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Message no. 1
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:05:34 -0500
Hey, I just had a thought! [DOH!!! Just forgot it!]. Anyway, if
anybody's interrested, why doesn't the list run down what your favorite
Shadowrun novels were [top 4] and why. Just curious what everybody has
to say.


I guess to kick it off, my favorite Shadowrun novels [in order]
are:

1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
I love murder mysteries, stories on Jack the
Ripper, and England. It also introduced some of my favorite
Shadowrun characters.
2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
All the old gang are back, and it's got Leonardo
DaVinci to boot [yes, I'm a big Leo fan, too]
3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
It starts out at a leisurely pace, then picks up
like Aliens on speed! It's a rush to read.
4) Night's Pawn by Tom Dowd
A mysterious runner trying to retire, but his
past won't let him. Cross-country chases, and
well paced action, with a cool central character.


Well, those are my selections. What are yours?
Message no. 2
From: Justin Pinnow <jpinnow@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:28:54 -0500
Fisher, Victor wrote:

> Hey, I just had a thought! [DOH!!! Just forgot it!]. Anyway, if
> anybody's interrested, why doesn't the list run down what your favorite
> Shadowrun novels were [top 4] and why. Just curious what everybody has
> to say.

<Snip of selections>

> Well, those are my selections. What are yours?

Well, it's been awhile since I read many of them, but I am currently in
my reread-all-my-shadowrun-novels phase. My top votes are for Burning
Bright and The Secrets of Power trilogy. In no particular order.

Justin :)
--
_____________________________________________________________________________
Justin Pinnow
jpinnow@*****.edu
Message no. 3
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:32:38 +0000
On 26 Mar 97 at 11:05, Fisher, Victor wrote:
>
> Well, those are my selections. What are yours?
>

I like all the novels by Nigel Findley, and of those Lone Wolf is
probably my favorite. I can't handle Nyx Smith at all. I only got
thru one chapter in the Striper novels. Streets of Blood is also a
least favorite. I got halfway through it and lost interest. I might
try to pick it up again, though.


====DREKHEAD==============================================================
Tim Kerby | Never relax. Your run may be over, but someone,
drekhead@***.net |somewhere, is just starting his and the target
drekhead@***.com | could be you.
drekhead@*******.com | ---http://users.aol.com/drekhead/home.html---
=========================================================================
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Message no. 4
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:01:41 -0500
> I guess to kick it off, my favorite Shadowrun novels [in order]
>are:

First I'll comment on yours, since we seem to have vastly different tastes:

>1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

Blah. I found this to one of the worst....a weak plot line, overly powerful
characters, and several elements I just didn't like. SEcond worst.

>2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

Here you found the only book I like less that Streets of Blood. A weaker
plot line, with even MORE overly powerful characters, along with some
revisionist religious sludge thrown in. Worst Novel to date.

>3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd

Good choice. The characters are reasonable in power (although that solo
ritual magic trick isn't too easy....I've tried it) and the plot holds
together very well.

>4) Night's Pawn by Tom Dowd

Not bad. I'd rate this as an average SR Novel, which puts it at "worth
reading".

1> 2XS (I'm afraid I don't have the authors memorized)

Low level runner gets roped into a nefarious (and yet believable)
plot. I re-read this one so many times the binding fell apart.

2> Changling

Again, A runner starting from the ground up. Round, detailed
characters, a good view of Sprawl life, and genetics and racial ethics
thrown in. A very strong novel, regardless of the SR elements.

3> Striper Assassin
I don't tend to like overly powerful characters, but the chilling
mindset portrayed here was excellent, and is a great read for GM's for
generating some NPC personalities. I require any runner who wants to playa
shapeshifter in my games to read this. Sadly, it is out of print.

4> Lone Wolf
Runner from a Lone Star Background, with insight into First-Tier
Gang mentality. As a novel not bad, and as a tool for getting the
"inside-view" of Lone STar and Gangs it was excellent.

I would also Mention Steel Rain, not because I thought it was an incredible
novel, or because I liked the character to an extreme degree, just that I
love the Japanese attitude, and this is the only SR Novel which shows it.

Note some of the common themes in my selections: Low-power runners, strong
plots, and well-developed and _ROUND_ characters. (A street Sam that can
kill you in 1001 ways may be detailed but he isn't ROUND!)

ANyone else?

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 5
From: Shane Courtrille <hardware@*******.DATANET.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 13:15:36 +0000
> >3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
>
> Good choice. The characters are reasonable in power (although that solo
> ritual magic trick isn't too easy....I've tried it) and the plot holds
> together very well.

My definite choice for one of the best SR books. I really liked it,
and it was a good introduction into Bug City.

> I would also Mention Steel Rain, not because I thought it was an incredible

I just finished this book and personally I loved it. Interesting
plot, a few suprises and plot twists... all together a good book and
the Japanese view was very enlightening and good.
Shane Courtrille - hardware@*******.ab.ca
Message no. 6
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:23:46 -0500
Brett said:

>
>
>First I'll comment on yours, since we seem to have vastly different tastes:
Well, in reply
>>1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
This book had the BEST characters I've ever seen in a Shadowrun book.
They were a lot more real than the usual arrogant, posturing, macho,
kill'em all characters that seem prevalent in some of the books [I'll
name examples later]. The aspects of british culture rang dead on for
me, and so did the potrayal of what it would be like for an Indian ork
in the year 205-. A number of my friends are from India, and they
commented that from a fantasy standpoint, it was probably pretty
accurate. The characters also wern't cardboard cutouts of archetypes
that also seems prevelant in so many Shadowrun books. I read because I
like to see how the author can expand on a 2-dimensional concept, NOT
>how to create another maudlin character.
>>2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
>Ditto for this one.
>>3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
>
>Good choice. The characters are reasonable in power (although that solo
>ritual magic trick isn't too easy....I've tried it) and the plot holds
>together very well.
You have to stop thinking in terms of how I can make a character, but if
the character lives on in your imagination after you close the book.
>e>4) Night's Pawn by Tom Dowd
>
>Not bad. I'd rate this as an average SR Novel, which puts it at "worth
>reading".
Better than average.
>1> 2XS (I'm afraid I don't have the authors memorized)
>
> Low level runner gets roped into a nefarious (and yet believable)
>plot. I re-read this one so many times the binding fell apart.
The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
D&D.
>2> Changling
>
> Again, A runner starting from the ground up. Round, detailed
>characters, a good view of Sprawl life, and genetics and racial ethics
>thrown in. A very strong novel, regardless of the SR elements.
Why do you feel the need to have all your characters in novels start
form the ground up? There's such a thing as growth; change. Without it,
a two-dimensional character just stagnates, and loses my interest.
>3> Striper Assassin
> I don't tend to like overly powerful characters, but the chilling
>mindset portrayed here was excellent, and is a great read for GM's for
>generating some NPC personalities. I require any runner who wants to playa
>shapeshifter in my games to read this. Sadly, it is out of print.
Now, I REALLY hated this one. The character ws an amoral
S.O.B. I could neither emphathize with nor care about. Her mental dialog
was worse than the old days when The Hulk went 'Hulk Smash Puny
Humans!'.
In general, I don't care for Nyx Smith's writing. It's to plodding, and
doesn't flow well. Maybe if he chose better characters to center his
stories around.
>4> Lone Wolf
> Runner from a Lone Star Background, with insight into First-Tier
>Gang mentality. As a novel not bad, and as a tool for getting the
>"inside-view" of Lone STar and Gangs it was excellent.
Not a great Shadowrun novel, but worth a read.
>I would also Mention Steel Rain, not because I thought it was an incredible
>novel, or because I liked the character to an extreme degree, just that I
>love the Japanese attitude, and this is the only SR Novel which shows it.
He does know his asian culture; now he just needs more symphathetic
characters.
>Note some of the common themes in my selections: Low-power runners, strong
>plots, and well-developed and _ROUND_ characters. (A street Sam that can
>kill you in 1001 ways may be detailed but he isn't ROUND!)
And a vicious killer like Striper who uses a MINIGUN in the first
10 pages of the book to kill 3 people is your idea of a starting
low-level, well-rounded character? Low Level DOES NOT equate with WELL
>ROUNDED.
Message no. 7
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:11:03 -0500
>>>1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

>They were a lot more real than the usual arrogant, posturing, macho,
>kill'em all characters that seem prevalent in some of the books [I'll
>name examples later]. The aspects of british culture rang dead on for
>me, and so did the potrayal of what it would be like for an Indian ork
>in the year 205-. A number of my friends are from India, and they
>commented that from a fantasy standpoint, it was probably pretty
>accurate. The characters also wern't cardboard cutouts of archetypes
>that also seems prevelant in so many Shadowrun books. I read because I
>like to see how the author can expand on a 2-dimensional concept, NOT
>>how to create another maudlin character.

Whew. Okay. Well, I don't want to start a huge thread on this, but I'll
respond.

I found the characters read like a B grade mystery novel: the rich playboy,
the eccentric Decker with 5 (FIVE!!!) Excaliburs, etc. The main character
wasn't too bad, but he didn't do a lot for me. You can be multi-dimensional
withou being "maudlin". And the plot of the book really didn't work....too
many instances of being in the right place at the right time, and the
characters making guesses I just didn't follow.

>>>2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
>>Ditto for this one.

Moreso. Only this time we add an Immortal elf, and about four or five
all-powerful religious magical groups. Too munchkin, and the plot jumps
were worse than above.

>>>3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
>>Good choice. The characters are reasonable in power (although that solo
>>ritual magic trick isn't too easy....I've tried it) and the plot holds
>>together very well.
>You have to stop thinking in terms of how I can make a character, but if
>the character lives on in your imagination after you close the book.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Exactly. 2 dimensional characters DON'T live on for me....they never lived.

>>e>4) Night's Pawn by Tom Dowd
>>Not bad. I'd rate this as an average SR Novel, which puts it at "worth
>>reading".
> Better than average.

Average for an SR novel, which (IMNSHO) is better than average. Don't let
my harsh opinions on the two above let you think I dislike the SR Novels,
quite the opposite. You just selected the two I dislike. C'est la vie.

>>1> 2XS (I'm afraid I don't have the authors memorized)
> The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
>D&D.

I should explain this point, since it comes up again later. When I am faced
with two characters, one who is a) fabulously wealthy, magically poewrful,
or skilled out the wazoo and the other who is b) flawed, believable, and
someone I can identify with in someway, I take b. This is a character that
I can jive with. When he is faced with overwhelming odds, I can understand
how he feels, since _I_ would be in as much of a fix. The A. character is
too remote for me to sympathize with. I certainly understand that others
can.....Superman and Batman didn't become popular because they were average.
But personally, I find it more thrilling and believable when an otherwise
average character overcomes great odds based on his intelligence,
quick-thinking, perseverence(sp), and determination. After all, that's all
_I_ have to go on.

>>2> Changling
>>thrown in. A very strong novel, regardless of the SR elements.
>Why do you feel the need to have all your characters in novels start
>form the ground up? There's such a thing as growth; change. Without it,
>a two-dimensional character just stagnates, and loses my interest.

Okay, Firstly, realize that I don't like 2-D characters, period. The novels
I listed so far didn't have them. I felt the characters were developed and
round. I agree about growth and change.....but when you are a rich playboy,
or the 5 Fairlight decker, I don't see growth and change.....I see
stagnation. When a "low-level" character accomplishes something, I feel the
triumph. When the grade 7 initiate makes an astral quest, I yawn.

>>3> Striper Assassin
>> I don't tend to like overly powerful characters, but the chilling
>>mindset portrayed here was excellent, and is a great read for GM's for
>>generating some NPC personalities. I require any runner who wants to playa
>>shapeshifter in my games to read this. Sadly, it is out of print.
> Now, I REALLY hated this one. The character ws an amoral
>S.O.B. I could neither emphathize with nor care about. Her mental dialog
>was worse than the old days when The Hulk went 'Hulk Smash Puny
>Humans!'.

True. In retrospect, I should change this one. I didn't really like the
novel all that much....too amoral, etc, like you said....BUT, I listed it
for exactly those reasons...Nyx put them in because Striper had an alien
mindset, and the novel does a good job of portraying it. It's a USEFUL
novel, but not a quality one.

In replacing it for the best, I'd second someone's vote of the Secrets of
Power.....this trilogy started it all, and created a precedent that I
consider different from those AD&D books I have read.

>In general, I don't care for Nyx Smith's writing. It's to plodding, and
>doesn't flow well. Maybe if he chose better characters to center his
>stories around.

I pretty much agree....his writing itself seems pretty good to me....Striper
is useful BECAUSE it does such a good job of portraying an alien mindset.
However, as a plotline, it just doesn't grab you. HE seems to be a munchkin
player as well....just check out the trick of blocking bullets with a sword
in Steel rain. I wonder what would happen if he tried writing a book with a
non-all-powerful central character....

>>4> Lone Wolf
>> Runner from a Lone Star Background, with insight into First-Tier
>>Gang mentality. As a novel not bad, and as a tool for getting the
>>"inside-view" of Lone STar and Gangs it was excellent.

>Not a great Shadowrun novel, but worth a read.
Yeah, as SR it was average, but like I said, the inside view was great. I
should praise Night's Pawn once again, because in that their was a powerful
character that I DIDN"T dislike. Mainly because his power was more
experience than money/equipent/cyber/skill.

>>I would also Mention Steel Rain, not because I thought it was an incredible
>>novel, or because I liked the character to an extreme degree, just that I
>>love the Japanese attitude, and this is the only SR Novel which shows it.
>He does know his asian culture; now he just needs more symphathetic
>characters.

Sympathetic how? Bleeding heart style or someone you can identify with?

>>Note some of the common themes in my selections: Low-power runners, strong
>>plots, and well-developed and _ROUND_ characters. (A street Sam that can
>>kill you in 1001 ways may be detailed but he isn't ROUND!)
> And a vicious killer like Striper who uses a MINIGUN in the first
>10 pages of the book to kill 3 people is your idea of a starting
>low-level, well-rounded character? Low Level DOES NOT equate with WELL
>>ROUNDED.

okay, two points: 1) Striper was NOT low-level. Look at the other novels I
mentioned. 2) Round has nothing to do with Well-rounded abilities. By
Round I refer to a detailed and non-2D personality. Since low-level
characters have to rely more on other facets of their life beyond their
wealth/equipment/cyber/skills/whatever, it HELPS the author come up with and
portray a Round character.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 8
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:20:53 -0500
My take on reading is when the descriptions are especially vivid,
the characters stay in your mind after you put the book down, and you
feel after all the perilous twists and turns, youself emerging into the
sunlight after a long dark night, that's my idea of a good book.
Unfortunately, it seems to me, many Shadowrun novels take the easy way
out, and simply depict archetype characters easily pegged from the get
go, without any further development. Some Shadowrun novels I'd take with
me if my house was burning down; others, I'd probably chuck on the fire.
When I read, I don't automatically think of the people in the book
in game terms [i.e. this guy has a +2 Spell Focus, and and expendible
fetish]. You do that in the game. The trick is making him seem much more
than a collection of stats, not how he doesn't fit into some pat,
preconceived notion on how his 'character' should be for playability.
It's like reading a novelization of a movie. A good one expands on
concepts and nuances the movie didn't have time for. A bad one reads
like a script, going word for word what the movie already stated.
Just because a character is 'weak' doesn't make him interresting,
or well rounded. A good character has strengths and flaws, and a story
should be about how he overcomes or surcumes <sp> to them.
A story should have a character the reader can emphathize with,
relate to. As in the case between Brett and myself, we relate to two
VERY different concepts. Pretty much, all the reasons he dislikes my
choices are the reasons I don't care for his [with some differences].
But I started this thread so the people out there who haven't read some
of these books can hear differing opinions about them, and DECIDE for
themselves. That's all. Intelligent discourse [and plenty of beer :-]
are the hallmarks of any reasonable society.
That said, OPEN FIRE!!!!
Message no. 9
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:36:00 -0500
Brett Borger said:
<snip>
You made some telling points, with you critiques, I found interresting.
Hopefully no one gets the idea we're flaming each other here <searches
frantically for his GORTEX fireproof blanket>
I guess that's why it's hard to write a GOOD novel.

>Good is relative, but CRAP is Universal!
Message no. 10
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:53:19 -0500
Fisher, Victor enlightened us with these words of wisdom:
<snip>

Bravo. I too welcome any discussion people wish to add to ours.

> My take on reading is when the descriptions are especially vivid,
>the characters stay in your mind after you put the book down, and you
>feel after all the perilous twists and turns, youself emerging into the
>sunlight after a long dark night, that's my idea of a good book.

I require an amount of empathy with the characters and events in addition to
vivid descriptions. After a good book, I tend to look around, realize it's
4 in the morning and I am indeed, still where I was when I started.

>Unfortunately, it seems to me, many Shadowrun novels take the easy way
>out, and simply depict archetype characters easily pegged from the get
>go, without any further development. Some Shadowrun novels I'd take with

I don't think so many of the novels took the easy way out, because there is
a LOT more to a character than the stereotype he can fall into.

> When I read, I don't automatically think of the people in the book
>in game terms [i.e. this guy has a +2 Spell Focus, and and expendible

Despite my comments on "low-level", Neither do I. I tend to think of them
in RL terms.

> Just because a character is 'weak' doesn't make him interresting,
>or well rounded. A good character has strengths and flaws, and a story
>should be about how he overcomes or surcumes <sp> to them.

Of course it doesn't. But a character I can identify with is more
interesting, and a character that has to rely on attributes beyond their
all-powerful Wuzzy-hoosis has more of a chance to show themselves to be
well-rounded.

> A story should have a character the reader can emphathize with,
>relate to. As in the case between Brett and myself, we relate to two
>VERY different concepts. Pretty much, all the reasons he dislikes my
>choices are the reasons I don't care for his [with some differences].

Yup. And we both have our points.

>themselves. That's all. Intelligent discourse [and plenty of beer :-]
>are the hallmarks of any reasonable society.
> That said, OPEN FIRE!!!!

:) I won't begin my dialogue about too much beer. :-)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 11
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:58:45 EST
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:11:03 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>>>1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
[...]
>I found the characters read like a B grade mystery novel: the rich
>playboy,
>the eccentric Decker with 5 (FIVE!!!) Excaliburs, etc. The main
>character
>wasn't too bad, but he didn't do a lot for me. You can be
>multi-dimensional
>withou being "maudlin". And the plot of the book really didn't
>work....too
>many instances of being in the right place at the right time, and the
>characters making guesses I just didn't follow.

I didn't like it either, but it's been so long since I read it that I
can't exactly remember why... but your points above have a familiar ring
to them...

>>>>3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd

One of MY personal fav's...


>>>1> 2XS (I'm afraid I don't have the authors memorized)

Was this the one with the Wasp Spirits and the guy with 2 cyber arms?
(Sorry it's also been a long time since I read it..) I felt it was
fairly entertaining..

>>>3> Striper Assassin
>> Now, I REALLY hated this one. The character ws an amoral
>>S.O.B. I could neither emphathize with nor care about. Her mental

[...]
>
>True. In retrospect, I should change this one. I didn't really like
the
>novel all that much....too amoral, etc, like you said....BUT, I listed
[...]

Hmm... I don't see why the antagonist being amoral has ANYTHING to do
with whether it's a good book or not...

~Tim
Message no. 12
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@****.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Book Review
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:08:31 -0500
When I saw this thread I had to put in my 2Y worth...

My favorite Shadowrun books are:

Shadowrun #7:Into the Shadows - Simply because in my mind that is what a
true run is. A bunch of non-connected events all merging at the end.

Steel Rain-It is well written.

Who hunts the hunter - I liked the racoon shaman development

Burning Bright - good general story

House of the Sun - no real reason.


Scott


"The sights on this gun must be off all I keep hitting are coffee
mugs." -John Cleese
Message no. 13
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:39:23 -0500
>>>>3> Striper Assassin
>>> Now, I REALLY hated this one. The character ws an amoral
>>>S.O.B. I could neither emphathize with nor care about. Her mental
>>True. In retrospect, I should change this one. I didn't really like
>Hmm... I don't see why the antagonist being amoral has ANYTHING to do
>with whether it's a good book or not...

Was Faces of Death a good film? Would Jeffery Dahmer or Charles Manson make
a good hero for your story?

Basically I like characters I can empathize with. Striper was a powerful
book, with a well-written main character. I disliked some of the plot
elements. Plus, a STRONG character doesn't make it a FAVORITE character.

THus, Striper can be GOOD, but not the BEST.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 14
From: Shawn Baumgartner <deosyne@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:28:13 -0800
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 11:05:34 -0500
>From: "Fisher, Victor"

> Hey, I just had a thought! [DOH!!! Just forgot
it!].

Forget such a momentous occasion? I don't think so!
:)

Anyway, if
>anybody's interrested, why doesn't the list run down
what your favorite
>Shadowrun novels were [top 4] and why. Just curious
what everybody has
>to say.
>
>
> I guess to kick it off, my favorite Shadowrun
novels [in order]
>are:

<snip>

>Well, those are my selections. What are yours?

1)Burning Bright
Chicago is my favorite place to run (although
Denver's a close second).

2)Changling
An intelligent troll who's philosophy isn't "Let's
break da bastard down!" (Racial maxes are stupid)

Shawn
Pretty much dug 'em all.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Out of the gutter and into your mailer!

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Message no. 15
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 01:57:43 -0500
> Was Faces of Death a good film? Would Jeffery Dahmer or Charles Manson
make
> a good hero for your story?

While I agree with you that Striper was not the best SR book - IMO the
morality of a character has little to do with their suitablity for the
protagonist role.
Speaking about SR fiction, and cyberpunk fiction in general, morality is
almost a second concern.
A character should be well rounded - Striper was not.
Dirty Dirk from 2XS was, and that's why he was a good character.
It wasn't his morality - he was a failed Lone Star Cop - sure he had noble
ambitions and goals, but he had also done some nasty jobs in his day, and
had his fair share of bigotry - remember how he hated runners at the start
of the book?

The best characters in cyberpunk fiction are IMO the amoral losers that
make good.
The rough and ready runners that have lived a hard life, but come out
better for it.

Kyle from Burning Bright is an excellent example.
He is cocky, arrogant, and neglects his wife and kids.
He is IMO a total mercenary, working wherever people can pay for his
magical services.
His background shows him to be the only "pinkskin" in an Amerind tribe to
grow up a hermetic rather than follow a totem.

While Striper was certainly a weak character, IMO her lack of morality was
not the cause of this.
If anything, her lack of morality was her one redeeming feature!
(Bear in mind that Striper spent a good portion of the novel under the
mental control of a REAL bastard!)

MORAL does not equal WELL DEVELOPED ... :-)

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com/users/bluewizard
"Hoo-Hah! Thrown to the weasels again!"
Message no. 16
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 01:12:27 -0700
At 23:39 3/26/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>3> Striper Assassin
>>>> Now, I REALLY hated this one. The character ws an amoral
>>>>S.O.B. I could neither emphathize with nor care about. Her mental
>>>True. In retrospect, I should change this one. I didn't really like
>>Hmm... I don't see why the antagonist being amoral has ANYTHING to do
>>with whether it's a good book or not...
>
>Was Faces of Death a good film? Would Jeffery Dahmer or Charles Manson make
>a good hero for your story?

I'll get to the rest of the thread after replying to this, but I had to
respond to this one real soon now.
Would Dahmer or Manson make a good hero? I think you're taking whoever
said it out of context (I lost who said it..sorry)
A hero changes from different peoples POV. You tend to get behind
different people from your perspective. I'll use a real life example,
that most of you are probably familar with to some extent;

My X don't really like the internet. Fill in X with parents, girlfriend,
boyfriend, wife, bi-sexual arabian lover, whatever works for you.
I happen to love the internet, as you can probably tell. I view the
internet as something that is both good for me and fun, my X thinks I'm
wasting my time. Sound familar?
If I wrote a book about the internet (which I'm likely to do, when I have
time.), I would portray it as I see it, which is a good thing. If X wrote
it, they would most likely not. Different POV. If X read my book, they
would likely be displeased, if I read X's book, I would most likely
displeased.
Clear as mud, right?

Ok..back to serial killers and books.
I could read a book with a hard-assed serial killer as a character, and
probably end up rooting for him. I'm like that. I like evil to be
portrayed as real, not some watered down shit. If you give me some polly
pure hero, I probably wouldn't like it so much.
Difference? Manson was interesting. I watch the movie about it whenever
it comes on the tube with interest. It's hard to explain why I find serial
killers and other assorted bad-asses interesting, and it would most
certainly spark a huge moral argument, the likes of which I don't like.
Ok..I think I started this email with a point..*rummages around* Here it is!
Point: POV changes everything. Morals are made to be broken. What is good
for one is not always good for the other. Etc :)

BTW, I also hated Striper Assasin. She, while being partially bad-ass,
didn't have a round bad-ass, but a rather flat bad-ass, almost like an **&*
character :)

-Adam

PS: Anyone installed Red Hat linux that they've downloaded from the net?
I'm hoping to do it (Actually, I had hoped to have Done it, but I'm running
into stupid-problems-only-fro-gets). If you have installed it, please drop
me a mail :)
Message no. 17
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:19:26 GMT
> Well, those are my selections. What are yours?
>
I won't try and put stuff in order too much but.
It is also a few year since i read some of them.

Dead Air, Burning bright, 2XS.
These were all good, for varying reasons.
Dead air's characters are really in it, ok they are preety good but
this is running, i like the tricks with the bikes, and a really good
riggers book.

Burning Bright is good for background on Chicago, i like Kyle a mage
that knows what he's doing and the results of things are believable
Pity it plays MORE than a bit loose with what SR magic can do but, at
least most books stay in the 'it doesn't say you cannot do that'
category on wierd plot helping.


I like parts of others as well, I for example rather like Serrin, in
whichever book though some of the folks he goes about with are rather
powerful and although the charcter stuff with Serrin and co in Black
Maddona is nice the plots too much form here to there to there
following Leo's ego.

Quite a few of the novels give nice insights into... or are fun to
read despite having various shortcommings.

Mark
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:36:12 -0500
>Speaking about SR fiction, and cyberpunk fiction in general, morality is
>almost a second concern.
>A character should be well rounded - Striper was not.

True.....but the characters that are my favorites will be moral, to some degree.

>Dirty Dirk from 2XS was, and that's why he was a good character.
>It wasn't his morality - he was a failed Lone Star Cop - sure he had noble
>ambitions and goals, but he had also done some nasty jobs in his day, and
>had his fair share of bigotry - remember how he hated runners at the start
>of the book?

Are you mixing Dirk w/ the guy from Lone Wolf? I don't recall Dirk having
anything against runners....just cyberware. Dirk WAS a runner....even if he
wasn't big-name.

>The best characters in cyberpunk fiction are IMO the amoral losers that
>make good.
>The rough and ready runners that have lived a hard life, but come out
>better for it.

Maybe I'm just an idealist...but I prefer characters who can be rough and
tough while still holding to some form of moral code. Kham the orc is a
fairly good example of this. I'm not looking for a paladin type....just
someone with some points I could admire.

>Kyle from Burning Bright is an excellent example.
>He is cocky, arrogant, and neglects his wife and kids.
>He is IMO a total mercenary, working wherever people can pay for his
>magical services.
>His background shows him to be the only "pinkskin" in an Amerind tribe to
>grow up a hermetic rather than follow a totem.

...meanwhile he still loves his wife and child, and goes to great lengths to
find them, not to mention that he CARES that the nuke could kill a lot of
people plus from his general attitude you can tell he isn't amoral.

>MORAL does not equal WELL DEVELOPED ... :-)
AMORAL does not equal WELL DEVELOPED
MORAL does not mean GOODY-GOODY

Basically it's like Kyle: He's a good guy. Not perfect, but he still wears
the white hat. That's something I need from my favorite heros.

Well-devloped or not is only slightly related to morality....that is a
seperate attribute.
-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 19
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 08:43:10 -0500
>>Was Faces of Death a good film? Would Jeffery Dahmer or Charles Manson make
>>a good hero for your story?

>I could read a book with a hard-assed serial killer as a character, and
>probably end up rooting for him. I'm like that. I like evil to be
>portrayed as real, not some watered down shit. If you give me some polly
>pure hero, I probably wouldn't like it so much.

>Difference? Manson was interesting. I watch the movie about it whenever
>it comes on the tube with interest. It's hard to explain why I find serial
>killers and other assorted bad-asses interesting, and it would most
>certainly spark a huge moral argument, the likes of which I don't like.

Okay, so here it comes down to a matter of personal taste. I certainly
enjoy swapping POV's, and I can understand taking the role of the bad
guy....but in the end, if someone is anti-moral or amoral, I don't like him.
Again, I'm not saying I want a paladin character....but then again, I don't
want someone who shoots poor kids in the head for fun either.

>Ok..I think I started this email with a point..*rummages around* Here it is!
>Point: POV changes everything. Morals are made to be broken. What is good
>for one is not always good for the other. Etc :)

BUZZZ! While you might enjoy watching a Manson story, I wouldn't. Moral
appeal is a matter of personal taste. Most villains aren't in the Manson
category. Most villains have their own moral code. It's the ones that
don't that I can't stomach as heros.

>BTW, I also hated Striper Assasin. She, while being partially bad-ass,
>didn't have a round bad-ass, but a rather flat bad-ass, almost like an **&*
>character :)

Take that back or my half-drow/half-grey-elf/half-orc (he's very large) will
come and kick your butt with his Girdle of Fire Giant strength and
two-handed Broadsword+6. :)

Again, I stress that my liking of Striper was for the value of the
shapeshifter mindset rather than for story or round-character value.

>PS: Anyone installed Red Hat linux that they've downloaded from the net?
>I'm hoping to do it (Actually, I had hoped to have Done it, but I'm running
>into stupid-problems-only-fro-gets). If you have installed it, please drop
>me a mail :)

I just put in Debian, but I copied it off of somoone's HD.
-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 20
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 13:35:05 -0500
>Brett wrote:
<snip>
>>The best characters in cyberpunk fiction are IMO the amoral losers that
>>make good.
>>The rough and ready runners that have lived a hard life, but come out
>>better for it.
>
<snip>
>Maybe I'm just an idealist...but I prefer characters who can be rough and
>tough while still holding to some form of moral code. Kham the orc is a
>fairly good example of this. I'm not looking for a paladin type....just
>someone with some points I could admire.
>
<snip>
>>MORAL does not equal WELL DEVELOPED ... :-)
>AMORAL does not equal WELL DEVELOPED
>MORAL does not mean GOODY-GOODY


There's a line from the comic book GRIMJACK [now HERE"S a Shadowrun
Burnt out mage cum street sam!!!] that's a favorite of mine.

Scene: at his childhood home, where his uncle is consoling Grimmy after
his father beat him...
'You have to understand. It's not your father's fault. He's just a good
man whose not very nice. While I <take a shot of whisky> am a nice man,
whose not very good.'


Just thought I'd share that.
Message no. 21
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 11:23:32 +1000
> 2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
> All the old gang are back, and it's got Leonardo
> DaVinci to boot [yes, I'm a big Leo fan, too]
> 3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
> It starts out at a leisurely pace, then picks up
> like Aliens on speed! It's a rush to read.
> 4) Night's Pawn by Tom Dowd
> A mysterious runner trying to retire, but his
> past won't let him. Cross-country chases, and
> well paced action, with a cool central character.

Typical. The three of the best four Shadowrun novels are the only three I
haven't read yet.

Ray
Message no. 22
From: Tim P Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 22:34:44 EST
On Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:39:23 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:

>>Hmm... I don't see why the antagonist being amoral has ANYTHING to do
>>with whether it's a good book or not...
>
>Was Faces of Death a good film? Would Jeffery Dahmer or Charles
>Manson make a good hero for your story?
>

Who said the antagonist had to be a *hero(ine)*?

~Tim (who never saw Faces of Death..)
Message no. 23
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:13:18 +1000
>
> 1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
> I love murder mysteries, stories on Jack the
> Ripper, and England. It also introduced some of my favorite
> Shadowrun characters.
> 2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
> All the old gang are back, and it's got Leonardo
> DaVinci to boot [yes, I'm a big Leo fan, too]


Die Die DIe
Die Die Die
Die Die Die
Die Die Die
Die Die Die

Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel (I haven't actually read
Worlds Without End.....) precisely because of the
'wonderful elves (immortal and otherwise) save the world.... again'
syndrome.

> 3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd
> It starts out at a leisurely pace, then picks up
> like Aliens on speed! It's a rush to read.

All time number one, as far as I'm concerned... but then I really love
anarchy, etc.

Into the Shadows was pretty good, and so were a few of the other Dowd and
Findley books..... the other ones are mediocre

Bleach
Message no. 24
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:16:49 +1000
> >1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
>
> Blah. I found this to one of the worst....a weak plot line, overly powerful
> characters, and several elements I just didn't like. SEcond worst.
>
> >2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
>
> Here you found the only book I like less that Streets of Blood. A weaker
> plot line, with even MORE overly powerful characters, along with some
> revisionist religious sludge thrown in. Worst Novel to date.
>

Well, I feel a bit better now....... I'm personally of the opinion that
Sargent and Gascoigne are Tolkeinists (elf fetishists), and that kinda
rubs me the wrong way.

> Note some of the common themes in my selections: Low-power runners, strong
> plots, and well-developed and _ROUND_ characters. (A street Sam that can
> kill you in 1001 ways may be detailed but he isn't ROUND!)
>

True enough..... also, many of the books end up with the main characters
saving the world... As far as I'm concerned that isn't in the cyberpunk
(Gibsonesque) style that Shadowrun is all about.

Bleach
Message no. 25
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 17:23:10 +1000
> >>1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

[snip explanation about realistic characters, etc.]

> >>2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
> >Ditto for this one.

Especially in this book.... Even the most realistic and rounded characters
won't save a book if the whole tone is towards munchikism... I mean,
being able to call on a cyberzombie as a pal, and the whole of the SAS??

That doesn't even remotely relate to the level at which our gaming style
operates.... And I'd say that's why a lot of people have trouble liking
the novel.

> The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
> D&D.

No- Low level is not being able to single handedly save the world, as
opposed to Black Madonna.

[snip the rest]

Bugger it... I don't like the same things you like, and if I keep on
argueing it's going to get us nowhere.....

Bleach
Message no. 26
From: NightLife <habenir@******.SAN.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 02:48:35 -0500
At 05:16 PM 3/28/97 +1000, you wrote:
>> >1) Streets of Blood by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

While it was only a Ok book at least it had your friend and mine Jack the
Ripper.

>> >2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne

>Well, I feel a bit better now....... I'm personally of the opinion that
>Sargent and Gascoigne are Tolkeinists (elf fetishists), and that kinda
>rubs me the wrong way.

I'll wait until I finish this one before I comment. But yes many of the FASA
staff do seem to love elves. Do the SR world a favor kill an elf.

> 3) Burning Bright by Tom Dowd

Definately one of the better read concering game fiction.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ah at last! The TRANSFORMATION is complete!
For YEARS they mocked me! They took the name EMMANUEL LEWIS in vain!
But tonight RETRIBUTION will be mine!
For I am REBORN as --WEBSTER--, The adorable scamp of DOOM!
Ma'am's and Georges beware Webster walks the earth and he's got a
HANKERIN' for some SPANKERIN'!

Man did I nail this mad doctor routine or WHAT?
"Deadpool #4"

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 27
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 07:47:00 -0500
>
> Well, I feel a bit better now....... I'm personally of the opinion that
> Sargent and Gascoigne are Tolkeinists (elf fetishists), and that kinda
> rubs me the wrong way.
>

That whole elf thing is one of the main things that bug me about the
shadowrun universe. I can see the elves being powerful, but supposedly
there are other groups that can match them in power, but they are never
really fleshed out. The Tir's paths are described. Azeland's varient is
just mentioned. No ideas are given about how these various warrior
initiatary groups are different from anything else. Or the english
druidic groups with are in charge of magical laws in England. From what I
can understand, this group is powerful to seriously annoy the elves from
Tir na nOg, but there isn't really even innunedos given, which makes it
really difficult to make any adventure concerning them. I would have to
agree that alot of the authors seem preferial to elves. Look at the elves
in general -- more magical, generally richer, better looking, longer
living, ect. Then compare to orcs -- stupid, smelling, low-life
creatures. Personnally, I think ED is alot more balanced in the
relationship between the races, but then everyone has just gotten
seriously fragged by the horrors. I just can wait until the mana level
rises enough that the genes altered by the Ritual of Thorns kick in. That
will make life really interesting for the elves.

I hope this was coherent. I know what I was trying to say, but I don't
know if I managed to say it...
Message no. 28
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:26:41 -0500
>Martin said:
>> >>2) Black Madonna by Carl Sargent & Marc Gascoigne
>> >Ditto for this one.
>
>Especially in this book.... Even the most realistic and rounded characters
>won't save a book if the whole tone is towards munchikism... I mean,
being able to call on a cyberzombie as a pal, and the whole of the SAS??
The gentleman in question for the record, wasn't a cyberzombie, just a
>guy with a good deal of cyberware and a bad attitude.

>That doesn't even remotely relate to the level at which our gaming style
>operates.... And I'd say that's why a lot of people have trouble liking
>the novel.
>
>> The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
>> D&D.
>
>No- Low level is not being able to single handedly save the world, as
opposed to Black Madonna.
Black madonna isn't the only Shadowrun novel guilty of this. Many of you
can cite a few other examples.

>[snip the rest]
>
>Bugger it... I don't like the same things you like, and if I keep on
>argueing it's going to get us nowhere.....

But that's the whole point of this dialog. To give readers who
haven't seen or read these books a chance to know what they're like, and
go out and pick them up for themselves.
Personally, what you like is what you like; it's not going to
change how I feel about something. However, if your comments are
particularly insightful [from a literary, NOT game] point of view, it
might influence how I see something.


Kohl
Message no. 29
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 10:48:27 -0500
Midn wrote:
>That whole elf thing is one of the main things that bug me about the
>shadowrun universe. I can see the elves being powerful,
<snip>
>I would have to
>agree that alot of the authors seem preferial to elves. Look at the elves
>in general -- more magical, generally richer, better looking, longer
>living, ect. Then compare to orcs -- stupid, smelling, low-life
>creatures.
<snip>

I agree, many of the Shadowrun novels seem slanted toward the 'Elf
Uber Alles' ideal; and seem to portray the other races like orks,
trolls, etc. as dumb, 'ghettoish', dregs of society. Only in a few
novels [like Changeling] was the [in this case] main character, a troll
,depicted as a normal 'human being'. Don't single out Sargeant and Mr.
G., they aren't the only ones guilty of it.
I particularly liked their character Rani, the Indian ork girl from
the Punjabi caste. It read as very real to me [ and to a female friend
of mine, who is also of the actual caste mentioned].
My favorite character I play is an ork. [elves were okay, but just
a little too 'perfect' for my tastes. Perfect is the wrong word, but I
can't think of a more suitable one right now]
In ALMOST all the novels for Shadowrun written to date, orks and
trolls are shown as grunt work thugs, and strongarms men.
In Nosferatu, the troll, Tom, was shown as a 'real' character, not
some stereotypical version of 'Neil the Ork Barbarian'. Not all orks and
trolls are born speaking gutter slang.
One example of a different depictions of an ork was by Stackpole in
his short stories. The ork in question was intelligent, a former Harvard
graduate, but still felt the sting of prejudice because of his race.
I agree, therre should be more work done on the other powerful
groups besides the elves [ I happen to like the Jesuits Hands Of God
spec forces team, from Black Madonna, especially since I attended a
Jesuit school, and could see the humor of it ;-]. Most likely, we'll
have to do it ourselves.
I [probably more than ANYONE!] HATE Tolkein, and would NEVER be
able to have read Sargent and Gascoigne's books if they really slanted
in that direction. [Don't TALK to me about
HOBBITS.BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
To reiterate, these two aren't the only ones to perpetrate this line of
thinking.
Message no. 30
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:01:40 -0500
Martin said:
>> The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
>> D&D.
>
>No- Low level is not being able to single handedly save the world, as
>opposed to Black Madonna.


Quite a few of the Shadowrun books [The Secrets of Power Trilogy, House
of the Rising Sun, etc.] are 'guilty' of the 'save the world' storyline.
There's nothing wrong with this, as long as it isn't OVERDONE story
after story after story [that's one reason I stopped reading X-Men].
The trick is to make the victory mean something on the PERSONAL
level. Something I, as a reader, can relate to.
And, for the record, the characters in Black Madonna DIDN'T save
the world single handed; they were just SPOLIERS ALERT! SPOILERS ALERT!
DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU DON"T WISH TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE
STORYLINE!!! part of a larger scheme like everyone else, ultimately
being manipulated by 'LEO'.
In Streets of Blood, they really got their chains jerked. All the
'chance' happenstance circumstances you saw, were actually the
machinations of Mr. Smythe and Mr. Jones. 'There are no chance
occurances'.
Don't compare the storyline of a book to your own games. Judge them
in and of themselves.
Message no. 31
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 11:05:27 -0500
Martin said:
>Die Die DIe
>Die Die Die
>Die Die Die
>Die Die Die
>Die Die Die
>
>Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
>ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel


You still haven't said what YOUR favorite Shadowrun books are?
Message no. 32
From: Jak Koke <jkoke@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 12:20:55 -0800
Frag! There are way too many comments for me to respond to them all. That's
what I get for subscribing to the digest form of the list. <sigh>

I did want to comment on the availability of the last two novels, Lucifer
Deck and Steel Rain, I think. According to FASA's web page distributors can
only get these through Roc. Usually FASA buys a bunch from Roc and sells
them to distributors, this way the game stores get them a month or so before
the book stores. They didn't do this with the last two books, and it's my
guess that they won't for the upcoming novels either. Perhaps the novels
aren't selling out of game stores as well as they used to, perhaps there 're
other reasons.

This is true only for novels, and I am speculating. I don't work at FASA, I
just freelance and know a good deal about the book industry.

My suggestion is to wait and get it from a local bookstore, or tell your
game store to contact Roc (you can get the ISBN# from the FASA catalog or
web page), or you can contact Roc yourself and order the book. Game book
distributors may not have contracts with traditional New York publishing
houses and may not want to make the extra effort just to keep one or two SR
novels in game stores.

As far as how _I_ write, and why I enjoy putting down the details...

First I plot the book out, create characters, figure out what their story
is, and how it fits in with the plot. I write up character histories (for
myself only) and I outline the book chapter by chapter. This takes a while,
and it's fun, but can also be agonizing. There are many, many things to
consider, far more than eventually ends up in the book. Theme, multiple
possibilities for plot twists that end up not working, characters who seem
cool, but turn out to be flat and end up either having to be reworked or cut
from the story. I do enjoy all this stuff, but it's a completely different
mental task from creating actual dialog and setting.

Both are necessary aspects of writing novels, and if you hate either one,
you probably won't like being a writer. As with any job, there are things
you have to do that you don't want to do. Personally, I don't like the
second rewrite. The outline and plotting and character development is fun,
and the first draft (except for the first few chapters) is a blast. The
first rewrite (or edit) is still somewhat fun because I'm fixing the major
flaws, but the second edit is nit picky details, spelling mistakes and
punctuation. It takes a frag of a lot of time to go through an entire novel
manuscript and fix a word here, a comma there. It's necessary, but I'm sick
of the book by that time and don't want to see it again by the time I'm done.

Usually the third edit is easier because my standard modus operandi is to
leave the book for at least two weeks while I work on something else. When I
come back for a final pass, it's a little more fresh.

--Jak

Jak Koke | "Though I am not naturally honest,
jkoke@****.edu | I am so sometimes by chance."
La Jolla, CA | --Shakespeare (The Winter's Tale)
Message no. 33
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:43:02 -0500
> I agree, many of the Shadowrun novels seem slanted toward the 'Elf
> Uber Alles' ideal; and seem to portray the other races like orks,
> trolls, etc. as dumb, 'ghettoish', dregs of society. Only in a few
> novels [like Changeling] was the [in this case] main character, a troll
> ,depicted as a normal 'human being'. Don't single out Sargeant and Mr.
> G., they aren't the only ones guilty of it.

Changling is actually one of my favorite novels. Really good character
development. I really liked how he was basically forced into a lifestyle
that conflicted with his dreams, and he eventually had to abandon it or
his dreams. I also really liked how he continuously fought to regain the
intelligence he had lost through his goblinization.

> I particularly liked their character Rani, the Indian ork girl from
> the Punjabi caste. It read as very real to me [ and to a female friend
> of mine, who is also of the actual caste mentioned].
> My favorite character I play is an ork. [elves were okay, but just
> a little too 'perfect' for my tastes. Perfect is the wrong word, but I
> can't think of a more suitable one right now]
> In ALMOST all the novels for Shadowrun written to date, orks and
> trolls are shown as grunt work thugs, and strongarms men.
> In Nosferatu, the troll, Tom, was shown as a 'real' character, not
> some stereotypical version of 'Neil the Ork Barbarian'. Not all orks and
> trolls are born speaking gutter slang.

yea, I liked Tom.

> One example of a different depictions of an ork was by Stackpole in
> his short stories. The ork in question was intelligent, a former Harvard
> graduate, but still felt the sting of prejudice because of his race.
> I agree, therre should be more work done on the other powerful
> groups besides the elves [ I happen to like the Jesuits Hands Of God
> spec forces team, from Black Madonna, especially since I attended a
> Jesuit school, and could see the humor of it ;-]. Most likely, we'll
> have to do it ourselves.

Yes, I agree. One thing I have been wondering about is if there is a
dwarven nation. I really wouldn't be surprised if there was one or two
immortal dwarven. The thing is, a dwarven nation would probably be in the
mountains somewhere. Himalayees, Rockies, ect. I wonder who has control
over the old SAC headquarters. That could be a perfect place of 'the King
under the mountain."

> I [probably more than ANYONE!] HATE Tolkein, and would NEVER be
> able to have read Sargent and Gascoigne's books if they really slanted
> in that direction. [Don't TALK to me about
> HOBBITS.BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!!]
> To reiterate, these two aren't the only ones to perpetrate this line of
> thinking.
>

I really don't mind the Tolkein elves because they are fundimentally
different from the SR elves. Tolkein elves are a race in descent..yes,
they are powerful, but they are fading. Tolkein's elves are almost alien
in their mindset. SR elves are very 'human', ie selfish,powerhungry, ect.
The immortal elves seem even worse than the race in general. It seems
like their immortality has made them basically self-serving, some more
than others. I don't know...SR elves seem to have all of the physical and
magical traits of elves without any of the mindset or morals of elves...
I guess that is what really annoys me.
Message no. 34
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 15:47:05 -0500
>
> Quite a few of the Shadowrun books [The Secrets of Power Trilogy, House
> of the Rising Sun, etc.] are 'guilty' of the 'save the world' storyline.
> There's nothing wrong with this, as long as it isn't OVERDONE story
> after story after story [that's one reason I stopped reading X-Men].
> The trick is to make the victory mean something on the PERSONAL
> level. Something I, as a reader, can relate to.
> And, for the record, the characters in Black Madonna DIDN'T save
> the world single handed; they were just SPOLIERS ALERT! SPOILERS ALERT!
> DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU DON"T WISH TO KNOW SOMETHING ABOUT THE
> STORYLINE!!! part of a larger scheme like everyone else, ultimately
> being manipulated by 'LEO'.
> In Streets of Blood, they really got their chains jerked. All the
> 'chance' happenstance circumstances you saw, were actually the
> machinations of Mr. Smythe and Mr. Jones. 'There are no chance
> occurances'.
> Don't compare the storyline of a book to your own games. Judge them
> in and of themselves.
>
Streets of Blood was one of my favorite novels concept wise. I think too
often shadowrunners think they are so smart and hot stuff, when for a
corp, 99.9% of shadowrunners are just minor details. You use them when
you need them, ignore them when you don't, and if they bug you, you squash
them. I really liked how the Corp was able to decieve the shadowrunners
into them achieve a goal that is opposite what they would have actually
wanted.
Message no. 35
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Book Review
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 14:53:40 -0700
Jak Koke wrote:
|
| As far as how _I_ write, and why I enjoy putting down the details...

[snip]

That's the best "how to write a book" I've ever read. How come they
don't teach that in college?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 36
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Fri, 28 Mar 1997 23:30:59 -0500
>>> The way you keep quoting low level, I'd think you were playing
>>> D&D.
>>
>>No- Low level is not being able to single handedly save the world, as
>opposed to Black Madonna.
>Black madonna isn't the only Shadowrun novel guilty of this. Many of you
>can cite a few other examples.

Actually I disagree.....Take House of the Sun....Dirk isn't a powerful
character....his actions are only more admirable because of it. Low-level
can save the world...the difference is in how it is done.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 37
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 15:41:06 +1000
> >Die Die DIe
> >Die Die Die
> >Die Die Die
> >Die Die Die
> >Die Die Die
> >
> >Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
> >ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel
>
>
> You still haven't said what YOUR favorite Shadowrun books are?
>

Fair enough...... Most of them don't stand out enough for me to remeber
the titles.... In the main I've read many far more interesting books over
the years.

I'm not pouring crap upon shadowrun novels per se, but I'm not a fan of
serialised fiction (look to T$R's many pointless novels, or the Star Wars
crap currently pouring out like a sewer).

Anyway, here's the list, or at least those that stick out enough to be
memorable. (In no particular order)

1. Burning Bright
2. 2XS
3. Into the Shadows

As far as good books to read, I'd recommend all of Gibson's stuff, as
well as Tad William's newest one; Otherlands.

Ciao.

Bleach
Message no. 38
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@*******.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 1997 09:58:40 +1000
> Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
> ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel (I haven't actually read
> Worlds Without End.....) precisely because of the
> 'wonderful elves (immortal and otherwise) save the world.... again'
> syndrome.

Umm, they don't save the world. They bring it closer to the edge.

Ray
Message no. 39
From: Midn Daniel O Fredrikson <m992148@****.NAVY.MIL>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 1997 21:13:13 -0500
> > Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
> > ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel (I haven't actually read
> > Worlds Without End.....) precisely because of the
> > 'wonderful elves (immortal and otherwise) save the world.... again'
> > syndrome.
>
> Umm, they don't save the world. They bring it closer to the edge.

Yep, the good 'old' IE decide that the horror in the world isn't that big
of a problem, since it is only bugging one of them. Got to love that kind
of relationship...
Message no. 40
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 10:13:15 -0500
Martin said:
>As far as good books to read, I'd recommend all of Gibson's stuff, as
>well as Tad William's newest one; Otherlands.

Well, this is why I glad this threads up and running. I've heard
about a few novels I wasn't aware of before.
A couple of people have posted one called 'Otherlands'. Could
someone please give me a little precis on it. I'm not a fan of 'pure'
fantasy at all, and could never get into Tad Williams, but this one
looks interresting.



Kohl
Message no. 41
From: "Fisher, Victor" <Victor-Fisher@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 14:54:50 -0500
Ray and Tamara said:
>> Umm, please don't take the above personally, it's just that that novel
>> ranks as my all time lowest shadowrun novel (I haven't actually read
>> Worlds Without End.....) precisely because of the
>> 'wonderful elves (immortal and otherwise) save the world.... again'
>> syndrome.
>
>Umm, they don't save the world. They bring it closer to the edge.


Yup. Them immortal 'Highlander' elves playing their games of
intrigue, with the fate of the world at stake [almost as bad as those
damn vampires! :-]
Message no. 42
From: "MARTIN E. GOTTHARD" <s457033@*******.GU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Tue, 1 Apr 1997 09:34:10 +1000
> >As far as good books to read, I'd recommend all of Gibson's stuff, as
> >well as Tad William's newest one; Otherlands.
>
> Well, this is why I glad this threads up and running. I've heard
> about a few novels I wasn't aware of before.
> A couple of people have posted one called 'Otherlands'. Could
> someone please give me a little precis on it. I'm not a fan of 'pure'
> fantasy at all, and could never get into Tad Williams, but this one
> looks interresting.
>
I don't kow how to describe it, really..... It's set in a Cyberpunk world
where ther net plays more of a part in everyday life than in Gibson's
books Things like virtual malls to hang out in are a big feature.

Basically people are finding the net is a nicer place to hang out in than
RL and are essentially giving RL up as a consequence. I can't really tell
you that much more without going int' plot details, except to say that a
whole bunch of kids end up in comas as a result of the net.

The books really well written, though kinda long. If you're interested
in what the internet could become, and what it would do to society, read it.

Bleach
Message no. 43
From: Toaster <toaster@************.COM>
Subject: Re: Book Review!!!
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 1997 20:41:26 -0800
> >> 'wonderful elves (immortal and otherwise) save the world.... again'
> >> syndrome.
> >
> >Umm, they don't save the world. They bring it closer to the edge.
>
> Yup. Them immortal 'Highlander' elves playing their games of
> intrigue, with the fate of the world at stake [almost as bad as those
> damn vampires! :-]

Yeah! Damn Elves!!!!!
okay, on a more relevant note, I have a question to ask of everyone.!
It concerns VR2.0, which since i hear very little about it i assume most
people
dont know very much about it (and about decking in general)
it concerns the ratings of bod/sensor/mask/evade in relation to the MPCP
say the MPCP is 8, and i have a masking of 8.
when i go into masking mode, increasing my masking to 1.5X, does the new
rating
of 12 break the max-persona-rating rule or is it allowable..?
i believe it is allowable because it only represents increased (almost
jury-rigged)
allocated resources, but was looking for other opinions since the book
didnt
say it was allowable or wasn't allowable.
anyway
Cyberspunk

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