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Message no. 1
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 00:54:42 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] *Doc' cowers in fear, hiding from the books he's
] coming to hate, but knows he must acquire in order to
] complete his SR collection...*

Gee, Doc'. I hate to present the obvious solution, but why don't you
only buy the products you like?

-Boondocker

P.S. If you say "Because then I'll be missing canon material that
might be referenced in a vague but infuriating way in later products,"
then I'll sigh, and bow to your argument.
Message no. 2
From: Scott W iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 01:25:31 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Rand Ratinac."
] > Gee, Doc'. I hate to present the obvious
] solution, but why don't you only buy the products you
] like?
] >
] > -Boondocker
] >
] > P.S. If you say "Because then I'll be missing canon
] material that might be referenced in a vague but
] infuriating way in later products," then I'll sigh,
] and bow to your argument.
]
] No. Because I'm a magpie.

Oh. Well, good then. I'd hate to think you too were a slave to
FASA's marketing, and a completionist to boot.

You're a magpie. Good.

-Boondocker
Message no. 3
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 22:46:01 EDT
In a message dated 10/19/1999 8:41:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

> *Doc' cowers in fear, hiding from the books he's
> coming to hate, but knows he must acquire in order to
> complete his SR collection...*

(*K comforst Doc' because he knows that the future is such a confusing, grey,
area of interest these days....*)
Message no. 4
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 1999 23:25:28 EDT
In a message dated 10/20/1999 12:57:34 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
anders@**********.com writes:

>
> Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California, Sig, I actually liked
> parts of Forever Drug, and I would like to know what you really were
> bothered by that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr politics).
> Elucidate? --Anders
S
P
O
I
L
E
R

S
P
A
C
E

S
I
N
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E

S
O
M
E

O
N
E

M
A
Y

C
A
R
E

Okay, I'll comment. Epic descriptions aside, Romulus acting and reacting in
the manner that he did absolutely sucked. I have friends who deal with
wolves on a daily basis, and I've had friends who have worked with Great Cats
most of their professional lives (may Joy rest in peace).

What Ms. Smedman had Romulus behaving like utterly stunned me. Wolves don't
"breed out" their character traits so quickly as Romulus apparently has. He
acts like a fu@**** puppy most of the time. And I don't know what it is that
*ANY* of the authors whom have dealt with Shapeshifters in the SR Novels,
"Dual Nature" means seeing things "simultaneously" on both planes.
Having
Romulus (and Striper in "Striper Assassin") needing some form of
concentration to "switch" to viewing the astral just about made me vomit.

That doesn't even count the ending with its' oh-so-nifty brush off of the
woman who is wisked away by "Big Bad Lofwyr". Its' another of those
"Immortal Elves and Great Dragons" endings that I have come to really
dislike. Don't get me wrong, I do like the concept themselves, but the
implementation that oh so many of the authors out there have taken with
regards to such beings makes me sick. I'm actually *very* happy that Steve
K. has yet to touch on this area until his next book (Ragnarok IIRC). I'm
really hoping he does it a bit better (I'm secretly hoping Lofwyr gets *HIS*
now) than previous writers have.

Lets' see, what else? Oh I know, the "wiping out of the memory" at the end
of the book. That is something that is a *VERY* personal distaste of mine.
From a game mechanics POV, this is a "Karma Theft" on the part of the GM.
Without the memories/experiences to understand, there is no development on
the part of the character.

Sure, as a tragedy the book succeeded. But as an overall good read, I was
miffed 100% and beyond. It made the whole idea of shapeshifters a joke IMO.

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 5
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 03:49:41 EDT
In a message dated 10/20/1999 11:16:32 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon101@*****.com writes:

>
> K, you sounded like you were annoyed by the book. What
> about it didn't you like?

Refer to other post ;)

-K
[Hoosier Hacker House]
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/intro.htm]
ICQ#-51511837
Message no. 6
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:34:59 -0400
At 08:27 PM 10/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>F
>O
>R
>E
>V
>E
>R
>
>D
>R
>U
>G
>
>S
>U
>X
>
>H
>A
>R
>D
>
>R
>O
>C
>K
>S
>!
>
>It's Doc'. But anyway...:)
>
>Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
>problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
>dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
>everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
>CRAP!!!

Crap that it would work or crap that he would try it? I have to finish
reading dragons, but isn't that how some of those elves got so long lived?

>Even if it wasn't such a stupid idea to begin with,
>there's no WAY a dragon of Dunkelzahn's intelligence
>would go in for that. There's a reason people grow old
>and die. Leaving out anything religious, if we DIDN'T,
>the world wouldn't be able to support our population.
>We're already pushing it as it is, and despite VITAS,
>it wouldn't take long at all for the world's
>population to push past where we're at now. Anyone
>with half a brain would realise it's a bad idea.

Some of that is very misleading. Currently the world just topped 6 billion.
10 years ago the projections for world population in 2050 were around 16
billion. The latest projections place it more like 10 billion in 2050. One
of the biggest reasons for this is there has been a tendency across the
world for lowered birthrates. Throw in something like VITAS, and the world
could conceivably be much less crowded in 2060 then it is now.

Second, the amount of people that the planet can support is a very nebulous
number. The amount of food produced in the world rose something to
something like 10 times the amount grown 40 years ago. Unlike many of the
famines that occurred in Africa in the 80's because of bad conditions, the
famines of the 90's have been mostly political. Russia, North Korea, China
all have problems with communism simply not getting the job done. Africa
continues it political problems which contribute to its general mess.

People living longer is not necessarily a bad thing. If they stay healthier
during that time, and not just live longer but require more resources. If a
human lived consistently until 120, he would probably be considered middle
age well into his 70's-80's. How much more work could he do during that time?

>So then you have the reverse option - Dunkelzahn did
>it to SHORTEN the lives of people, as Lofwyr implied.
>Actually, he didn't directly imply that, but he did
>imply that Dunkelzahn had an ulterior motive which
>wasn't a good one for the general population. Which
>just kinda ticks me off, as I'm a big Dunkelzahn fan.
>*shrug*

Remember that its what Lofwyr IMPLIED was an ulterior motive. When you're a
paranoid SOB who uses everyone around you like chess pieces, you tend to
think the rest of your peers act like that. He might not be capable of
thinking that D would do otherwise, since he would have had at least 3
plots built into this one.

Also, there is the whole D as maverick route. He liked people, and pissed
off a lot of elves and dragons in the process. He had gotten in trouble
several times with them several times, and when against all dragon
tradition when he made out a will in the first place. He did what he
thought was right, not what everyone else thought. So maybe he did it just
to level the playing field a little. Elves live to about 120-140, dwarves
almost as much. Why should they have all of the fun and the other 3 races
get screwed?

Besides, he got to tweak the IE's one more time from beyond the grave. :)

>Anyway, then you have, as Jett mentioned, the way the
>book really had very little to do with the blurb and
>that it didn't get there in a particularly logical
>fashion.

True, the blurb was misleading, but so what? I was pleasantly surprised
that it followed off in a different direction. How many times in life have
you gotten involved in one thing and then had it lead off into another
completely different place? Personally I like those kind of stories AND
runs if I'm involved with them.

How about the simple datasteal run on the corp? The runners make the grab
and off they go. On the way out, the sam notices something for a second and
thinks nothing of it. Meanwhile, the security puke is frantic that the
runners noticed his little smuggling ring for the yakuza, and suddenly the
team has ninjas trying to kill them for a job against Ares!

The point is, you never know where life is going to go.

>What about the Jewel of Memory? The whole concept is,
>to say the least, stupid. And the fact that Romulus
>could track Jane's memories by scent (astral scent,
>perhaps, but still)?

Yes, the Jewel was one of those Deux ex Machinas. Right it off as an
Earthdawn artifact that just sits there. With som many memories in it,
there is no way it could be used successfully except in a case like that
described in the book.

And I actually thought the smell part was a nice twist. This came up before
about astral perception being described that way because humans are for the
most part visual creatures. For an animal, it might be much easier to
process the information as scent instead.


>Eeeuurrrgh. Get it away from me.
>
>Sorry, Anders, but this one just leaps out at me as a
>crap book. It's not something I can totally quantify,
>but look at it. Then look at 2XS, or House of the Sun,
>or Wolf and Raven, or (my personal favourite)
>Shadowplay. I'm afraid it's just not in the same
>class.

I definitely have to agree that 2XS and House of the sun were 2 of the
best. But Findley was the man when it came to this stuff. Not too many did
it better. But I did like this one for a different point of view to the
whole concept.

>====>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 7
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:39:08 -0400
At 09:14 AM 10/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> > F
> > O
> > R
> > E
> > V
> > E
> > R
> >
> > D
> > R
> > U
> > G
> >
> > S
> > U
> > X
> >
> > H
> > A
> > R
> > D
> >
> > R
> > O
> > C
> > K
> > S
> > !
> >
> > > Something isn't transmitting fro Oz to California,
> > Sig, I actually liked parts of Forever Drug, and I
> > would like to know what you really were bothered by
> > that hasn't been done before (like elf-dragon-Lofwyr
> > politics). Elucidate? --Anders
> >
> > It's Doc'. But anyway...:)
> >
> > Well, I didn't mind the politics. It happens. The MAIN
> > problem I had was with the forever drug itself. Using
> > dragon blood to activate the stopwatch complex in
> > everyone (the "all children born after Oct 2061" bit).
> > CRAP!!!
> >
> > <snip>
>
>Remembering, of course, that breeding with dragons is what gave the elves
>their first immortality. And that the effect of that was so horrific [hello,
>Alamaise, I thought you'd gone] that dragons were forever forbidden to do it
>again. That's why the Outcast was, well, cast out. That idea that another
>dragon would do this again, much less someone as respectful of tradition as
>Dunkelzahn, is rediculous. I've yet to read this one--it looked awful--but I
>think I'll read it, just to make certain how much the author screwed up the
>canon.

I would call D anything but respectful of tradition. He was warned several
times but the IEs and the great dragons about his meddling. He actually
tried to help humanity instead of manipulating them (cough, <Lowfyr>,
cought). Instead of letting the other dragons fight over his hoard, he gave
it away in a human will. He purposefully crafted his will to encourage
paths that would take away power from both the IEs and the dragons. And in
his interviews he gave away a whole bunch about the Awakening, pretty much
explaining the concept in his first one.

If anyone was going to do it again, it fit perfectly into his personality.


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 8
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:57:16 -0400
At 01:38 PM 10/21/99 , abortion_engine wrote:

<snip all sorts of stuff>

>Yes, he occasionally flew in the face of tradition, but even he felt some
>things were too awful to reproduce. Remember, he himself, IIRC, called the
>conclave to cast out the Outcast for creating the Deneirastas. At least this
>one thing, it seems unlikely he would do; it was anathema to him, and the
>greatest threat to peace in two of the three magical worlds.

Is this all in Dragons? I haven't had a chance to read the whole thing yet.
But I agree with you...so far.

>First, Alamaise makes a breed of the elves in Wyrm Wood immortal, by
>breeding with elven women, producing, first Caynreth, and then more. Then
>they rose against him, Caynreth herself striking a mortal blow to him.
>Hilarity ensues. Many of the problems of the Age of Dragons sprung from
>this.

Vaguely remember this.


>And then the Outcast's creation of the Deneirastas...whew. What a mess.

Dragons again?

>It just seems like The Big D would have had to have had some *incredibly*
>good reason to make the same stupid mistake, thus being cast out from dragon
>society himself. Sure, he skirted the edges of treason, but he never, ever,
>broke the rules while he lived.

He pulled some big ones though. I'd still refer to the will as the biggest
rule breaker of them all.

The other point I was trying to make was that trying to lengthen everyone's
lifespan a bit was different than creating immortals. The blood thing was
not supposed to make people immortal, just live a bit longer. Right now
elves (and to a lesser extent the dwarves) have the edge. They live almost
twice as long as humans, and more than that for trolls and orcs. They can
afford to take the long view and have more encompassing goals. If humans et
all lived that long, the playing field would be more level.

Compare that to making a small group of elves completely immortal,
something reserved only for dragons and spirits. Yes, in both cases the
dragon is playing with forces that he shouldn't. But one side is much more
likely to benefit all humanity than the other. That's why I could easily
see D doing it. Sure, there is a pretty good argument that it just
shouldn't be done. However, do you think that he couldn't have justified it
to himself, and decided that it was worth the risk?



Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 9
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:26:25 -0400
At 09:19 PM 10/21/99 , Rand Ratinac wrote:
>S
>P
>W
>O
>I
>L
>A
>
>S
>P
>A
>C
>E
>,
>
>L
>I
>K
>E
>,
>
>D
>U
>D
>E
> .
>.
> .
>
><BigSnip(TM)>
> > The other point I was trying to make was that trying
>to lengthen everyone's lifespan a bit was different
>than creating immortals. The blood thing was not
>supposed to make people immortal, just live a bit
>longer.
><Snippola(TM)>
> > Sommers
>
>Sommers, are you sure about that? I thought from what
>was originally said was that the serum was supposed to
>activate the "stopwatch complex" - which, yes, means
>immortality - that's what made the IEs I, according to
>Tir Tairngire and The Forever Drug.

The Forever Drug, pg 249:
"Dunkelzahn was the one who came up with the idea of working with newborns,
and disguising the gene therapy experiments as a vaccination program. he
was going to initiate his own UCAS-funded "vaccination" program last year.
He thought that, if the therapy were administered early enough in life, the
normal human and meat life span could be doubled, or even tripled..."

>Apart from that, Lofwyr said that Dunkelzahn was
>really trying to make a new race of servitors. That's
>crud - at least, if Dunkelzahn is anything like how
>he's portrayed in the Dragonheart Saga.

The Forever Drug, pg 259:
"Dunkelzahn didn't want to serve humanity. No, it was quite the other way
around. You were playing into his hands, helping him to create a new race
of servitors. The elves, you see, had become too independent, and the
drakes, well...they have their limitations.

That was Lowfyr;s interpretation. Mareth'riel thought that he might be
attempting to create a new form of metatype (pg 250, 251). But from
everything else about him, D tended to help people out who could then help
themsleves (Ryan, other runners in will).

>Of course, Lofwyr could just have been trying to smear
>Dunkelzahn. But even so, unless your interpretation is
>correct (can you provide some proof from the book? I
>don't have it with me, so I can't check), Dunkelzahn
>is still involved in making immortals - which I simply
>can't see from a being with his brains.

Lowfyr was messing with her mind. He needed her to work for him, and if she
becomes unsure of her moral footing, it becomes that much easier for him to
manipulate her. He runs an entire corp, so you know he does that like
nobodies business.


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 10
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 09:02:49 -0400
At 07:55 PM 10/21/99 -0700, you wrote:
> > At 08:27 PM 10/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
> > >F
> > >O
> > >R
> > >E
> > >V
> > >E
> > >R
> > >
> > >D
> > >R
> > >U
> > >G
> > >
> > >S
> > >U
> > >X
> > >
> > >H
> > >A
> > >R
> > >D
> > >
> > >R
> > >O
> > >C
> > >K
> > >S
> > >!
> > >
> > Crap that it would work or crap that he would try
>it? I have to finish reading dragons, but isn't that
>how some of those elves got so long lived?
>
>Can't comment on that, actually. Haven't read the
>book. Although I meant crap that it would work, so it
>could be wrong. But from what people are saying, it
>sounds like Alamaise BRED with an elf to create
>immortal elves from her CHILDREN - and that's
>different to just injecting a bit of dragon's blood.
>When you make children, both the parents' DNA is mixed
>in the kid's DNA. Since when does having a blood
>transfusion alter your genetic makeup. If that's the
>case, it's still crap.

The short answer was that it was a blood transfusion. The long version was
that it was an enzyme derived from dragons blood, genetically altered to
within an inch of its life, and injected into the infant to mix with and
alter their DNA. All of this is happening at a time when the body is still
undergoing huge amounts of change on the cellular level on up for maximum
effectiveness. It also coincides with a particular balance of mana at that
particular time frame, hence the October 31st date.

Much different that just a blood transfusion.

> > Some of that is very misleading. Currently the world
>just topped 6 billion. 10 years ago the projections
>for world population in 2050 were around 16 billion.
>The latest projections place it more like 10 billion
>in 2050. One of the biggest reasons for this is there
>has been a tendency across the world for lowered
>birthrates. Throw in something like VITAS, and the
>world could conceivably be much less crowded in 2060
>then it is now.
>
>Drek, Sommers. VITAS took 10% of the world's
>population. Even with 3 lots of 10% deaths, you've
>still got more than 7 billion with today's
>projections. And when you consider how much of the
>world of Shadowrun has gone to crap and is useful for
>supporting people (just for instance, most of Scotland
>and a quarter (or thereabouts) of Germany are
>radioactive wastelands).

Okay, 2010 approximately 25% of the world are dead or dying due to VITAS.
China, India and Africa are hardest hit, also being the countries with the
highest growth rate. So we go from 7 billion back down to 5.25 billion,
with the rate of expansion slowing down. Since the disease would probably
be more likely to affect the elderly and children (being the weakest), the
birth rate will further in those regions later down the line. Less people
to have children 15-20 years later, lower rate.

2022 another VITAS wave takes out another 10%. At this point they might
have gotten past 6 billion, but with your growth centers hit hardest
(China, India, Africa) its a safe bet it was 6 billion.

I believe that there was a third round that didn't kill that many people,
but was still effective. Around 2030 the number of people that would
normally start having kids drops down as the "VITAS generation" comes to
age. This further slows down population growth as there are less people
having kids. So that by 2060 there are actually not that many more people
living in the world than there are now.

>I suppose you have a point when you consider that
>they're now using soy and "farm-the-sea" techniques,
>but still - at best, they're in exactly the same
>situation we are now. You throw immortals or virtual
>immortals into the mix and the world's population will
>double within years, because PEOPLE STOP DYING. Boom.
>THAT'S my point.

There probably wouldn't be too many more people than there are now. I think
that was the situation they wanted to get into in SR. In the meantime,
aquaculture, soy products, and genetic engineering of crops has lead to
increased yields for the last 60 years, to the point where if you can get
to it, there is food around.

If people were to delay dying, all of the projections get off center, but
in unproductive ways. Most children are born to parents between the ages of
15 and 35, with the majority of them coming at the younger ages. Why?
Because physically, that's the best time to do it. Because of this, you
have the generation effect, where population tends to rise and fall in big
chunks. Whole bunch of people born at the same time tend to have babies at
the same time, causing another jump.

What if the time that you can have kids is raised to 55? How many people
put it off longer so that they can work? Are the bumps in the pop charts
going to get evened out?
> > Second, the amount of people that the planet can
>support is a very nebulous number. The amount of food
>produced in the world rose something to something like
>10 times the amount grown 40 years ago. Unlike many of
>the famines that occurred in Africa in the 80's
>because of bad conditions, the famines of the 90's
>have been mostly political. Russia, North Korea, China
>all have problems with communism simply not getting
>the job done. Africa continues it political problems
>which contribute to its general mess.
>
>And if anything, these problems are exacerbated in SR
>times.

True enough. Those same countries are going to have problems then too. The
trick isn't getting the food, its getting it to the people. Cut down the
transportation costs, and it gets easier to feed those people.

> > People living longer is not necessarily a bad thing.
>If they stay healthier during that time, and not just
>live longer but require more resources. If a human
>lived consistently until 120, he would probably be
>considered middle age well into his 70's-80's. How
>much more work could he do during that time?
>
>Longer, sure. Forever? Big problem.

Forever can be a big problem...maybe.


> > Remember that its what Lofwyr IMPLIED was an
>ulterior motive. When you're a paranoid SOB who uses
>everyone around you like chess pieces, you tend to
>think the rest of your peers act like that. He might
>not be capable of thinking that D would do otherwise,
>since he would have had at least 3 plots built into
>this one.
>
>But that's the only alternative. Well, one of them.
>Either Dunkelzahn was trying to make everyone live
>forever, which is stupid, or he was screwing with the
>serum and intended to SHORTEN everyone's lives, or he
>was trying to create a new race of servitors. I don't
>see Dunkelzahn doing either of the two, and frankly,
>the suggestion irritates me no end. But that's just me
>and that's just a personal problem I have with the
>book, not something that's inherently wrong with it.

Or he is doing exactly what he says, and trying to make them live longer,
just not forever.

> > Also, there is the whole D as maverick route. He
>liked people, and pissed off a lot of elves and
>dragons in the process. He had gotten in trouble
>several times with them several times, and when
>against all dragon tradition when he made out a will
>in the first place. He did what he thought was right,
>not what everyone else thought. So maybe he did it
>just to level the playing field a little. Elves live
>to about 120-140, dwarves almost as much. Why should
>they have all of the fun and the other 3 races get
>screwed?
>
>Okay, that I'm more in agreement with on the basic
>level, but we still get into the basic stupidity of
>making everyone immortal. Extending the lifespan to
>120-140 years is all right, but I really don't think
>that's what the serum was intended to do. I may be
>remembering it wrong, but if I'm not, the intention
>was to make everyone immortal, which is the equivalent
>of world suicide in the long run, unless we could
>seriously populate other planets.

Maybe that's another thing he wanted to do. Why was there such a push to go
from Europe to the New World? More land was needed, and it was over there.
If there is no more land due to overcrowding, wouldn't that be a great
incentive for these immortals to go out looking for other planets? No
problem with long space voyages. :)

> > Besides, he got to tweak the IE's one more time from
>beyond the grave. :)
>
>I thought he did that pretty well with his bequests to
>the Tirs in his will. :) But this WASN'T supposed to
>be a "from beyond the grave" thing.

I think he was trying to tweak them BEFORE he dies. Its easy to be arrogant
and blase about life if you live the longest. How would those elves feel if
everyone, even the orks, started living as long as elves? Or even immortal?

> > And I actually thought the smell part was a nice
>twist. This came up before about astral perception
>being described that way because humans are for the
>most part visual creatures. For an animal, it might be
>much easier to process the information as scent
>instead.
>
>But he's NOT processing it as scent. If you look at
>the spirit's explanation, he's using scent as a WAY to
>look at things, because that's his primary sense. He's
>still not really smelling it (which would be stupid
>enough - smelling memories), but "looking" at it with
>his nose. Same way meta mages "look" on the astral
>with their eyes. They're not really using their eyes,
>it's just the easiest way for them to understand it.
>So why does the fact that he PICTURES himself using
>scent astrally have any effect on being able to track
>things? Logical flaw there.

Because he could always do it? But thinking of it that way allowed him to
do something that he didn't think he would ordinarily be able to do. Goes
back to the "if you can think it you can do it" school of thought.


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 11
From: lomion lomion@*********.or
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 08:22:00 -0700
>
>If people were to delay dying, all of the projections get off center, but
>in unproductive ways. Most children are born to parents between the ages
>of 15 and 35, with the majority of them coming at the younger ages. Why?
>Because physically, that's the best time to do it. Because of this, you
>have the generation effect, where population tends to rise and fall in big
>chunks. Whole bunch of people born at the same time tend to have babies at
>the same time, causing another jump.

Here is an aside, my wife's ob/gyn told us when she was pregnant that the
prime childbearing years are 20-24.

--lomion
Message no. 12
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Books of Ill Repute (aka Le Bad Shadowrun) (was Re: Bone
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 12:00:22 -0400
At 11:22 AM 10/22/99 , lomion wrote:



>>If people were to delay dying, all of the projections get off center, but
>>in unproductive ways. Most children are born to parents between the ages
>>of 15 and 35, with the majority of them coming at the younger ages. Why?
>>Because physically, that's the best time to do it. Because of this, you
>>have the generation effect, where population tends to rise and fall in
>>big chunks. Whole bunch of people born at the same time tend to have
>>babies at the same time, causing another jump.
>
>Here is an aside, my wife's ob/gyn told us when she was pregnant that the
>prime childbearing years are 20-24.


Yeah, my roommate told me that too. But in reality, the biggest time is
between 15 (when women are generally through puberty physically and are
capable of it) and 35 (when its getting somewhat dangerous for the mother).

But if the lifetime of a person were to double, its quite likely that the
woman would be able to have children much later in life, and still be able
to do it in a safe way. I'm sure than elven women could have kids safely
well into their 30's or 40's if they're going to live to 150.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.

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