Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: "J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject: b/r skills
Date: Fri, 8 Jul 1994 15:42:22 +0100
Can you b/r a weapon from a tool? can you use a unattached
cyberarm s spurs as a weapon?
<CHOP> GM call! yes in my book

<CHOP> a rigger with B/R Robot saved my life...two man silent
assault, elven hitter(me) and a rigger/tech as backup.
We go in under cover of a staged 'car crash' outside the
building. First sublevel easy...then the special projects level,
where things got tricky.
We activate thermal masking linings in our street clothes (Slick
had overalls, me a suit and breifcase. All clothes had armour
inserts and thermal sneak capability. Tools and firepower wear
in the breifcase, vac sealed inside plastic bags so as not to
set off sniffers) And procede into the level.
Motion sensors picked up guards movement, and an optical
periscope (eyepeice+fibreoptic round the corner bit)lets us see
them coming.
The guards had Partial Heavy and a bodymount MINIGUN...they also
watch BOTH ways,into and out of the instalation.
Our information showed the firepower was to keep something from
breaking out...but we we'nt after that.
The guards died.one lost his head to a monowhip used round a
corner, the other caught a Supressed 3rd AP burst in the faceplate.
The backup, a robot with a built in minigun, came for us. Slick
was in cover, I put a hose of AP at the thing, but SMG vs Robot
armour is no fight.I catch a burst before i can hit cover.
Deadly+4 in one Hit. OUCH.
As it moves to cover the corridor, Slick uses B/R robot6 to pull
the power to its legs as it moves past him...it falls and he
pulls its plug perminantly with a powerdrill.
Fall back to the lift and get AWAY in the remoted getaway car.
B/R skills are lifesavers.
CHOPPER
Gliss the Elf lives.
Message no. 2
From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: B/R Skills
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 14:10:57 +1000
OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has to
do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own radio,
but at the same time not understanding what the resistor actually
does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me that there
is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else do/think about
this situation?

NightRain.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, |
| and whatever happens, you will not be missed |
----------------------------------------------------------------------

http://nightrain.home.ml.org

EMAIL : nightrain@***.brisnet.org.au
: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
ICQ : 2587947
Message no. 3
From: Pantherr <taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:21:09 +0000
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

> OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has
> to do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
> This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
> for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
> include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
> knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own
> radio, but at the same time not understanding what the resistor
> actually does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me
> that there is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else
> do/think about this situation?

Personally, I'd say that yeah, Electronics = Electronics B/R and vice
versa. Unless you count Electronics as *designing* electronics
components and the B/R skill as actually building/fixing them.

Pantherr

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP for Personal Privacy 5.0
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNZRzNcHD+ufgrUEHEQJU8gCfUa7wEcBHjw/xHIAyxfOOCOqhu80An2Ex
udtWxM3dDQqQHz7YT0P8FqjG
=hTjn
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
A lifetime spent repressing our animal natures and instincts is a lifetime wasted
--
Furry Code 1.3
FFPw3a/FJhmp4rA->+C->+DH-MPR+T+++W->WZ->ZSm++
RL#/TH*acn>a++d+e>+++f->+h*>+++(++)iw+j>+p+>++sm#
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 01:34:53 -0500
On Fri, 26 Jun 1998 23:21:09 +0000 Pantherr
<taslehof@*****.INTERNETLAND.NET> writes:
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>Hash: SHA1
>> OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has
>> to do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
>> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
>> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
>> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
>> This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
>> for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
>> include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
>> knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own
>> radio, but at the same time not understanding what the resistor
>> actually does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me
>> that there is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else
>> do/think about this situation?

>Personally, I'd say that yeah, Electronics = Electronics B/R and vice
>versa. Unless you count Electronics as *designing* electronics
>components and the B/R skill as actually building/fixing them.
>
>Pantherr
<SNIP>

I see it differently ...

Electronics is using that Magloc Passkey to scam the lock.
Electronics B/R is cracking open the lock w/o setting off the alarms and
hardwiring a bypass.

Electronics is programming your VCR
Electronics B/R is fixing your VCR

Just my opinion and yours may vary :)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 5
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:24:08 +0100
Pantherr said on 23:21/26 Jun 98,...

> Personally, I'd say that yeah, Electronics = Electronics B/R and vice
> versa. Unless you count Electronics as *designing* electronics
> components and the B/R skill as actually building/fixing them.

That's what I usually do. Opening a maglock is an Electronics B/R
test, same as installing such a maglock. Designing a maglock
would be an Electronics test, OTOH.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 12:24:08 +0100
NightRain said on 14:10/27 Jun 98,...

> OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has to
> do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
> This is applicable to nearly any situation.

I tend to see Electronics as the theoretical skill, that'll allow you
to design electronic equipment, whereas Electronics B/R is the
ability to wield a soldering iron :)

> I would also think that
> for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
> include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
> knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own radio,
> but at the same time not understanding what the resistor actually
> does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me that there
> is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else do/think about
> this situation?

You're forgetting one thing: there's only one dot between them,
so if a character has Electronics, it's not all that hard to use
Electronics B/R skill by defaulting to the Electronics skill. Same
thing the other way around: you have Electronics B/R, and to
determine what a piece of stuff you're soldering into your home-
built radio does, you default to Electronics.

And I can also think of people who have Electronics B/R but
probably don't know what half the things they're putting together
actually do, let alone how they work: assembly line workers who
make all the CD players, radios, TVs, and so on we use every day.
All they really need to know is that this goes there and you apply
the solder here.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Refusing to be classified.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 7
From: Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:53:21 -0600
At 01:34 27/06/98 -0500, you wrote:

>Electronics is programming your VCR
>Electronics B/R is fixing your VCR

A skill to program your VCR? Sheah, right. Even my MOTHER can do that.

Intelligence would be better for that, I think. >:)

Electronics is knowing how your VCR works.
Electronics B/R is knowing how to fix it when it does't work.

-Adam
-
http://www.interware.it/users/adamj \ fro@***.ab.ca \ ICQ# 2350330
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader \ FreeRPG Webring \ TSS Productions
The Shadowrun Supplemental \ SR Archive Co-Maintainer \ RPGA Reviwer
"And you know why these (Independent) movies are good? Because they come
from Bumblefuck, America." -- Kevin Smith.
Message no. 8
From: AlSeyMer <AdSM@******.BE>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 16:38:13 +0200
NightRain wrote:
>
> OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has to
> do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
> This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
> for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
> include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
> knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own radio,
> but at the same time not understanding what the resistor actually
> does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me that there
> is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else do/think about
> this situation?
> (snip)

I got the same kind of problem when the programming rules were not yet
available. A player had the wonderful idea to make his own softwares (to
evade paying the cost :-), so i told him to develop a Computer
(software) B/R, hoping to find a way to fix this situation while he was
building karma. (I know it's not fair, I reread the computer skill
description, and allowed him to use Computer (software) [Programming].)
A few time later, another player had to break into a locked room, a key
locked one, and, as he was the rigger, he presumed he could use his Car
B/R to tinker with the lock, to do it silently (not the usual troll or
Predator sesame i had seen since then).
Then, the mage wanted to make his own jewelry, and asked me how he
could do that.

As the B/R rules were full of holes, i decided to authorize a general
B/R skill, like Athletics which also covers a lot of different
activities, that can be concentrated in any other general skill, and
specialized in any other concentrated skill.
If the normal skill include some B/R capacities, like Computer which can
be used for programming/building software, to make a B/R concentration
of it is without object.

For electronics, IMHO, i would say that it covers the normal use of
object having electronics in them and rudimentary knowledges on how it
works, and B/R covers the tinkering side. Something like Physical
sciences (Engineering or Physics) would give a better answer on why it
works.
However, in the case of maglocks, i would say that either the skill is
properly named and really useful for maglockmakers, either it's not
properly labeled as it's mainly used in defeating maglocks, and so is
mainly concerned not with the proper operation of maglock but with the
operation of the tools used to defeat them. In this case, you have to
determine what the Electronics (Maglocks) B/R is for.
So, to defeat a maglock, i would use either Electronics, eventually with
the maglock concentration, B/R to pry it open and play with the cables,
either Electronics, maybe something like the Universal Maglock Pass
concentration, to plug a false card in it, and try to find the right
signal to make it open the door.

That's only the way i see it.

AlSeyMer
Message no. 9
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:05:46 -0500
On Sat, 27 Jun 1998 19:53:21 -0600 Adam J <fro@***.AB.CA> writes:
>At 01:34 27/06/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Electronics is programming your VCR
>>Electronics B/R is fixing your VCR

>A skill to program your VCR? Sheah, right. Even my MOTHER can do that.
>
>Intelligence would be better for that, I think. >:)

With our first VCR, it didn't mater if YOU knew how to program it ... the
*VCR* didn't know how to program it ... I programmed the VCR to tape
stuff and all I got was a blank tape ... :( ... Haven't tried the new
one ...

>Electronics is knowing how your VCR works.
>Electronics B/R is knowing how to fix it when it does't work.
>
>-Adam
<SNIP Sig>

I was under the impression that for each such pairing, one skill let you
use / operate something normally, and another let you fix /build it

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 10
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:14:54 +1000
D. Ghost writes:
> Electronics is programming your VCR
> Electronics B/R is fixing your VCR

No, that's Cybertechnology (B/R), not Electronics...

(Anyone else scan that as Vehicle Control Rig first?)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 11
From: Robert Watkins <robert.watkins@******.COM>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:24:05 +1000
NightRain writes:
> OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has to
> do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
> This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
> for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
> include the theoretical knowledge as well.

In my game, the skills would divide like this:

Someone with Electronics (B/R) would know how to follow a circuit diagram,
wield a soldering iron, install chips, and so forth. They could build a
radio if someone gave them a plan, but would be hard pressed to know how to
design one from scratch. Working out which wire to cut in an unknown device,
such as a maglock, would be beyond the scope of Electronics (B/R) (hence the
Electronics test), while actually cutting it without disturbing anything
else fits in nicely.

Electronics, OTH, would allow someone to design a nice, theoretical, radio
but they wouldn't be able to use a soldering iron without setting their hair
on fire. :) Except by defaulting, of course.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it binds
the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 12
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Sun, 28 Jun 1998 20:16:19 -0600
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
/
/ I see it differently ...
/
/ Electronics is using that Magloc Passkey to scam the lock.
/ Electronics B/R is cracking open the lock w/o setting off the alarms and
/ hardwiring a bypass.
/
/ Electronics is programming your VCR
/ Electronics B/R is fixing your VCR
/
/ Just my opinion and yours may vary :)

I view it the same way.

Electronics allows you to use an electronic device. For things like TVs
your level of skill doesn't matter. If you're using your jammer to block
the opponents communciations then skill matters.

Electronics B/R allows you to diagnose, repair, modify, or alter
electronic devices.

-David
--
"If I told you, then I'd have to pull a Shadowrun against you. Sorry."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 13
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 09:55:41 -0400
At 02:10 PM 6/27/98 +1000, you wrote:
>OK. An interesting situation has popped up in my campaign. It has to
>do with the usefulness of Electronics B/R as opposed to straight
>Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
>completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a
>maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R.
>This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
>for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
>include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
>knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own radio,
>but at the same time not understanding what the resistor actually
>does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me that there
>is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else do/think about
>this situation?

A lot of people are focusing in on the breaking into stuff part of B/R
skills, so we'll stay with that. If I want to get through a maglock on a
door, there's two parts to accomplish the goal. First, I roll a B/R test to
get the cover off. This is more than just taking a screwdriver to it, I
have to know where the cover is released, how to bypass the anti-tamper,
how far to pull it off before the wires break, etc.

Once I have the cover off, I'm faced with a mass of wires and circuits. So
I have to figure out which circuits I have to bypass in orded to make the
system think that it got the right command to open. This is an Electronics
Test, since I'm trying to figure out which ones to use. Once I know, its
ususally a trivial matter to actually make it happen. Some GMs might
require another BR test to actually do it, although its usually assumed.

The same would go for other skills. The skill is why it works and how to do
it, the BR skill is what it does and how to fix it.

Sommers
"What do you mean that the circutry doesn't have a blue wire? There's
ALWAYS a blue wire?"
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 15:25:14 +0100
And verily, did Sommers hastily scribble thusly...
|>This is applicable to nearly any situation. I would also think that
|>for someone to possess an Elec B/R skill, the skill would have to
|>include the theoretical knowledge as well. I can't see someone
|>knowing where to put that resistor when he is building his own radio,
|>but at the same time not understanding what the resistor actually
|>does. So why are they two separate skills. It seems to me that there
|>is a bit of a problem here. What does everyone else do/think about
|>this situation?

Diagnostic electronics (repair) and design electronics (The theory) are
completely different, believe me. Diagnostics doesn't go anywhere near the
depth of design. In design you need to know all this horrible maths about
how filters work, and how to make them have the exact characteristic you
want. In diagnostics, you know all the component values, and can just check
for shorts, burnouts, and devices that have varied too far from their
manufactured specs over time.

This is done by observing voltage and current values, and waveforms, and
noting differences from what they SHOULD be.

THAT is build/repair. Electronics by itself would contain SOME build repair
skill, but with penalties. You get a knack for looking in the right places
after a while. Build/Repair will have some knowledge on Standard
electronics, but ask a video repairman to design from scratch and active
filter with *this specific* characteristic curve, and he'd be incredibly
lost. (As am I, which is why Ím specialising in computer science and
dropping electronics for my final year....)
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 15
From: Sommers <sommers@*****.UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:24:47 -0400
At 03:25 PM 6/29/98 +0100, you wrote:
>And verily, did Sommers hastily scribble thusly...

[Snip a whole bunch of good stuff by Andrew Halliwell]

Most of the stuff you said is true, and definitley from RL. For game
purposes, I look at it like this:

If you want to break into the maglock box, its Electronics B/R

If you want to play the wires to open it, its electronics

If you want to design a better maglock so that people can't break in, its
Electrical Engineering

Sommers
"Who hated his one Electrical Engineering class with a deep, burning,
Nova-like intensity."
Message no. 16
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:52:17 +0100
And verily, did Sommers hastily scribble thusly...
|Sommers
|"Who hated his one Electrical Engineering class with a deep, burning,
|Nova-like intensity."
|

Ditto. And I had to put up with it for two years!
Can you say, AAAAAAARGH!!! ?
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 17
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:26:35 +0000
> From: NightRain <nightrain@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
> Subject: B/R Skills

> Electronics. As far as I can work out, the two skills almost
> completely overlap. If you can use Electronics to say, over-ride a

Nope...one is electronic theory (how circuits are built, etc) and the
other is actual hands on repair. Are they exclusive? Of course
not...firearms is not exclusive from firearms B/R either...that's why
they are near each other on the skill web.

As far as electronics, there is a big difference between knowing how
to fix a VCR and knowing how to design a VCR. You learn a little of
one when you learn the other, but not usually in depth enough to do
the other.

> maglock, I should think that you would also be able to use Elec B/R

It would require a combination of the two skills....either one would
be appropriate in this case.


Just my HO

--Droopy
Message no. 18
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 12:26:35 +0000
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Subject: Re: B/R Skills

> And I can also think of people who have Electronics B/R but
> probably don't know what half the things they're putting together
> actually do, let alone how they work: assembly line workers who
> make all the CD players, radios, TVs, and so on we use every day.
> All they really need to know is that this goes there and you apply
> the solder here.

That just means they know how to put together that one item from
parts...they still don't neccesarily know how to troubleshoot and/or
repair that particular item, let alone anything else. Wouldn't
qualify as a skill IHMO.


--Droopy
Message no. 19
From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:15:34 -0600
Droopy wrote:

>> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>> Subject: Re: B/R Skills
>
>> And I can also think of people who have Electronics B/R but
>> probably don't know what half the things they're putting together
>> actually do, let alone how they work: assembly line workers who
>> make all the CD players, radios, TVs, and so on we use every day.
>> All they really need to know is that this goes there and you apply
>> the solder here.
>
>That just means they know how to put together that one item from
>parts...they still don't neccesarily know how to troubleshoot and/or
>repair that particular item, let alone anything else. Wouldn't
>qualify as a skill IHMO.
>


This is just a reflection of the skill level that they are at. A factory
worker would have a skill of 2 or 3. (Probably lower in the more automated
factory) A general electronics repair tech stars out with a skill of 5 or
6.

Let's look at a different example. For data entry you would need a skill
of 1 or maybe 2. A electronic research specialist needs a much higher
skill level to find information from a wide variety of sources.

Piatro
Message no. 20
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: B/R Skills
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 16:02:13 +0000
> From: Pete Wilson <piatro@**********.COM>
> Subject: Re: B/R Skills
> >That just means they know how to put together that one item from
> >parts...they still don't neccesarily know how to troubleshoot and/or
> >repair that particular item, let alone anything else. Wouldn't
> >qualify as a skill IHMO.
>
> This is just a reflection of the skill level that they are at. A factory
> worker would have a skill of 2 or 3. (Probably lower in the more automated
> factory) A general electronics repair tech stars out with a skill of 5 or
> 6.

Can't agree with ya here...the ability to piece something together
from a set of instructions is completely different than the ability
to build/repair that same item.


--Droopy
Message no. 21
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 22:07:46 -0400
Ok, we can build cars, drones, guns, electronic stuff, decks, programs,
etc. But there are two things that I'd love rules on how to build, since
I've got characters that build them. The first is 'softs. I mean, cannon
companion mentions all these cool design options for 'softs, plus
options for BTL's. I've got a nice character with skillwires six who's
an ex-Hollywood programmer/tech that now has the equipment to program
his own chips, but there are no rules on how. My GM tried to figure them
out, using variables like, how well the machine picks up the actions,
how many times the action is done, how well it's recorded, how well the
actions are cross-referenced with knowsofts, how well I burn the chip,
etc, etc. Very complicated, and it would have been nice for Cannon
companion to include rules for it.
The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS, and
love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses if I made
the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an enchanter/armorer
type of person. But there are no rules for making your own armor. Like,
would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools, at maybe a x2 modifier to
cost, and make my own armor?
I realize that this is mostly a rant going on about how I thought up
characters not in the rules, but hey, I'm not the only one who thinks of
this stuff. If anyone knows of rules somewhere for this stuff, I'd love
to hear them. Thanks.


--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++
G e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 22
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:45:29 EDT
In a message dated 4/2/2000 7:03:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu writes:

> The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS, and
> love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses if I made
> the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an enchanter/armorer
> type of person. But there are no rules for making your own armor. Like,
> would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools, at maybe a x2 modifier to
> cost, and make my own armor?

Personally, I dont see any reason why not... It would be Armor B/R, and the
specializations would be cloth and metal(s) You WOULD need either a shop or
most likely a facility, though, but the tools are usually the same type as
found in a regular General tool kit for metal armors. For stuff like Kevlar?
Yeah, a special kit/shop/facility at a x2 price sounds about right.

--
Starrngr -- Ranger HQ
HTTP://home.talkcity.com/TheSanitarium/Da_Muck/

"You wear a Hawaiian shirt and bring your music on a RUN? No wonder they
call you Howling Mad..." -- Rabid the Pysad.
Message no. 23
From: Erik Slof e0slof@********.cs.adelaide.edu.au
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:33:03 +0930 (CST)
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 Starrngr@***.com wrote:

> In a message dated 4/2/2000 7:03:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
> > The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS, and
> > love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses if I made
> > the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an enchanter/armorer
> > type of person. But there are no rules for making your own armor. Like,
> > would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools, at maybe a x2 modifier to
> > cost, and make my own armor?
>
> Personally, I dont see any reason why not... It would be Armor B/R, and the
> specializations would be cloth and metal(s) You WOULD need either a shop or
> most likely a facility, though, but the tools are usually the same type as
> found in a regular General tool kit for metal armors. For stuff like Kevlar?
> Yeah, a special kit/shop/facility at a x2 price sounds about right.

sounds fair

As for price etc. heres my guess
Work out the B/I average them thats one multiplier.
Amount of body covered another working on 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full.
Concealability /2 another
material made of for the base value

so
Material*((B/I)/2)*cover*concealability= cost

material costs

Base cost (kevlar) 75 Y
Impact Padding +10 Y
Metal plates +25 Y

cover multipliers

1/4= .5
1/2= 1
3/4= 1.5
full = 2.5

eg
material: Kevlar w/ metal plates ,
B/I 4/2,
Cover 3/4 (long Coat),
concealability 4


=> 100 * 3 * 1.5 * 2 = 900 Y

Ok its more expensive but hey its a perfect fit :)

Tigger
The Bouncey Rigger
"What you say my suppension is shot?
Nah this is how i like it"
Message no. 24
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 23:46:49 -0500
From: NaCl(aq)
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2000 9:08 PM

> I've got a nice character with skillwires six who's an ex-
> Hollywood programmer/tech that now has the equipment to program
> his own chips, but there are no rules on how.

That's what the Applied Simsense chapter in CANNON COMPANION is all about,
Salty.

> The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS,
> and love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses
> if I made the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an
> enchanter/armorer type of person. But there are no rules for making
> your own armor. Like, would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools,
> at maybe a x2 modifier to cost, and make my own armor?

The Armor B/R Skill is listed in CC, as well.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 25
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Sun, 02 Apr 2000 21:48:44 -0700 (PDT)
On Sun, 2 Apr 2000 22:45:29 EDT, Starrngr@***.com wrote:

>In a message dated 4/2/2000 7:03:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu writes:
>
>> The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS, and
>> love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses if I made
>> the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an enchanter/armorer
>> type of person. But there are no rules for making your own armor. Like,
>> would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools, at maybe a x2 modifier to
>> cost, and make my own armor?
>
>Personally, I dont see any reason why not... It would be Armor B/R, and the
>specializations would be cloth and metal(s) You WOULD need either a shop or
>most likely a facility, though, but the tools are usually the same type as
>found in a regular General tool kit for metal armors. For stuff like Kevlar?
> Yeah, a special kit/shop/facility at a x2 price sounds about right.

There are some rules in CC (Cannon Companion) on repairing armour, and modifying armour.
These rules indicate that to
repair armour a kit is needed, for hardened or military armour a shop or facility is
required. Pages 52 & 96 of CC.


-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://www.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 26
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:40:49 +0200
According to Starrngr@***.com, at 22:45 on 2 Apr 00, the word on the
street was...

> Personally, I dont see any reason why not... It would be Armor B/R, and the
> specializations would be cloth and metal(s)

Plus plastics and ceramics, IMHO.

> You WOULD need either a shop or most likely a facility, though, but the
> tools are usually the same type as found in a regular General tool kit
> for metal armors.

I'd say you can make a metal armor (a crude one, though) with nothing more
than a toolkit: a hammer and an anvil to shape the plate would be enough,
once it's been cut to size.

> For stuff like Kevlar?

A loom and a sewing machine?

> Yeah, a special kit/shop/facility at a x2 price sounds about right.

Sounds good enough to me, too. If you want to use ceramics, though,
perhaps the cost would need to be increased a bit further, maybe to 3x
base price.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Everyone speaks the truths
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 27
From: NaCl(aq) jed7466@******.isc.rit.edu
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 10:14:24 -0400
Patrick Goodman wrote:

> That's what the Applied Simsense chapter in CANNON COMPANION is all about,
> Salty.
>

Page number with the Skillsoft programming active skill or the page that tells
me what dice to roll against which target number to program it? I realize
there is info on how much it costs to buy them, but didn't see anything on
doing it yourself.

> The Armor B/R Skill is listed in CC, as well.
>

Thanks, I didn't read through all of CC yet, just got it yesterday.



--
NaCl(aq)
-------------
GCS(GAT) d>d-- s-:- a-->a? C++++ S E W+>W++ w PS? PE Y+ R+ tv-@ b+ DI+++ G
e>e+++ h>h+ r--- !y+**
Message no. 28
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 11:18:18 -0500
From: NaCl(aq)
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 9:14 AM

> > That's what the Applied Simsense chapter in CANNON COMPANION is
> > all about, Salty.
>
> Page number with the Skillsoft programming active skill or the
> page that tells me what dice to roll against which target number
> to program it?

Don't have my copy yet, so no page references (going by memory from playtest
drafts), but I'm fairly sure it mentioned the use of the Computer skill, and
possibly some sort of Skillsoft specialization. This might be mentioned in
the last chapter on advanced combat rules, where they list some new skills.

Or maybe I'm remembering the version of the simsense chapter that was
originally supposed to go into MAN AND MACHINE...I just got up, so I'm a
little blurry right now.

> > The Armor B/R Skill is listed in CC, as well.
>
> Thanks, I didn't read through all of CC yet, just got it yesterday.

Armor B/R is in the Advanced Rules chapter at the end of the book.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 29
From: HHackerH@***.com HHackerH@***.com
Subject: B/R skills?
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 12:28:17 EDT
In a message dated 4/2/00 9:46:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
Starrngr@***.com writes:

> > The second thing I'd like to build is armor. I recently got MITS, and
> > love the enchanting skill. I noticed that I could get bonuses if I made
> > the enchanted stuff myself, and decided to make an enchanter/armorer
> > type of person. But there are no rules for making your own armor. Like,
> > would it be possible? Could I buy armor tools, at maybe a x2 modifier to
> > cost, and make my own armor?
>
> Personally, I dont see any reason why not... It would be Armor B/R, and
the
> specializations would be cloth and metal(s) You WOULD need either a shop
or
> most likely a facility, though, but the tools are usually the same type as
> found in a regular General tool kit for metal armors. For stuff like
Kevlar?
> Yeah, a special kit/shop/facility at a x2 price sounds about right.


Actually, and I'm not 100% on this, but I think the specializations might be
Hard, Soft, Vehicular and Naval; as far as armor categories might go.
Alternatives might be Personal and Vehicular. This is one of those times
where SR2's "concentrations" would have been nice to help out.

You could argue that armor, for vehicles, is actually part of the related
vehicle B/R skill for the vehicle in question ... and in fact this might make
more sense. The "Armor B/R" skill could then just be limited to the Soft,
Hard and Military (yes Ken, I know you don't like this, but we're just
looking at a few options here).

As far as tools being required, I'd more or less agree with Starrngr there.
Use the Kit, Shop and Facility options as listed in some of the books and
modify their street index or base costs according to perhaps up to what
scale/legality the armor could actually manufacture/repair. In this case,
I'm referring to "Street, Security and Military" as categories.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
-K
-"Just a Bastard"
-Hoosier Hacker House
"Children of the Kernel"
[http://members.aol.com/hhackerh/index.html]

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about B/R Skills, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!