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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 12:59:24 -0400
On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Darth Vader wrote:

> > 2. Ivy calls the Internet (or whatever) a BBS.
> > 2a. People respond: This place is changed from a BBS, don't call it one.
> > 2b(or not?). Ivy says: I'll call it a BBS if I want.
>
> Internet was NEVER and will NEVER be a BBS!!!!!!!

Correct as usual, Lord Vader.

The first networked computers were at M.I.T. in the late fifties,
when some students played a practical joke by running a single two-lead
wire between two computers. They then brought a friend in to try playing
chess against one of the computers. In actuality, there was a human
playing aganist him from the other computer.
Jumping forwards a number of years, ARPAnet was started in 1969.
Eye-witness accounts tell that ARPAnet was nothing at all like the
current Internet, or even BITNET (which is a much more direct descendant
of ARPAnet than the Internet is.)
The Internet is truly nothing but a kludgy mish-mosh of supposedly
standardaized communications protocols. When you add in BITNET, UUCP, and
not-even-trying-to-be-standardized software like that found on FIDOnet,
WWIVnet, and services like America OnLine, the mish-mosh becomes even
worse. (Interestingly, USENET is generally more standardized.)
Ivy, your view of the SHADOWRN mailing list as a BBS started out
because it is obscured by whatever WWIV software you're using. It has
then been colored because I disagreed with you, which apparently is
something you are not equipped to deal with except through continued
arguing.

/-----------------\
| J.D. Falk | "The time is gone, the song is over
| jdfalk@****.com | Thought I'd something more to say."
\-----------------/ --Pink Floyd
Message no. 2
From: Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 13:45:19 -0700
Well, more expert testimony...

On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, J.D. Falk wrote:

Darth Vader's comments cut, and some of J.D.'s too. The "computer chess"
trick was good, but not the first time two computers were linked. That
was done with fire-control computers in WWII. And according to a Teacher
I had 3 years ago, who worked on the 1st computers, it was a common thing
while they tested them in the late 40s and early 50s.

> Jumping forwards a number of years, ARPAnet was started in 1969.
> Eye-witness accounts tell that ARPAnet was nothing at all like the
> current Internet, or even BITNET (which is a much more direct descendant
> of ARPAnet than the Internet is.)

Yup, it worked almost all the time. Had to, things, and people, counted
on it. It was a pain to keep it up, but that was more a function of the
commo channels we had than the computers (though they were nothing to
write home about either).

> The Internet is truly nothing but a kludgy mish-mosh of supposedly
> standardaized communications protocols. When you add in BITNET, UUCP, and
> not-even-trying-to-be-standardized software like that found on FIDOnet,
> WWIVnet, and services like America OnLine, the mish-mosh becomes even
> worse. (Interestingly, USENET is generally more standardized.)

Kludged. Yep, y'know what that actually means? A job done wrong because
the person doing it was either too stupid or too lazy to do it correctly.

> Ivy, your view of the SHADOWRN mailing list as a BBS started out
> because it is obscured by whatever WWIV software you're using. It has
> then been colored because I disagreed with you, which apparently is
> something you are not equipped to deal with except through continued
> arguing.

Not on WWIV. Said it LOOKED like a WWIV. I'm coming off a UNIX of some
kind. I call it a BBS because (1) That's what it is being used for, and
as. (2) The thing is as reliable as a 10cent watch (local UNIX crashes
at least once a day) (3) The people on it are the same ones that used
to hang around BBSs until they found their ways to this thing. (4) the
thing is a huge example of the Citadel Net that runs (or ran) across
america from NJ to CA around 1990.

I like to argue, J.D. But I expect reasoned responses too. Where is it
different from a BBS? It's bigger, and it runs on bigger computers but
it still works the same way. Maybe it's the dedicated lines? Nah, the
people running home BBSs just can't afford those. It's more modern? It
put a lot of BBSs out of business? IS that good? This thing _is_ the ne
plus ultra of BBSs, that I will admit.

Ivy
Message no. 3
From: Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 1994 20:24:16 -0400
I'm not sure who said this, but...

>> The Internet is truly nothing but a kludgy mish-mosh of supposedly
>> standardaized communications protocols.

That "mish-mash" as you put it is inherent in the design. It goes back to
milnet, darpanet, and arpanet. The design is distributed such that no
single machine or cluster is "central" to everyone. If any part of the
network is taken out (via a nuclear strike, for example) the rest of the
network just ignores the missing parts and reroutes. The fact that the
"network of networks" called Internet blankets the world is proof of
concept.

--
Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> | "When sub-culture becomes pop-culture,
http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox | it's time to move on to something new."
PGP Public Key: Ask for one today! | --Dana Carvey
Message no. 4
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 11:01:50 +1000
Ivy wrote:

> Kludged. Yep, y'know what that actually means? A job done wrong because
> the person doing it was either too stupid or too lazy to do it correctly.

IMHO, the Internet works really well. It went through a bad patch when
it scaled up past its original intended upper bounds, but since Zhia Xang
[sp?] and van Jacobson came up with the congestion algorithm, everything
Just Works.

> Not on WWIV. Said it LOOKED like a WWIV. I'm coming off a UNIX of some
> kind. I call it a BBS because (1) That's what it is being used for, and
> as. (2) The thing is as reliable as a 10cent watch (local UNIX crashes
> at least once a day)

Your Unix system crashes once a day!!! What _is_ it? I've used _lots_ of
flavours of Unix (15 years of them), and this is far, far higher than even
systems where people have been actively hacking the kernel!

(I've never used a BBS, but I thought it was like a real-world bulletin-board,
where anyone could go to it and write something up on it. Since you have to
subscribe to SHADOWRN, it therefore seems slightly different to me.)

Oh, and it's `Brief', not `Breif'. :-)
(Remember: I before E, except after C, or after V (if i/e is pronounced
`ay'), or before G or R, or if it's pronounced like a long I. Which covers
90% of cases. Simple, neh? :-)

luke@*******.states
Message no. 5
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 22:52:48 +0000
luke writes:

> Your Unix system crashes once a day!!! What _is_ it? I've used _lots_ of
> flavours of Unix (15 years of them), and this is far, far higher than even
> systems where people have been actively hacking the kernel!

Well, it could be the link you have. Our slip link used to crash every 20 mins
to 2 hrs. But the system rarely goes down (except for repairs or maintenance,
oh, and when someone hacked into it)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 6
From: Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.CAS.USF.EDU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 09:14:11 -0400
On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> Oh, and it's `Brief', not `Breif'. :-)
> (Remember: I before E, except after C, or after V (if i/e is pronounced
> `ay'), or before G or R, or if it's pronounced like a long I. Which covers
> 90% of cases. Simple, neh? :-)

Spelling flames suck. Uhhhh huh huh huh

Doc X (with our little dose of pop anti-culture for the day)
*****************************************************************************
* Dylan Northrup <northrup@*****.cas.usf.edu> * PGP and Geek Code available *
*********************************************** via WWW and upon request *
* Will code HTML for food * KIBO #7 * <http://www.cas.usf.edu/dylan.html>; *
*****************************************************************************
-----------------------
Random Babylon 5 Quote:
-----------------------
"Your time has come and gone. It's our turn now!"
-- G'Kar (to Londo), "Midnight on the Firing Line"
Message no. 7
From: A cohort's CoHort <cohort@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 06:30:30 -0700
On Wed, 27 Jul 1994, Luke Kendall wrote:

> (Remember: I before E, except after C, or after V (if i/e is pronounced
> `ay'), or before G or R, or if it's pronounced like a long I. Which covers
> 90% of cases. Simple, neh? :-)
>
Yeah, and "weird" is one of the odd ones...

cohort@******.connected.com
-----=====-----
Main's Law: For every action there is an equal
and opposite government program.
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@******.UOW.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 23:42:02 +0000
Doc x writes:

> > Oh, and it's `Brief', not `Breif'. :-)
> > (Remember: I before E, except after C, or after V (if i/e is pronounced
> > `ay'), or before G or R, or if it's pronounced like a long I. Which covers
> > 90% of cases. Simple, neh? :-)
>
> Spelling flames suck. Uhhhh huh huh huh

Was it a spelling flame though? I thought it was a rather clever contribution
to the ongoing discussion about the difficulty of learning different
languages. It is stating that the rules in the English language are hardly
rules at all. They have exceptions for about three or so different common
cases, and then even with the exceptions they only apply true about 90% of
the time. Very clever whoever wrote it. :-) I wont get into the duscussion
on languages, as I wouldnt have a clue. I'm ignorant. So dont bother replying
to me expecting a reasonable response. :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-Mail: u9467882@******.uow.edu.au

(Geek Code 2.1) GE d@ H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v C+ U P? !L !3 E? N K- W+ M
!V po@ Y t(+) !5 !j r+(++) G(+) !tv(--) b++ D+ B? e+ u@ h+(*)
f+@ !r n--(----)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Chris Siebenmann <cks@********.UTCS.TORONTO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 1994 20:34:04 -0400
Can we please stop talking through our hats and drop the whole
thing? There are a number of books and papers on the origins of the
ARPANet et al for people who want to know accurate information.

- cks
[In the interest of this, I will pass on making various commentaries on
various peoples version of history.]
Message no. 10
From: "J.D. Falk" <jdfalk@****.CAIS.COM>
Subject: Re: Breif History of Telecommunications, damnit!
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 1994 01:26:37 -0400
On Tue, 26 Jul 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

> I'm not sure who said this, but...
>
> >> The Internet is truly nothing but a kludgy mish-mosh of supposedly
> >> standardaized communications protocols.
>
> That "mish-mash" as you put it is inherent in the design. It goes back to
> milnet, darpanet, and arpanet. The design is distributed such that no
> single machine or cluster is "central" to everyone. If any part of the
> network is taken out (via a nuclear strike, for example) the rest of the
> network just ignores the missing parts and reroutes. The fact that the
> "network of networks" called Internet blankets the world is proof of
> concept.

I never said 'twas a _bad_ thing...just that it is. And it is,
and we love it, right everybody? (Yeaaa! Yay Internet! Long live the
kludgy mish-mosh!)

/-----------------\
| J.D. Falk | "A thin moon slips behind them
| jdfalk@****.com | as they pull the net with no betraying light."
\-----------------/ -Jethro Tull

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