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Message no. 1
From: Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.COM>
Subject: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:26:23 -0400
Hello all, Josh here:

My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was wondering
if others here do the same things...

You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1" CANCELS a
sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a botch..

SO under his system, if I roll 3 dice verses a TN of 6. and I roll 6,1,1..
in his system I BOTCH since the six is canceled, but in the Shadowrun book
system
the six would save my butt...

To make matters worse, he still uses six sided dice for shadowrun... This
makes it harder, because White Wolf uses TEN siders (16.7% vs. 10%)...
Since he never tells us the target number we are rolling. I don't know if
he is adjusting the TN down as an equilzer...

Do other GMs on this board do this???

Signed,

Confused..and distraught
---------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a smiling gamemaster!"
-My GM's favorite Shirt Button
---------------------------------------------------
Message no. 2
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 06:01:17 +0000
> Hello all, Josh here:
Hi, Josh.
> My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was wondering
> if others here do the same things...
>
> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1" CANCELS a
> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a
botch..

I am familiar with the white wolf system. It is easier to botch there
than in SR. There is also one, very important difference - WW ten
sided rolls never roll against TN's higher than 10, and TN 9 and 10
is intended for exceedingly difficult tasks, as a 10 gives an even
chance of fumbling no matter how skilled you are.

IMO, without further modification this translates poorly into SR, as
TN's can climb far above 6, effectively making the roll more likely
to botch the more skilled you are as long as the task is difficult.
(TN 8+).



--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 3
From: Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:24:56 -0700
At 11:01 PM -0700 6/4/98, Fade wrote:
>> Hello all, Josh here:
>Hi, Josh.
>> My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was wondering
>> if others here do the same things...
>>
>> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1"
CANCELS a
>> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
>> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a
botch..
>
>I am familiar with the white wolf system. It is easier to botch there
>than in SR. There is also one, very important difference - WW ten
>sided rolls never roll against TN's higher than 10, and TN 9 and 10
>is intended for exceedingly difficult tasks, as a 10 gives an even
>chance of fumbling no matter how skilled you are.
>
>IMO, without further modification this translates poorly into SR, as
>TN's can climb far above 6, effectively making the roll more likely
>to botch the more skilled you are as long as the task is difficult.
>(TN 8+).

I agree. The target numbers in SR can climb pretty quickly. Subtracting
hard earned successes because of a few ones just doesn't do it for me.
And the probability differences between sixers and teners also works
against SR players. However, the rule of ones hits so rarely that it's
hardly worth putting in the game imo. Aside from making it risky
for people with only a few dots in a skill, it just doesn't have much
teeth to it. Isn't there a rule somewhere about rolling more 1's than
the skill rating?

Anyway - in summary, Fade hit the nail on the head. It just doesn't
translate.

-Rob
Message no. 4
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:31:00 -0500
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 23:26:23 -0400 Joshua Bell <joshbell@**********.COM>
writes:
>Hello all, Josh here:
>
>My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was
wondering
>if others here do the same things...


*wave to Josh's GM* Hi! :)

<snip explanation of Josh's GM using the WW botch system instead of SR's>

>Do other GMs on this board do this???


I don't know if anyone on the list does that, but I do know that some of
the folks back home that I've gamed with in the past have done that
(though I don't think I was present at the time). It royally pissed one
guy off, because he hadn't been expecting it and wasn't at all happy
about botching half the rolls he made that night. As far as it goes, it
isn't my job to say what your GM should or shouldn't do (I've had enough
of that crap from people myself from folks and it isn't always
appreciated -- or called for. But, I digress). I would suggest that he
might consider running the game using the "official" SR Rule of Ones
rather than the WW setup and see if it works better that way. He might
also check with the players (assuming there's more than just you;) and
see what they think about it. It is still ultimately *his* choice and I
leave it to him and you to work out. I've had my say and it was far more
than I've a right to in the circumstances -- like I said before, what
your GM does isn't really any of my business:)

Good luck (to both of you;)

Canthros-the-still-alive-despite-the-grades-shapeshifter-mage

--
John Pederson "Reality is a greasy beast"
aka Canthros, shapeshifter-mage --Colin P. Hill
lobo1@****.com canthros1@***.com john.e.pederson@***********.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/4864 ICQ UIN 3190186


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Message no. 5
From: MC23 <mc23@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 02:27:52 -0400
Once upon a time, Robert Nesius wrote;

>Isn't there a rule somewhere about rolling more 1's than
>the skill rating?

First suggested in FoF for combat (beacuse of pool use adding more
dice) and later as an option for all skills in the Companion. I use it.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

Ancient cultures believed that names held great power, personal names
more so and they were guarded very closely. To protect themselves, they
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it could be used against them.
History repeats itself.
Welcome to the Digital Age.
I am MC23
Message no. 6
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 01:16:22 -0500
On Thu, 4 Jun 1998 21:24:56 -0700 Robert Nesius <nesius@******.COM>
writes:
>At 11:01 PM -0700 6/4/98, Fade wrote:
>>> Hello all, Josh here:

>>Hi, Josh.

>>> My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was
wondering
>>> if others here do the same things...
>>>
>>> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1"
CANCELS a
>>> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook
the
>>> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you
get a botch..

<SNIP Comparison of SR dice (d6) to WW dice (d10)>
>teeth to it. Isn't there a rule somewhere about rolling more 1's than
>the skill rating?

I don't remember where I got this from, but what I use is if you roll a
number of ones equal to the skill (or stat if defaulting) unmodified by
external means of the user ... Some examples (for clarity :) :

Example 1 - Firing a pistol
Skill - fireams/pistols 1/3
mods - Customized (+1 Die), Enhanced Articulation (+1 Die)
Combat Pool - 3 Dice
Total Dice: 8
Botches when 4 one's are rolled (3 Skill +1 Artictulation)

Example 2 - Still firing a pistol ;)
Skill - fireams/pistols 4/6
mods - Customized (+1 Die), Enhanced Articulation (+1 Die)
Combat Pool - 0 Dice
Total Dice: 8
Botches when 7 one's are rolled (6 Skill +1 Artictulation)

Sound Good? If not, maybe the chance to botch should be based on the
unmodified skill/stat ...

>Anyway - in summary, Fade hit the nail on the head. It just doesn't
>translate.
>
>-Rob

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:19:03 +0100
Joshua Bell said on 23:26/4 Jun 98,...

> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1" CANCELS a
> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a
botch..
[snip]

WW's system is flawed, IMnsHO. Various people have done some
calculations on it, and IIRC it turns out that the more dice you
roll, the larger the chance of not succeeding becomes. This is only
really noticable against high TNs, but the fact is that it's there.
(One semi-fix I've seen is to say that a 10 cancels a 1, BTW.)

Like you said, with SR's system it gets worse because it uses D6s
instead of D10s. I would recommend to your GM not to use this
system, as I have a feeling it leads to a botch much too fast. If he
does want to stick to it, perhaps introduce a rule from Star Wars
too (as long as we're borrowing rules...): any time you roll more
1s than successes, one of the following can occur, at the GM's
option: 1) you fumble; 2) subtract one success; 3) you fail
normally.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 8
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:45:58 +0100
And verily, did Joshua Bell hastily scribble thusly...
|
|Hello all, Josh here:
|
|My GM (Who is on this list) does things a bit differently. I was wondering
|if others here do the same things...
|
|You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1" CANCELS a
|sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
|only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a botch..

This has been gone over several times, and the general consensus is that the
WW system is screwed. The probability of a botch increases with skill level,
whereas in shadowrun, it decreases. (Which is as it should be)

|Do other GMs on this board do this???

I don't think so. It's been discussed and thrown out numerous times though.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
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Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:57:46 +0100
And verily, did Gurth hastily scribble thusly...
|Like you said, with SR's system it gets worse because it uses D6s
|instead of D10s. I would recommend to your GM not to use this
|system, as I have a feeling it leads to a botch much too fast. If he
|does want to stick to it, perhaps introduce a rule from Star Wars
|too (as long as we're borrowing rules...): any time you roll more
|1s than successes, one of the following can occur, at the GM's
|option: 1) you fumble; 2) subtract one success; 3) you fail
|normally.

Nope. Star Wars uses a system where you have one dice of a different colour.
If *THAT* dice rolls a one, you have a chance of doing one of the three
options you mentioned. The others rolling ones don't matter...
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:47:59 -0400
At 09:24 PM 6/4/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Anyway - in summary, Fade hit the nail on the head. It just doesn't
>translate.

True, a literal translation doesn't work very well.

However...

Had a GM a few years back that did a variation on this concept (and I don't
think he'd ever played anything White Wolf).

Okay, your One acts as a failure, and takes away from your successes. Just
as in White Wolf.

To counter-balance that, every Six could be rolled again as a new dice (not
just to add on to the success).

So if I have six dice, I roll 1,1,3,4,5,6 against a TN #4. Under normal
SR, you've got a straight 3 successes. Under this variation, you'd roll
that 6 again...a 5! So you have 4 successes minus 2 failures, leaving you
with a total of 2 successes.

When the TN is greater than a six, the normal SR rule of Sixes applies, and
the 1úilure is also thrown out.

Having used this system since around the arrival of SR2, here's what
happens with this variation.

It keeps munchkins with piles of dice under some control. The odds of
rolling all 1 on twenty dice is next to impossible, but it's much more
likely (though still VERY rare) to come up with a majority of failures and
botch. And it's happened every now and again that some cocky street sam
rolls 10 dice or something and has to spend a Karma point to turn a botch
into a simple failure.

It does also make combat a bit longer than it probably needs to be (less
net successes), but it does make combat more dynamic and strategic (that
sure shot turned out to be not so sure).

And because of the potential for obtaining more successes than you had
starting dice, I haven't run across any players that have complained.

Erik J.


Resepected Elders Relaxation Resort, President of Operations
and Director of Activities

"Hey, how about a game of first edition using only the Blue Book?"
Message no. 11
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 20:51:37 GMT
On 5 Jun 98 11:19:03 GMT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) disseminated foul capitalist
propaganda by writing:

[...]
>WW's system is flawed, IMnsHO.

WW's system is not simply flawed. It sucks rocks big time. IMAO, of course. ;)

I've run M:tA once, and the "one's cancel successes" rule _immediately_ went out
through the window. ;)

[...]
>does want to stick to it, perhaps introduce a rule from Star Wars
>too (as long as we're borrowing rules...): any time you roll more
>1s than successes, one of the following can occur, at the GM's
>option: 1) you fumble; 2) subtract one success; 3) you fail
>normally.

Actually, in SW there's one die that can make you either fail critically or
suceed critically, so it's something a bit different.

Leslie
PS. Gurth, did somebody ever tell you your .sig <THWAP> <BLAM> <KA-POW>
Don't shoot, don't shoot! I'll be quiet now! ;))
--
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Star Wars junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
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Message no. 12
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 23:16:01 EDT
In a message dated 6/4/98 10:38:10 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
joshbell@**********.COM writes:

> To make matters worse, he still uses six sided dice for shadowrun... This
> makes it harder, because White Wolf uses TEN siders (16.7% vs. 10%)...
> Since he never tells us the target number we are rolling. I don't know if
> he is adjusting the TN down as an equilzer...
>
> Do other GMs on this board do this???
>
Sorry for snipping the idea of trading "1's" for "Successes", but I
have to
admit, this is definitely a balancing concept of unique proportion when placed
into comparison for SR. I think your GM has the right idea, I just don't know
about the impact it would have, as I have obviously never tried it....

=K
Message no. 13
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:21:04 -0500
>
> Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun) (Joshua Bell , Thu 22:26)

> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1" CANCELS a
> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook the
> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a
botch..
>
> SO under his system, if I roll 3 dice verses a TN of 6. and I roll 6,1,1..
> in his system I BOTCH since the six is canceled, but in the Shadowrun book
> system
> the six would save my butt...
>
> To make matters worse, he still uses six sided dice for shadowrun... This
> makes it harder, because White Wolf uses TEN siders (16.7% vs. 10%)...
> Since he never tells us the target number we are rolling. I don't know if
> he is adjusting the TN down as an equilzer...
>
> Do other GMs on this board do this???

Not just no, but HELL NO. I can'tactully speak for other games, but
we'd certainly NOT use such a mechanic in our game. As you noted, you
would HAVE TO knock down the TN's- a TN of 6 is not supossed to be "hit
or miss" luck- look at the table on p.68 SR. He's making something like
resisting damage from a medium pistol without armor quite likely to
botch (if you use botches on damage resistance).

The "1's cancel succeses" rule is one of WW's storyteller system's
WORST features, roundly mocked when people discus games mechanics and
statistics. I actully have more respect for the "Hole" game mechanics,
also by WW (Black Dog games, actually, a in-house parody). Maybe he
should use those instead, if he likes WW so much... They'd actully be
kinda fun for SR. Silly, but fun.

That said, I can see why your gamemaster might use that mechanic after
some (badly) considerd thought- botches in sr are usually quite rare,
and unrelated to the difficulty of the task. Also, especially with use
of large karma pools, "nearly impossible" tasks can become rather
rutine, if still difficult. However, if he's just started doing SR, and
is using that rule, he hasn't given the game as written a chance.

The solutions for this within SR are to use the modified botch rules
from FOF or SRC (both have some problems) and to pump up the opposition
to the point where thier resistance tests get enough succeses to keep
things challenging (using threat rating, most often).

Mimicing the effect of WW's botch system in SR would be hard (it just
RUINS the rule of 6) and rather pointless (since it also can penalize
you for rolling many dice, making it more likely for a physad to botch
on athletics- HUH?). Better might be if each 1 rolled added dice to any
RESISTANCE TEST used against the results. The rule of 6 actully come
into playquiteoften,especially inhigherpoweredgames- good stats,
background counts, and high force spells can mean ALL magic related TN's
are 6+, for example. A feasible mimic might also be every TWO 1's
rolled cancel a success- this has all the same problems as WW's system,
but at least doesn't compound it by aplying it to a dinky D6. Things
should work aboutthesameas WW's game, with TN 10+ being possible only
with luck (or karma expenditure). (For a real torture fest, try
playing SR with all d-4's, using the "rule of 4" but otherwise the same
rules as stock SR. :] )

Other house rules "botch" ideas have been tossed around the ShadowRN
list. Most involve marking some dice as "botch dice", so that the
botches are more common for folks rolling gobs of dice.

I mentioned a flaw in another post that would mak ebotches more common-
basically, for each point of flaw, a normal failure die is considered a
roll of one. This effectively reduces the number of 1's that need to be
rolled for botches, but keeps normal succeses from being botches and
doesn't reduce chances of succes.
An option for making botches more common would be to apply this "flaw"
at a level equal to the TN penalty on all rolls. That would make
difficult situations more likely to result in botches, which seems
realistic to me.
Example- Razor is rolling to runn away from some secguards (athletics
skill 5, tn 4), but has a serious wound (tn +3). Razzor rolls a
1,1,4,5,5. Normally thats just a failure, meaning he doen't increase
his quickness for running. Under this rule, 3 additional failures
would be counted as 1's, making it a roll of all 1's- a botch. Razor
trips and falls down (as wounded runners often do), putting no distance
between himself and the guards. Standing up with a wound is a willpower
test...

-Mongoose
Message no. 14
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:17:26 EDT
In a message dated 6/5/98 11:51:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
evamarie@**********.net writes:

> > To make matters worse, he still uses six sided dice for shadowrun... This
> > makes it harder, because White Wolf uses TEN siders (16.7% vs. 10%)...
> > Since he never tells us the target number we are rolling. I don't know if
> > he is adjusting the TN down as an equilzer...
> >
> > Do other GMs on this board do this???
>
Okay, Mongoose didn't actually say this, but a thought occurred. Would the
idea of "every "Net" failure" not be so bad in this manner. For every
two
"1's" rolled, a single success (starting at the lower end of the die rolls
made) is removed from it's effectiveness...

=K
Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:26:21 -0500
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 00:21:04 -0500 wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.net>
writes:
>> Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun) (Joshua Bell , Thu 22:26)
>> You see, my GM is into White Wolf, so he says that a roll of "1"
CANCELS a
>> sucess like it is done in White Wolf...even though in the SR rulebook
the
>> only problem with "1"s is that if you roll ALL "1"s you get a
botch..
<SNIP>
>> Do other GMs on this board do this???

Board? heh heh ... used to BBSs?

> Not just no, but HELL NO.
<SNIP>
> The solutions for this within SR are to use the modified botch
rules
>from FOF or SRC (both have some problems) and to pump up the opposition
>to the point where thier resistance tests get enough succeses to keep
>things challenging (using threat rating, most often).
>
> Mimicing the effect of WW's botch system in SR would be hard (it
just
>RUINS the rule of 6) and rather pointless (since it also can penalize
>you for rolling many dice, making it more likely for a physad to botch
>on athletics- HUH?).

Heh, this made me think ... I use "if you roll a number of 1s equal to
your skill, it's a botch (which I think is FoF option) ... How does
Improved ability work in this sense? If a PhysAd has Athletics 4 and
Improved Ability Athletics 4, does he/she botch with 4 1s or 8 1s? (I'd
go with 8)

<SNIP>
> I mentioned a flaw in another post that would mak ebotches more
>common- basically, for each point of flaw, a normal failure die is
considered
>a roll of one. This effectively reduces the number of 1's that need to
be
>rolled for botches, but keeps normal succeses from being botches and
>doesn't reduce chances of succes.
> An option for making botches more common would be to apply this
"flaw"
>at a level equal to the TN penalty on all rolls. That would make
>difficult situations more likely to result in botches, which seems
>realistic to me.

Uhm ... so your gun is more likely to misfire because you can't see your
target well? Aside from that, it doesn't sound too bad ... just only use
the T# mods (for the purpose of determining the level of the "flaw") that
make sense...

<SNIP>
>-Mongoose

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:44:27 +0100
Spike said on 11:57/5 Jun 98,...

> Nope. Star Wars uses a system where you have one dice of a different colour.
> If *THAT* dice rolls a one, you have a chance of doing one of the three
> options you mentioned. The others rolling ones don't matter...

I'm aware of that, thankyouverymuch :) However, what I was
suggesting is adapting it to SR in another way, to better fit the
adapted WoD system. The main reason for that is that if you use
the WoD botch rules straight in SR, then a LOT of the rolls made
will end up botches. Whereas if you tack on the SW rule that a
"botch" isn't really a botch but a potential botch, you might
actually make something out of it.

Doesn't take away the fact that I wouldn't use it, because of the
often-mentioned matter that the fumble chance increases the
higher your skill gets...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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Message no. 17
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:44:28 +0100
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike said on 20:51/5 Jun 98,...

> WW's system is not simply flawed. It sucks rocks big time. IMAO, of course. ;)
>
> I've run M:tA once, and the "one's cancel successes" rule _immediately_
went out
> through the window. ;)

One of my players sometimes GMs Mage, and I recommended
that same house rule to him. He decided not to use it, though; I
think he's too inexperienced with different rules systems to be
able to tell good points and bad points without actually playing
the game a lot :)

[snip rule borrowed from SW]
> Actually, in SW there's one die that can make you either fail
critically or
> suceed critically, so it's something a bit different.

See my reply to Spike's message pointing ou much the same
thing.

> Leslie
> PS. Gurth, did somebody ever tell you your .sig <THWAP> <BLAM>
<KA-POW>
> Don't shoot, don't shoot! I'll be quiet now! ;))

I know, but what would you have me throw out?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
Is it yours, or is it... goodbye!
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- + --+--
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o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ | the Sqooshy Ball
tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y? | 21 May 1998
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Message no. 18
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 1998 12:30:05 +0100
And verily, did wafflemiester hastily scribble thusly...
| The "1's cancel succeses" rule is one of WW's storyteller system's
|WORST features, roundly mocked when people discus games mechanics and
|statistics. I actully have more respect for the "Hole" game mechanics,

HoL, I think you mean. (Yes, I know it's an accented 'o').

|also by WW (Black Dog games, actually, a in-house parody). Maybe he
|should use those instead, if he likes WW so much... They'd actully be
|kinda fun for SR. Silly, but fun.

LOL!
"So, what are you going to shoot him with?"
"My vindicator minigun"
"OK... Make your 'shoot really big guns' roll, the range is really really
really really far away."

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 19
From: wafflemiester <evamarie@**********.NET>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 05:54:30 -0500
> Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun) (Alfredo B Alves , Sat 0:26)

> <SNIP>
> > I mentioned a flaw in another post that would mak ebotches more
> >common- basically, for each point of flaw, a normal failure die is
> considered
> >a roll of one. This effectively reduces the number of 1's that need to
> be
> >rolled for botches, but keeps normal succeses from being botches and
> >doesn't reduce chances of succes.
> > An option for making botches more common would be to apply this
> "flaw"
> >at a level equal to the TN penalty on all rolls. That would make
> >difficult situations more likely to result in botches, which seems
> >realistic to me.
>
> Uhm ... so your gun is more likely to misfire because you can't see your
> target well? Aside from that, it doesn't sound too bad ... just only use
> the T# mods (for the purpose of determining the level of the "flaw") that
> make sense...

Or interpret the outcome of the botch in a way that makes sense- cover
could cause a dangerous ricochete, for example. And shooting in the
dark IS more likey to cause problems- blindness from muzzle flash,
fumbled guns, mistaken identities- not all botches are misfires.
The outcome in my proposal is ceratainly no worse than the normal
effects of WW's botches, or most other botch sysytems where higher TN's
lead to more botches. And it specifically makes botches more likely to
occur in situations they do in real life, to an extent (wounds, poor
light, distractions). Of course the GM would be free to say a TN mod
didn't count towards botches- reach would not always affect the chance
of a melee botch, for example.

-Mongoose
Message no. 20
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 13:07:35 +0000
On 6 Jun 98 11:44:28 GMT, gurth@******.NL (Gurth) disseminated foul
capitalist propaganda by writing:

[...]
>One of my players sometimes GMs Mage, and I recommended
>that same house rule to him. He decided not to use it, though; I
>think he's too inexperienced with different rules systems to be able
>to tell good points and bad points without actually playing the game
>a lot :)

Oh. I guess he'll learn soon. At least if he knows something about
probability. ;))

[...]
>> PS. Gurth, did somebody ever tell you your .sig <THWAP> <BLAM>
>> <KA-POW> Don't shoot, don't shoot! I'll be quiet now! ;))

>I know, but what would you have me throw out?

Everything!!! ;)))

Just kidding, Mr GridSec, please don't hit me with that ouch! ouch!
OUCH! ;)))

Leslie

Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Star Wars junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.12 GL/O d- s+: a20 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M-
PS+(+++) PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Mad at your neighbor? Buy his kid a drum!
Message no. 21
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Sun, 7 Jun 1998 17:07:04 GMT
On 7 Jun 98 10:54:30 GMT, evamarie@**********.net (wafflemiester) disseminated
foul capitalist propaganda by writing:

[...]
> The outcome in my proposal is ceratainly no worse than the normal
>effects of WW's botches, or most other botch sysytems where higher TN's
>lead to more botches. And it specifically makes botches more likely to

Ehhh... What "most other botch systems"?

Most systems I know (with the exception of WW system) have a constant chance of
critical failure and critical success...

>-Mongoose
Leslie
--
Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
Star Wars junkie; ICQ UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
GL/O d- s+: a20 C+++ L++ P E--- W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O+ M- PS+(+++)
PE Y+ PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Message no. 22
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Botchs-(Using White Wolf Rules in Shadowrun)
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:42:55 -0500
On Sat, 6 Jun 1998 01:17:26 EDT K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 6/5/98 11:51:43 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>evamarie@**********.net writes:
>> > To make matters worse, he still uses six sided dice for shadowrun...
This
>> > makes it harder, because White Wolf uses TEN siders (16.7% vs.
10%)...
>> > Since he never tells us the target number we are rolling. I don't
know if
>> > he is adjusting the TN down as an equilzer...
>> >
>> > Do other GMs on this board do this???

>Okay, Mongoose didn't actually say this, but a thought occurred. Would
the
>idea of "every "Net" failure" not be so bad in this manner. For
every
two
>"1's" rolled, a single success (starting at the lower end of the die
rolls
>made) is removed from it's effectiveness...
>
>=K

The problem Here is that two one's are more likely to turn up than some
of the higher T#s ... It seems okay in theory but will probably tend to
shift the game to average results ... Try it in the home and if the
players don't kill ya for it, tell us how it goes ;)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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