and done, just by asking this question sugests that
>> you
>> already have that answer.
>>
>> - Failhelm
> Philosophy aside, I was just simply wondering what exactly is IN the
> book,
> not really the value of it

Well you can start with whats on the offical site :

“I’ve got a job for you.”
“Call me Mr. Johnson. I’m like a fixer for the corps. I know everybody
who’s anybody from suit-and-tie boardroom predators to the lowliest
street-level scavengers. I know the best sprawl sites for scoring new
talent, exchanging goods without interruption or hiding out from the
assassins on your tail. I like to ensure that the people I hire can
execute a well-planned black ops job and keep their faces from being
splashed all over the screamsheets. My files on you say that you’re
right for what I have in mind. Interested?”

Mr. Johnson’s Little Black Book provides dozens of locations and
contacts for both Shadowrun gamemasters and players. For the
gamemaster, it includes a wealth of simple adventure ideas and street
encounters that can be randomly chosen and run. It also features
detailed advice on setting up and handling shadowruns, negotiating with
shadowrunners and optional rules for low and high-level campaigns,
reputation, prejudice and more. For use with Shadowrun, Third Edition.

And then have a read of the developers say/introduction :

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/fanpro/intro_mrjlbb.shtml

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
- - - - - - - -
People who prefer typing to pointing then seem to prefer acronyms to
save typing :-)
-Denis Stanton, On people using Command Line Interfaces
Message no. 10
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:22:33 +0200
According to Matthew Bond, on Tuesday 21 September 2004 04:08 the word on
the street was...

> As peopple are always say "pass me
> a main book so I can look something up"

*gasp* You have players who look things up THEMSELVES?! 99% of the time,
mine simply ask me, and so I'm the one who ends up looking things up in
rulebooks... (Despite five out of eight players owning a copy of the main
rules, only exactly one copy is usually available when we play, because
everybody leaves theirs at home.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
+--The end is here
|-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
|-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
|
|GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
|O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
|Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
V
Message no. 11
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 07:58:10 -0600
On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 03:08:00 +0100, Matthew Bond <mattgbond@********.com> wrote:
>
>
> Derek Hyde wrote:
> > I had to have my local store order the Johnson's black book, and after
> > looking at it momentarily, I've got to ask, what in gods green earth
> > is in that book that's so good that something that's about an eighth
> > as thick as the main rulebook, that makes it worth $25, when the main
> > book is only $30....
>
> Economies of scale... The most expensive parts of printing a book are
> the money paid to the author, the costs of setting up the layout,
> artwork etc, and the creation of the printing plates. That all costs
> much the same for any book. The actual cost of the paper and ink used to
> print off a run is relatively low, whether you print 10,000 or 100,000.
> But the pre-printing costs can be spread over the 100,000 copy run much
> thinner than over the 10,000 copy run.

Sorry, but not true.

The author doesn't get paid squat. And they get paid a one time fee.
Ditto for artists.

The guy hired to do the layout doesn't get paid that much (unless Adam
proves me wrong ;) And in terms of the actual number of hours the
layout person takes to layout the book, the cost is pretty small.

These days printing plates are cheap in comparison to the rest of the print run.

Paper is not cheap. It hasn't been cheap for years. Ever wonder why
paperbacks have doubled in price over the last ten years? Because the
price of paper has pretty much doubled in price over the last ten
years. The higher quality paper is much more expensive then low
quality paper.

The ink can easily be the most expensive part. One color (black) is
the cheapest. Multiple spot colors increases the price more. Four
color (mixing CYMK) is the most expensive.

Every sourcebook has a thick paper (high cost) four color (more high
cost) cover.

And finally, the few copies printed, the more expensive it is per
individual copy. This can really affect sourcebooks, because in
general they are run off of a smaller print run, and that print run is
based off the sales of the core book, not the print run of the core
book. That's one of the major reason why the price of sourcebooks is
disproportionate to the price of the core book.

So, the cover of the sourcebook costs more than the cover of the core
book. It's on the same paper, same number of colors, but the print
run is smaller so there's a higher cost per unit.

It has less paper inside, and one color, but that's the relatively
cheap paper. And because it's unit cost is higher due to the smaller
print run the difference turns out to be neglibable.

And finally, it's very common for companies to lower the profit margin
for the core book in order to get people hooked, and then set a higher
profit margin on the sourcebooks in order to balance that out (they're
goal is to make money after all).

--
-Graht
Message no. 12
From: failhelm@*****.com (failhelm)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 10:42:21 -0700 (PDT)
--- Graht <graht1@*****.com> wrote:
> Paper is not cheap.

Maybe we should go soy?

- Failhelm
Message no. 13
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book)
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 11:47:59 -0700 (PDT)
> > Philosophy aside, I was just simply wondering what exactly is IN
> > the book, not really the value of it

> Well you can start with whats on the offical site :
[SNIP]
> Mr. Johnson’s Little Black Book provides dozens of locations and
> contacts for both Shadowrun gamemasters and players. For the
> gamemaster, it includes a wealth of simple adventure ideas and
> street encounters that can be randomly chosen and run. It also
> features detailed advice on setting up and handling shadowruns,
> negotiating with shadowrunners and optional rules for low and
high-> level campaigns, reputation, prejudice and more. For use with
> Shadowrun, Third Edition.
[SNIP]

Sounds like a combination between the 2nd edition Contacts (came with
GM screen) and the 1st edition Sprawl Sites (loved this book when it
first came out). Along with some expansion on info in the Shadowrun
Companion and Corporate Download. All in all, probably worth the
$25. It is info unlikely to be found neatly codified anywhere else,
and brings some handy resources from earlier editions into 3rd. I
have a copy ordered. My first reaction is to classify it as a "one
time purchase". Some books see a lot of wear and tear, and are
needed every game session by multiple people. For example, I make it
a point to own about three copies of the core rule book, and
continually pressure my players to buy their own. I like to have two
copies of any books relevant to character generation. I like to have
two copies of any book that someone asks to reference more than once
a game session. In long running campaigns, I will often give core
rule books and heavily used expansion sourcebooks as holiday gifts.
I figure it prolongs the life of my books, so it is a gift and an
investment. :)
Books that are usually only referenced by the GM, and not even every
session, I buy one copy of and that is all. MJLBB sounds like such
sourcebook. At $25, it sounds pretty reasonable to me. By all
means, charge a lot for the books I am only going to buy one of.
Keep the main rule book and sourcebooks like the Cannon Companion as
cheap as possible.

======Korishinzo
--economics, the science of rational irrationality



_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Book pricing question (or Johnson's Little Black Book), you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.