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Message no. 1
From: Steven A. Tinner bluewizard@*****.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:29:25 -0500
> On a related note, what the heck does "breeder" mean, in 2050s parlance?
I know it refers to >humans, but I'm not sure if it means anything special.
Tusker, that's pretty obvious. Dandelion-eater, >that's easy enough to
grasp. But breeder...there must be something blatantly, glaringly
>obvious that I'm missing. Enlighten me, please.

Well the really OBVIOUS connection is as follows.

Breeder=One who breeds
Breed=Sex
Sex=F*ck
Breeder=F*cker

So I usually read all those "Stupid Breeder" comments as "Stupid
F*cker"

However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it might
also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that has children
goblines/UGE into another BREED.
Kind of saying that humans are just breeders for the other races, reversing
the racism normally put on Trolls, elves, etc.

That's my take on it.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://listen.to/Tinner
"9 points for word usage, and a cookie for using the term "Gygaxian
Whore"."
Message no. 2
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:09:40 -0700
While I am not going to dispute Tinner's take on this one..I would
say that Breeder is also a referance to the frequency with which
humans are able to reproduce as compaired to the other races..I think
that somewhere there was a chart or discription..but I have no Idea
where..Take that back..I just checked..it is in the race discriptions
in SRI..However..this would place the origin of the word with the
Elves..and it's referance to all other races..with a special
conotation for Orks..litters up to 8 and the shotest gestation period
of all the races..
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 3
From: David Buehrer dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 11:25:11 -0700 (MST)
"Breeder" is used in current US slang to refer to women that are viewed by
a small subsection of the male population as having a high child bearing
potential, either proven or desired.

"Yup, I'm gonna get me a breeder and raise me a pack of young uns to work
the farm."

"Whoa! Cletus, check out the hooters on that breeder!"

"Hey darlin. Wanna breed?"

"Yep, your missus is a real breeder. You got what, 13.. 14 kids?"

-David B.
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 4
From: Shaun E. Gilroy shaung@**********.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:55:45 -0500
At 11:09 AM 2/17/99 -0700, you wrote:
>While I am not going to dispute Tinner's take on this one..I would
>say that Breeder is also a referance to the frequency with which
>humans are able to reproduce as compaired to the other races..I think
>that somewhere there was a chart or discription..but I have no Idea
>where..Take that back..I just checked..it is in the race discriptions
>in SRI..However..this would place the origin of the word with the
>Elves..and it's referance to all other races..with a special
>conotation for Orks..litters up to 8 and the shotest gestation period
>of all the races..

This is all fine and dandy, but how is that an insult? The context, IIRC,
is that its an insult.

If I was in a heated exchange of belittling terms with someone and they
called me a "Non egg-laying mammal!", I think I would laugh at them rather
than grind my teeth and spit.

What aspect of being called "Breeder" makes it something that one does not
want to be called one? I really don't think I'd really care if metahumans
took up the habit of calling me (as a not metahuman), "breeder". I'd just
ignore it and go on with my life.

>--------------------------------GRANITE
> "Rock Steady"


Shaun Gilroy [shaung@**********.net]
Online Technologies Corp.
Message no. 5
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 12:11:45 -0700
> This is all fine and dandy, but how is that an insult? The context, IIRC,
> is that its an insult.

A good question..But the same can be said of the term Dandylion
eater..It is only an insult if it is meant that way..Personally I
like dandylion greens sauteed in butter..but I don't particularly
like elves..

> What aspect of being called "Breeder" makes it something that one does not
> want to be called one?

perhaps it is the dehumanizing quality of the term that makes it
negative..Afterall a rat or cockroack could easily be classified as a
breeder..living to make more of themselves..but not being worth much
more than that..

>I really don't think I'd really care if metahumans
> took up the habit of calling me (as a not metahuman), "breeder". I'd just
> ignore it and go on with my life.

That is because you ar more enlightened that many folks..I am the
same way..words don't hurt from strangers..But I have seen the
reaction over and over of our inmates when one calls the other a
name..snitch or rat or chester..Someone is about to get hurt..
small minds...
--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 6
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:32:11 -0500 (EST)
On Wed, 17 Feb 1999, Shaun E. Gilroy wrote:

> If I was in a heated exchange of belittling terms with someone and they
> called me a "Non egg-laying mammal!", I think I would laugh at them rather
> than grind my teeth and spit.
> What aspect of being called "Breeder" makes it something that one does not
> want to be called one? I really don't think I'd really care if metahumans
> took up the habit of calling me (as a not metahuman), "breeder". I'd just
> ignore it and go on with my life.

Well, it's often not so simple. Look at the modern term "nigger."
It's a derogatory slang term derived from "negro" which literally means
"black" in Spanish. By itself, it has no meaning, and calling someone of
African descent "black" is more or less a statement of fact.
But it's still insulting. It has its own connotations that extend
far beyond the original meaning of the word. In many cases, it's not so
much *what* you say as *how* you say it. Anything can be an insult
depending on how much scorn you put into it. Perhps "breeder" is used in
much the same way.

Marc
Message no. 7
From: hivemind hivemind@********.rr.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 13:42:52 -0600
IIRC orks & trolls calling humans breeder dates back to the early days of
the SR timeline. Remember, pretty much the entire first generation of orks
& trolls worldwide goblinized, i.e. they were born human and changed at or
around puberty. It would have been a while before any orks or trolls were
born to other than human parents. The experience with elves & dwarves would
have been similar. Thus, in the early days of the Sixth World, all metas
were bred from humans. Thus humans are breeders, parents of the other meta
races.

hivemind
Message no. 8
From: Mike and Jill Johnson shadowrn@*******.micron.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 15:12:15 -0700
>This is all fine and dandy, but how is that an insult? The context, IIRC,
>is that its an insult.
>
>If I was in a heated exchange of belittling terms with someone and they
>called me a "Non egg-laying mammal!", I think I would laugh at them rather
>than grind my teeth and spit.
>
>What aspect of being called "Breeder" makes it something that one does not
>want to be called one? I really don't think I'd really care if metahumans
>took up the habit of calling me (as a not metahuman), "breeder". I'd just
>ignore it and go on with my life.
>

Just jumping in here, being a breeder implies being a brood mare, cattle
or little bunnies. Only good for reproducing and keeping the race
populating the planet. The thing about insults is, your not offended by
them, they don't work. Kinda like "your mamma wears combat boots", some
take it compliments. Now days, most of us would smile and say, "yeah, Mom
served her term in the military". My father on the other hand, would have
kicked your hoop for impling his mother wasn't feminine.


Jill
Message no. 9
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:38:45 -0600
From: Steven A. Tinner
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:29 AM

>However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it
>might also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that
>has children goblines/UGE into another BREED.

Okay, this brings up a question that's surfaced several times in the local
group: We know that people still occasionally, even frequently, goblinize
into orks and trolls. Are there still transformations from normal to elves
and dwarves? Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
with? The historical text in the main SR3 rulebook (and its predecessors)
seem to indicate that there were not any such transformations, but the
population figures tend to indicate that there had to be. This is
consistent with some of the old back-cover text about elves and trolls
assuming their true forms.

I'm just curious how the rest of you view this.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 10
From: Schizi@***.com Schizi@***.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 21:42:01 EST
In a message dated 2/17/99 9:26:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,
bluewizard@*****.com writes:

>
> However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it might
> also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that has children
> goblines/UGE into another BREED.
> Kind of saying that humans are just breeders for the other races, reversing
> the racism normally put on Trolls, elves, etc.
>
This is closer to my thought. It goes back to the dwarf's qoute (paraphrase
from memory) "Humans are like dinosaurs, soon they'll be extinct"
I think it refers to humans giving birth to Metahumanity which shall replace
them or some such
Message no. 11
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 22:06:15 EST
In a message dated 2/17/1999 8:43:09 PM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.net
writes:

>
> Okay, this brings up a question that's surfaced several times in the local
> group: We know that people still occasionally, even frequently, goblinize
> into orks and trolls. Are there still transformations from normal to elves
> and dwarves? Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
> with? The historical text in the main SR3 rulebook (and its predecessors)
> seem to indicate that there were not any such transformations, but the
> population figures tend to indicate that there had to be. This is
> consistent with some of the old back-cover text about elves and trolls
> assuming their true forms.
>
> I'm just curious how the rest of you view this.

Please then, reconsider the concept of "transformation" with regards to
Dwarves/Elves vs. Orks/Trolls. D/E "express" theirselves at birth. O/T can
"express" at birth or "goblinize" later in life.

-K
Message no. 12
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:23:29 -0700
>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
> with?

Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 13
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 00:40:27 -0600
From: GRANITE
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 12:23 AM

>>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
>> with?
>
>Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
>This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..

Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help me or
the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as stated.

As I said (or at least implied) before: There's *no* way that there are as
many elves and dwarves in the world as there are without *some* of them
transforming as the mana threshold crested in the 2011-2017 timeframe.
There aren't *that* many IEs running about, nor can you convince me that
there were that many spike babies. There are too many old elves running
around for all (or any, for that matter) of them to have been born since
2011.

So I have to ask, in conjunction with the severly truncated question above:
What's the official FASA line on this? Mike M.? Steve K.?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 14
From: GRANITE granite@**.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:58:34 -0700
> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help me or
> the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as stated.

Do your own research..look in SR2 It came to pass where it is talking
about how the races came to be..As for when I referred to the races
existing prior to the Awakening..I meant Centuries ever Thousands of
years prior..Perhaps some were spike babies..For that matter I
actually have a cousin that has pointy ears..Not Spock pointy..but
noticeably so..But that is RL..ANd not exactly the point..

> As I said (or at least implied) before: There's *no* way that there are as
> many elves and dwarves in the world as there are without *some* of them
> transforming as the mana threshold crested

Problem is you will not be able to find -any- documentation to float
that argument..I've tried..Or do you want me to list everywhere I
didn't find it..If you find proof of folks spontaneously changing
into elves let me know where..I would like to be able to read it for
myself..

> There aren't *that* many IEs running about, nor can you convince me that
> there were that many spike babies.

Then why did you ask the question in the first place if you are not
open to the possibility that your position may not be the correct
one..And as far as I know there is not an exact count of IEs..so
who's to know how many there are..

>There are too many old elves running
> around for all (or any, for that matter) of them to have been born since
> 2011.

IN the beginning I agreed..but without being able to prove it..ya just
have to make it up for yourself..And chalk it up to one of those
little details that got overlooked when they were creating the SR
universe..

--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
==============================================Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The
Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
==============================================Understanding is a three edged sword. - Kosh
What is best in life?
To Crush Your Enemies,
See Them Driven Before You,
And To Hear The Lamentation Of Their Women. -Conan
I Am The LAW! -JD
Jamais Arriere
Message no. 15
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 17:11:47 +1000
> >>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
> >> with?
> >
> >Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
> >This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..
>
> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help me or
> the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as stated.

Nope... there were a few spike babies, but elves and dwarves are born, not
goblinised.

Your figures are out because elves and dwarves started being born just after
the turn of the century. 10 years later, UGE started.

The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s in SR time.

You can find this in the "How it came to pass" section of SR2... should
still be in SR3.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 16
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon@*******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 23:11:41 PST
>From: GRANITE
>Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 12:23 AM
>
>>>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
>>> with?
>>
>>Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
>>This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..
>
>Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help me
or
>the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as
stated.
>
>As I said (or at least implied) before: There's *no* way that there
are as
>many elves and dwarves in the world as there are without *some* of them
>transforming as the mana threshold crested in the 2011-2017 timeframe.
>There aren't *that* many IEs running about, nor can you convince me
that
>there were that many spike babies. There are too many old elves
running
>around for all (or any, for that matter) of them to have been born
since
>2011.
>
>So I have to ask, in conjunction with the severly truncated question
above:
>What's the official FASA line on this? Mike M.? Steve K.?
>
>--
>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Okay, have we heard of UGE before? Unidentified Genetic Expression I
believe the term is.

Starting in 2011, elves and dwarves started being BORN as elves as
dwarves. Come to think of it, though, I've never heard of any elves or
dwarves 'goblinising' - at least, not that I can think of off the top of
my head.

AFAIK, any elves or dwarves born before 2011 were spike babies, who were
ALWAYS elves and dwarves.

Of course, I SUSPECT Patrick is right and that some of them must have
'changed' from being normal humans.

Then again, if you get into the whole IE conspiracy thing, it's possible
that there WERE an extremely large amount of spike babies born leading
up to the Awakening and that the IEs and other spike babies were doing
their best to keep their younger kin concealed until the Awakening
happened and there was no longer any point to it.

I just finished reading "Never Trust an Elf" today and in there it
mentioned that Sean Laverty (who is probably an IE, but masquerades as
just a spike baby in the book) ran a place called the Xavier Foundation
for 'gifted children' or 'special children' or something like that
(who's been reading too many X-men comics, hmmm?). Anyway, the point is,
if Laverty was running a place which, in all probability, scooped up
spike babies wherever it found them and hid them away from a suspicious
world, why not the other IEs?

So...that's my...hmmm...approximately US 1.2 cents worth on the matter.
My advice, Patrick - read the history section in SRII or SR3. If it says
that elves and dwarves 'expressed' there, then you have your answer. If
it doesn't...well, it could just be a cover-up. :)

*Doc' concentrates really hard, trying to grow...Vulcan ears...yeah,
that's right...Vulcan ears...*

Doc'

.sig Sauer

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:09:33 +0100
According to Patrick Goodman, at 19:38 on 17 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> Okay, this brings up a question that's surfaced several times in the local
> group: We know that people still occasionally, even frequently, goblinize
> into orks and trolls.

Actually, they don't. This has become a very rare occurrance after the
first one or two generations.

> Are there still transformations from normal to elves and dwarves? Were
> there transformation into elves and dwarves to start with?

These don't happen, plain and simple. The first dwarfs and elves were born
to humans in 2011, but nobody "transformed" into an elf or a dwarf in the
way some did into orks and trolls, ten years later. Like above, a very
small number of humans still get dwarf or elf children in the 2050s, but
it's exceedingly uncommon AFAIK.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: A Halliwell u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 11:20:28 +0000 (GMT)
And verily, did Patrick Goodman hastily scribble thusly...
|
|From: Steven A. Tinner
|Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 1999 11:29 AM
|
|>However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it
|>might also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that
|>has children goblines/UGE into another BREED.
|
|Okay, this brings up a question that's surfaced several times in the local
|group: We know that people still occasionally, even frequently, goblinize
|into orks and trolls. Are there still transformations from normal to elves
|and dwarves?

Still? There never have been. Dwarves and Elves were *all* born that way.

Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
|with?

Nope.

The historical text in the main SR3 rulebook (and its predecessors)
|seem to indicate that there were not any such transformations, but the
|population figures tend to indicate that there had to be.

Why? Humans gave birth to elves and dwarves.


--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 19
From: Stuart M. Willis hbiki@****.geocities.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:06:51 +1100
>So I usually read all those "Stupid Breeder" comments as "Stupid
F*cker"
>
>However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it might
>also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that has children
>goblines/UGE into another BREED.

Canonical Reference to Breeders, from Seattle Sourcebook (the original), p.
156:

"The typical street gang has at least 20 members, each classifed into one
of four categories: Warriors, Pounders, Breeders, and Thieves. Each group
plays its specific role in the overall functino of the gan. A gang usually
does not make a distinction between men and women, preferring simply to use
their strongest members as Warriors and Pounders, the most agile as
Thieves, and the prettiest as their Breeders."

Make of it what you will [and it shall be the whole of the Law :-)].

I dont' think its an exhaustive definition, but I hope it helps.

care,
s.

---------------------------------------------------------
to err is human. to forgive is not company policy.

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ICQ: 4340513
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---------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 20
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 06:58:01 -0800 (PST)
> >>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
> >> with?
> >
> >Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
> >This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..
>
> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help
me or
> the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as
stated.
>

*Clears his throat with an ausible 'Ahem.'*

From FASA Shadowrun Rulebook, Third edition (#7001), page 25, Article
title: 2011--The Year Of Chaos. And I quote,
"...Then things got really strange, real fast. All over the world,
"normal" parents started producing apparently mutant children--elves
and dwarfs, the first metahumans. The scientists called this
frightening phenomenon Unexplained Genetic Expression, or UGE. I
guess they figured giving it a clinical-sounding name might calm
people down ("Your kid's not a freak, he's just a UGE baby"), or at
least a distract people from the unsettling fact that the medical
community had no fragging idea what was causing it. Nobody realized
that UGE was the first manifestation of magic in the world; no one
knew then what magic looked like.
[snip paragraph on Ryumyo and Great Ghost Dance, and the rest of the
article.]
[SNIP also Articles: If It's Tuesday, This must be the UCAS
(2012-2018), The Indian War tnd the Great Ghost Dance, The Treaty of
Denver, Welcome to Our World (2018-2029) {though, in that last
article, it mentions more about "[people] dealing with the strangeness
of having a kid who looked like something out of a Tolkien novel..."}]

Article: "Goblinization," page 28
*clears his troat again*
"On April 30, 2021, all over the world, one out of every ten adults
suddenly metamorphosized into hideous humanoid shapes. Soon the
phenomenon started to afflict children; some were born "monsters,"
while others changed soon after puberty. The media, with its unerring
instinct for sensational buzzwords, dubbed the process
"goblinization." Before long, the afflicted were called "orks" and
"trolls" after creatures from fantasy that they resembled.
"The earlier wave of UGE had been frightening enough;
goblinization reduced just about everyone to gibbering terror or
vicious fits of hatefulness tward the victims. Fearing that it might
be contagious, governments all over the world...."
[SNIP the rest of the article, which deals with gov'ts dealing with
(meta) humanity, and the rest of the book, which deals with everything
else, and you should go buy, if you haven't already. *stern look at
the gentleman who asked for this*]

There....is the rulebook Canon enough, and is this versed enough for
you? I don't mind doing this, but the meaty part of my left hand is
now cramped. Please look these things up on your own.

Now then, with that said, that is all that I found on metahumanity in
the history section of the book, and it mentioned nothing about
dwarves of elves transforming at puberty, or anything of the kind.
FASA may have the demographics wrong, but who cares? They've done
enough already.

Your answer to the argument in your group: *SMACK* the person in your
group who said that they goblinized over the head with this
email....and a carp, just for the fun of it :)

That's all for now...gonna go find some Tiger Balm.

FASA Shadowrun articles "2011--The Year of Chaos," and "Goblinization"
are used without expressed permission of the authors, and this author
doesn't much care.

--Fin
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Message no. 21
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:23:22 -0600
From: A Halliwell
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 1999 5:20 AM

>|The historical text in the main SR3 rulebook (and its
>|predecessors) seem to indicate that there were not any such
>|transformations, but the population figures tend to indicate
>|that there had to be.
>
>Why? Humans gave birth to elves and dwarves.

So? They give birth to orks and trolls, too. The thing is, though, that
there aren't enough of them. The numbers don't add up, though, unless a
staggering percentage of humans had dwarf and elf children in 2011, and then
stopped having that staggering percentage not long afterwards.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 22
From: Jordan findlerman@*****.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 07:45:11 -0800 (PST)
> >|The historical text in the main SR3 rulebook (and its
> >|predecessors) seem to indicate that there were not any such
> >|transformations, but the population figures tend to indicate
> >|that there had to be.
> >
> >Why? Humans gave birth to elves and dwarves.
>
> So? They give birth to orks and trolls, too. The thing is, though,
that
> there aren't enough of them. The numbers don't add up, though,
unless a
> staggering percentage of humans had dwarf and elf children in 2011,
and then
> stopped having that staggering percentage not long afterwards.
>

I dunno....I am getting the following from my (old,
unfortunately...anyone have more recent?) Seatle Scourcebook.
Humans: 63%
Elves: 13%
Dwarves: 2%
Orks: 19%
Troll: 2%
Others: 1% (BTW, this mean Dragon? :)

You honestly don't think that this could be achieved?
OK...I know that that pole could only be taken of SINful people, but
let's gratn, for the sake of argument, that there are, roughly, an
equal amount of SINless races.
1. Human's aren't having 100% human babies anymore
2. Elves and Dwarves, besides producing their own, are getting 'help'
from the Humans.
3. Elves and Dwarves got a jump start on the Trogs by about 10 years,
albeit that 10% of humanity turned meta (Trolls and Orks) overnight,
and Elves and Dwarves would, at max, be 10 years old.
4. Orks and Trolls breed like rabbits.
5. There might have been intervention by the IEs (ok...not yet proven
yet, but there is a motive)
And you still think that there 'just isn't enough time?'

Hmmmm....I can't say you're definently wrong, but I *wont* say that I
think that you're right. But Kudos to you for standing behind your
ideas!

Signing off,

--Fin
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Message no. 23
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 19:26:59 -0600
:> On a related note, what the heck does "breeder" mean, in 2050s
parlance?
:I know it refers to >humans, but I'm not sure if it means anything
special.
:Tusker, that's pretty obvious. Dandelion-eater, >that's easy enough to
:grasp. But breeder...there must be something blatantly, glaringly
:>obvious that I'm missing. Enlighten me, please.

:However, since it's almost always applied to humans, I feel that it might
:also refer to the fact that humans are the only metatype that has
children
:goblines/UGE into another BREED.

I think looking for a reason inside SR genetics is a mistake.

<spoiler- inflamatory political rhetoric- used to convey MEANING and
USAGEof term, not as commnetary- go off list if you wish to debate issues
involved, and don't debate them with me, since I have no involvement on
either side- I'm just documenting the lingo for those interested in its
origin>

1

2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

The current common use of "breeder" is a as a term of insult for
couples who have children. (Not a horrible sin, I know).
The insult is most commonly applied to (suburb dwelling, sports-ute
driving, braindead corp shil environment wasting debt building) wedded
couples- I.E. breeders. Its usage and coinage probably orriginated with
urban (pinko commie liberal baby killing satanic witchcraft rollplayer
drug addict HIV bait) homesexuals, who oppose suburban "breeders" in many
political views.

It's a reactive insult, born of frustration, used by people who reject
the "normal Amerikkkan nuclear family". A sort of "only stupid breeders
have 'normal' fammilies" thing.

So, why would orcs and trolls use the term? Well, they ain't accepted
by norms, can't live in the burbs, and nobody wants them to have
children... Counter culture terms of rebelious insult have a way of
getting recycled into odd usage like that.

Mongoose
Message no. 24
From: Dvixen dvixen@****.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 12:56:07 -0800
At 09:23 AM 2/18/99 , Patrick Goodman annoyed me by writing:

>So? They give birth to orks and trolls, too. The thing is, though, that
>there aren't enough of them. The numbers don't add up, though, unless a
>staggering percentage of humans had dwarf and elf children in 2011, and then
>stopped having that staggering percentage not long afterwards.

Okay..... Here's what I figure happened about that time regarding the
births of the metahumans, in both waves (UGE and Goblinizations)

This runs on the hypothesis that the genetic markers for metahumanity have
been present in Humanity for a while. (A long while ;) I forget what the
term for the genetic material that seems to carry no useful information is
so.... Two types of the marker (there are many of these - each with
different purposes) are 'Born with it' and 'will develop'

Kinda like the born with white skin... or will go bald by age 30 type thing. ;)

Different types of markers require a certain amount of magic to become active.

2011 - The magic became high enough to activate the first type of marker of
metahumanity activates - The genetic marker that decides whether a child is
Human, Dwarven, or Elven. Being a born with it marker, it is active before
the child is born.

2021 - The mana rises high enough to trigger the 'will develop' gene in 10%
of the population. Rotten luck for those who got that gene from their
ancestors.

Other gene markers would cause magical ability, you name it... And this
sort of inactive becoming active marker would explain the changes in the
world's flora and fauna. ;)


--
Dvixen - dvixen@********.com - dvixen@****.com
Herkimer's Lair - http://shadowrun.html.com/hlair
"What's your sign?" - "Trespassers will be shot."
Comments/Questions accepted, flames dropped into the abyss.
Message no. 25
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon@*******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:40:14 PST
>> >>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
>> >> with?
>> >
>> >Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
>> >This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..
>>
>> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help
me or
>> the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as
stated.
>
>Nope... there were a few spike babies, but elves and dwarves are born,
not
>goblinised.
>
>Your figures are out because elves and dwarves started being born just
after
>the turn of the century. 10 years later, UGE started.
>
>The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s in SR
time.
>
>You can find this in the "How it came to pass" section of SR2... should
>still be in SR3.
>Robert Watkins --
robert.watkins@******.com

And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...

"The UGE cases started just before the Indians used shamanistic magic to
get portions of the western American states ceded to them. (ie. in 2011)
Magic, for lack of a better word, was altering much of the world. Some
children, born of human parents, SUDDENLY BEGAN

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Message no. 26
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon@*******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:44:16 PST
>> >>...... Were there transformation into elves and dwarves to start
>> >> with?
>> >
>> >Nope..they are born that way..or existed prior to the awakening..
>> >This is an old one ..But I'm recovered now..
>>
>> Okay. Now give me chapter and verse, since your answer didn't help
me or
>> the discussion I'm having a bit, and it's not very convincing as
stated.
>
>Nope... there were a few spike babies, but elves and dwarves are born,
not
>goblinised.
>
>Your figures are out because elves and dwarves started being born just
after
>the turn of the century. 10 years later, UGE started.
>
>The oldest non-spike elves would be hitting their mid/late-50s in SR
time.
>
>You can find this in the "How it came to pass" section of SR2... should
>still be in SR3.
>Robert Watkins --
robert.watkins@******.com

And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...

"The UGE cases started just before the Indians used shamanistic magic to
get portions of the western American states ceded to them. (ie. in 2011)
Magic, for lack of a better word, was altering much of the world. Some
children, born of human parents, SUDDENLY BEGAN TO TRANSFORM INTO
ANOTHER SPECIES. Some were short and stocky, others tall and thin, with
long ears. The media started calling them dwarfs and elves..."

And so on, and so forth. I don't know about you, but to me that says
that, yes, some early elves and dwarfs DID 'goblinise' - although it
also tends to indicate it was only the younger kids who were doing it.
Read what you will into that.

I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?

*"The Mafiosi - Trogs of the Fifth World." Doc' runs away, really
fast...*

Doc'

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Message no. 27
From: Dave Post caelric@****.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 14:51:10 -0800
At 02:44 PM 2/18/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>
>And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...
>
>"The UGE cases started just before the Indians used shamanistic magic to
>get portions of the western American states ceded to them. (ie. in 2011)
>Magic, for lack of a better word, was altering much of the world. Some
>children, born of human parents, SUDDENLY BEGAN TO TRANSFORM INTO
>ANOTHER SPECIES. Some were short and stocky, others tall and thin, with
>long ears. The media started calling them dwarfs and elves..."
>
>And so on, and so forth. I don't know about you, but to me that says
>that, yes, some early elves and dwarfs DID 'goblinise' - although it
>also tends to indicate it was only the younger kids who were doing it.
>Read what you will into that.
>
>I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?
>
>*"The Mafiosi - Trogs of the Fifth World." Doc' runs away, really
>fast...*
>
>Doc'
>
>.sig Sauer
>
>

Yes, all good, except....the novels aren't always considered canon. I
believe there was some recent debate over many 'mistakes' in the latest
novel, 'Run Fast, Die Hard'. Basically what came out of it, was that
novels are not considered canon, unless there is something backing them up
in one of the sourcebooks. As no-one has posted anything backing this up
from any sourcebook, I'm inclined to believe it isn't there, anywhere.
I've checked all mine, and I can't find anything in a sourcebook that says
anyone 'goblinized' into a elf or dwarf, and I have all the sourcebooks.
So, I'd agree with the side that says no one goblinized into elfs or
dwarfs, only orks and trolls.

Dave
Message no. 28
From: Bob Tockley zzdeden@*******.com.au
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:46:38 +1000
>And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...
>
>"The UGE cases started just before the Indians used shamanistic magic to
>get portions of the western American states ceded to them. (ie. in 2011)
>Magic, for lack of a better word, was altering much of the world. Some
>children, born of human parents, SUDDENLY BEGAN TO TRANSFORM INTO
>ANOTHER SPECIES. Some were short and stocky, others tall and thin, with
>long ears. The media started calling them dwarfs and elves..."
>
>And so on, and so forth. I don't know about you, but to me that says
>that, yes, some early elves and dwarfs DID 'goblinise' - although it
>also tends to indicate it was only the younger kids who were doing it.
>Read what you will into that.
>
>I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?

Not necessarily. Most of the crap that occurs in the novels has no real
place in the game world itself. This is just another case of an author
getting his wires crossed. In all regards, ever since SR1, Orks, Trolls
and similar races (ghouls, and so on) have been the only ones to Goblinize.
You're either born a Dwarf or an Elf or you're not. Simple as that.


(>) ARKHAM
"Edible underwear? What the hell're you talking about? If they made
edible underwear it'd have to have a flavour wouldn't it? Underwear
flavour - I don't think so... what...? Oh... oh... I see... watermelon, eh?"
Message no. 29
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 16:06:09 -0600
:As I said (or at least implied) before: There's *no* way that there are
as
:many elves and dwarves in the world as there are without *some* of them
:transforming as the mana threshold crested in the 2011-2017 timeframe.

How so? They form maybe 10% of world population, and started being
born in 2010 or so.

:There aren't *that* many IEs running about, nor can you convince me that
:there were that many spike babies. There are too many old elves running
:around for all (or any, for that matter) of them to have been born since
:2011.

To many old elves? Care to name some? I don't see how FASA has ever
implied that a signifigant number of elves were born before the awakening.
Note that "early birth" (but post awakening) elves would now be pushing
50. They would have been part of a really tiny (but growing) minority
most of thier early lives, but now they have a lot of younger (20-45 year
old) elves behind them.

Admitedly, the founding of the Tir nations in the mid 2030's does seem
a little pre-mature. A nation where the vast majority of the populace is
under 25 years old? Sounds rather unlikely... but fun!

Mongoose
Message no. 30
From: Ereskanti@***.com Ereskanti@***.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 21:14:23 EST
In a message dated 2/18/1999 5:45:56 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
docwagon@*******.com writes:

>
> I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?
>
Sadly, it's a novel, and one by Kubasik which has not been followed up with in
any real terms.

-K
Message no. 31
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 23:36:00 -0500
Rand Ratinac wrote:

> Starting in 2011, elves and dwarves started being BORN as elves as
> dwarves. Come to think of it, though, I've never heard of any elves or
> dwarves 'goblinising' - at least, not that I can think of off the top of
> my head.
>
> AFAIK, any elves or dwarves born before 2011 were spike babies, who were
> ALWAYS elves and dwarves.
>
> Of course, I SUSPECT Patrick is right and that some of them must have
> 'changed' from being normal humans.

Just to throw another wrench into the works... Who knows how many
babies were born spike babies (elves) and their parents and doctors
explained the ears as a freakish mutation. If cases were isolated
enough and few enough, you could have spike babies being born well
into the 1800's. These children would have lived their normal human
lifespans believing they were human until they realized that all their
friends were getting older and they weren't. And in the late 20th
century, plastic surgery would have been available to "fix" the ears
of these babies.

How would that affect the number of elves in the sixth world. ;)


> Then again, if you get into the whole IE conspiracy thing, it's possible
> that there WERE an extremely large amount of spike babies born leading
> up to the Awakening and that the IEs and other spike babies were doing
> their best to keep their younger kin concealed until the Awakening
> happened and there was no longer any point to it.

--
"My fellow Americans,
I'm pleased to tell you today, that I've signed legislation that
will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes"
-Ronald Reagan

Iridios
iridios@*********.com
ICQ UIN:6629224
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9489

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Message no. 32
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 10:47:35 +0100
According to Patrick Goodman, at 9:23 on 18 Feb 99, the word on
the street was...

> So? They give birth to orks and trolls, too. The thing is, though, that
> there aren't enough of them. The numbers don't add up, though, unless a
> staggering percentage of humans had dwarf and elf children in 2011, and then
> stopped having that staggering percentage not long afterwards.

It could be that nearly all children born in 2011 were elves, a relatively
small number were dwarfs (because dwarfs are what, 2% of the world's
population?), and an even smaller number were humans. After 2011, it could
then have went back to humans giving birth mainly (but not exclusively) to
other humans rather than UGE-babies.

Or doesn't this make sense?

--
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There's no such things as a "brown alert," sir.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
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Message no. 33
From: Marc Renouf renouf@********.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:06:47 -0500 (EST)
On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Rand Ratinac wrote:

> And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...

[SNIP quote]

> I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?

I don't know about anybody else, but I rarely consider anything
that came out of a novel canon, even if it came from the DLOH. It's
fiction, and authors tend to take poetic license with the history, or just
forget about the mechanics in the necessary rush to finish writing and
editing their work. Look at the stir after Tom Dowd had a
projecting mage unable to move astrally through a wooden door not
because it was living but because it had *once* been alive. Hell, if that
were the case, mages would always be wearing polyester and nylon clothes
because wool and cotton fabrics would trap them in their bodies. Clearly
it was something that either got missed, or was done to further the
storyline.
Someone has already posted about an author whose response was
"whoops" after having a character goblinize into a dwarf. Perhaps this
book is it? Having not read "Changeling" I cannot say.

Marc
Message no. 34
From: Damon Harper nomad74@*******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 08:56:50 PST
>"The UGE cases started just before the Indians used shamanistic magic
to
>get portions of the western American states ceded to them. (ie. in
2011)
>Magic, for lack of a better word, was altering much of the world. Some
>children, born of human parents, SUDDENLY BEGAN

I can't believe the subject is being argued. Humans goblinized into
orks and trolls. Elves and Dwarves were born as is from human parents
during the Awakening(and every so-often in 2060).
This is how it's been for the ten fraggin' years SR has been in
exsistance. Deal with it.
Now, getting back to the subject.
The term "breeder" is a derogatory term used by metahumans *to*
humans. Indicating the only thing a human is good for is to breed more
metahumans.

-Damon Harper
"Tell me, and I forget. Show me, and I remember.
But let me do, and I understand."
-Confucious
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Message no. 35
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon@*******.com
Subject: Breeder definition
Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 17:49:02 PST
>On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Rand Ratinac wrote:
>
>> And I quote from "Changeling", by Chris Kubasik...
>
>[SNIP quote]
>
>> I'd say that this could be considered canon. Wouldn't you?
>
> I don't know about anybody else, but I rarely consider anything
>that came out of a novel canon, even if it came from the DLOH. It's
>fiction, and authors tend to take poetic license with the history, or
just
>forget about the mechanics in the necessary rush to finish writing and
>editing their work. Look at the stir after Tom Dowd had a
>projecting mage unable to move astrally through a wooden door not
>because it was living but because it had *once* been alive. Hell, if
that
>were the case, mages would always be wearing polyester and nylon
clothes
>because wool and cotton fabrics would trap them in their bodies.
Clearly
>it was something that either got missed, or was done to further the
>storyline.
> Someone has already posted about an author whose response was
>"whoops" after having a character goblinize into a dwarf. Perhaps this
>book is it? Having not read "Changeling" I cannot say.
>
>Marc

I see your point, Marc, although I don't entirely agree. WHO the author
is does have some weight as far as I'm concerned.

At any rate, the instance you're referring to is taken from the novel
Shadowboxer, I believe. It certainly isn't from Changeling.

*For some strange reason, Doc' would believe Mike Mulvihill if he wrote
a book saying that in Shadowrun, the world had suddenly become flat.
He'd also believe him if Mike told him that while holding an AK-97 to
his head.*

Doc'

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