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Message no. 1
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:42:04 GMT
This message deals, in some ways, to the message MattB decided to send
out. I would have put some clips of said message in, but I was too
quick on the draw and deleted it. Oh well.
Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve and
protect? Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
fashion.
Why would it make any difference if it was in the future? What are you
saying? That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"
Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
do anything if offered enough cash.

Wuurm,
Dragon Of Knowledge And Power

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Message no. 2
From: Leto Atreides 2 <tmc1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:42:25 -0700
Alex Fuson wrote:
>
> This message deals, in some ways, to the message MattB decided to send
> out. I would have put some clips of said message in, but I was too
> quick on the draw and deleted it. Oh well.
> Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve and
> protect? Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
> police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
> fashion.
> Why would it make any difference if it was in the future? What are you
> saying? That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
> bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"
> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
> do anything if offered enough cash.
>

I agree. Corruption is getting worse now, why should it stop all of a
sudden in the late 2050's?
--
Leto Atreides 2 UIN#7298095
You can e-mail me at tmc1@****.com (preferred) or at
letoatreides2@*******.com. I am on Regent of Dune
as Estios. (Couldn't very well do Leto 2, ya know.)
My homepage is Http://members.home.com/tmc1. My
PGP public key is there.

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Knowledge is the greatest barrier against learning.
-Zensunni Koan
Message no. 3
From: Lucas Wagner <cricket@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 20:45:34 -0500
Alex Fuson wrote:
>
> Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve and
> protect? Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
> police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
> fashion.

Note that you're referring to individual officers, versus an entire
corporation. Lone Star would have to do something if someone found out
that this was happening, by taking action against the officer, so anyone
would be wary about taking bribes, like they are now.

> Why would it make any difference if it was in the future? What are you

Things DO change, you know. In SR, it is for the worse, so individual
bribes may be possible for low-profile stuff, but something big against
a mega-corp couldn't just be swept under the rug.

> saying? That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
> bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"

It would be less likely, because he's going to be in a lot of trouble if
he's found out.

> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
> do anything if offered enough cash.

I take that as an insult. Maybe I'm idealistic, but there are a lot of
things that are much more dear to me than money. You have to look at
money's use to the person. If they're living comfortably, then what
reason other than greed is there to accept bribes? He surely can't
collect tons of bribes and buy a rich man's lifestyle; that'd be very
suspicious. So you're limited to the few that can be snuck under the
people who watch, who have an easier time of it then than today, because
of the credsticks.

This is my first post, so please be gentle with any mistakes. :)

Lucas
Message no. 4
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:02:25 -0700
>Alex Fuson wrote:
>>
>> Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve and
>> protect? Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
>> police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or fashion.
>> Why would it make any difference if it was in the future? What are you
>> saying? That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
>> bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"
>> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
>> do anything if offered enough cash.
>
>I agree. Corruption is getting worse now, why should it stop all of a
>sudden in the late 2050's?

Of individual officers? It won't. In fact, Shadowrun's premise is based
largely around corruption and struggling for the almighty nuyen.

At the same time, that's *individual* officers. And while they're quite
likely to look the other way for the appropriate amount, the corp as a whole
can't afford to be seen as getting a reputation like that. It's not that
they're not incorruptible or on some higher moral ground, it's just that the
long-term loss of faith, hence contracts, hence nuyen, is larger than the
short term gain.

Big corp could very well send their guy down on the street and pay an
officer on duty a little extra to "just throw those gloves down the laundry
chute to be cleaned, ok?" But thinking they'll call up lone-star and say,
"We'll make a big donation to your retirement fund if this case disappears,"
is (in my mind) completely off base. Not only can LS not afford to get the
rep of selling out to the highest bidder, they can't afford to give any other
corp this kind of blackmail material.

-Karl

0.02 cents? You think it's worth THAT much?
Message no. 5
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:13:50 -0800
Alex Fuson wrote:

> This message deals, in some ways, to the message MattB decided to send
> out. I would have put some clips of said message in, but I was too
> quick on the draw and deleted it. Oh well.

Most of the questions you raised were answered in the original post. Oh
well.

> Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve and
> protect?

I was perhaps to hasty here. Lone Star takes its mission statement to
be "To serve and protect - and make a pile of nuyen, too!"

Obviously there are limits to this - LoneStar protects its clients first
and foremost; any others stand in line. That doesn't mean, however,
that its clients - municipal, corporate, or private - have carte blanche
to do whatever they want.

> Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
> police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
> fashion.

I'd really like to know where you draw this figure from.

> Why would it make any difference if it was in the future?

Not much. I don't believe police corps in this present day are as
corrupt as you mention - especially such an unsubtantiatedly large
percentage - but, regardless of the century, *any* business has to meet
clients' needs. LoneStar takes, as part of its business, policing
duties.

When a Lone Star Contract Manager - or whatever fancy title they get -
says to the Mayor of Somewheresville, UCAS, "Okay, we have a five-year
contract to keep your streets safe," he's creating a business
relationship. It carries with it benefits - sacks of nuyen - and
responsibilities. If a criminal waves a credstick under a ebat cop's
nose and waltzes for it (and the precinct officer hears about it) that
cop is going to get a reprimand and probably dismissal from the force.
Because if that information lands up on the Mayor's desk, it makes the
precinct boss look bad, and the contract manager look bad, and both
those people make decent sums of money and do't like being pissed off
and having their cushy jobs put in jeopardy. Enough complaints of
corruption and the city opts out of the contract and finds another
policing agency.

That's the downside of being LoneStar: suddenly, unlike present-day US,
you have a very flexible contract. Someone else can always pick it up.
(SR doesn't go much into other security forms, but - iirc - NAGRL listed
about six or ten in the private and corporate security business,
Wolverine Security et al. Municipal's an interesting story.)

> What are you saying?

Nice battlecry.

I was responding to a point made by someone else that LoneStar, when
offered a suitable sum of money, would turn its back on *any* case.
(The example given in that post was a particular statement, which the
author of the post seemed to extrapolate to be a general statement.
I've deleted *his* message, and I don't like putting words into people's
mouths; but that's what seemed to be said.) While corruption may/will
certainly rear its head in a campaign, it's going to be the unusual
instance, rather than the norm.

> That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
> bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"

Nope. That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, *might* not take a
bribe because it puts his ass on the line. Cops are people too; when
you've got children to feed, "a job" means so much more. Taking a bribe
carries pretty severe penalties.

But I am saying that - as a corporation - LoneStar cannot, will not, and
must not lend itself to corruption. An open policy of 'looking the
other way' would damage its reputation beyond belief. Clients pay them
to keep their small worlds safe.

> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
> do anything if offered enough cash.

Your opinion; fine. I've found, however, that as many will get
seriously offended that you think you can patch things over with money
than will tkae the dough and look the other way.

All that being said, bribes and graft will happen. I said as much in
the original post. However, that's at an individual level - and is a
fairly rare situation. The right crime, the right amount, said the
right way. The corporate level and the corporate policy is forced to be
otherwise, however.

Not that there aren't strings to be pulled and maneuvers to be made;
making LoneStar a bit more "righteous" makes things more difficult for
the players, but opens up some interesting possibilities as well.

So, though question for you: Now that you called 'my' philosophy stupid
and generally upset my delicate temperament (ha!), how much money do you
think you'd have to pay to stop me from killing you? After all, "anyone
and everyone will do anything if offered enough cash"....

*Just* a question, not an actual threat.


-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl
Message no. 6
From: Philippe Garneau <pgarneau@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sat, 14 Feb 1998 22:37:15 -0500
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Lucas Wagner <cricket@********.NET>
À : SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date : samedi 14 février 1998 21:00
Objet : Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)


>Alex Fuson wrote:
>>
>It would be less likely, because he's going to be in a lot of trouble if
>he's found out.
>
>> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone will
>> do anything if offered enough cash.
>
>I take that as an insult. Maybe I'm idealistic, but there are a lot of
>things that are much more dear to me than money. You have to look at
>money's use to the person. If they're living comfortably, then what
>reason other than greed is there to accept bribes? He surely can't
>collect tons of bribes and buy a rich man's lifestyle; that'd be very
>suspicious
>Lucas

Well, as someone said it before, things have turned out for the worse in SR,
and many street cops may have difficulty to join both ends, especially if
they pop up a few kids and buy a house, and have to pay entirely for the
kids education... bribes would be very tempting... it would mean a
diffenrence between soy every day and a beefsteak once in a while, you know!
:-)

if you've seen "Soylent Green" remember the fascination of the characters
for real food (strawberries)... it may offer you an idea of the situation in
SR.

welcome to the list! (i'm kinda new too)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

Philippe Garneau, a.k.a Filou, Philou, whatever...
B. Sc. en Microbiologie

"It's gonna be a NICE evening."
Message no. 7
From: Lucas Wagner <cricket@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:50:56 -0500
Philippe Garneau wrote:
>
> >Alex Fuson wrote:
> >>
> >
> >I take that as an insult. Maybe I'm idealistic, but there are a lot of
> >things that are much more dear to me than money. You have to look at
> >money's use to the person. If they're living comfortably, then what
> >reason other than greed is there to accept bribes? He surely can't
> >collect tons of bribes and buy a rich man's lifestyle; that'd be very
> >suspicious
> >Lucas
>
> Well, as someone said it before, things have turned out for the worse in SR,
> and many street cops may have difficulty to join both ends, especially if
> they pop up a few kids and buy a house, and have to pay entirely for the
> kids education... bribes would be very tempting... it would mean a
> diffenrence between soy every day and a beefsteak once in a while, you know!

But is that worth losing your job? Like I said, LS can't afford to have
corrupt cops, because no one will hire them. Remember that they are not
the only police force for hire, and if they start having a bad record,
they lose jobs, unlike the police force today.


Lucas aka Lunky
Message no. 8
From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 10:52:37 -0600
Lucas Wagner wrote:
> > Well, as someone said it before, things have turned out for the worse in SR,
> > and many street cops may have difficulty to join both ends, especially if
> > they pop up a few kids and buy a house, and have to pay entirely for the
> > kids education... bribes would be very tempting... it would mean a
> > diffenrence between soy every day and a beefsteak once in a while, you know!
>
> But is that worth losing your job? Like I said, LS can't afford to have
> corrupt cops, because no one will hire them. Remember that they are not
> the only police force for hire, and if they start having a bad record,
> they lose jobs, unlike the police force today.

The fact is you will always have good cops and dirty cops. Offer a good
cop a bribe and it buys you a world of hurt. Offer a dirty cop a bribe
and you get what you want. Then again with the dirty cop just how much ¥
are we talking about chummer, I got a wife and kids of support ya know.

--

You live and learn. Or you don't live long.
Message no. 9
From: Kristling Ravenwing <kristling@*******.CROSSWINDS.NET>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 12:36:35 -0500
> From: s c rose <scrose@****.COM>
> To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
> Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
> Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 11:52 AM
>
> Lucas Wagner wrote:
> > > Well, as someone said it before, things have turned out for the worse
in SR,
> > > and many street cops may have difficulty to join both ends, especially
if
> > > they pop up a few kids and buy a house, and have to pay entirely for
the
> > > kids education... bribes would be very tempting... it would mean a
> > > diffenrence between soy every day and a beefsteak once in a while, you
know!
> >
> > But is that worth losing your job? Like I said, LS can't afford to have
> > corrupt cops, because no one will hire them. Remember that they are not
> > the only police force for hire, and if they start having a bad record,
> > they lose jobs, unlike the police force today.
>
> The fact is you will always have good cops and dirty cops. Offer a good
> cop a bribe and it buys you a world of hurt. Offer a dirty cop a bribe
> and you get what you want. Then again with the dirty cop just how much ¥
> are we talking about chummer, I got a wife and kids of support ya know.
>
Good point man.

I think the fact that SR takes place in a (partly) cyber-punk world with
megacorps makes us want to type cast all members oh a group. We can't say
lonestar as whole is corrupt. I usually play it this way- sometimes they're
"good cops" with no respect for runners, sometimes there bad cops who can be
bought, and there's the rare one in a bundle that doesn't treat a runner
according to *that* group sterotype and acctual treats a shadowrunner like a
*person*.
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 19:38:57 +0100
Lucas Wagner said on 20:45/14 Feb 98...

> Note that you're referring to individual officers, versus an entire
> corporation. Lone Star would have to do something if someone found out
> that this was happening, by taking action against the officer, so anyone
> would be wary about taking bribes, like they are now.

Not necessarily. They could make a scapegoat of the officers the outside
world catches taking too many bribes, and leave the rest be with a "Be a
good boy/girl and don't let be caught being bribed again, 'kay?" type
warning which essentially says they can take bribes but it shouldn't be
too much too soon, else they'll be noticed and that will reflect badly on
Lone Star Security Services as a corporation.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html - UIN5044116
That's just fine.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Message no. 11
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:03:01 -0500
On 14 Feb 98 at 22:13, Matb wrote:

> > Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
> > police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
> > fashion.
>
> I'd really like to know where you draw this figure from.

Me too. Methinks someone has been watching too much Geraldo...

The media focuses way too much on the bad cops. I know a few cops.
I have a friend that is married to one. Statements like the one above
really piss them off, because they simply aren't true.

Yea, there are bad cops. And the good ones like nothing better than
to appropriately villify them. But bad cops are not as prevalent as
people would like you to believe.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net====
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
=================================================================
Actual Newspaper Headline #41
Chef Throws His Heart into Helping Feed Needy

Check out my webpage for the others!
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 12
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:44:54 GMT
[snip, snip, snip, snip, snip]
>I take that as an insult. Maybe I'm idealistic, but there are a lot of
>things that are much more dear to me than money. You have to look at
>money's use to the person. If they're living comfortably, then what
>reason other than greed is there to accept bribes? He surely can't
>collect tons of bribes and buy a rich man's lifestyle; that'd be very
>suspicious. So you're limited to the few that can be snuck under the
>people who watch, who have an easier time of it then than today,
because
>of the credsticks.
>
>This is my first post, so please be gentle with any mistakes. :)
>
>Lucas

You have to remmeber, though, that there ARE other ways of persuading
someone to do what you want. I never said that it was just cash that
you'd be making. Simsense chips, black mail, helping you with that one
last promotion you need, killing someone for you, retrieval of some
vital information to your family or friends, etc.

Wuurm

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Message no. 13
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 21:54:20 GMT
[snip]
>So, though question for you: Now that you called 'my' philosophy stupid
>and generally upset my delicate temperament (ha!), how much money do
you
>think you'd have to pay to stop me from killing you? After all,
"anyone
>and everyone will do anything if offered enough cash"....
>
>*Just* a question, not an actual threat.
>
>
>-Matt
[snip]

Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said it was a stupid philosophy. I was in
a bit of a rush and wasn't paying attention to what I was typing/saying.
My apologies in that area.

Wuurm

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Message no. 14
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:05:24 GMT
[snip]
>The fact is you will always have good cops and dirty cops. Offer a good
>cop a bribe and it buys you a world of hurt. Offer a dirty cop a bribe
>and you get what you want. Then again with the dirty cop just how much
¥
>are we talking about chummer, I got a wife and kids of support ya know.
[snip]

Finally, someone that understands the point that I'm trying to get
across. I am NOT saying that every cop you walk up to in SR is gonna
take a bribe from you. Hell, most of them will slap the cuffs on you as
soon as look at you.
I am just saying that there are a few that will take a bribe. Hell,
maybe not even a cash bribe. Who's to say what a man's, or woman's,
tastes are. A SIMchip here, or the retrieval of some vital info. may
gain a small (or even large) favor here and there.
And what is with all this lose their reputaion drek? DO you all REALLY
think that Lone Star is going to go out to Time Square and make a
multi-million exchange in front of two million reporters?
Lone Star, if any of them are willing to except the bribe, will NOT be
doing that. They will pick a discreet little location, exchange over
the Matrix, or even just have the Corp. send it in a pizza box (just an
example).

Wuurm

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Message no. 15
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:08:50 GMT
[snip]
>Not necessarily. They could make a scapegoat of the officers the
outside
>world catches taking too many bribes, and leave the rest be with a "Be
a
>good boy/girl and don't let be caught being bribed again, 'kay?" type
>warning which essentially says they can take bribes but it shouldn't be
>too much too soon, else they'll be noticed and that will reflect badly
on
>Lone Star Security Services as a corporation.
>
>--
>Gurth [snip]

Good point Gurth. Thank you for bringing that up.

Wuurm

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Message no. 16
From: Alex Fuson <alexfuson@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 22:11:55 GMT
[snip]
>> > Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
>> > police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
>> > fashion.
>>
>> I'd really like to know where you draw this figure from.
>
>Me too. Methinks someone has been watching too much Geraldo...
>
>The media focuses way too much on the bad cops. I know a few cops.
>I have a friend that is married to one. Statements like the one above
>really piss them off, because they simply aren't true.
>
>Yea, there are bad cops. And the good ones like nothing better than
>to appropriately villify them. But bad cops are not as prevalent as
>people would like you to believe.
[snip some more]

Okay, okay. This figure was made completely through speediness and
hastiness. It may, or may not, be entirely true.

Wuurm

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Message no. 17
From: John Penta <johndevil@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 17:57:00 -0500
>> This message deals, in some ways, to the message MattB decided to
>send
>> out. I would have put some clips of said message in, but I was too
>> quick on the draw and deleted it. Oh well.
>> Anyways. What do you mean by saying that Lone Star is here to serve
>and
>> protect? Look at our poilice system now a days! Almost 30% of our
>> police officers have and are still taking bribes in some form or
>> fashion.
>> Why would it make any difference if it was in the future? What are
>you
>> saying? That a cop, in a vile, crime-filled world, wouldn't take a
>> bribe every once and awhile because he's "a cop???"
>> Needless to say, that is a stupid philosophy. Anyone and everyone
>will
>> do anything if offered enough cash.
>>
>
>I agree. Corruption is getting worse now, why should it stop all of a
>sudden in the late 2050's?
Actually, in most major departments(using NYPD as an example), while it
still happens...it's a LOT less than it used to be, say, in the 70s. The
Mollen Commission in NY cleaned it up a few years back, and the current
mayor/police commissioner either are REALLY good at hding corruption, or
Internal Affairs bagged the biggies 2 years ago. One other thing to
remember:Internal Affairs, then and now, is going to be the Gestapo of
the police department/Lone Star. There's even a mention in the LS
sourcebook that says something to the effect that IA will execute
somebody based on a rumor! VERY unlikely an LS cop will take a bribe
unless they can get it past their higherups, or yer in Quebec(read LS
sourcebook for info on that.)

JCP

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Message no. 18
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Bribes, bribes, bribes (Was: Runners Lives Suck)
Date: Sun, 15 Feb 1998 18:32:08 -0800
Alex Fuson wrote:

> [snip]

> Okay, maybe I shouldn't have said it was a stupid philosophy. I was in
> a bit of a rush and wasn't paying attention to what I was typing/saying.
> My apologies in that area.

Don't worry about it. I have a habit of acting terribly offended when
I'm not. :)

BTAIM, I *do* think bribery and corruption deserve their place in
Shadowrun; I think the way things shake out as a result of it create
some very interesting plotlines. Bribery is going to be the od
situation rather than the norm.. but it's the odd situations that make
the most interesting adventures.

-Matt

------------------------------------
With nomads I am numbered. -- E. MacColl

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Thwap!