Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 08:55:00 2001
Hey everyone.

While I was sitting on my balkony, having a good time, a question
arose in the back of my head: How do you all percieve the use of
brandnames in SR. It has always seemed to me, as if they didn't go as
far with it as they should have. I mean take a look at - say - a
Chromebook. You have the CYBERMATRIX Gang Jazzler (or whatever it's
called), in SR you have a Shock Hand. Does anyone else feel a certain
lack of texture here? How about different grades of chrome? OK, SR
has it's twisted greek letters, but it's not as if I buy cybereyes
and someone looks into my eyes and goes "Wow, shit chummer, Zeiss
IKON, you're a SimSense-Star, or what?"
Toughts?

Zixx
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 09:35:00 2001
>>> Zixx <zixx@****.org> 07/05/01 08:03AM >>>
Hey everyone.

While I was sitting on my balkony, having a good time, a question
arose in the back of my head: How do you all percieve the use of
brandnames in SR. It has always seemed to me, as if they didn't go as
far with it as they should have. I mean take a look at - say - a
Chromebook. You have the CYBERMATRIX Gang Jazzler (or whatever it's
called), in SR you have a Shock Hand. Does anyone else feel a certain
lack of texture here? How about different grades of chrome? OK, SR
has it's twisted greek letters, but it's not as if I buy cybereyes
and someone looks into my eyes and goes "Wow, shit chummer, Zeiss
IKON, you're a SimSense-Star, or what?"
Toughts?
<<<<<

For the most part, you're right. The gear in Shadowrun has a very bland, generic factor
to it. More could have been done with it, I think...

I know the general reasoning behind it all, for the most part. Lots of companies make
cyberware. I'm not just talking Ares or Renraku here, but hundreds of sub-sub-sub
corporations under Renraku and Ares make cyberware. Hundreds of smaller, non-AAA Mega's
make cyberware. So that's a lot of different brands. So calling the cybereyes
"Zeiss" may sound good, but implies a bit too heavily that 99% of the cybereyes
you'll find out there are Zeiss.

To take this a bit further, look at VCR's, Computers, or hell, even Cars. With a few
exceptions, for the most part theres only one way to tell the difference between 95% ofthe
VCRs and Cars out there, and that's to take a look at the manufacturers Logo. A lot fo
times, that's the only real difference between the Zenith and the Sony sitting side by
side.

Computers are even worse, because A) Brand names mean little anymore, and B) You can't
tell just by looking at a computer whats inside it, even with the brand name. Knowing
that I have a Hewlett pckard at work and a gateway at home, does that give you any idea
what's inside?

Cyberwares the same way, except worse... No Logo. there's probably SOMETHING there,
somewhere, if you examine it very closely, but... Knowing that there's an Ares
LetterOpener(tm) logo on this dudes Cyber Spurs as he's slicing you open isn't going to
mean much anyways, and do you think he's REALLY gonna hold still while you peer at the
claw for a small logo engraved on the meta somewhere?

Cybereyes are Cybereyes. they're gonna all more or less look the same. There maybe
certain coloration or other differences that stand out somehow so that someone COULD
recognize them (Only Aztechnologies Spring 2062 line of Dermal Sheathing comes in floral
prints. Only Zeiss IKON Pink Pearl Cybereyes(tm) come in flourescent pink.), but most
cybereyes are all gonna look the same unless you can take them out and look at the
circuitry or something.

That being said, I understand why it's not necessarily there. However, it would have been
nice for consitancies sake, to some degree. After all, Cyberdecks and vehicles all have
distinct brand names. But this avoids some of the problems those have had. It gets REAL
boring when every speedy bike out there is a Rapier, and every cyberdeck of a certain size
is a Fuchi-Cyber 6 (or whatever the new equivelant is).

Rigger 3 went a ways towards fixing this when they gave a number of "Alternate"
names for the vehicles, to give them some variety. And this is a pattern I'd love to see
repeated, as it does give a little extra something.

Bull

--
The Best Ork Decker You've Never Met!
http://bull.dumpshock.com
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 14:00:03 2001
According to Steven Ratkovich, on Thu, 05 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> I know the general reasoning behind it all, for the most part. Lots of
> companies make cyberware. I'm not just talking Ares or Renraku here, but
> hundreds of sub-sub-sub corporations under Renraku and Ares make
> cyberware. Hundreds of smaller, non-AAA Mega's make cyberware. So that's
> a lot of different brands. So calling the cybereyes "Zeiss" may sound
> good, but implies a bit too heavily that 99% of the cybereyes you'll find
> out there are Zeiss.

I think this reasoning works well for items of which there are many around,
or which are inherently generic. Cybereyes, datajacks, smartlinks and so on
would have many manufacturers, and so trying to put a name on all of them
isn't such a good idea. But for other types of item, perhaps a
manufacturer's name would be a good idea. Cyberpunk 2020 seems to strike a
very good balance between the two approaches: generic items usually have no
manufacturer mentioned, but the more unique ones do have a brand name.

> Computers are even worse, because A) Brand names mean little anymore,
> and B) You can't tell just by looking at a computer whats inside it, even
> with the brand name.

Putting computers well into the "generic" group. But OTOH, I doubt there
would be fifty manufacturers of simrigs in the world (and if there are,
it's most likely just a different name badge on the same three
manufacturers' products) so for those a name might make sense.

> Knowing that I have a Hewlett pckard at work and a
> gateway at home, does that give you any idea what's inside?

My computer is also a good example. I bought it as individual parts, almost
six years ago, since then it's been upgraded fairly regularly, and has had
a whole new motherboard put into the same casing twice. I don't buy brand
name computers, I just buy whatever seems to work best for its price range,
and stick it into the machine.

> Rigger 3 went a ways towards fixing this when they gave a number of
> "Alternate" names for the vehicles, to give them some variety. And this
> is a pattern I'd love to see repeated, as it does give a little extra
> something.

This would help a lot for many generic items, although I am aware that it
would add a lot to the books' word counts to have a line with "Sample
manufacturers/models" at the end of each and every generic item's
description...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 14:50:01 2001
Steven Ratkovich wrote:


(Hey Bull, how's life :))

> For the most part, you're right. The gear in Shadowrun has a very
> bland, generic factor to it. More could have been done with it, I
> think...
>
> I know the general reasoning behind it all, for the most part.
> Lots of companies make cyberware. I'm not just talking Ares or
> Renraku here, but hundreds of sub-sub-sub corporations under
> Renraku and Ares make cyberware. Hundreds of smaller, non-AAA
> Mega's make cyberware. So that's a lot of different brands. So
> calling the cybereyes "Zeiss" may sound good, but implies a bit too
> heavily that 99% of the cybereyes you'll find out there are Zeiss.

Not actually what I meant. You see, I finally got myself to write my
own cyberpunk-game that's been dangling in my head for years. So I
decided that I would just have some choice in it. You can buy
serveral different cybereyes, different quality and different price.
Suddenly you have some brandawareness in players. It's definitly
cooler to have Zeiss eyes that Fuji, right? Sure, having just one set
of cybereyes with a brandname is a lousy idea, but have five and
things are quit different.
We're talking style here :)

> Computers are even worse, because A) Brand names mean little
> anymore, and B) You can't tell just by looking at a computer whats
> inside it, even with the brand name. Knowing that I have a Hewlett
> pckard at work and a gateway at home, does that give you any idea
> what's inside?

Well, it's not that much about (current day) realism than
athmosphere. Remember Gibson? Having a Hosaka Ono-Sendai Cyber 7 is
much better for the athmosphere that a "Generic cyberdeck, rating 7".

> Cyberwares the same way, except worse... No Logo. there's
> probably SOMETHING there, somewhere, if you examine it very
> closely, but... Knowing that there's an Ares LetterOpener(tm) logo
> on this dudes Cyber Spurs as he's slicing you open isn't going to
> mean much anyways, and do you think he's REALLY gonna hold still
> while you peer at the claw for a small logo engraved on the meta
> somewhere?

Nope. But showing off in a bar, he'll wait until *everyone* has seen
it. "LetterOpener"...nice.

> Cybereyes are Cybereyes. they're gonna all more or less look the
> same. There maybe certain coloration or other differences that
> stand out somehow so that someone COULD recognize them (Only
> Aztechnologies Spring 2062 line of Dermal Sheathing comes in floral
> prints. Only Zeiss IKON Pink Pearl Cybereyes(tm) come in
> flourescent pink.), but most cybereyes are all gonna look the same
> unless you can take them out and look at the circuitry or
> something.

There was this very neat picture in FOF, where you (IIRC) could read
the brandname inside some girl's eye. Besides, if there's
brandawareness, people will make it clear what they have. Maybe the
little "Zeiss IKON" you can read when you look her deep in the
eyes....

> That being said, I understand why it's not necessarily there.
> However, it would have been nice for consitancies sake, to some
> degree. After all, Cyberdecks and vehicles all have distinct brand
> names. But this avoids some of the problems those have had. It
> gets REAL boring when every speedy bike out there is a Rapier, and
> every cyberdeck of a certain size is a Fuchi-Cyber 6 (or whatever
> the new equivelant is).

That's why I'm always for serverel pieces in every class.

> Rigger 3 went a ways towards fixing this when they gave a number of
> "Alternate" names for the vehicles, to give them some variety. And
> this is a pattern I'd love to see repeated, as it does give a
> little extra something.

Hmmm....maybe I should go and buy R3....although I don't play SR
anymore, anyway...

Zixx
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (S O'Neill)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 15:10:01 2001
***disengage lurk mode***


Zixx <zixx@****.org> posted thusly
>While I was sitting on my balkony, having a good time, a question
>arose in the back of my head: How do you all percieve the use of
>brandnames in SR.
<snip>

and

"Steven Ratkovich" <RatkovSM@*********.com> responded thus:
>For the most part, you're right. The gear in Shadowrun has a very bland,
>generic factor to it. ... Lots of companies make cyberware...So calling
>the cybereyes "Zeiss" may sound good, but implies a bit too heavily that
>99% of the cybereyes you'll find out there are Zeiss....Cybereyes are
>Cybereyes. they're gonna all more or less look the same. .... But this
>avoids some of the problems those have had. It gets REAL boring when every
>speedy bike out there is a Rapier, and every cyberdeck of a certain size is
>a Fuchi-Cyber 6 (or whatever the new equivelant is).....Rigger 3 went a
>ways towards fixing this when they gave a number of "Alternate" names for
>the vehicles, to give them some variety. And this is a pattern I'd love to
>see repeated, as it does give a little extra something.
>Bull


One of the tricky bits with names of products in Shadowrun is that most of
the sourcebooks are set up (or at least USED TO BE setup) like a sort of
catalog, with only one product matching each piece of 'ware or whatever.
Flavour text often talked about certain companies that manufactured that
product, but there was never branding of the cyberware and such.

However, for myself and those I game with, flavour and diversity are very
important. We almost NEVER leave all of our gear alone when it comes time to
naming it. Even back when we played 1st edition, we were unsatisfied with
simply using just another Ares Predator to shoot people with. Instead, we'd
claim to be using an "Dai-Sung StreetLethal", the Korean-made knockoff of
the Predator. Rather than simply having "Wired Reflexes 2", my samurai might
have a "Nakatomi Series 200 Reflex Augmentation Suite". All it takes is a
small note on the character sheet or whatever so you know what stats to use
for the game. But when you're _roleplaying_, you can call it whatcha like,
no?

To answer Zixx's original question directly, I think brands are HUGE in the
2060s. In a fiercely competitive global market, branding and logos and
differentiation are going to be key! Maybe me being a RL marketing flack is
tempering this perception a bit, but I don't think I'm that far off.

Realistically though, there's two options for the writer in creating a new
gun or a new piece of chrome and slapping it in a sourcebook. Go generic or
go specific. In the past, most cyber in SR books has been generic. In other
books (i.e. CP2020 chromebooks) it gets very very specific.

One answer is to simply address the 'problem' with roleplaying. Yeah, the
book says that it's an Ares Predator. Do what I do and rename it, talk about
it as something else, so long as you know what stats to use when it comes
time to roll the dice. Simple, elegant, easy.

Another answer, more in keeping with the Shadowrun tradition of making
things as needlessly complex as possible, is to take this issue of brands
and manufacturers of similar products would be to generate a system whereby
any product in the game gets a 'quality' rating, analagous to the Lifestyle
table, something like this:

Hospitalized-->Unique/Custom
Luxury-->Elite
High-->Very Good
Middle-->Average
Low-->Substandard/knockoff
Street-->Kluge

then, perhaps a table is in order to note the advantages and disadvantages
of varying qualities of product:

Unique: Price x5, +4 to appropriate social skills
Elite: Price x4, +3 to app. social skills
Very Good: Price x2, +1 to app. social skills
Average: Price is the same, +0 to app. social skills
Substandard: Price x.9, -1 to app. social skills
Kluge: Price x.5, -3 to app. social skills

then, you can take every product in Shadowrun, from toenail clippers to main
battle tanks, and apply the factors from the table. Perhaps you also
generate a quick list of unique, elite, very good, average, substandard and
kluge manufacturers and perhaps model names, to help out those that don't
want to devise their own corporate names and stuff

Applying this to something simple, like Dermal Plating Level 1:

Unique: BodyGuard Custom(tm), by Klein Aftermarket Additions
Elite: Sculpted Security(tm), by DKNY/Nakatomi
Very Good: SecondSkin(tm), by Ares Personal Security Products
Average: DermaPlast Series 100(tm), by Universal Omnitech
Substandard: TuffSkin(tm), by Kalvin Klone [vietnamese knockoff of CK? :)]
Kluge: Personal Dermal Armor Kit, by D-I-Y CyberIndustries (surgery
instructions included!!)

I'm veering into sarcasm a bit here, and I think that actually putting in
place a GAME SYSTEM when simple ROLEPLAYING would suffice is going a bit
far. But hopefully there's a grain or two of good idea in what I've written.

Bull makes a good point that many products do appear the same on the
surface. But I'd say that if you're a real fanatic about something, then you
KNOW the difference, and if you're excited about it, you FLAUNT the
difference. Otherwise we'd all wear the same clothes, drive the same cars
and eat at the same places. I mean hell, Burger King ain't that much
different from McDonalds. They both serve mostly beef stuff, with various
additional products. But there's loyal fanatics for both chains that won't
eat at the other. Myself, I jokingly mock my father-in-law for driving a
Ford Taurus despite the car being only superficially different from my
Chrysler Intrepid. Translate this to Shadowrun, to 2060, and you have brand
war at an unprecedented level and some really fun opportunities for
roleplaying. I'm rambling now so i'll just shaddup and go back to lurking.

Callahan

_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Steven Ratkovich)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 15:25:01 2001
>>> Zixx <zixx@****.org> 07/05/01 01:57PM >>>
(Hey Bull, how's life :))
<<<<
Eh, ok... Could be worse, though I finally got one of those Lives that everyone said I
should get, and I've found it's highly over-rated. :]

I'll be better when YotC FINALLY gets published... I'll FINALLY be acle to say I'm
actually a Writer :] Hell, I may even eventually get paid for it :]

>>>>
Not actually what I meant. You see, I finally got myself to write my
own cyberpunk-game that's been dangling in my head for years. So I
decided that I would just have some choice in it. You can buy
serveral different cybereyes, different quality and different price.
Suddenly you have some brandawareness in players. It's definitly
cooler to have Zeiss eyes that Fuji, right? Sure, having just one set
of cybereyes with a brandname is a lousy idea, but have five and
things are quit different.
We're talking style here :)
<<<<<
[Ker Snippy]

Ok, first off, i want to preface this by saying I agree with you 100%. I meant what I
said about the Rigger 3 bit, even if it's as simple as a little line under the Honda
Viking mentioning "Other similar bikes Include the Harley RoadHawg and the Kawasaki
RiceChugger" (At work, so making up names, obviously :))

Ok, now I play Devil's Advocate, because I know both "Sides". The
"Alternate names" is purly flavor, and adds only a little to the word count, so
It's possibly doable in future products. Granted, even 10 words to 300 entries means that
you're losing 3000 words, which can be an entire small section of other material that
could be in the book. But, it's doable.

However, I'd be willing to bet you'll never see anything more intricate than that, because
it would be way too bulky. As it is people complain about how much the core books cost
and how many there are... It would be really nice to have a definate: Cybereyes, 1000
Nuyen for "regular eyes". 1500 for Zeiss IKON high fashion. 900 for Fuchi
Re-Issues. This is more realistic, but what would happen is that A) that's 10 extra
words, and only covers *2* brand names. See above for more on that, and B) a couple
people would bother with Zeiss, and everyone else would take Fuchi because they're cheaper
han "regular" eyes. Not including a "Cheaper" would keep things even,
unless of course there was an actual "Failure" chance or rule for the Cheapo
whatever (Besides lame Shadowtalk saying that the item in question falls apart. Good
flavor, bad for game mechanics".

I love the idea, but... Not as parctical as it needs to be, sadly enough.

>>>>>
Nope. But showing off in a bar, he'll wait until *everyone* has seen
it. "LetterOpener"...nice.
<<<<<

Thanks, I thought it was cute myself. :]

Bull



--
The Best Ork Decker You've Never Met!
http://bull.dumpshock.com
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 15:50:01 2001
S O'Neill wrote:
> ***disengage lurk mode***

Good :)


> However, for myself and those I game with, flavour and diversity
> are very important. We almost NEVER leave all of our gear alone
> when it comes time to naming it. Even back when we played 1st
> edition, we were unsatisfied with simply using just another Ares
> Predator to shoot people with. Instead, we'd claim to be using an
> "Dai-Sung StreetLethal", the Korean-made knockoff of the Predator.
> Rather than simply having "Wired Reflexes 2", my samurai might have
> a "Nakatomi Series 200 Reflex Augmentation Suite". All it takes is
> a small note on the character sheet or whatever so you know what
> stats to use for the game. But when you're _roleplaying_, you can
> call it whatcha like, no?

That's it. It's just that quite frankly, it's a lot of work and real
brand awareness need everyone to know pretty much all the items. You
just don't want eveyone to go "Hey, I've thought of a new set of
wired2. It's named <whatever> and is absolutly the best you can get",
repeat for the number of players with wired2....


> To answer Zixx's original question directly, I think brands are
> HUGE in the 2060s. In a fiercely competitive global market,
> branding and logos and differentiation are going to be key! Maybe
> me being a RL marketing flack is tempering this perception a bit,
> but I don't think I'm that far off.

Take a look around. Brand awareness is getting bigger and bigger
(along wiht marketing departments. I just read a quote by some guy
today, who claims that marketing is 80% of what makes a business
successful...if he's right, I'm scared :))

[SNIPPED RULES]

> I'm veering into sarcasm a bit here, and I think that actually
> putting in place a GAME SYSTEM when simple ROLEPLAYING would
> suffice is going a bit far. But hopefully there's a grain or two of
> good idea in what I've written.

I think actually writing down rules is a bit over the top, because
quite frankly, it's *only* about roleplaying. SR doesn't have a
resolution high enough to make some "slightly better" spurs or
anything, you'd instantly push the inferior product from the market.
So maybe make some items that are in the +/-10% area (price) that are
more or less cool/stylish.

> Bull makes a good point that many products do appear the same on
> the surface. But I'd say that if you're a real fanatic about
> something, then you KNOW the difference, and if you're excited
> about it, you FLAUNT the difference. Otherwise we'd all wear the
> same clothes, drive the same cars and eat at the same places. I
> mean hell, Burger King ain't that much different from McDonalds.
> They both serve mostly beef stuff, with various additional
> products. But there's loyal fanatics for both chains that won't eat
> at the other.

BK rules! :)

> Myself, I jokingly mock my father-in-law for driving
> a Ford Taurus despite the car being only superficially different
> from my Chrysler Intrepid. Translate this to Shadowrun, to 2060,
> and you have brand war at an unprecedented level and some really
> fun opportunities for roleplaying. I'm rambling now so i'll just
> shaddup and go back to lurking.

That's the idea. What about some cybered up samurai getting excited
about what smartlink that use ("ARES?!? Sorry, man not inside my
body!" <Other sam snaps out spurs> "Wanna bet!?").

Zixx
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (John Pederson)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 16:15:01 2001
<much snippage>
> Cybereyes are Cybereyes. they're gonna all more or less look the
> same. There maybe certain coloration or other differences that
> stand out somehow so that someone COULD recognize them (Only
> Aztechnologies Spring 2062 line of Dermal Sheathing comes in floral
> prints. Only Zeiss IKON Pink Pearl Cybereyes(tm) come in
> flourescent pink.), but most cybereyes are all gonna look the same
> unless you can take them out and look at the circuitry or something.
<more snippage>

Just a thought on cybereyes: I have no trouble seeing the
manufacturer's name, serial number and model number type information
being etched around the outer edge of the eye's iris. Sort of like how
CD's have information printed around the rim, just inside the inner
perimeter of the data area. It should be possible to get them without
*some* of that information, though. The more 'generic' they get, the
less meaningful (and visible) that information is likely to be. IMO,
YMMV, etc, etc.

--
John Pederson

Why aren't I working?
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 16:40:01 2001
Steven Ratkovich wrote:
> >>> Zixx <zixx@****.org> 07/05/01 01:57PM >>>
>
> (Hey Bull, how's life :))
> <<<<
> Eh, ok... Could be worse, though I finally got one of those Lives
> that everyone said I should get, and I've found it's highly
> over-rated. :]

Sounds intersting :)

> I'll be better when YotC FINALLY gets published... I'll FINALLY be
> acle to say I'm actually a Writer :] Hell, I may even eventually
> get paid for it :]

Now that sound scary! You mean like real money? Urgh.

> Ok, first off, i want to preface this by saying I agree with you
> 100%. I meant what I said about the Rigger 3 bit, even if it's as
> simple as a little line under the Honda Viking mentioning "Other
> similar bikes Include the Harley RoadHawg and the Kawasaki
> RiceChugger" (At work, so making up names, obviously :))

Nice to hear that (the part about agreeing that is :))

> Ok, now I play Devil's Advocate, because I know both "Sides". The
> "Alternate names" is purly flavor, and adds only a little to the
> word count, so It's possibly doable in future products. Granted,
> even 10 words to 300 entries means that you're losing 3000 words,
> which can be an entire small section of other material that could
> be in the book. But, it's doable.

I don't know, I'd say some items should only be available from one
manufacurer, while other have some to chose from. So I'd say that you
can print enough alternate names on two pages, to satisfy everyone...

> However, I'd be willing to bet you'll never see anything more
> intricate than that, because it would be way too bulky. As it is
> people complain about how much the core books cost and how many
> there are... It would be really nice to have a definate:
> Cybereyes, 1000 Nuyen for "regular eyes". 1500 for Zeiss IKON high
> fashion. 900 for Fuchi Re-Issues. This is more realistic, but
> what would happen is that A) that's 10 extra words, and only
> covers *2* brand names. See above for more on that, and B) a
> couple people would bother with Zeiss, and everyone else would take
> Fuchi because they're cheaper han "regular" eyes. Not including a
> "Cheaper" would keep things even, unless of course there was an
> actual "Failure" chance or rule for the Cheapo whatever (Besides
> lame Shadowtalk saying that the item in question falls apart. Good
> flavor, bad for game mechanics".

Hmm....we are talking about roleplaying, not rollplaying. Spare me
with broken rules about, say, jumping and give the game some flavour.
I don't mean to cause any holy wars here, but it's my feeling that SR
has gotten its soul edited out. I mean shadowtalk gave you something
to rate the quality of items and in my game, people would look quite
disgusted if I tried to sell them a Sandler TMP. When you read a
Chromebook (e.g) you're pretty much absorbed into that world. They
tell you things that give you a clear picture of the setting. SR
doesn't do this anymore. I get a list of items that look like a list
of items in an RPG-book, not like a list of items in some catalogue
or on some future BBS.


> Nope. But showing off in a bar, he'll wait until *everyone* has
> seen it. "LetterOpener"...nice.
> <<<<<
>
> Thanks, I thought it was cute myself. :]

:)

Zixx
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 18:30:00 2001
>There was this very neat picture in FOF, where you (IIRC) could read
>the brandname inside some girl's eye. Besides, if there's
>brandawareness, people will make it clear what they have. Maybe the
>little "Zeiss IKON" you can read when you look her deep in the
>eyes....

I dunno know about you, but if I'm paying to have something grafted into my
body, it is NOT going to have some cheesy brand logo on it, unless they give
me BIG sponsorship bucks! Paying good cash for that kinda drek is for
brainwashed wageslaves with (TM) for brains. Most runners, at least, would
care much more about how well thier cyber worked than who was impressed by
its provenance.

-Mongoose
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 18:45:01 2001
>From: "S O'Neill" <callahan421@*******.com>

>
>One answer is to simply address the 'problem' with roleplaying. Yeah, the
>book says that it's an Ares Predator. Do what I do and >rename it, talk
>about it as something else, so long as you know what >stats to use when it
>comes time to roll the dice. Simple, elegant, >easy.
>

This sounds really cool, but the single biggest problem I have is thinking
up names. A lot of people seem to be able to just come up with them, and I
wish I could. Nothing breaks the mood faster, than when I have to come up
with a name on the spot and it'll be, like, Bob, or Sarah, or something.

Jane
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Thu Jul 5 20:55:01 2001
> I dunno know about you, but if I'm paying to have something grafted into
> my
> body, it is NOT going to have some cheesy brand logo on it, unless they
> give
> me BIG sponsorship bucks! Paying good cash for that kinda drek is for
> brainwashed wageslaves with (TM) for brains. Most runners, at least,
> would
> care much more about how well thier cyber worked than who was impressed
> by its provenance.

And wouldn't that sort of thing be a great identifier that would stick in
people's minds, too? "Yeah, officer, before he hit me I noticed his Optica
Polar-Eyes(TM) cybereyes, and the girl's dermal sheathing kept flashing the
Shiawase logo." You can take off yer Nikes, but you can't take out yer
eyebulbs :)

I'm with Mongoose: runners shouldn't want logos. And hey, aren't they
all counter-corp anyway? Only The Gingerbread Man would go in for
advertising like that...

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Valeu John EMFA)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 03:05:00 2001
> And wouldn't that sort of thing be a great identifier that would stick in
>people's minds, too? "Yeah, officer, before he hit me I noticed his Optica
>Polar-Eyes(TM) cybereyes, and the girl's dermal sheathing kept flashing the
>Shiawase logo." You can take off yer Nikes, but you can't take out yer
>eyebulbs :)

> I'm with Mongoose: runners shouldn't want logos. And hey, aren't they
>all counter-corp anyway? Only The Gingerbread Man would go in for
>advertising like that...

So would you if you had your own trid show. Besides, he does.

What about Nightfire from FOF, SSC and Shadowtech? Was he just a company
exec, or a bought runner? Personally, I can relate this to footwear. I'm a
big guy, so it's hard to find shoes that fit. I buy what works and what's
comfortable, not because it's endorsed by Shaq or somebody. (Heck I don't
really even care for basketball).

But then again, say one of your friends gets a wizard new piece of wear.
With out a proper brand name, how are you going to make sure you get the
right stuff and not some cheap knock off?

Ok, now to settle this (At least on the gun level). Read the intro to
Cannon Companion. Mike talks about "Yeah, there's the Renraku version of
the Predator, with both wooden and plastic grips. Matte Black and Chrome
finish. Case-less, Cased." (I'm paraphrasing, I know. Out to sea,
remember?:) No books.) CC was a rule book, plain and simple.

Now, if certain brands are so popular, you could always give the decker a
case of pyscotropic black IC. You know the one. The one that gives you a
sever case of brand loyalty.
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 05:30:12 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Fri, 06 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> This sounds really cool, but the single biggest problem I have is thinking
> up names. A lot of people seem to be able to just come up with them, and I
> wish I could. Nothing breaks the mood faster, than when I have to come up
> with a name on the spot and it'll be, like, Bob, or Sarah, or something.

Do you have a computer around when you game? If so, I'll make a quick plug
for a program I wrote years ago because I have exactly the same problem:
GameName, available from http://plastic.dumpshock.com/software/software.html

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Martin Steffens)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 06:10:00 2001
> From: BD

> And wouldn't that sort of thing be a great identifier that
> would stick in people's minds, too? "Yeah, officer, before
> he hit me I noticed his Optica Polar-Eyes(TM) cybereyes,
> and the girl's dermal sheathing kept flashing the Shiawase
> logo." You can take off yer Nikes, but you can't take out yer
> eyebulbs :)

I don't think the idea behind brand names that people voice is that
Fuchi cyber eyes beam out a twelve by twelve projection of the Fuchi
logo every two hours or so :).

More that when a runner decides to get some chrome you can liven up the
whole affair by having his friends give feedback ("dude, go for the
Opticon 2X series, the C-series has bad reviews; dead pixels all over
the place after a few months of use"), or for the cyberdoc to make his
sales pitch ("Ah, yes I know that the CyberTech Alpha wired systems are
cheaper, but the Fuchi 1100 FireWire comes with three years free
maintenance, an excellent training program and has gold plated
connectors. It's up to you of course, but you only have one body and
doesn't it deserve the best?"), or magazines for the CyberGods to drool
over ("Man, I'm off food for a while. They're bringing out an improved
version of the Ares CombatClaw. This one is dikoted and has a two
millisec faster reaction speed! It must be mine!")

And you can have Cyber Junkies that are brand aware and can tell what
type of wires you use from the way you move ("See that smoothness and
high curve of the arm movements? Has to be an Aztec 4000.") or from the
way the light reflects of your eyes (or if you have non-standard eyes by
the design and colours).

Martin
- "My bonelacing is designed by Porsche!"
"How can you tell?"
"Because I paid for it!" -
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Zixx)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 07:35:00 2001
Sebastian Wiers wrote:
> >There was this very neat picture in FOF, where you (IIRC) could
> > read the brandname inside some girl's eye. Besides, if there's
> > brandawareness, people will make it clear what they have. Maybe
> > the little "Zeiss IKON" you can read when you look her deep in
> > the eyes....
>
> I dunno know about you, but if I'm paying to have something grafted
> into my body, it is NOT going to have some cheesy brand logo on it,
> unless they give me BIG sponsorship bucks! Paying good cash for
> that kinda drek is for brainwashed wageslaves with (TM) for brains.
> Most runners, at least, would care much more about how well thier
> cyber worked than who was impressed by its provenance.

Well, I'm not saying I would do that, I'm saying most people would.
Take a look around, there a people who are proud to have "Calvin
Klein" printed on their underwear.....<insert usual Klein-joke here>

Zixx
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 17:45:01 2001
> Do you have a computer around when you game? If so, I'll make a quick
> plug
> for a program I wrote years ago because I have exactly the same problem:
> GameName, available from
> http://plastic.dumpshock.com/software/software.html

> Gurth@******.nl

And it's not like you can't make up a list of names before the game and
draw from it if you have to.

BTW, Gurth, I can't seem to get anywhere on that page; it just keeps
flashing up the same Index page but with a different address up top... I
certainly can't download anything. Is it my browser, you think?

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Fri Jul 6 18:30:01 2001
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>Do you have a computer around when you game? If so, I'll make a quick plug
>for a program I wrote years ago because I have exactly the same problem:
>GameName, available from
>http://plastic.dumpshock.com/software/software.html
>

It says 'File not Found'

Jane
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 06:15:01 2001
BD writes:

> Mongoose writes:
> > I dunno know about you, but if I'm paying to have something grafted into
> > my body, it is NOT going to have some cheesy brand logo on it, unless
> > they give me BIG sponsorship bucks! Paying good cash for that kinda
> > drek is for brainwashed wageslaves with (TM) for brains. Most runners,
> > at least, would care much more about how well thier cyber worked than
> > who was impressed by its provenance.
>
> And wouldn't that sort of thing be a great identifier that would stick in
> people's minds, too? "Yeah, officer, before he hit me I noticed his Optica
> Polar-Eyes(TM) cybereyes, and the girl's dermal sheathing kept flashing the
> Shiawase logo." You can take off yer Nikes, but you can't take out yer
> eyebulbs :)
>
> I'm with Mongoose: runners shouldn't want logos. And hey, aren't they
> all counter-corp anyway? Only The Gingerbread Man would go in for
> advertising like that...

I can see that _some_ runners would dislike and avoid branded items, but
OTOH, I can just as easily see how other runners would _like_ to have
branded items.

If your compatriots see you sporting the distinctive protruding bare metal
titanium knuckle spurs that come with the new MetalMan (TM) Universal
Omnitech alpha grade bone lacing, then they know that you're (a) modern, (b)
well equipped, (c) wealthy, (d) therefore successful, and (e) therefore an
appropriate choice for a team mate. OTOH, the guy next to you who bought the
Wuxing Double Ribbed Imaging Interference MAD Defeating titanium bone
lacing, which supposedly has a design capable of confusing metal detectors,
might be just as good a runner. But do you know that? OTOH, you'd be wise to
check things out...

For many runners, individual expression and freedom of choice are important.
They want to be able to install the latest, 2 nanosecond faster Sculpted
BodyWare Lightning Series IV Reaction Enhancers, rather than the more
commonly available Shiawase Zolter Gen Four Speed Boosters. In game terms
this has _no_ effect whatsoever, but in the SR world, a 2 nanosecond
advantage could be seen as a real difference. Just like today audiophiles
pay twice the price for gold leads and connectors for their KenWood super
stereo that costs more than my car, while most people are happy with their
average 1/10th of the cost Clarion system. And who's going to have the 3x1
foot sticker on the back of their car, hmm?

In the shadowrunning world, ego, image, flash, and bang are often just as
important as performance and actual capabilities - it's no good being a top
runner if nobody knows it and therefore nobody will hire you. I feel that
equipment can play a role in this image building.

Also, when new technology comes out, especially from larger companies, they
usually have a large advertising campaign. Remember when Intel brought out
the PII? Who in the world _didn't_ know how "good" this new super fast
processor was? (And, admittedly, it was actually pretty quick for it's time,
at least for a conventional PC, excluding alphas and such.) Now, true,
technically competent people might realise that a Sun Ultra Sparc quad
processor system might whoop the pants off this "great new super fast PII",
but pretty much everyone else doesn't. Is your Johnson going to be more
impressed if you sport the Indestructible Series cybertorso that's recently
had an extensive advertising campagin by Ares involving steamrollers rolling
over people who've got them, or the slightly cheaper, but probably just as
good Renraku SynthSkin Exoskeleton Vital Organ Protection System? It's not
like he knows cyber - marketing and media impressions will be all he has to
go on.

And, lastly, often if you're looking for the latest, best, or otherwise top
grade stuff, then only a couple of manufacturers make it. And they _always_
put their logos on it (after all, they're proud of their quality product,
and it's free advertising to boot). If the only way to get Move-by-Wire 4 is
to buy the Yamatetsu Supernatural Series Unreal Glide Neural Feedback and
Control Register (otherwise you'd have to settle for the obviously inferior
Move-by-Wire 3 Metahuman Motion Accelerator made by Mitsuhama), then you're
not going to care if they slap a glowing Yamatetsu logo on the back of your
neck at the control module firmware update port. It's pretty unusual to buy
an unbadged porche.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 20
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 06:25:01 2001
Gurth writes:

> Do you have a computer around when you game? If so, I'll make a quick plug
> for a program I wrote years ago because I have exactly the same problem:
> GameName, available from http://plastic.dumpshock.com/software/software.html

I've also got an excel spreadsheet made by Matthew Bond that contains every
name in the 1990 US Census, and a macro that randomly combines male and
female first and then last names in batches of 10 each. I make it generate
30 odd random names, and then put these into a table. It fits on about 1
page. I print it off, and keep it in my SR GM folder. When I need a name all
of a sudden, I just pick the next one on the list, cross it off to remind me
not to use it again, and give the NPC the name. If it runs low, I get the
spreadsheet to make me some more and print them off.

Something else I was thinking the other day might be a handy resource is the
random car chase table, which I think was in the Teenage Mutant Ninja
Turtles RPG. Does anyone have a copy of this, or a similar item? It had a
couple of tables for determining events in car chases. So the PCs are
chasing a white ford armericar that they've spotted tailing them for the
last half a day. The white americar streaks out onto the freeway with the
runner's van in hot pursuit. Rolling on the table, I find that the freeway
has a two truck accident half a klick up the road, and rolling again, truck
1 was carrying 1.5m diameter concrete drainage pipes, and truck 2 was
carrying 25 tons of refridgerated soy cakes on their way to the Fake Meat
(TM) processing plant.

These sort of random generator tables are a very handy thing to print off
and take along to games. They can save much GM brain strain :-). Does anyone
have any others?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.12
GE d- s++:-- a25 C++ US++>+++ P+ L+>++ E- W+ N++ o@ K- w+(--) O-@ M--
V- PS+ PE- Y+ PGP-@>++ t+ 5 X+>+++ R++ !tv(--) b+ DI+++@ D G+
e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 21
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 07:55:01 2001
According to BD, on Fri, 06 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> And it's not like you can't make up a list of names before the game and
> draw from it if you have to.

That, too. But if you have trouble coming up with names yourself, a list
that consists of a great many variations on "Bob" and "Sarah" isn't
going
to be much help :)

> BTW, Gurth, I can't seem to get anywhere on that page; it just keeps
> flashing up the same Index page but with a different address up top... I
> certainly can't download anything. Is it my browser, you think?

I don't know, because I don't know what browser you're using :)

Anyway, it should give you a page with buttons "GameName" and "Random
Thoughts" on the left-hand side of the screen, below the PW logo. Clicking
on the GameName button should bring you to a new page where you can pick
the version you want.

If you want to go directly to the GameName page, it's at
http://plastic.dumpshock.com/software/gamename/index.html, but be warned
that the GameName 2.0 and Language buttons open pages that have gotten there
by accident -- the files these are supposed to link to haven't been
finished yet, and the pages are only there because I forgot about them when
uploading a new version :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 22
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 07:55:05 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Sat, 07 Jul 2001 the word on the street was...

> It says 'File not Found'

Damn... if BD isn't the only one having problems with it then I guess I
must have forgotten to upload the files :) Will do so when I send my
outgoing mail (IOW, by the time you read this, it should be fixed :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 23
From: shadowrn@*********.com (BD)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 14:35:01 2001
>> And it's not like you can't make up a list of names before the game
>> and draw from it if you have to.

> That, too. But if you have trouble coming up with names yourself, a list
> that consists of a great many variations on "Bob" and "Sarah"
isn't going
> to be much help :)
> Gurth

You think? I get a lot of mileage out of those names: Robert, Robbie,
Rob, Bob, Bobby, Bert, Sara, Sarah, Sarra, Sarrah, and Sera. Then there's
Michael and Elizabeth... :P

What I meant, you ding-dong, is that preparing a list of names before the
game gives you time to look in the phone book or go online or just THINK
about it, which is an advantage over game time where you are
Johnny-On-The-Spot. Or Janey-On-The-Spot :)

====-Boondocker

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Message no. 24
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Jane van Roekel)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sat Jul 7 18:30:01 2001
>From: Gurth <Gurth@******.nl>

>Damn... if BD isn't the only one having problems with it then I guess I
>must have forgotten to upload the files :) Will do so when I send my
>outgoing mail (IOW, by the time you read this, it should be fixed :)
>
>
Working fine now, thanks.

Jane
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Message no. 25
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sun Jul 8 06:35:01 2001
According to Jane van Roekel, on Sun, 08 Jul 2001 the word on the street
was...

> Working fine now, thanks.

You don't want to know how long it took me to actually make it work... :/
But anyway, I hope it comes in useful, and I really should finish v2.0
sometime soon...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
A bad day fishing is still better than a good day dying.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 26
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nephyte)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Sun Jul 8 15:55:01 2001
Umm yeah, I've been lurking like you wouldn't believe ....

On most topics you guys seem to cover just about everything... however I
think it's gotten a little silly on this topic.

People in general keep slamming brand names, saying why would a runner want
them... etc etc etc...

Well to give you a real life example that I think works well in ShadowRun as
well. I am an avid Import person. Or at least I have been for the last 10
months since I bought my Acura Integra. Since then, me and my friends have
spent time looking up high grade performance modifications for everything
from pure power to increased handling. Though I haven't made a final
decision about wether I want to upgrade my car for autocross or pure speed.
If I had enough money, I'd do up to cars, one for each, as I really enjoy
both.

However, here is the thing about high grade performance parts. In general,
meaning most of the time with a few rare exceptions, it is the brand names
that you want. Why would you want to get some knock off performance Turbo
such as Acme Turbo Inc. when Greddy has proved to make excellent turbo's.
They are a large performance company with the money to put back into
research to increase the realiability and durability of there product as
well as having some of the most exceptional on the market. So when I am
looking at Turbo's naturally I am going to want Greddy. It has nothing to do
with the brand name, but rather the fact that I know spending money on a
Greddy Turbo for my car is going to be a better investment in my car then
the Acme Turbo Inc turbo. I can go through a list of various performance
parts here, if people want me to expand on this example. I think however
this one alone should sufficiently prove the point I am trying to make.

What was the point I am trying to make: With high grade electronics, and
performance parts it is often the brand names that are putting out the best
products. This is why they are a brand name. They are recognized as being
superior products that the consumer wishes to buy.

Please don't mistake this. We are not talking about clothing or shoes here.
At least I am not talking about those things. Yeah, in those things Designer
label doesn't mean quality, or give the best production/output for your
money. They make you LOOK good. Not Perform better. I don't really think
LOOKS is what this arguement is about.

Would my street sam rather have Renraku Excalibur Platnium Series 3.11 Wired
Reflexes or Bunkiku Super Series 3 Wired Reflexes ... Well assuming the
Renraku Wired are actually better then the Bunkiku Wired ... yeah, I'd take
the brand name. My character may be anti-corp, but if you are talking about
survival, well his life is more important then stiffing the corp for his
wired....

The same would go with nearly any piece of chrome put into my characters
body. Assuming I have the money, I want to put the best possibe chrome
inside his/her flesh. If that means I gotta go Brand Name cause the brand
names have more money to back there product through R&D, well then brand
name here I come.


Cuddly Lap Angel Extrodinaire
- Nephyte -
Message no. 27
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Mon Jul 9 17:45:03 2001
>People in general keep slamming brand names, saying why would a runner want
>them... etc etc etc...

I didn't say a runner would not ever want them, just that they would care
more about what works well than what brand an item was.
What I think they would not care about is showing others about what brands
they have installed in thier body by displaying the logos on thier bodies.
Some might boast a lot, but IMO the smart ones would keep it secret what (or
who's) mods they got.
Certainly for any ganger, showing some flash implants would be a status
boost, but I don't see that most runners would shop with the same philosophy
in mind.

<snip analogy with performance car parts>

While tricked out cars are sweet, I'd rather have a fast car with a nice
paint job, or even a sleepr, to a car with a
bunch of after market product logos slapped on the bodywork.

>The same would go with nearly any piece of chrome put into my characters
>body. Assuming I have the money, I want to put the best possibe chrome
>inside his/her flesh. If that means I gotta go Brand Name cause the brand
>names have more money to back there product through R&D, well then brand
>name here I come.

Exactly. With any product, do the research on what works best (for you) and
buy that. If it happens to be a heavily advertised product from a big name
brand, so be it. If not, who cares, buy it anyhow.

Mongoose
Message no. 28
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Nephyte)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Mon Jul 9 18:40:01 2001
> I didn't say a runner would not ever want them, just that they would care
> more about what works well than what brand an item was.
> What I think they would not care about is showing others about what brands
> they have installed in thier body by displaying the logos on thier bodies.
> Some might boast a lot, but IMO the smart ones would keep it secret what
(or
> who's) mods they got.
> Certainly for any ganger, showing some flash implants would be a status
> boost, but I don't see that most runners would shop with the same
philosophy
> in mind.

Ummm - I never said anything *anywhere* in my post about splashing logo's
all over your body. Quite frankly I've never even seen anywhere in all of
shadowrun where its even suggested that the corp's start trying to brand you
as you get there ware inside your body.

> <snip analogy with performance car parts>
>
> While tricked out cars are sweet, I'd rather have a fast car with a nice
> paint job, or even a sleepr, to a car with a
> bunch of after market product logos slapped on the bodywork.

I had to go back and read my last post, cause I was sure I must have said
something that I didn't think I did in it. However, after reading it again,
I know for a fact I never mentioned splashing my cars with funny stickers of
performance parts companies. However I am really happy for you that you like
sleepers. If you wanna talk about that, I am sure we can start exchanging
emails pertaining to supping up cars.

Just to reiterate, in case you mistakenly are taking something from my posts
that I never said ... I was NEVER talking about splahing around foolish
logo's but the point I was trying to make is this. I can print it out again
in capitals if you would like.

*** The reason *most* brand name electronics/perfomance companies are a
brand name is because of the higher quality, or superb quality of there
products with respect to the competitors in there given fields.***

No - this doesn't always hold true. Sony isn't really known for having super
ior products, but rather for mass producing for easier more affordable
prices quality electronics.

Please do not start getting confused with designer brand names. In *NO* way
shape or form is this post meant to pertain to brand names that are supposed
to be visually appealing. This post is pertaining to the idea that in
general, most brand name electronics/performance part companies are brand
names for the quality of there products.

And if you are a smart runner who wants to stay alive... You'll take the
high end brand name that is known to be a great piece of chrome, rather then
settle for the half price bargain chrome ... why .. cause it's your life
that depends on the chrome.
Message no. 29
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Robert Fanning)
Subject: Brand Names
Date: Wed Jul 11 09:20:01 2001
An evil thought comes to mind about Brand Names, such as Psychotropic IC and
ASIST Reprogrammers.......

Having the character spend all their money on a competitor's products and
advertising gunk (particularly T-shirts, keyrings, etc), then have them run
around doing a shadowrun fully advertising their competitor - then running
down the street shooting up cops, or nuns and orphans, etc.

On second thoughts, having them be converted into "model citizens" is
probably a worse fate........

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Brand Names, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.