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From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:37:35 -0700

Message no. 1 Paul J. Adam wrote:
/
/ Basically the SR rules for Big Guns are broken as far as reality is
/ concerned.

Nope, the rules for damage and armor are broken.

I don't know if I can explain this because there are a lot of factors
involved.

First, SR's damage system is representational. It's based off of
doing damage to a human target. So when a Predator is rated at a 9M
that means that it has a pretty good chance of doing moderate damage
to a human. A a vehicle is much tougher than a human, but SR doesn't
adequately deal with that. The shot from a Predator still has a base
of 9M.

Which leads to the damage track. It's nice to say that a Moderate
wound a Moderate wound, but something that does Moderate damage to a
child won't do Moderate damage to a Troll and it certainly won't do
Moderate damage to a main battle tank. I hate to say it, but a hit
point system is the way to go (Champions has the best simple system,
IMO).

SR's armor doesn't stop bullets or absorb damage, which is what
happens in RL. SR armor adjusts the odds of a target taking damage,
which is not the same thing.

And overall, SR's damage sysem is centered around luck. With lower
ratings it's not so apperant. But when any of the ratings start to
increase is when things get skewed.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
--
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:58:54 -0500

Message no. 2 David Buehrer writes:
> Paul J. Adam wrote:
> /
> / Basically the SR rules for Big Guns are broken as far as reality is
> / concerned.
>
> Nope, the rules for damage and armor are broken.
>
> I don't know if I can explain this because there are a lot of factors
> involved.
>
> First, SR's damage system is representational. It's based off of
> doing damage to a human target. So when a Predator is rated at a 9M
> that means that it has a pretty good chance of doing moderate damage
> to a human. A a vehicle is much tougher than a human, but SR doesn't
> adequately deal with that. The shot from a Predator still has a base
> of 9M.
>
> Which leads to the damage track. It's nice to say that a Moderate
> wound a Moderate wound, but something that does Moderate damage to a
> child won't do Moderate damage to a Troll and it certainly won't do
> Moderate damage to a main battle tank. I hate to say it, but a hit
> point system is the way to go (Champions has the best simple system,
> IMO).
>
> SR's armor doesn't stop bullets or absorb damage, which is what
> happens in RL. SR armor adjusts the odds of a target taking damage,
> which is not the same thing.
>
> And overall, SR's damage sysem is centered around luck. With lower
> ratings it's not so apperant. But when any of the ratings start to
> increase is when things get skewed.
>
Very true. It's also one the hardest thing to fix, because when
your try to adjust say armor, it breaks something else.
I'll second the comment on champions, you can play combat
fast, and it works well. I have no idea how I would being
to incorporate that in SR though. I'm not sure HP (as in AD&D)
would work either. You almost have to rebuild it from scratch
with a totally different base. Ick..I'll stick with it
for now. Besides my guys usually fireball cars, or shoot
them with Assault Cannons, almost never predators. But these
guys have subtlelty down to an art form. (NOT).

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The nice thing about standards,is there are so many to choose from.

From:	Frank Pelletier <jeanpell@****.IVIC.QC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:04:46 +0000

Message no. 3 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG> once wrote,

> First, SR's damage system is representational. It's based off of
> doing damage to a human target. So when a Predator is rated at a 9M
> that means that it has a pretty good chance of doing moderate damage
> to a human. A a vehicle is much tougher than a human, but SR doesn't
> adequately deal with that. The shot from a Predator still has a base
> of 9M.

Agreed....Unfortunatly, the way to fix this is to either use your Hit
location system (well thought out, but need a little tinkering), or use
Megadamage rules a la Rifts.

> Which leads to the damage track. It's nice to say that a Moderate
> wound a Moderate wound, but something that does Moderate damage to a
> child won't do Moderate damage to a Troll and it certainly won't do
> Moderate damage to a main battle tank. I hate to say it, but a hit
> point system is the way to go (Champions has the best simple system,
> IMO).

I disagree... The relative toughness of individuals is already
compensated in the form of attributes. Your troll has a much higher body
than a baby, and will withstand much more punishment. Of course, looking
at it that way, we can see that a troll has a higher body than a Banshee
T-bird... another proof that vehicle scaling is a real problem in SR.

> SR's armor doesn't stop bullets or absorb damage, which is what
> happens in RL. SR armor adjusts the odds of a target taking damage,
> which is not the same thing.

Hmm.... I remember the old armor rules of 1st edition BBB. I remember how
anyone in light milspec could shrug off most blasts with ease. SR2 has
made combat a lot deadlier, and that's great. SR was supposed to be dark
and gritty.

> And overall, SR's damage sysem is centered around luck. With lower
> ratings it's not so apperant. But when any of the ratings start to
> increase is when things get skewed.

This comes back down, again, to Vehicle scaling. I really think SR needs
a better vehicle damage system. R2 didn't solve anything. On the
contrary, it made things worse, by lowering the body rating of some
chassis, making them weak as toys.

Trinity
------------------------------------------------------
Frank Pelletier
Trinity@********.com, jeanpell@****.qc.ca

"Life is a blur"

From:	David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:16:41 -0700

Message no. 4 Lehlan Decker wrote:
/
/ David Buehrer writes:
/ > Paul J. Adam wrote:
/ > /
/ > / Basically the SR rules for Big Guns are broken as far as reality is
/ > / concerned.
/ >
/ > Nope, the rules for damage and armor are broken.
/ >
/ Very true. It's also one the hardest thing to fix, because when
/ your try to adjust say armor, it breaks something else.
/ I'll second the comment on champions, you can play combat
/ fast, and it works well. I have no idea how I would being
/ to incorporate that in SR though. I'm not sure HP (as in AD&D)
/ would work either. You almost have to rebuild it from scratch
/ with a totally different base. Ick..I'll stick with it
/ for now. Besides my guys usually fireball cars, or shoot
/ them with Assault Cannons, almost never predators. But these
/ guys have subtlelty down to an art form. (NOT).

I wouldn't recommend going to a hit point system. Defining hit
points for people is easy. Defining them for vehicles is a little
trickier, but doable. It's deciding damage for all the weapons
that's going to fry your brain though.

I think I've thought of an easy fix though (well, this is as easy as
it gets). Classify targets, weapons and armor by type. Instead of
using multipliers, halve the effectiveness of the attack or damage
resistance for each difference of Type level. So, if you're shooting
at an armored (Type II armor) security vehicle (Type II target) with
an Predator (Type I), halve the effectiveness of the Predator (the
Power drops from 9 to 4, the damage code drops from M to L). Now
subtract the vehicle's armor from the Power of the Predator and roll
Body to resist damage. If it was a Predator vs a main battle tank
(Type III Armor, Type II Body) the Predator's Power code would be
halved twice (9 to 4 to 2). And the Body halved once (M to L). If
the MBT attacks a Sam (Type I Armor:4, Type I Body:9) with it's main
gun (Type III Weapon) the Sam's armor and body would be halved twice
(Body 9 to 4 to 2, Armor 4 to 2 to 1) before he resisted the damage.

It's not pretty, but it works fairly quickly and gets the job done.
And it's a fairly easy judgement call to make when there's a
difference of Type.

Or if you want to take the easy route, just halve the effectiveness
of all standard (non anti-vehicle) weapons vs vehicles and halve the
defense of standard targets when attacked by anti-vehicle weapons.

-David
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep." --
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

From:	Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:06:45 -0500

Message no. 5 David Buehrer writes:
> Lehlan Decker wrote:
> /
> / Very true. It's also one the hardest thing to fix, because when
> / your try to adjust say armor, it breaks something else.
> / I'll second the comment on champions, you can play combat
> / fast, and it works well. I have no idea how I would being
> / to incorporate that in SR though. I'm not sure HP (as in AD&D)
> / would work either. You almost have to rebuild it from scratch
> / with a totally different base. Ick..I'll stick with it
> / for now. Besides my guys usually fireball cars, or shoot
> / them with Assault Cannons, almost never predators. But these
> / guys have subtlelty down to an art form. (NOT).
>
> I wouldn't recommend going to a hit point system. Defining hit
> points for people is easy. Defining them for vehicles is a little
> trickier, but doable. It's deciding damage for all the weapons
> that's going to fry your brain though.
>
> I think I've thought of an easy fix though (well, this is as easy as
> it gets). Classify targets, weapons and armor by type. Instead of
> using multipliers, halve the effectiveness of the attack or damage
> resistance for each difference of Type level. So, if you're shooting
> at an armored (Type II armor) security vehicle (Type II target) with
> an Predator (Type I), halve the effectiveness of the Predator (the
> Power drops from 9 to 4, the damage code drops from M to L). Now
> subtract the vehicle's armor from the Power of the Predator and roll
> Body to resist damage. If it was a Predator vs a main battle tank
> (Type III Armor, Type II Body) the Predator's Power code would be
> halved twice (9 to 4 to 2). And the Body halved once (M to L). If
> the MBT attacks a Sam (Type I Armor:4, Type I Body:9) with it's main
> gun (Type III Weapon) the Sam's armor and body would be halved twice
> (Body 9 to 4 to 2, Armor 4 to 2 to 1) before he resisted the damage.
>
> It's not pretty, but it works fairly quickly and gets the job done.
> And it's a fairly easy judgement call to make when there's a
> difference of Type.
>
> Or if you want to take the easy route, just halve the effectiveness
> of all standard (non anti-vehicle) weapons vs vehicles and halve the
> defense of standard targets when attacked by anti-vehicle weapons.
>
That might work. When dealing with vehicles anyway. Still doesn't
fix the whole light pistol heavy pistol etc problems. But hey...
no game is perfect. Besides if I wanted realism, I probably
wouldn't be doing this in the first place. :)

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The nice thing about standards,is there are so many to choose from.

From:	lucifer <lucifer@*******.COM>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:42:22 -0600

Message no. 6 David Buehrer wrote:

<snip>
>
> Which leads to the damage track. It's nice to say that a Moderate
> wound a Moderate wound, but something that does Moderate damage to a
> child won't do Moderate damage to a Troll and it certainly won't do
> Moderate damage to a main battle tank. I hate to say it, but a hit
> point system is the way to go (Champions has the best simple system,
> IMO).
>
<snip>

However that's what variables like body dice are for. If the base power =
is 9 and the base damage
is M, that's reasonable. When your variables come in is when the Troll =
has a body of 11 and the
child has a body of 2. But I do agree about the vehicles. They should spl=
it gun damage to
vehicles into armored and unarmored vehicles. I think that would make mor=
e sense and be more effective.

Lucifer
Prince of Darkness, Eater of Souls

"One owes respect to the living. To the Dead one owes
only Truth."--Voltaire

"When devils will the blackest sins put on, they
do suggest at first with heavenly shows."--Shakespeare,
from 'Othello'

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Broken Damage
Date:	Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:43:55 +0100

Message no. 7 Frank Pelletier said on 14:04/ 7 Nov 97...

> > SR's armor doesn't stop bullets or absorb damage, which is what
> > happens in RL. SR armor adjusts the odds of a target taking damage,
> > which is not the same thing.
>
> Hmm.... I remember the old armor rules of 1st edition BBB. I remember how
> anyone in light milspec could shrug off most blasts with ease.

There was no milspec armor in SR1, since those were introduced in FoF...
:) Also, in SRII people in milspec armor shrug off attacks even easier
than someone in a full suit heavy armor in SR1, because milspec armor will
never be penetrated by attacks whose Power Level doens't exceed the armor
rating...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Would it make you feel much better, if it was you against the world?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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