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Message no. 1
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 04:41:38 EDT
Okay, if ya'll will point your browsers to

www.hoosierhackerhouse.com

And then proceed to the Gear section, you will find a single link labeled
"Archery".

If you go there, the link only goes to one other location. It's an overview
of a Compound Bow ... Not a Recurve Bow, but a compound bow ... and if
careful attention is performed, speculators will note that the central
structure of the bow DOES NOT MOVE as per it's design.

-K
Message no. 2
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:38:22 -0400
HHackerH@***.com wrote:

> Okay, if ya'll will point your browsers to
>
> www.hoosierhackerhouse.com
>
> And then proceed to the Gear section, you will find a single link labeled
> "Archery".
>
> If you go there, the link only goes to one other location. It's an overview
> of a Compound Bow ... Not a Recurve Bow, but a compound bow ... and if
> careful attention is performed, speculators will note that the central
> structure of the bow DOES NOT MOVE as per it's design.
>
> -K

Cool, thanks K. I've been following this thread, and those pics save me the
trouble of asking about a collapsable bow. Obviously from the pictures, there is
too much stuff in the way, as well as needing structural strength in the part of
the bow that would fold up. *shrug* Oh, well, it probably would be too
munchkin-like to have a physad with a collapsable smartlinked bow.

--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 3
From: Jonathan Hurley silvercat@***********.org
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:21:28 -0400
Um, you all do know that recurve bows may be designed to be broken down in
the middle? I have seen several recurve bows that can be broken down for
transport. And that you can buy today laser sights for bows?

At any rate, why put the electronics in the bow? Put it in the grip, and run
flexwires to the strain gauges on the limbs of the bow. (That's for an
internal smartlink in a bow...)

For one on an accessory mount, it's even easier. Sure, you have to spend
about an hour calibrating the thing after you mount it, but that should be
true of any external smartlink.
Message no. 4
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 10:57:13 -0400
At 10:21 AM 4/25/00, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
>Um, you all do know that recurve bows may be designed to be broken down in
>the middle? I have seen several recurve bows that can be broken down for
>transport. And that you can buy today laser sights for bows?
>
>At any rate, why put the electronics in the bow? Put it in the grip, and run
>flexwires to the strain gauges on the limbs of the bow. (That's for an
>internal smartlink in a bow...)

Personally I don't see what the big deal is with having an internal
smartlink for the bow. One of the big features is that you don't lose any
Concealability with the internal one. The thing is, I don't see a bow being
very concealable.

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 5
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:38:57 -0400
At 09:38 AM 4/25/00, NaCl(aq) wrote:
>HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> > Okay, if ya'll will point your browsers to
> >
> > www.hoosierhackerhouse.com
> >
> > And then proceed to the Gear section, you will find a single link labeled
> > "Archery".
> >
> > If you go there, the link only goes to one other location. It's an
> overview
> > of a Compound Bow ... Not a Recurve Bow, but a compound bow ... and if
> > careful attention is performed, speculators will note that the central
> > structure of the bow DOES NOT MOVE as per it's design.
> >
> > -K
>
>Cool, thanks K. I've been following this thread, and those pics save me the
>trouble of asking about a collapsable bow. Obviously from the pictures,
>there is
>too much stuff in the way, as well as needing structural strength in the
>part of
>the bow that would fold up. *shrug* Oh, well, it probably would be too
>munchkin-like to have a physad with a collapsable smartlinked bow.

Question. Doesn't a compound bow also refer to a recurved bow that is made
up of more than one material? AFAIK, a recurved bow can be made from one
single piece of wood that is shaped properly. It takes time, but can be
done. But I seem to remember the horse bows of the Mongols, for example,
being a recurved bow that was made from both animal horn and wood laminated
together. This was stronger than a single piece of wood, which allowed it
to be made with a heavier pull, which in turn lead to more powerful shots
from the bow.

A modern compound bow, with the pulleys and such, was considered a compound
bow because it was not formed from a single piece of material, and as such
could be made with a stronger pull for the size.


Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 6
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:21:46 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 8:40:57 AM , jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu writes:

>
> Cool, thanks K. I've been following this thread, and those pics save me the
> trouble of asking about a collapsable bow. Obviously from the pictures,
> there is
> too much stuff in the way, as well as needing structural strength in the
> part of
> the bow that would fold up. *shrug* Oh, well, it probably would be too
> munchkin-like to have a physad with a collapsable smartlinked bow.

Ah, but there is a trick here that I should point out. The "joists" section
of the Archery page is the clue. I have seen, fired, and moved with a
"collapsable bow". The joists area of the bow were the position of the
collapsing. Something the pictures are not helpful with is that the pulleys
are not "open frame". They actually do have a guide that the string/cable is
drawn through.

Now, I do have it from the owner of that bow at the time (8+ years ago now)
that he felt the bow's maximum draw strength suffered ... down to 45 pounds,
from another compound bow of same size and positioning which had a 65 pound
draw. BUT, you're idea has merit in truth. I would personally have given
the "collapsable compound bow" a setup/breakdown time of 10/3 turns. 10 to
put together properly, and 3 to take down. A projectile weapons b/r test,
target of perhaps a 3 or 4 to cut this time down.

And god only knows what could be done to *THAT* little bit of action given
SR's microrobotics and Smart Materials.

-Keith
Message no. 7
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:56:43 -0700
Sommers wrote:
>
> Question. Doesn't a compound bow also refer to a recurved bow that is made
> up of more than one material? AFAIK, a recurved bow can be made from one
> single piece of wood that is shaped properly. It takes time, but can be
> done. But I seem to remember the horse bows of the Mongols, for example,
> being a recurved bow that was made from both animal horn and wood laminated
> together. This was stronger than a single piece of wood, which allowed it
> to be made with a heavier pull, which in turn lead to more powerful shots
> from the bow.

I believe that's a composite bow.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 8
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:10:31 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 11:39:50 AM , sommers@*****.umich.edu writes:

> Question. Doesn't a compound bow also refer to a recurved bow that is made
> up of more than one material? AFAIK, a recurved bow can be made from one
> single piece of wood that is shaped properly. It takes time, but can be
> done. But I seem to remember the horse bows of the Mongols, for example,
> being a recurved bow that was made from both animal horn and wood
laminated
> together. This was stronger than a single piece of wood, which allowed it
> to be made with a heavier pull, which in turn lead to more powerful shots
> from the bow.
>
> A modern compound bow, with the pulleys and such, was considered a
compound
> bow because it was not formed from a single piece of material, and as such
> could be made with a stronger pull for the size.

Actually, as I did into this further ... I have found a few discrepencies.
None of which invalidate the statements I have made prior.

Compound Bows are yes, bows utilizing more than one integrated component
(such as the Horse Bows of the Monguls, yes.

Complex Bows are those implementing mechanical parts ... so the "modern bow",
such as the one I had Mike hold up for the camera, is technically a Complex
Compound Bow.

Longbows are, as AE pointed out, technically not recurve. They are
considered such however for most cataloging purposes due to the fact they
most of them have a very slight curvature to their frame and are normally
one-piece in their design.

Recurve bows are those, as Mongoose pointed out, pertaining to a slight
"curve back" of the bow itself. Most of this had to do with accuracy
adjustments and platform stability. Do it this way. Put two points one inch
apart from one another. Draw a line. Now extend that line one foot further
back.

Now do the same thing, only this time put the two lines 6 inches away from
each other. If we presume (poor artisans of us all aside ;) that the line
between the two points is a "straight line", then the extended line beyond it
is also straight. Yes? You might be able to draw it, but the further away
from the points you go, the less likely the line will be to remain straight.
Such is the trick of the bow, and the difference between
Longbows/Straightbows (which yes, Mike pointed out for definition ... but
skipped yet another step in his doing so). The recurve allowed for a greater
degree of linear accuracy. That is also the reason why the English Longbow,
for all it's power, went the way of the dodo for the most part (apart from
enthusiasts and very skilled individuals who are thrilled snotless by a stick
and string that can shoot another stick almost as far as any hunting rifle on
the current market).

And, as I believe it was Diedre who pointed out, even a longbow/recurve can
be built to actually fold in the midshaft, allow for easier storage and
potentially more easily concealed transport as well.

But, as Mike also said, the reason for the bows' near-extinction (absolute
extinction in almost every military field currently I can think of), is due
to the gun's portability. The only advantage that bow has over the gun, when
taken as a whole, is silence. But even our more modern sciences can bring
low-calibre guns to near-silence as well (I'm ignoring the movies simply
because I don't trust that crap) and I also know that sniper-rifles can be
damn near-death-silent as well.

-Keith (who has realized his .SIG file is dead now as well)
Message no. 9
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:14:12 -0400
At 03:56 PM 4/25/00, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:


>Sommers wrote:
> >
> > Question. Doesn't a compound bow also refer to a recurved bow that is made
> > up of more than one material? AFAIK, a recurved bow can be made from one
> > single piece of wood that is shaped properly. It takes time, but can be
> > done. But I seem to remember the horse bows of the Mongols, for example,
> > being a recurved bow that was made from both animal horn and wood laminated
> > together. This was stronger than a single piece of wood, which allowed it
> > to be made with a heavier pull, which in turn lead to more powerful shots
> > from the bow.
>
>I believe that's a composite bow.

Thanks. That's what I was thinking of.

So you can have a straight bow, a recurved bow, a compound bow, a straight
composite bow, a recurved composite bow, a crossbow, a compound crossbow,
and a repeating crossbow.

Then there's English longbow, Mongol horse bow, Egyptian straight bow
(looks like a <), Turkish recurved bow, Japanese yumi (6 ft. and held off
center), crossbow with no crank, crossbow with separate crank, crossbow
with built in crank, crossbow with hand cocking action and a sling shot.

Did I miss anything? ;)

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 10
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:17:34 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 2:59:47 PM , xenya@********.com writes:

> > Question. Doesn't a compound bow also refer to a recurved bow that is made
> > up of more than one material? AFAIK, a recurved bow can be made from one
> > single piece of wood that is shaped properly. It takes time, but can be
> > done. But I seem to remember the horse bows of the Mongols, for example,
> > being a recurved bow that was made from both animal horn and wood
> laminated
> > together. This was stronger than a single piece of wood, which allowed it
> > to be made with a heavier pull, which in turn lead to more powerful shots
> > from the bow.
>
> I believe that's a composite bow.

Yes!! That was the other term I was forgetting. Composite/Complex ... thank
you!

-K
Message no. 11
From: Sommers sommers@*****.umich.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:29:27 -0400
At 04:10 PM 4/25/00, HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>But, as Mike also said, the reason for the bows' near-extinction (absolute
>extinction in almost every military field currently I can think of), is due
>to the gun's portability. The only advantage that bow has over the gun, when
>taken as a whole, is silence. But even our more modern sciences can bring
>low-calibre guns to near-silence as well (I'm ignoring the movies simply
>because I don't trust that crap) and I also know that sniper-rifles can be
>damn near-death-silent as well.
>
>-Keith (who has realized his .SIG file is dead now as well)

Actually, there are four reasons that I can think of to use a bow/crossbow
in SR. To a lesser extent, these are true in the real world also.

1) Silence. Still quieter than any firearm, silenced or not.
2) Penetration. Almost all modern body armor is ballistic, designed to
spread the impact of a small, somewhat rounded, projectile over a wide
area. Arrows (at least with razor heads) are pointy and sharp, and cut
through most variations of ballistic cloth (some forms of kevlar
not-withstanding). In SR, goes off of lower Impact rating.
3) Wounding. A gunshot can make a large would and do a lot of damage,
enough to kill with a small projectile. An arrow is a large projectile that
many times will not kill right away (many deer shot during bow season limp
away after being hit to bleed to death later). You also have a large stick
sticking out of the target, interfering with movement and encouraging
shock. No game effects by canon, although I have a house rule that arrows
and bolts cause extra damage when left in and the victim moves, and extra
damage to remove it.
4) Awakened critters. No correspondence to RL, but for critters with
weaknesses (vampire->wood), an arrow will do more damage when properly
modified than a bullet will.

Comments?

Sommers
Aerospace engineers build weapon systems. Civil engineers build targets.
Message no. 12
From: Deirdre M. Brooks xenya@********.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:40:20 -0700
HHackerH@***.com wrote:
>
> And, as I believe it was Diedre who pointed out, even a longbow/recurve can
> be built to actually fold in the midshaft, allow for easier storage and
> potentially more easily concealed transport as well.

That wasn't me. I muddied the "bow name/category" waters.

Thanks for all the information on bows, however. It matches my
expectations.

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks | xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Listowner: Aberrants_Worldwide, Fading_Suns_Games, TrinityRPG
"If you loved me, you'd all kill yourselves today."
-- Spider Jerusalem | http://www.teleport.com/~xenya
Message no. 13
From: Yiannakos Yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:44:15 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sommers" <sommers@*****.umich.edu>

> Actually, there are four reasons that I can think of to use a bow/crossbow
> in SR. To a lesser extent, these are true in the real world also.
>
> 1) Silence. Still quieter than any firearm, silenced or not.
> 2) Penetration. Almost all modern body armor is ballistic, designed to
> spread the impact of a small, somewhat rounded, projectile over a wide
> area. Arrows (at least with razor heads) are pointy and sharp, and cut
> through most variations of ballistic cloth (some forms of kevlar
> not-withstanding). In SR, goes off of lower Impact rating.
> 3) Wounding. A gunshot can make a large would and do a lot of damage,
> enough to kill with a small projectile. An arrow is a large projectile
that
> many times will not kill right away (many deer shot during bow season limp
> away after being hit to bleed to death later). You also have a large stick
> sticking out of the target, interfering with movement and encouraging
> shock. No game effects by canon, although I have a house rule that arrows
> and bolts cause extra damage when left in and the victim moves, and extra
> damage to remove it.
> 4) Awakened critters. No correspondence to RL, but for critters with
> weaknesses (vampire->wood), an arrow will do more damage when properly
> modified than a bullet will.
>
> Comments?
>
> Sommers

Another reason is that, IIRC, hospitals and doctor's offices are required by
law to report gunshot wounds to the police, whereas they are not required to
report arrow wounds. It doesn't necessarily make sense, but if you're trying
to be discreet, it can be an advantage. Also, whether or not this would
still be the case in sixty years is anyone's guess.

All this info is based on vague recollection. If anyone knows better, feel
free to contradict.

---Dave ('s not here man)
Message no. 14
From: Phil pames@*****.net
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 16:29:25 -0500
At 04:14 PM 4/25/2000 -0400, you wrote:
>At 03:56 PM 4/25/00, Deirdre M. Brooks wrote:
>
>
>
>Then there's English longbow, Mongol horse bow, Egyptian straight bow
>(looks like a <), Turkish recurved bow, Japanese yumi (6 ft. and held off
>center), crossbow with no crank, crossbow with separate crank, crossbow
>with built in crank, crossbow with hand cocking action and a sling shot.
>
>Did I miss anything? ;)
>


Pelletbow/Stonebow: Crossbow Slingshot hybrid; rock in a pouch fired
through a tube on the stock of the bow. Repeating crossbow: Magazine with,
what, five or so bolts in it? No fletching, poor materials.

Phil
Message no. 15
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:34:29 -0500
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:38:57 -0400 Sommers <sommers@*****.umich.edu>
writes:
<SNIP>
> A modern compound bow, with the pulleys and such, was considered a
> compound
> bow because it was not formed from a single piece of material, and
> as such
> could be made with a stronger pull for the size.

I don't think so. I think the compound bow is called a compound because
it uses a compound pulley system or something :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

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Message no. 16
From: Airwisp@***.com Airwisp@***.com
Subject: Bow Details (Smartlink Bows Foundation)
Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:34:56 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/2000 4:37:20 PM , pames@*****.net writes:

> Then there's English longbow, Mongol horse bow, Egyptian straight bow
> >(looks like a <), Turkish recurved bow, Japanese yumi (6 ft. and held off
> >center), crossbow with no crank, crossbow with separate crank, crossbow
> >with built in crank, crossbow with hand cocking action and a sling shot.
> >
> >Did I miss anything? ;)
> >
>
>
> Pelletbow/Stonebow: Crossbow Slingshot hybrid; rock in a pouch fired
> through a tube on the stock of the bow. Repeating crossbow: Magazine with,
> what, five or so bolts in it? No fletching, poor materials.
>
Thanks Phil, I'd forgotten about that one too ...

-Mike

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