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Message no. 1
From: Andy Minor andyman@****.pyro.net
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 14:47:44 -0500 (CDT)
> >From: James Dening <james@************.force9.co.uk>

> > >Here's the actual character sheet submitted to me. I just put it
> >into my HTML
> > >format. This is before revisions. I've told the player of a few
> >things I want
> > >revised and am waiting on him to get back to me.
> >
> >Sorry, am I being really dim, but I thought you had to have a skill starting
> >no higher than the relevant attribute - i.e. Int 2 means he can only have
> >a sorcery of 2.

Actually, his skills are legal. Sorcery is linked to Willpower, not Int.
And skills can go higher than their linked attributes, it just costs more.

> >And, I'm afraid the character is a munchkin.

I'm going to have to agree with that. No social skills, all combat skills,
and a Charisma of 1 are all good signs.

His math seems a little off to me. Int 2 means 10 in Knowledges and 3 in
Languages, so he's a little over in those categories. Unless I've done the
math wrong on Attributes (trying Giant for memory, I hope this is right),
he's got 46 Build Points of Atts instead of 40 as indicated. And even by
his math, the character totals 122 BP (Aptitude for 4, Pain Resistance for
2), with the -12 in flaws that you said you don't like.

He also has 55 points of Spells and 4 pts of bonded foci. I didn't look
through equipment in-depth, but that's a lot of money for spell pts (like
24 extras, so 600K). He also has no lifestyle, and no vehicles, so
nowhere to store his LMGs and miniguns.

The story indicates that he keeps this gorgeous shapeshifter girl around
through his winning charm and debonair personality (I forget the wording
exactly), but he has a Charisma of 1 and an Intelligence of 2.

I can't recall offhand, is there a restriction at character creation that
you can't learn any spells higher than your sorcery skill?

> >Charisma 1 - noone will like him at all.
> >No social skills....
> >Day job ***3**** - so, he's available for runs at 10.30am, for 8 minutes, once
> >and month.

--
Andyman
Andyman@****.net
Message no. 2
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 13:43:15 +700
>> > >Here's the actual character sheet submitted to me. I just put it into my
HTML
>> > >format. This is before revisions. I've told the player of a few things
I want
>> > >revised and am waiting on him to get back to me.
>> >
>> >Sorry, am I being really dim, but I thought you had to have a skill starting

>> >no higher than the relevant attribute - i.e. Int 2 means he can only have

>> >a sorcery of 2.
>
>Actually, his skills are legal. Sorcery is linked to Willpower, not Int.
>And skills can go higher than their linked attributes, it just costs more.


Which means his Sorcery skill should have cost what? It's technically a 4 so
I assume 4. But does the specialization being 1 above Will make it cost more?
Anyone got a page number?

>> >And, I'm afraid the character is a munchkin.
>
>I'm going to have to agree with that. No social skills, all combat skills,

>and a Charisma of 1 are all good signs.

Yep. I would agree on that call. He's my player too. This character was the
result of me outlawing bioware and betaware until after Man and Machine comes
out.
(That call lost me one player, and caused this player to change characters)


>His math seems a little off to me. Int 2 means 10 in Knowledges and 3 in
>Languages, so he's a little over in those categories. Unless I've done the

>math wrong on Attributes (trying Giant for memory, I hope this is right),
>he's got 46 Build Points of Atts instead of 40 as indicated. And even by
>his math, the character totals 122 BP (Aptitude for 4, Pain Resistance for

>2), with the -12 in flaws that you said you don't like.

When I added the stats up they come out to 48. The 40 is a typo as I used the
HTML sheet of another PC and just cut and paste. GIant is +5B -1 Q +5S -2I -2C
and some non stat stuff. Add to that 15 for Giant, 25 for aspected Mage, 30
for Resources, and 18 for skills that's 136. 142 after edges. 130 after flaws.
7 too high. Not to mention that Flaws should come to -6 under my rulings so
it's actually 13 too high. That 30 points on Resources is killing him.

>He also has 55 points of Spells and 4 pts of bonded foci. I didn't look
>through equipment in-depth, but that's a lot of money for spell pts (like
>24 extras, so 600K). He also has no lifestyle, and no vehicles, so
>nowhere to store his LMGs and miniguns.

Heh. Good catch. He spent 30 points to get resources 1 million.
But used it all on spells&guns looks like.

>The story indicates that he keeps this gorgeous shapeshifter girl around
>through his winning charm and debonair personality (I forget the wording
>exactly), but he has a Charisma of 1 and an Intelligence of 2.
>
>I can't recall offhand, is there a restriction at character creation that
>you can't learn any spells higher than your sorcery skill?

Actually the restriction is that you can't have higher than force 6. The one
you mentioned may be there as well. I will look. He has 4 force 7 spells. He
justifies it via the fetishes. But while the fetishes will cut the cost of a
spell, they don't allow for an over force 6 spell.
I pointed this out to him yesterday. His reply was most foul and I may soon
be down to 4 players. :)

>> >Charisma 1 - noone will like him at all.
>> >No social skills....
>> >Day job ***3**** - so, he's available for runs at 10.30am, for 8 minutes,
once
>> >and month.

I pointed out to him that at 2 INT and 1 CHA he's a dumb introvert. No matter
what he may say, even if he tries to roleplay 'out of character' and be charming
and witty the game mechanics will get him... Ettiquete tests, perception tests,
and all manner of tests. His expensive contacts won't last long as he'll fail
every ettiquite he makes to deal with them...

If I do let him play this character, it will likely implode upon itself through
it's own design flaws in one or two sessions.

I tried to point out the day job issue and he said his job is that he does financial
work for shadowrunners; so he's still available... My thought on that is...
yeah right... on a 2 INT you're an accountant. Maybe the 1 CHA is right for
an accountant :), but not the INT... Also, I've been a Champions GM for 14 years
now. There's an old rule there that I can see working here as well: If a disadvantage
(in this case Flaw) doesn't hinder, it ain't a disad so it ain't worth points.


I'm going to tone down this email somewhat and send it to him. He's on character
#3 out of 4 gaming sessions right now. Last night in response to all this he
sent me 'a new character' of the same name. Only a Formori at -9 in Flaws. So
we may be on #4 but I'm going to give it a last effort to stablize or I open
up a discussion privately with a few key members of the rest of the group about
replacing him. Which is annoying cause unlike the other munchkin who left I
like this player.
Message no. 3
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 16:50:37 -0400
>Yep. I would agree on that call. He's my player too. This character
was the
>result of me outlawing bioware and betaware until after Man and
Machine comes
>out.
>(That call lost me one player, and caused this player to change
characters)
>


* rgumbles something about players like that being...well, to be
polite, cats. *

>>He also has 55 points of Spells and 4 pts of bonded foci. I didn't
look
>>through equipment in-depth, but that's a lot of money for spell pts
(like
>>24 extras, so 600K). He also has no lifestyle, and no vehicles, so
>>nowhere to store his LMGs and miniguns.


Too many points. Isn't the limit 50?


>Actually the restriction is that you can't have higher than force 6.
The one
>you mentioned may be there as well. I will look. He has 4 force 7
spells. He
>justifies it via the fetishes. But while the fetishes will cut the
cost of a
>spell, they don't allow for an over force 6 spell.
>I pointed this out to him yesterday. His reply was most foul and I
may soon
>be down to 4 players. :)


* grubles something about munchkins being...ah, forget it. I'd just
kill him in the first five minutes. Really. *

Waitaminute, so spells over Force 6, period? (This is a question I've
been meaning to ask.) Or Force 6 before modifications (shaman or
otherwise)? Can I say, have a Dragonslayer Shaman with an fetish
limited Force 10 Manaball, or is he limited to a Force9 (due to
Shamanic modifier)?

>>> >Charisma 1 - noone will like him at all.
>>> >No social skills....
>>> >Day job ***3**** - so, he's available for runs at 10.30am, for 8
minutes,
>once
>>> >and month.
>
>I pointed out to him that at 2 INT and 1 CHA he's a dumb introvert.
No matter
>what he may say, even if he tries to roleplay 'out of character' and
be charming
>and witty the game mechanics will get him... Ettiquete tests,
perception tests,
>and all manner of tests. His expensive contacts won't last long as
he'll fail
>every ettiquite he makes to deal with them...


With a CHA of 1 and he being a big, stupid giant with no home and a
lot of guns, I'd just kill him with a torch-bearing mob...

>If I do let him play this character, it will likely implode upon
itself through
>it's own design flaws in one or two sessions.
>
>I tried to point out the day job issue and he said his job is that he
does financial
>work for shadowrunners; so he's still available... My thought on that
is...
>yeah right... on a 2 INT you're an accountant. Maybe the 1 CHA is
right for
>an accountant :), but not the INT... Also, I've been a Champions GM
for 14 years
>now. There's an old rule there that I can see working here as well:
If a disadvantage
>(in this case Flaw) doesn't hinder, it ain't a disad so it ain't
worth points.


I dunno...he could be a really BAD accountant, which would give him
lots and lots and lots of enemies....

>I'm going to tone down this email somewhat and send it to him. He's
on character
>#3 out of 4 gaming sessions right now. Last night in response to all
this he
>sent me 'a new character' of the same name. Only a Formori at -9 in
Flaws. So
>we may be on #4 but I'm going to give it a last effort to stablize or
I open
>up a discussion privately with a few key members of the rest of the
group about
>replacing him. Which is annoying cause unlike the other munchkin who
left I
>like this player.


Make him take the priority system; it'll limit his munchkin options.
Or do what I do to players who threaten to quit: hand them a bag of
kitty litter and tell them it's for the next time they wanna use the
bathroom.

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 4
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 18:25:45 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
] Waitaminute, so spells over Force 6, period? (This is a question I've
] been meaning to ask.) Or Force 6 before modifications (shaman or
] otherwise)? Can I say, have a Dragonslayer Shaman with an fetish
] limited Force 10 Manaball, or is he limited to a Force9 (due to
] Shamanic modifier)?

Whoa there...totem modifiers don't increase the Force of the spell,
they add dice. Big difference. Likewise, Exclusive and Fetish limited
spells aren't more powerful, you resist Drain as if they were _less_
powerful. Examples:

Billy casts a Force 5 Stunball spell, his favourite bit o' mojo.
Normally, his Magic rating being 3, Billy would have to resist Physical
Drain, as his spell's Force is higher than his Magic. He learned the
spell as Exclusive, though, so when he casts it at Force 5, he resists
Drain as if he had cast at Force 3 (5, -2 for being Exclusive), and
therefore resists Stun damage. The target has to resist the full Force
of 5 (WHOMP!).

Heather (Magic 7, Sorcery 6), a Bison (NOT Buffalo) shaman, casts an
Invisibility spell on herself. She whips it off at Force 4, but
because Bison's about as sneaky as a front-end loader (-1 to Illusion
spells), she only rolls 5 dice instead of her usual 6. The security
guard who's...uh...guarding, still has to roll his Intelligence against
a Force of 4 to see her.

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."
Message no. 5
From: Arcady arcady@***.net
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 15:55:43 +700
>>>He also has 55 points of Spells and 4 pts of bonded foci. I didn't look
>>>through equipment in-depth, but that's a lot of money for spell pts (like

>>>24 extras, so 600K). He also has no lifestyle, and no vehicles, so
>>>nowhere to store his LMGs and miniguns.
>
>Too many points. Isn't the limit 50?

Hmmm... I didn't catch that but I believe that's correct.

>Make him take the priority system; it'll limit his munchkin options.
>Or do what I do to players who threaten to quit: hand them a bag of
>kitty litter and tell them it's for the next time they wanna use the
>bathroom.

Oh he hasn't threatened to quit. It's more like I'm expecting him to. He's "expressed
his frustration" at my unwillingness to give in. We exchanged about 4 emails
over 2 day earlier this week with my messages being "stick to +/-6 on
edges/flaws"
and his being "Ok, I'm down to X now and that's just Y over 6 and I think I'm
being very reasonable here so you should just give it to me."

Last night after typing his character in and noting a few numbers flaws I pointed
this out and got a reply that read as very exasperated (sp?).

I may try the suggestion of redesigning his character for him and showing my
design. I think I know what 'kind' of person he wants to play. And I honestly
believe there's a non-munchkin concept in there that he just doesn't know how
to de-munchkinize after years of playing a game where-in power is everything
(AD&D) to the average group that plays it.

If he was trying to be a pure munchkin he would have realized how crippling
the Int score will be on some of his magic attempts and how badly the Cha will
hurt his contacts. Maybe. I'm being hopeful here. :)

Looks like I've got a lot of work before tonight's game (in 3 hours). :) And
I still have to do the stats of the 'evil blood cult initiate and his minions
followers'. :)
Message no. 6
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 1999 23:16:28 -0400
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
>] Waitaminute, so spells over Force 6, period? (This is a question
I've
>] been meaning to ask.) Or Force 6 before modifications (shaman or
>] otherwise)? Can I say, have a Dragonslayer Shaman with an fetish
>] limited Force 10 Manaball, or is he limited to a Force9 (due to
>] Shamanic modifier)?
>
> Whoa there...totem modifiers don't increase the Force of the spell,
>they add dice. Big difference. Likewise, Exclusive and Fetish
limited
>spells aren't more powerful, you resist Drain as if they were _less_
>powerful. Examples:
>
> Billy casts a Force 5 Stunball spell, his favourite bit o' mojo.
>Normally, his Magic rating being 3, Billy would have to resist
Physical
>Drain, as his spell's Force is higher than his Magic. He learned the
>spell as Exclusive, though, so when he casts it at Force 5, he
resists
>Drain as if he had cast at Force 3 (5, -2 for being Exclusive), and
>therefore resists Stun damage. The target has to resist the full
Force
>of 5 (WHOMP!).
>
> Heather (Magic 7, Sorcery 6), a Bison (NOT Buffalo) shaman, casts
an
>Invisibility spell on herself. She whips it off at Force 4, but
>because Bison's about as sneaky as a front-end loader (-1 to Illusion
>spells), she only rolls 5 dice instead of her usual 6. The security
>guard who's...uh...guarding, still has to roll his Intelligence
against
>a Force of 4 to see her.


OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
(and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
divided as Power Foci?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 7
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 02:08:21 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
] OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
] (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
] Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
] divided as Power Foci?

This is actually quite a good question...I dunno. I'd assume they
are used for both. Question being, do you get the totem modifiers for
other magic tests, like learning spells, resisting spells, etc?

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."
Message no. 8
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 01:31:24 -0400
On 4 Aug 99, at 23:16, Angelkiller 404 wrote:

> OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
> (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
> Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be divided
> as Power Foci?

Basically adds to Sorcery Pool for that spell. Divide as you
will.

---
You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can
rejoice because thorns have roses.
-- Ziggy - the cartoon character


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 9
From: The Hamm ljvance@*******.edu
Subject: British Giant
Date: Wed, 04 Aug 1999 22:34:01 -0700
At 02:08 AM 8/5/99 -0300, you wrote:
>"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Angelkiller 404."
>] OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
>] (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
>] Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
>] divided as Power Foci?
>
> This is actually quite a good question...I dunno. I'd assume they
>are used for both. Question being, do you get the totem modifiers for
>other magic tests, like learning spells, resisting spells, etc?
>
>-Murder of One

The bonus dice are an addition to your magic pool. It does not add to any
specific test. You allocate them like your pool to whichever test you like.

-The Hamm
"Get in line so I can woop all your asses."
-Chef, from South Park
Message no. 10
From: Scott Wheelock iscottw@*****.nb.ca
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 05 Aug 1999 03:26:38 -0300
"And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Darrell L. Bowman."
] > OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
] > (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
] > Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be divided
] > as Power Foci?
]
] Basically adds to Sorcery Pool for that spell. Divide as you
] will.

I know this was the case in 2nd Ed., but is it so in 3rd? I thought
it just added dice to the test, not the Spell Pool.

-Murder of One

To: All Employees
From: Human Resources
Subject: Short Term Disability benefit plan
-------------------------------------------------------------
"We are pleased to make available to you an
additional opportunity to enroll in the Voluntary
STD benefit option."
Message no. 11
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 02:17:00 -0400
>>] OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman
before
>>] (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward
BOTH
>>] Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
>>] divided as Power Foci?
>>
>> This is actually quite a good question...I dunno. I'd assume they
>>are used for both. Question being, do you get the totem modifiers
for
>>other magic tests, like learning spells, resisting spells, etc?
>>
>>-Murder of One
>
>The bonus dice are an addition to your magic pool. It does not add
to any
>specific test. You allocate them like your pool to whichever test
you like.
>
>-The Hamm


Just so I'm not taking a really liberal interpretation of this:

A Wolf Shaman has +2 Dice to Combat spells. Is this +2 Dice a flat
rate, like +2 to the Sorcery Test, then +2 to the Drain Test, or does
she get 2 Dice to play around with every time she casts Combat Spells?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 12
From: Number Ten Ox number_10_ox@**********.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 06:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
> Just so I'm not taking a really liberal interpretation of this:
> A Wolf Shaman has +2 Dice to Combat spells. Is this +2 Dice a flat
> rate, like +2 to the Sorcery Test, then +2 to the Drain Test, or does
> she get 2 Dice to play around with every time she casts Combat Spells?

The Wolf Shaman gets 2 extra dice to play around with every time she
casts a combat spell. She could add them both to Sorcery dice or to Drain
dice or allocate one to each, as she wishes.

--Number 10.
_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 13
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:06:30 -0400
On 5 Aug 99, at 2:17, Angelkiller 404 wrote:

> Just so I'm not taking a really liberal interpretation of this:
>
> A Wolf Shaman has +2 Dice to Combat spells. Is this +2 Dice a flat
> rate, like +2 to the Sorcery Test, then +2 to the Drain Test, or does she
> get 2 Dice to play around with every time she casts Combat Spells?

Two die to play around with for combat spells.

---
I will confess that I look forward to the day when we
have cleansed the universe of the Centauri and carved
their bones into little flutes for Narn children.
It is a dream I have.
--G'kar, Babylon 5: Midnight on the Firing Line


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 14
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 10:51:37 -0400
On 5 Aug 99, at 3:26, Scott Wheelock wrote:

> "And now, a Channel 6 editorial reply to Darrell L. Bowman."
> ] > OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
> ] > (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
> ] > Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
> ] > divided as Power Foci?
> ]
> ] Basically adds to Sorcery Pool for that spell. Divide as you
> ] will.
>
> I know this was the case in 2nd Ed., but is it so in 3rd? I thought it
> just added dice to the test, not the Spell Pool.

Ye know Scott, now that you said that, I went back to the
book to look. P.163 of SR3 under Totem Modifiers says,

"A shaman gains bonus dice when using Sorcery or Conjuring
according to the totem's ideals. The shaman may also lose
dice when using magical skills outside the totem's realm.
These bonuses and penalties are called totem modifiers. They
add or subtract from the final number of dice rolled for a
particular test, but do not otherwise modify the shaman's skill
ratings."

It doesn't say a fraggin' thing about spell pool. While it doesn't
come right out and say it, I would now say I was wrong. I
would infer that because it says "gains bonus dice when using
Sorcery or Conjuring," and it doesn't say that it can be used
for spell pool, I'd say it's for the spell casting test only.

---
Always carry plenty of ammo, watch your back,
and never, ever, deal with a dragon.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 15
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: British Giant
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 01:41:09 +1000
At 02:17 5/08/99 -0400, Angelkiller 404 wrote:
> >>] OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
> >>] (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
> >>] Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
> >>] divided as Power Foci?
> >>
> >> This is actually quite a good question...I dunno. I'd assume they
> >>are used for both. Question being, do you get the totem modifiers for
> >>other magic tests, like learning spells, resisting spells, etc?
> >
> >The bonus dice are an addition to your magic pool. It does not add to any
> >specific test. You allocate them like your pool to whichever test you like.
>
>Just so I'm not taking a really liberal interpretation of this:
>A Wolf Shaman has +2 Dice to Combat spells. Is this +2 Dice a flat
>rate, like +2 to the Sorcery Test, then +2 to the Drain Test, or does
>she get 2 Dice to play around with every time she casts Combat Spells?

Let me pipe in here with my reading of the SR3 rules.

Firstly, from what the book says, the totem modifiers are applied only to
the success test, not to the drain test. This really doesn't penalize drain
since the other dice involved in Conjuring and Sorcery can be moved around
for extra drain resistance dice if needed e.g. Conjuring dice can be
allocated to conjuring drain resistance from the conjuring test and extra
Spell Pool dice can be allocated for spell drain resistance in a sorcery test.

Secondly, totem modifiers, whether bonuses or penalties, apply to every
test. They are not like the spell pool in that they are not used up or
refresh over a turn but apply to every test no matter whether there is one
test or many tests in the turn. For this reason, it's better not to
associate totem bonus dice with spell pool. As an example, a shaman of
Raccoon casts three Manipulation spells in three actions over a single turn
(he's fast). Every time, the shaman receives two bonus dice for each
Manipulation spell casting success test. If, on the other hand, the shaman
had cast three Combat spells in his three actions over the single turn,
every one of these Combat spell casting tests would lose one die.


Chris
Message no. 16
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 18:00:32 -0400
Angelkiller asked:
> OK, another stupid question, because I've never played a Shaman before
> (and this is a reason why). Does the totem modifiers go toward BOTH
> Sorcery and Drain tests, or just one or the other, or can they be
> divided as Power Foci?

Just like power foci.

:)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 17
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:37:50 -0400
On 6 Aug 99, at 1:41, Chris Maxfield wrote:

> Firstly, from what the book says, the totem modifiers are applied only to
> the success test, not to the drain test. This really doesn't penalize
> drain since the other dice involved in Conjuring and Sorcery can be moved
> around for extra drain resistance dice if needed e.g. Conjuring dice can
> be allocated to conjuring drain resistance from the conjuring test and
> extra Spell Pool dice can be allocated for spell drain resistance in a
> sorcery test.

Huh?? They can? Where does it say that? I missed it.


---
I can see that you have a lot to unlearn.
If you are talking about my vulgar instinct for survival,
forget it.
--Hugi; Corwin, Prince of Amber,
The Courts of Chaos, by Roger Zelazny


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 18
From: Angelkiller 404 angelkiller404@**********.com
Subject: British Giant
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 1999 23:14:44 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: Darrell L. Bowman <darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: Thursday, August 05, 1999 10:05 AM
Subject: Re: British Giant


On 5 Aug 99, at 2:17, Angelkiller 404 wrote:

> Just so I'm not taking a really liberal interpretation of this:
>
> A Wolf Shaman has +2 Dice to Combat spells. Is this +2 Dice a flat
> rate, like +2 to the Sorcery Test, then +2 to the Drain Test, or
does she
> get 2 Dice to play around with every time she casts Combat Spells?

Two die to play around with for combat spells.


OK, lemme rephrase that again. Wolf Shaman has 2 extra dice for
Combat Spells. He decides to toss a Powerball Force 6, no Spell Pool,
but tosses in his free dice for the Sorcery Test. Then he has to
check for drain against that Combat Spell. Do those two free Dice
refresh (+2 Dice for Combat Spells), or is he stuck with just the
normal amount of dice (sans the 2 Dice)?

-----
AK404

http://mindspring.com/~angelkiller404/
http://gibbed.com/parasiteve/
ICQ: 2157053

"There are hardly any excesses of the most crazed psychopath that
cannot easily be duplicated by a normal kindly family man who just
comes in to work every day and has a job to do."
Message no. 19
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: British Giant
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 19:11:29 +1000
At 23:37 5/08/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
>On 6 Aug 99, at 1:41, Chris Maxfield wrote:
> > Firstly, from what the book says, the totem modifiers are applied only to
> > the success test, not to the drain test. This really doesn't penalize
> > drain since the other dice involved in Conjuring and Sorcery can be moved
> > around for extra drain resistance dice if needed e.g. Conjuring dice can
> > be allocated to conjuring drain resistance from the conjuring test and
> > extra Spell Pool dice can be allocated for spell drain resistance in a
> > sorcery test.
>
>Huh?? They can? Where does it say that? I missed it.

For conjuring, look under the headings Summoning Nature Spirits and
Summoning Elementals on page 186. In both sections it states that conjuring
dice may be held in reserve to help resist drain.


Chris
Message no. 20
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: British Giant
Date: Fri, 06 Aug 1999 19:20:58 +1000
At 23:14 5/08/99 -0400, Angelkiller 404 wrote:
>OK, lemme rephrase that again. Wolf Shaman has 2 extra dice for
>Combat Spells. He decides to toss a Powerball Force 6, no Spell Pool,
>but tosses in his free dice for the Sorcery Test. Then he has to
>check for drain against that Combat Spell. Do those two free Dice
>refresh (+2 Dice for Combat Spells), or is he stuck with just the
>normal amount of dice (sans the 2 Dice)?

+2 dice for the spell casting test only, every time. The drain is sans
totem dice.

Think of totem penalties instead of bonuses. Penalties and bonuses must
follow the same mechanics. For a totem penalty, there's no talk of a pool
of -1 die. No talk of when this negative pool refreshes. It's understood
that it's a permanent modifier - always applicable. Further; there's no
talk of whether the -1 die applies to both casting and drain. For a penalty
it seems pretty straight forward that it applies to the spell casting test
only and not drain. The same applies to any totem bonuses as well.


Chris
Message no. 21
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 01:45:51 -0400
On 6 Aug 99, at 19:11, Chris Maxfield wrote:

> > > penalize drain since the other dice involved in Conjuring and Sorcery
> > > can be moved around for extra drain resistance dice if needed e.g.
> > > Conjuring dice can be allocated to conjuring drain resistance from the
> > > conjuring test and extra Spell Pool dice can be allocated for spell
> > > drain resistance in a sorcery test.
> >
> >Huh?? They can? Where does it say that? I missed it.
>
> For conjuring, look under the headings Summoning Nature Spirits and
> Summoning Elementals on page 186. In both sections it states that
> conjuring dice may be held in reserve to help resist drain.

Okay, I saw that under Conjuring, but I looked under Sorcery,
and didn't see any reference to being able to do that.

---
No I don't mind if you smoke, in fact after I've shot
you 8 or 9 times I'd expect you to smoke quite a bit.
-- Smilin' Jack to a woman sharing an elevator car.


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 22
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: British Giant
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 00:29:44 +1000
At 01:45 7/08/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
>Okay, I saw that under Conjuring, but I looked under Sorcery,
>and didn't see any reference to being able to do that.

I did not mean that new spell pool dice could be manufactured out of
nowhere. What I was referring to, in the Sorcery bit, was that since totem
bonuses only add to the spell casting test, if help is required for drain
then just move some of the spell pool dice allocated to spell casting
across to the drain test. The unspoken implication I was using was that
spell pool dice had been allocated to both the spell casting test and the
drain test. Because spell pool can be moved around like this, an inability
to use totem bonuses for drain is not much of a limitation.


Chris
Message no. 23
From: Darrell L. Bowman darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Subject: British Giant
Date: Sat, 7 Aug 1999 21:31:04 -0400
On 8 Aug 99, at 0:29, Chris Maxfield wrote:

> At 01:45 7/08/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
> >Okay, I saw that under Conjuring, but I looked under Sorcery,
> >and didn't see any reference to being able to do that.
>
> I did not mean that new spell pool dice could be manufactured out of
> nowhere. What I was referring to, in the Sorcery bit, was that since totem
> bonuses only add to the spell casting test, if help is required for drain
> then just move some of the spell pool dice allocated to spell casting
> across to the drain test. The unspoken implication I was using was that
> spell pool dice had been allocated to both the spell casting test and the
> drain test. Because spell pool can be moved around like this, an inability
> to use totem bonuses for drain is not much of a limitation.

Okay,.. spell pool can be moved around, yeah, but the
implication that I got from you was that you could move
Sorcery dice, and you can't. Yes, you can not use any spell
pool for casting and use it all for drain, but you can't in
addition to that move Sorcery dice over to drain like you can
conjuring. Okay. I got it.

---
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population
by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the
Universe than the need for freedom. Against that power,
governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once; we will teach it to
them again. Though it take a thousand years,
we will be free.
-- G'Kar, Babylon 5: The Long, Twilight Struggle


Nightshade, Human Racoon Shaman
or
Raven, Elven Irish Rigger with an attitude.

Darrell Bowman
darrell@******.dhr.state.nc.us
Message no. 24
From: Chris Maxfield cmaxfiel@****.org.au
Subject: British Giant
Date: Sun, 08 Aug 1999 12:16:29 +1000
At 21:31 7/08/99 -0400, Darrell L. Bowman wrote:
>Okay,.. spell pool can be moved around, yeah, but the
>implication that I got from you was that you could move
>Sorcery dice, and you can't. Yes, you can not use any spell
>pool for casting and use it all for drain, but you can't in
>addition to that move Sorcery dice over to drain like you can
>conjuring. Okay. I got it.

Ah, I see. I wasn't clear enough about what dice I was referring to when I
used the phrase "other dice". I only ever meant spell pool as the other
dice in sorcery tests. I agree absolutely that Sorcery dice cannot be
allocated to drain resistance. :-)


Chris

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