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Message no. 1
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 02:13:38 +0000
Hmmm...

I have recently created a character who has no Firearms skill, and
his main weapon (well, besides his hands and knives) is a bow. And,
when reviewing the SR rules concerning archery, I saw that bows were
severely shortchanged in comparison to crossbows.
I am talking about the rate of fire, which is the same in both cases
(simple action to ready and simple action to shoot). This is
ludicrous. After all, the main advantage of the bow was it's high
rate of fire...
So, I came up with this simple solution: make the readying of a bow
a free action (though I think this would require easy acces to
arrows, like stuck in the ground before you, or in a quiver on your
hip). This way, you get 3 shots from a bow each 2 combat phases,
whereas you get 2 shots from a crossbow each 2 combat rounds.
This makes bow slower then SA weapons (figures), faster then SS
weapons (kinda figures, too) and faster then crossbows (which are
still too fast... Maybe make readying a crossbow a complex action,
and increase the power slightly to reflect the power of your average
x-bow).
Oh, yeah, and arrows and bolts are resisted by Impact armor (I hope
this written somewhere...)

I also hope this is not one of the "once a week" topics on this
list... (It was not in the FAQ, anyway)...

Oh, yeah, the newbie intro (I hate that part):
Hello. I'm a newbie to this RPG biz. I joined this list 'cause I just
started playing ShadowRun. This is a really cool game, and makes for
a nice change after my four months AD&D campaign. At least I could
retire my level 19/19/19 Drow Fighter/Mage/Cleric that had attained
demigod status... I'm currently creating a similar character for SR.
My main complaint is that I have only one A category... This creation
system is Dumb. (And is there a ShadowRun Drow race? And what is this
funny "munchkin" term some people use on the Internet?).







<grin, duck & run>

Mike (Leszek Karlik): http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike/index.htm
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Message no. 2
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:24:23 +0000
Hmmm...

> From: Barbie <barbie@**********.com>
> [snip bow-crossbow]
>
> I would rule that the crossbow needs a complex action to ready.
> And keep the bow at a simple action.
> Makes life easy for all and keeps the bow from been owerpowered.

Hmmm... Yeah, I kinda like it.

<stupid stuff I wrote at 3 am snipped>

> Yep its a coolgame.
> If you want some fancierstuff for character generation I suggest you to get a
> copy of
> the SR companion. Something like the drow is included too.

Yep, I know. However, I'm not living in States. I bought most of my
Star Wars rulebooks by direct mail order from States and it was
faster than waiting for them to appear in my local RPG shop. :((

> Munchkin, just stay a bit with us and you will know.

I know the term... I was just being kinda sarcastic. Still, I would
classify myself as a slight min-maxer (OK, so I do have powergaming
tendencies. Sue me. I guess it's from watching too many Seagal
movies... :P ).


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@******.com; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae Palatinae
(Emperor's Hammer)
I looked up my wife's family tree - half the family were still living in it!
Message no. 3
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 04:24:23 +0000
Hmmm...

From: mbreton@**.netcom.com (Matb)

> >ludicrous. After all, the main advantage of the bow was it's high
> >rate of fire...
>
> Mechanical crossbows, maybe?

I doubt it. Something like this should be mentioned, after all...

> >still too fast... Maybe make readying a crossbow a complex action,
> >and increase the power slightly to reflect the power of your average
> >x-bow).
>
> Crossbows need a power boost, considering the damage a Troll can wreak
> with a compound bow. (And then add on Dikoted arrowheads and a
> smartlink....)

Yeah, that's what I think, too... Like, add +2 to the power of
crossbow bolts... (Kinda figures, since they did pierce the armour
quite easily).

OTOH, Troll with a compound bow can and should wreak damage. Bow is
better than a crossbow, and x-bows are stronger only because they use
stronger materials, able to store more energy. Now, the bow has
longer arms, so a bow with a tensile strength of a crossbow bow would
be a truely fearsome weapon (and a one only usable by a troll...).

> It's why they're under the header "Impact Projectile Weapons" in the
> Weapons section. It's a bit clearer in the armor section.

OK... I see...

(intro snipped)

Ummm... I was just kidding about the AD&D and f/m/c character
(who, BTW, could not be created according to AD&D rules...).

> I've seen newbies try and pass off characters with all "A" priorities
> before, sigh. If you want a different creation system, take a gander
> at the Shadowrun Companion, which provides two alternatives.

Oh, yeah. I guess I should issue a small correction here:
In reality, I play RPG's from four years, and SR from 2 years. (I
also happen to like SR mechanics of successes, and prefer them to
adding of all the damn D6s in Star Wars...)

And, unfortunately, here in Poland my GM buys what is available, and
not what he wants... No Companion... <sigh>

> It's also got what comes closest to SR Drow, the Night Ones. They
> don't live underground, but they don't like daylight either (nor are
> they all ambidextrous or magic-users -- sorry, but I really hated Drow
> in AD&D, Drizz't included.)

Yeah. But AFAIK there were no Night Ones in the Fourth World, now
were they (OTOH ED shows only a small portion of the fourth world, so
one does not need to be constrained by the 8 Name-Giver races...).

> And, um, there aren't any Fighter/Mage/Clerics in SR. There aren't
> classes. (You could say mages are hermetics and clerics are shamans,
> but you can't be both.)

I know.. That's why I like non-classed systems (umm... that would be
GURPS, Star Wars, SR, Amber and lotsa others..). That's also why I
don't like CP2020...


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@******.com; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae Palatinae
(Emperor's Hammer)
Phoneco.sys corrupted - recommend competitive market
Message no. 4
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 11:28:23 +0100
Mike (Leszek Karlik) said on 2:13/20 Jul 97...

> So, I came up with this simple solution: make the readying of a bow
> a free action (though I think this would require easy acces to
> arrows, like stuck in the ground before you, or in a quiver on your
> hip). This way, you get 3 shots from a bow each 2 combat phases,
> whereas you get 2 shots from a crossbow each 2 combat rounds.

Erm... What exactly do you mean by "readying" a bow? Putting an arrow on
the bow? Drawing the string back so you can shoot the weapon? That'd mean
you can shoot the bow once per Combat Phase: you have to spend a Free
Action to "ready" it, and then a Simple Action to shoot, if I read you
correctly. *waits for Dvixen to point out the proper archery terms :) *

> This makes bow slower then SA weapons (figures), faster then SS
> weapons (kinda figures, too) and faster then crossbows (which are
> still too fast... Maybe make readying a crossbow a complex action,
> and increase the power slightly to reflect the power of your average
> x-bow).

I have a feeling I'm not quite on the same wavelength as you are, though,
since it looks to me like you still have the same ROF as a crossbow.

> Oh, yeah, and arrows and bolts are resisted by Impact armor (I hope
> this written somewhere...)

Yes, that's in the section about body armor (SRII page 242).

> I also hope this is not one of the "once a week" topics on this
> list... (It was not in the FAQ, anyway)...

Not exactly, it may have been brought up before (there's a big chance of
that) but definitely not on any regular basis, unlike several other
topics.

> Oh, yeah, the newbie intro (I hate that part):

Welcome to the list :)

> My main complaint is that I have only one A category... This creation
> system is Dumb.

Use the optional "add to 10" system from the Companion, then. That way you
can get two A priorities plus three E's :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
All these worthless nights, all these wasted days
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 5
From: "Mike (Leszek Karlik)" <trrkt@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 21:25:43 +0000
Hmmm...

> > So, I came up with this simple solution: make the readying of a bow
> > a free action (though I think this would require easy acces to
> > arrows, like stuck in the ground before you, or in a quiver on your
> > hip). This way, you get 3 shots from a bow each 2 combat phases,
> > whereas you get 2 shots from a crossbow each 2 combat rounds.
>
> Erm... What exactly do you mean by "readying" a bow? Putting an arrow on
> the bow? Drawing the string back so you can shoot the weapon? That'd mean

I think it would be just the nocking of the bow... Now, drawing it is
done when you shoot - draw and loose...

> you can shoot the bow once per Combat Phase: you have to spend a Free
> Action to "ready" it, and then a Simple Action to shoot, if I read you

Free action to ready it, simple to shoot, simple to ready (next
phase)
simple to shoot, free to ready, simple to shoot. (next phase)


> correctly. *waits for Dvixen to point out the proper archery terms :) *

> I have a feeling I'm not quite on the same wavelength as you are, though,
> since it looks to me like you still have the same ROF as a crossbow.

See above...

> > I also hope this is not one of the "once a week" topics on this
> > list... (It was not in the FAQ, anyway)...
>
> Not exactly, it may have been brought up before (there's a big chance of
> that) but definitely not on any regular basis, unlike several other
> topics.


> > Oh, yeah, the newbie intro (I hate that part):
>
> Welcome to the list :)

Thanks... :>

> > My main complaint is that I have only one A category... This creation
> > system is Dumb.
>
> Use the optional "add to 10" system from the Companion, then. That way you
> can get two A priorities plus three E's :)

a) I have no Companion :(
b) I don't need no steenkin A's! :P I was just kidding...


Mike (Leszek Karlik) - trrkt@******.com; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike
FL/GN Leszek/Raptor II/ISD Vanguard, (ISM) {IWATS-IIC} JH(Sith)/House Scholae Palatinae
(Emperor's Hammer)
Nothing succeeds like a parrot.
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 18:06:28 -0600
Mike wrote:
|
| when reviewing the SR rules concerning archery, I saw that bows were
| severely shortchanged in comparison to crossbows.
| I am talking about the rate of fire, which is the same in both cases
| (simple action to ready and simple action to shoot). This is
| ludicrous. After all, the main advantage of the bow was it's high
| rate of fire...

Um, no. The advantage of a crossbow is that just about anyone can use it.
Bows require a fair ammount of strength and training.

| So, I came up with this simple solution: make the readying of a bow
| a free action (though I think this would require easy acces to
| arrows, like stuck in the ground before you, or in a quiver on your
| hip).

I disagree. "Free actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic
actions that require little or no effort to accomplish." Picking up
an arrow is pretty easy, but nocking(sp?) the thing requires some
concentration (I have a fair ammount of RL experience on this one).

| Maybe make readying a crossbow a complex action,

"A Complex Action requires the most intense concentration of all the
possible action types." IMO, readying a crossbow doesn't fit into
this category. It's the reverse of readying a bow, pull back the
line, load the bolt, and you're ready to go.

| I also hope this is not one of the "once a week" topics on this
| list... (It was not in the FAQ, anyway)...

Naw, this one only comes up about once a year :)

[snip: 19/19/19 Drow Fighter/Mage/Cleric. What's a munchkin?]

| <grin, duck & run>

Gah! ;)

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 7
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 04:13:37 -0500
At 20-Jul-97 wrote David Buehrer:


>| Maybe make readying a crossbow a complex action,

>"A Complex Action requires the most intense concentration of all the
>possible action types." IMO, readying a crossbow doesn't fit into
>this category. It's the reverse of readying a bow, pull back the
>line, load the bolt, and you're ready to go.

I think a complex action is not only defined by the concentration
you need but its also a matter of time which you need to do something.
And readying a crossbow takes longer than a bow, especialy for the
heavier ones. So I thing a complex action is OK.
And after your course of action it would be two simples so no real difference.
A bow would be faster because you pull the string back with the arrow.

--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 8
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 01:44:13 -0600
David wrote:
I disagree. "Free actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic
actions that require little or no effort to accomplish." Picking up
an arrow is pretty easy, but nocking(sp?) the thing requires some
concentration (I have a fair ammount of RL experience on this one).

Wrong! (no offense) but knocking an arrow is natural, I have some
experience in archery (won a couple kid tourneys) I don't know the SR
equivenenlt of the skill level (maybe 4/5) at that level maybe lower It
defiantly should be a free action!
Message no. 9
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:21:55 -0600
Caun Haskins wrote:
|
| David wrote:
| I disagree. "Free actions are relatively simple, nearly automatic
| actions that require little or no effort to accomplish." Picking up
| an arrow is pretty easy, but nocking(sp?) the thing requires some
| concentration (I have a fair ammount of RL experience on this one).
|
| Wrong! (no offense) but knocking an arrow is natural, I have some
| experience in archery (won a couple kid tourneys) I don't know the SR
| equivenenlt of the skill level (maybe 4/5) at that level maybe lower It
| defiantly should be a free action!

Well, it's not just how easy it is, but how much time it takes in SR
terms, IMO (and I think SR's opinion too, but I've been wrong on that
before :)

Look at the list of Free Actions. Each one takes about 1/10 of a
second. Now the list of Simple Actions. Each one is no longer than
1/2 a second. I don't know about you, but even if I do it perfectly
I can't ready a bow in the time it takes to change gun mode, change
position, fire a weapon, insert a clip, etc. So I think FASA is
being very generous in allowing a character to ready a bow with a
Simple Action. Now, they may be overly generous in allowing a
character to ready a crossbow with a Simple Action. I'd require a
complex action. And that may be the best solution of all, IMHO.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 10
From: Caun Haskins <caun@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bows and crossbows
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 00:00:53 -0600
> Look at the list of Free Actions. Each one takes about 1/10 of a
> second. Now the list of Simple Actions. Each one is no longer than
> 1/2 a second. I don't know about you, but even if I do it perfectly
> I can't ready a bow in the time it takes to change gun mode, change
> position, fire a weapon, insert a clip, etc. So I think FASA is
> being very generous in allowing a character to ready a bow with a
> Simple Action. Now, they may be overly generous in allowing a
> character to ready a crossbow with a Simple Action. I'd require a
> complex action. And that may be the best solution of all, IMHO.
>
> -David
>
You're right, it does take some time, though I do know people that can
do it quicker than I can do most of the free actions. making a crossbow
a complex would solve the problem much better (I still can't use a
crossbow very well and have never seen anybody ready one very quick) So
if whoever started this thread is still reading, that IMO is what you
should do (if you haven't already made your dicision :)
Hope we helped som

Caun :}

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