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Message no. 1
From: Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
Subject: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 17:25:12 EST
On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:55:31 +0000 Leszek Karlik wrote:

<snip>
> > >And yes, we shot him.
> > >I really felt bad for him... for a minute. ;P)
> >
> > That seems pretty pointless. If he was taping your phones, those
> > hiring him probably knew such basic information. You din't decrease
> > exposure, but you commited murder. But I don't know the whole
> > story. I've never gotten to uptight about keeping a characters name
> > secret- I figure changing I'd's every few months is part of the job.
> > We don't even tell proffesinal affilites real names- how tracable
> > is a streat name? Fairly, with detective work, but you need a
> > handle to get work.

> Of course this was pointless and totally nonsensical. but it was in
> our early Shadowrunning days, when the runs looked more like Quentin
> Tarantino movies. ;-/ (And I also had a Order of Cu-Chullain Physad
> as a PC. Oh well.)

> Luckily, it's a bit more sane now.

This thread makes me thing about brutality and morality in Shadowrun.

Something about runner's morality: In Shadowrun you get karma after the
adventure, no experience points or a kill ratio. As far as I remember karma is
positive energy (I think this comes from Indian religion, but I may be wrong).
In the 'after the run' section of official adventures FASA often writes that
the characters get more karma, if they were 'nice'. In the Shadowrun companion
they discuss a amoral campaign where the runners get no karma for their
actions. That leads me to one conclusion: the authors of Shadowrun want the
runners to have some kind morality. I think they not only wrote this to avoid
censorship.

But sometimes it seems to me that players absolutely don't care about any
morals. I don't think that runners should be the good guys: they are
criminals, anarchists and like to do illegal thinks but I think they are
supposed to have some kind of codex for their life. I think that a street
samurai doesn't call him self a samurai 'cause he likes the name but because
he behaves like a urban samurai. In the fields of fire there is a quite huge
part about a mercenary and his codex.

Like Leszek Karlik I could tell you several stories from the beginning of my
time as a roleplayer where my characters behaved like psychos, but this
changed as the characters I played became more realistic persons that were
more than just archetypal jack of all trades with quite good stats. By the way
I hope you never find out anything about my first character, you would scream
munchkin and I would agree (imagine an initiated combat mage with almost a
million invested in cultured bioware). <voice in my had urging me to thwarp
myself>

Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your campains and
what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you keep
your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except having the
one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind of
morality would be a good point to start from.

BTW: I'm not a morality apostle, although I might sound a bit sensitive. The
Tarantino movies Leszek Karlik mentioned are some of my favourite movies. (And
they _do_ have morality: Don't you know about "The part of the righteous man"
that "is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny
of evil men...") :)

- Matthias
Message no. 2
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 00:36:10 -0500
Matthias Kerzel didst writeth upon the forum...

>This thread makes me thing about brutality and morality in Shadowrun.


< snip, crunch, chomp, chew...>


>Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your campains
and
>what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you keep
>your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except having
the
>one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind of
>morality would be a good point to start from.


Moreality has its place in SR, however twissted it may be. Every runner has
a line he ( or she ) won't cross, and while it may be far less restrictive
than those of a member of a far less violent, and far more legal profession,
it's something. At the moment, only one character I'm playing is what I'd
consider to be a runner, and defining Wylde's moral code has been fun,
second only to dealing with his insanity. One example springs to mind.

About a year ago ( in real time ), a group approached us and offered the
five of us a quarter million each to kill a bard from Tir na Nog who'd been
slandering Ehran the Scribe. Wheels began to tun, and we accepted the job,
not knowing enough about he Paths to know just who we'd be messing with. In
a surge of ruthlessness we agreed to find a young ganger and pay him or her
ten grand to pull the job for us, taking away most of the risk for us. Our
search led us to a young Halloweener girl who'd pissed off one of her
superiors and had been declared expendable, though they'd neglected to tell
her.

With visions of piles of easy cred dancing in their heads the PCs tracked
the Bard to a suite in a posh downtown Seattle hotel and set up surveillance
to observe our new employee in action, since if she screwed up and got
killed the footage of security in action could be helpful. Needless to say,
she was in way over her head and would have died a messy death in the sunlit
room were it not for salvation from the most unlikely of sources.

As she was in the elevator headed to the penthouse, Wylde watched her on the
pirated security camera feed as she paced nervously, drumming her fingertips
on the wall and the unthinkable happened and his conscience took over.
Several seconds later he was in the other elevator headed upstairs, a pair
of Ingram Smartguns under his coat. When the doors of his elevator slid
open, Mary ( the ganger ) was stumbling down the hall towards him, a bullet
in her leg and two pissed off looking bodyguards with SMGs behind her.
Wylde stepped in front of her, blew away one guard, shrugged off a few
rounds and iced the other guard before walking down the hall into the bard's
room and hosing his sleeping form with autofire.

Later that night, while the would-be assassin was being attended to by a
Snake shaman, the rest of the group calmly informed Wylde that he was insane
for feeling guilty about sending someone off to die but having no problem
with killing a sleeping musician for speaking his mind. Wylde initially
rationalized it by claiming he had no chance of sleeping with her if she got
killed, but they weren't buying that one. Eventually, after a mind probe
that revealed several other "interesting" things about him, they discovered
that he had no problem with cleaning the bard because the bard knew exactly
who he was messing with while the young woman had been totally clueless
about how much crap she was wading into. His morals have been tested quite
a few other times and he's been able to look someone in the eyes and shoot
them because they saw something they shouldn't have, or spray a crowd with a
DMSO/LSD cocktail to create a diversion.

I'm not really sure there was a point to telling this story, but if so it
had to do with defining a runner's morals. Wylde does have a sense of right
and wrong, but it varies form situation to situation and minute to minute.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe Swinging Sociopath for Fun
-Tech Priest in Training
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
you've sold your soul, now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice T
Message no. 3
From: Avenger <Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 03:56:55 +0000
In article <4f644284.34ee02ce@***.com>, Matthias Kerzel
<MKerzel@***.COM> waffled & burbled about Brutality in Shadowrun

<biggus snippus>
>they discuss a amoral campaign where the runners get no karma for their
>actions. That leads me to one conclusion: the authors of Shadowrun want the
>runners to have some kind morality. I think they not only wrote this to avoid
>censorship.

In many ways games writers who wish to appeal to the majority and still
remain a "family" event, will build in morals to their games, and
encourage moralistic play. For example, the panicked and rapid removal
of demons from AD&D, something that was done initially to enforce the
point that it wasn't an "evil" <tm> game.

This can be seen across the board for many games. The exceptions are
out there, but they are few.

That's not to disagree with you, as FASA may have had other reasons.
One thing that makes me think this is the comment about Shadowrunners
being the last line of defence against the corruption of the
corporations, hmmm. :)

>But sometimes it seems to me that players absolutely don't care about any
>morals.


The game lends itself very well to a loose binding to "morals". I don't
enforce any kind of moralistic points on my players, never have and
never will, I know some games that do, very strongly adhering to the
"Thou shalt not kill" stuff.


The reason I've never done anything like this is because I feel that it
would limit the variety of character mentalities that are available,
whether it be religious fervour and strongly moralistic, or an amoral
sociopath. I don't care. The players regulate themselves. Similarly,
I don't penalise them for playing by awarding 'bad' karma or no karma.
That's simply a false method of enforcing my own sensibilities on them.


I do however, enforce the laws of the land. It is illegal to go around
killing people. The more people you kill the more likely you are to get
caught as the public and media outcry heats up, and the hunt gets more
intense. But that is a simple fact of living in a society governed by
laws. Even Shadowrun has laws, they are enforced by the Police and
written by whatever governmental legislature exists in games. My
governments are much more powerful than in many games I've read on this
list, and do not kowtow to Corps as much. - But that's another story.


I've had psycho's and sociopaths, random and deliberate killings, and
even killings between the PCs, either as a result of gross stupidity
from one, or an argument that simply got out of hand. At the moment,
the characters in my game are a bunch of fun loving, ex students.
They've only recently killed someone as part of a contract, and one
character is still coming to terms with that. But that was a conscious
decision by the player - not something I forced them into. So far, they
seem to be having fun. Prior to the current team, the players consisted
of one sociopath, two moralists (no wetwork, no women, no kids) an
amoral Mage, and a psychotic racoon shaman.


The games worked out quite well. I would rather enforce roleplaying,
than some feeble attempt at bullying the players into thinking in a
particular way. I don't agree with (as I've seen on this list last
year) with penalising the players because they killed someone rather
than using stun rounds, or similar. That's not only unfair, but leaves
little opportunity for variation. The players in that situation - as
witnessed at our local club, soon get bored being battered everytime
they do something the GM isn't happy about.


Shadowrun isn't a cuddly game. There's none of the cutsey good guy bad
guy garbage that Hollywood is so fond of. Each person who picks up a
gun in Shadowrun, is making a conscious decision to use that weapon.
Can't kill someone and then pop off to confession and ignore the fact.


If you listen to people who have killed in the past, they will normally
admit that their act stays with them all their lives. They never forget
it, whether it be conscience and guilt or some perverse pleasure gained
the act itself is never forgotten. I feel this would reflect in
Shadowrun. The characters should not casually kill everyone in sight,
just because they can, but that's not to say they shouldn't kill.


In order to reflect law enforcement in my games, I spent several months
browsing the web around the Police and Government Agency sites, getting
a feel for what was out there. How the Police and others saw their
jobs, and the effects they had on the community. These are the Police
in my games. The characters run the shadows, but they do so either out
of need, or choice, but always in fear.


About the only regulation I have on the game, is that if the characters
want weapons, armour, cyberware, etc etc. They've got to work damned
hard to get it. They can't just walk up to Mr. Fixer and demand an Ares
HVAR, or Thunderbolt, or Predator. The weapons aren't so readily or
easily available. As their network of contacts and encounters
increases, certain items become easier to get. After about three months
of gaming, my current players have just graduated from one pistol
between six to a pistol each. In the main, they are light weapons,
except for one Manhunter.


Again, everything that is in the books, and a tremendous amount of stuff
from CP2020 and the 'net is available in my games - if they know where
to look, if they know the people to get it from. If they don't - well,
tough. :)


In many ways, I've been extremely lucky with players. They are good
people, who pay attention to what's happening, and have well developed
ideas on how their characters are going to act and interact. They
understand how I think, and how I see the world in general for
Shadowrun, and in the main agree with it. They have never, even from
the beginning in SR1 munched out. Except one - but that was cured and
he is at this time playing an absent minded professor type who just
happens to cast spells - when he can recall the formulae :)


I don't think I've ever been unfair to the players, though I've made
their lives very difficult from time to time, and I don't think they
have ever felt that I've been unfair either in my restrictions on
equipment availability, or the legal repurcussions of their actions.


The players earn karma once a section of a campaign is completed, not
every game session. They never earn bad karma, and if the roleplaying
has been particularly good, and I've been amused - like the last game -
and/or they've come up with a unique way of dealing with a problem I
award extra karma. Even a psycho can earn karma if he's been played
well, the players regulate themselves as regards what they do or don't
do in the game.


Whatever they do, whether it be moralistic highrollers preaching to a
corrupt world, or amoral killers living it up on the proceeds, is
completely up to them. The game allows for it, and encourages both
types of play - why penalise them for it?

--
Dark Avenger -:- http://www.shalako.demon.co.uk/index.htm -
Unofficial Shadowtk Newbies Guide, Edgerunners Datastore &
Beginnings of the Underseas Sourcebook.
http://freespace.virgin.net/pete.sims/index.htm - Alternative UK Sourcebook
(U/C)
Message no. 4
From: Philippe Garneau <pgarneau@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 01:11:09 -0500
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Matthias Kerzel <MKerzel@***.COM>
À : SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date : vendredi 20 février 1998 22:25
Objet : Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
deliberately caused?)


>On Thu, 19 Feb 1998 23:55:31 +0000 Leszek Karlik wrote:
>This thread makes me thing about brutality and morality in Shadowrun.
>
>Something about runner's morality: In Shadowrun you get karma after the
>adventure, no experience points or a kill ratio. As far as I remember karma
is
>positive energy (I think this comes from Indian religion, but I may be
wrong).
>In the 'after the run' section of official adventures FASA often writes
that
>the characters get more karma, if they were 'nice'. In the Shadowrun
companion
>they discuss a amoral campaign where the runners get no karma for their
>actions. That leads me to one conclusion: the authors of Shadowrun want the
>runners to have some kind morality. I think they not only wrote this to
avoid
>censorship.


>- Matthias

Ok, i'm not an expert about Indian religion (or any one, for that matter),
but i heard somewhere that Karma is neither good or bad energy, it's just
the name of the experience you've acquiered in your previous lives. The name
of the so-called net positive energy (good minus bad) that you've
accumulated during your multilife experience is called "Dharma", so if
Shadowrun mesured good (moral) deeds, it should rather have called it
Dharma. But if you want to mesure experience without morality being in
question, i suggest to call it Karma.

I agree that in published SR adventures, when the players do the morally
good deeds (such as saving the little boy, help out selflessly some NPC),
they get bonus karma. In some cases, when they kill, say, the innocent
little boy, the book recommends to impose a karma penalty. So all of this
indicates that the definition of karma in SR is to measure/reward player
morality.

For myself, i GM the game without rewarding/punishing moral acts via karma
points. The characters who kills without remorse or restraints get a lot of
trouble (i.e. Vengeful relatives, Lone Star harrasment, general lack of
respect/fear/distrust from their contacts that learn about their cruelty).
On the other side, characters with morals, regard for others gets bonus
points in negociations/legwork, and tend to get help more easily in tight
situations. I give karma for points like good roleplaying, careful planning
of a run, good ideas, humor & completing adventure objectives.

Tell me what you think! :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------

Philippe Garneau
B. Sc. en Microbiologie

"It's gonna be a NICE evening."
Message no. 5
From: Damon Harper <nomad74@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 03:34:48 PST
>But sometimes it seems to me that players absolutely don't care about
any
>morals.

Which, IMNSHO, is exactly why the writers 're-enforced' morality in
SRComp.

I don't think that runners should be the good guys: they are
>criminals, anarchists and like to do illegal thinks but I think they
are
>supposed to have some kind of codex for their life.

Most 'runners would argue that- they are 'neo-anarchists'(neo, for
those not in the know, means 'new'). And you have to remember why they
are anarchists of any calibre- neo or otherwise: Because the
organized(for lack of a better word) system of government in the
Shadowrun world is oppressive to the majority and they are totally
against(i.e. The megacorps and governments ARE the bad guys). It's
unfair to say that they like to do illegal things- some also hate to,
but feel they must to survive, and others feel it's the means to end.
There are just as many psychos as there are "Robin Hoods". Think I'm
wrong? Read or watch ANYTHING cyberpunk.

I think that a street
>samurai doesn't call him self a samurai 'cause he likes the name but
because
>he behaves like a urban samurai.

Like the definition in the SRI rule book states, "samurai" is used to
imply some sort of code of honor. Something you(as well was many
shadowrunners out there) have been forgetting.
All too many times have I seen total lack of honor in doing runs- esp
when I'm the new guy in the bunch. "Well, I don't know him" is the
common defense- which is good for some character templates, however I
see all too many times- esp if I'm getting shot in the proverbial back.

In the fields of fire there is a quite huge
>part about a mercenary and his codex.

Make no mistake. It's a good section to read, but it is about
mercenaries, not street sam. Though many simliarties exsist, there are
many differences as well.

[snip "So I married a munchkin"]
>
>Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your
campains and
>what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you
keep
>your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except
having the
>one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind
of
>morality would be a good point to start from.

I enforce morality with every fiber of my GM-being. Granted, I do
realize morals(or lack thereof) differ from character to character, and
I keep an open mind, but I still don't like to foster unjustified
murder(I tell them to save that for "Call of Cthulu"<G>).
Like someone's sig on this list says, there are four kinds of
homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable, and praisworthy- ne'er a
truer word spoken.
How do I enforce this? I don't like to clamp down on it too hard, so
I just usually stick with Karma(unless a PC does something royally
stupid, which is rare *knock on wood*). I realize this is just a game,
and if a PC goes nuts by hacking up secguard, I just minus some karma at
the end- it's not like I am trying to enforce morals on the players
themselves, although I feel like I need to at times(but I digress).
Karma is usually a simple enough punishment. Continued murderous
tendancies either get them in jail(looks like Lone Star found a hair at
the crime scene...) or dead (oops, SecGuard's distant uncle is the Cappo
of Atlanta, and family IS family...).

>
>BTW: I'm not a morality apostle, although I might sound a bit
sensitive. The
>Tarantino movies Leszek Karlik mentioned are some of my favourite
movies. (And
>they _do_ have morality: Don't you know about "The part of the
righteous man"
>that "is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the
tyranny
>of evil men...") :)

Why am I not surprised? <g> Remember that most of those
Shadowrun-type ppl in Tarentino movies get geeked at the end(ultimate
karma retribution). Watch "The Usual Suspects" or "The Professional"-
they are more my idea of what Shadowrunners should be "No womeen, no
keeds, dats da rools".



-Vagabond <nomad74@*******.com><ICQ 4297972>
___________________________________________________________
"What, drawn, and talk of peace! I
hate the word
As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee..."
-Shakespeare, Romeo & Juliet(Act I, scene I)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 6
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 08:58:50 EST
In a message dated 98-02-21 03:22:28 EST, you write:

> >Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your campains
> and
> >what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you
keep
> >your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except having
> the
> >one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind of
> >mortality would be a good point to start from.
>

In my game here in Lafayette, the players know one simple thing ... you pull
out the heavy artillery and the opposition will do the same ... you start
tossing heavy mojo and they will do the same ... so, in a nutshell ... Quid
Pro Quo ...

I have also found the perfect sniper rifle ... it has to be mounted onto
something (like a drone or a vehicle of some sort ... A Victory Rotary
Autocannon with only one rate of fire ... SS ... 20D vehicular damage on
somebody will definitely kill just about everything ... and does not cause as
much collateral damage as some of the other heavier munitions (especially PACs
and the like) ...

Mike
Message no. 7
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:45:42 +0000
[SNIP]

> Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your campains and
> what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you keep
> your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except having the
> one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind of
> morality would be a good point to start from.

First about "Karma" it is not just good energy it is both good and
bad, but if you load up on bad energy bad things are going to
happend.

I don't directly interfer with my players morals, but I give them
hints to what I think would be appopriate for them. If they want to
massacre people by the number then they are allowed to do so but it
will come back to haunt them sooner or later.

But this has more to do with a reputation they gain. If they are
known to take no prisoners and kill everyone in sight people will
know and they will show them the same lack of mercy they show.

Thankfully my players have realised that there is very little to gain
from killing civilians and guards since they are only passing by or
simply doing there job. Killing other baddies is ok.

I usually hand out extra karma if they don't kill anybody as a little
bonus since it is usually harder to complete an adventure without
killing anyone.

If you are a psyco you will only get psyco runs, and well psyco runs
are commonly very lethal.

And since the runners know that I put hard against hard if they kill
everybody they don't since it ain't in there opinion very
professional or good for their health.

/Stefan


------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
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Message no. 8
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 1998 19:01:34 +0000
> [SNIP]
>
> > Back to my question: How is the general brutality level in your campains and
> > what do you think of morality in Shadowrun? I'm just wondering how you keep
> > your players from killing everybody that is weaker than them except having the
> > one that are stronger then them kill the runners. And I think some kind of
> > morality would be a good point to start from.

Morality. Hm.
How much does it take to kill someone?

"If the choice is between 20 years in the slammer and some joe, well,
it ain't no choice at all. But I don't go whacking people for no
reason!"

It varies a lot from person to person, I think. That's ok by me. If
someone has a PC which is likely to kill someone, while another
absolutely refuses to take another's life, then that's up to them.
They choose their roles, and live by them, and die by them. If
someone chooses to play a total psycho, then so be it.

Let's play with hypothetical questions here..
I've made up 12 of them. Some might be rather heavy... they relate
to morality as well as brutality. The 'multiple choice' format is
only to illustrate my limited imagination in coming up with possible
solutions. As most GM's know, if they expect a runner to do one of
four things, the answer is invariably "None of the above." :).

They are meant for contemplation. There's no awards in sight. If
someone wants to use them to build a point - based brutal-o-meter out
of it, go ahead. (Actually gave me an idea to a run or two.. :)

1)
You are in the middle of an Ares compound. You and your team set off
an alarm. Blocking the only known exit you see a guard who hasn't
noticed you yet, what do you do?
A: Kill him quietly before I am seen.
B: Drop that exit and look for another one.
C: Give him a chance to surrender first
D: .. and then shoot him anyway.

(A: A practical, if brutal approach.
B: Impractical, but you avoid a potential fight. Can be very
dangerous.
C: Risky, but friendly.
D: Damn psycho.).

2)
You are walking down a street. You believe you are being followed by
someone in a dark trenchcoat. What do you do?
A: Ambush the stalker with lethal intent.
B: Try to shake the tail.
C: Ambush the stalker with intent to interrogate.

(A: Fairly pointless in most cases. Unnecessary brutal.
B: Sensible.
C: Risky, but sensible.).

3)
One of your associates has been targeted by a control thoughts spell,
and is about to attack you. You have no non-lethal methods of
incapacitating him, and cannot affect the mage. What do you do?
A: Kill him first.
B: Try to get away, even though it gives him a free shot or two at
your back.
C: Chance that he will not shoot his friend and ignore the threat.

(A: Sensible. Also brutal.
B: You are probably dead. Sorry.
C: You are probably dead. Sorry.)

4)
You see two men attacking a third. The two appear intent to bludgeon
the third to death. They are apparently not professionals. What do
you do?
A: Break up the fight with (deadly) force.
B: Gun down all three for disturbing your peaceful walk.
C: Try to intervene without using force.
D: Go on with whatever you were doing.

(A: It was overkill to use deadly force. Too brutal.
B: No comment.
C: If you wish to intervene, that is, initially, the sensible way.
D: Somewhat desensitized, aren't we?
(No further comments on multiple choices.).

5)
Mr. Johnson offers an assassination job. The pay is fair for that
kind of work. What do you do?
A: Refuse the job. You do not do wetwork.
B: Accept the job without question.
C: Demand a good reason why the target has to die, and if he can
supply one, do the job.
D: Offer to do it for free. Killing people is fun!

6)
On your last mission you left one witness, either voluntarily or
involuntarily, who appears to have noticed a bit too much about you.
One of your contacts warns you she is now planning to assist the
corp in building a case against you. What do you do?
A: Ditch the identity and set up a new one.
(Which looses you most of your considerable fortune)
B: Kill the witness.
C: Kill the witness and set up a new ID.
D: Threaten the witness into submission.

7)
You have been hired to blackmail a board memeber into
selling control shares of a corp. Somehow you decide to kidnap his
kid.The father is surprisingly stubborn about not selling. What do
you do?
A: Start sending fingers, toes, ears and eyes in the mail to help
make up his mind.
B: Keep waiting for him to do the fatherly thing.
C: Release the kid and try another approach.
D: Kill the kid and try another approach.

8)
Your wife, whom your shadowrunning career is unknown to, one day
discovers your ample collection of guns, and enough evidence she
knows you're not who she thought you was. You are worried she might
do something rash, like calling Lone Star. What do you do?
A: She's a risk. Shoot her.
B: Talk it out and trust in the love you hope you share.
C: Watch her actions carefully, and shoot her if you suspect she's
talking.
D: Watch her actions carefully, and disappear if you suspect she's
talking.
E: Disappear.

9)
You know you lead a life of danger that could be deadly not only to
you, but whoever is close to you as well. A girl you've been going
out with has given you very clear hints you should propose, and
you feel you could be happy together.
A: Ignore the risk and marry.
B: Pretend not to hear the hints.
C: Realize the danger you're putting her in and disappear quietly.
D: Realize she's becoming baggage and drop her.
E: Quit running, move to another town, and marry.

10)
You are a rigger in a panzer flying low over Seattle. Corporate
ackack's tagged you and shot out an engine. You're loosing altitude
fast. Your main choices are:
A: Dive into the sea and die.
B: Eject, letting the panzer crash into the Renraku Archology.
C: Try to reach a runway, giving yourself a chance to survive, but
may also kill hundreds if you, as is quite probable, fail.

11)
Before a mission against Ares you must choose ammunition. You have a
choice between armor piercing, explosive tipped high velocity
'surekill' rounds, and some rather wimpy stun rounds. Whaddyado?
A: Use the wimpy stun rounds only. No need to kill unless absolutely
necessary.
B: Use the surekill only. No need to take risks just to keep guards
alive.
C: Use stun rounds as far as possible, and switch to surekill only
when fghting targets unaffected by the stun rounds.
D: Use the wimpy stun rounds as far as possible. If you kill the
guards, you cannot torture them.

12)
You used stun rounds on the last mission because you didn't want to
kill guards unnecessarily. Two of the guards faked going down, or
woke almost immediately, and shot your partner in the back, killing
her. You now must choose ordnance for the next mission. What do you
choose?
A: Choose stun rounds again. It's the risk of the game, and you will
not sell out your convictions just because they can be risky.
B: No more mr. Nice Guy. They're going down.
C: That situation is totally unrealistic for the character. He would
never use stun rounds.

What would your character(s) do in these instances? Would all do the
same thing?

--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 9
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 01:02:54 -0800
Fade wrote:

> Let's play with hypothetical questions here..

Just to prove Rune wrong :P I'm posting some alternate answers.

> 1)
> You are in the middle of an Ares compound. You and your team set off
> an alarm. Blocking the only known exit you see a guard who hasn't
> noticed you yet, what do you do?
> A: Kill him quietly before I am seen.
> B: Drop that exit and look for another one.
> C: Give him a chance to surrender first
> D: .. and then shoot him anyway.

E: Zap him with the Taser. Slim chance he'll have a heart attack or
similar condition; most likely he'll survive and retire.

F: Manipulative magic, thermal smoke, or other form of
distraction/concealment. Just because you have to get past him doesn't
mean you have to go *through* him.

> 2)
> You are walking down a street. You believe you are being followed by
> someone in a dark trenchcoat. What do you do?
> A: Ambush the stalker with lethal intent.
> B: Try to shake the tail.
> C: Ambush the stalker with intent to interrogate.

D: Make your way to the nearest storefront or police officer. Okay,
this only works if you're not carrying a submachinegun over your
shoulder; maybe you can see this as just a variant of B.

E: Call for the rest of your team on your cybercomm/telephone.

F: Go happily home. Sheesh, not *everyone* in a trenchcoar is a killer.

> 3)
> One of your associates has been targeted by a control thoughts spell,
> and is about to attack you. You have no non-lethal methods of
> incapacitating him, and cannot affect the mage. What do you do?
> A: Kill him first.
> B: Try to get away, even though it gives him a free shot or two at
> your back.
> C: Chance that he will not shoot his friend and ignore the threat.

D: Dispel the magic (preumably, your own Control Thoughts, as I'm not
sure how much good extending your magic pool does after the spell goes
off.) C'mon -- if you know he's affected by a control spell, you're
almost definitely magically active yourself.

E: Counter-attack. What, you're the wimpiest guy on your team?
(Besides, iirc, Control (foo) impose a modifier on the attacks, which
should be known to you (at least by D above).

F: Guard yourself. A nice Barrier spell does wonders...

> 4)
> You see two men attacking a third. The two appear intent to bludgeon
> the third to death. They are apparently not professionals. What do
> you do?
> A: Break up the fight with (deadly) force.
> B: Gun down all three for disturbing your peaceful walk.
> C: Try to intervene without using force.
> D: Go on with whatever you were doing.

Well, there's not much else to do. "Join in the fun" -- ya missed that
one.

> 5)
> Mr. Johnson offers an assassination job. The pay is fair for that
> kind of work. What do you do?
> A: Refuse the job. You do not do wetwork.
> B: Accept the job without question.
> C: Demand a good reason why the target has to die, and if he can
> supply one, do the job.
> D: Offer to do it for free. Killing people is fun!

E: Geek the Johnson, accept payment for his death.

F: Accept the job, then try and circumvent it -- quietly contact the
target, offer to create a new SIN for him and fake his death.

> 6)
> On your last mission you left one witness, either voluntarily or
> involuntarily, who appears to have noticed a bit too much about you.
> One of your contacts warns you she is now planning to assist the
> corp in building a case against you. What do you do?
> A: Ditch the identity and set up a new one.
> (Which looses you most of your considerable fortune)
> B: Kill the witness.
> C: Kill the witness and set up a new ID.
> D: Threaten the witness into submission.

E: Move to another country (easy in SR!) and assume the best.

F: Hire a good decker (or be one yourself) and frame witness,
corporation, or both, providing you with leverage to escape situation.

G: 'Fess up. Hey, at least it's doing the unexpected.

> 7)
> You have been hired to blackmail a board memeber into
> selling control shares of a corp. Somehow you decide to kidnap his
> kid.The father is surprisingly stubborn about not selling. What do
> you do?
> A: Start sending fingers, toes, ears and eyes in the mail to help
> make up his mind.
> B: Keep waiting for him to do the fatherly thing.
> C: Release the kid and try another approach.
> D: Kill the kid and try another approach.

E: Kidnap his *other* kid, his wife, and his grandmother. Kidnap the
exec himself.

F: Find other means of blackmailing exec as well.

G: Fastgrow a clone of kid and kill that.

H: Have your mage create an Ally Spirit with a form identical to son's.
Every night just before bedtime, the "son" materializes in front of
father and begs for mercy... only to disappear. (Could also be done
through other means.)

> 8)
> Your wife, whom your shadowrunning career is unknown to, one day
> discovers your ample collection of guns, and enough evidence she
> knows you're not who she thought you was. You are worried she might
> do something rash, like calling Lone Star. What do you do?
> A: She's a risk. Shoot her.
> B: Talk it out and trust in the love you hope you share.
> C: Watch her actions carefully, and shoot her if you suspect she's
> talking.
> D: Watch her actions carefully, and disappear if you suspect she's
> talking.
> E: Disappear.

F: Repent. Come clean and go to the Big House.

G: Deny it all. Begin slow psychological torture to wife to prove
*nothing* is what she thought it was - frame friends, ex-boyfriends,
in-laws in various non-normal acts. Assign wife to psych ward.

H: Convert her to becoming a shadowrunner herself. (Can be done.)

I: Fake overcoming an "implanted personality." Agree never to touch
weapons again, but, alas, you're not the man she fell in love with.
Walk away.

> 9)
> You know you lead a life of danger that could be deadly not only to
> you, but whoever is close to you as well. A girl you've been going
> out with has given you very clear hints you should propose, and
> you feel you could be happy together.
> A: Ignore the risk and marry.
> B: Pretend not to hear the hints.
> C: Realize the danger you're putting her in and disappear quietly.
> D: Realize she's becoming baggage and drop her.
> E: Quit running, move to another town, and marry.

F: HTF did you have time to go out with anyone? You're a runner!

G: Convert her to becoming a shadowrunner herself. Can be done.

H: Move her to Florida, assure her you will visit every weekend.

> 10)
> You are a rigger in a panzer flying low over Seattle. Corporate
> ackack's tagged you and shot out an engine. You're loosing altitude
> fast. Your main choices are:
> A: Dive into the sea and die.
> B: Eject, letting the panzer crash into the Renraku Archology.
> C: Try to reach a runway, giving yourself a chance to survive, but
> may also kill hundreds if you, as is quite probable, fail.

D: Well, once again, there's no D.

> 11)
> Before a mission against Ares you must choose ammunition. You have a
> choice between armor piercing, explosive tipped high velocity
> 'surekill' rounds, and some rather wimpy stun rounds. Whaddyado?
> A: Use the wimpy stun rounds only. No need to kill unless absolutely
> necessary.
> B: Use the surekill only. No need to take risks just to keep guards
> alive.
> C: Use stun rounds as far as possible, and switch to surekill only
> when fghting targets unaffected by the stun rounds.
> D: Use the wimpy stun rounds as far as possible. If you kill the
> guards, you cannot torture them.

E: Use a different gun altogether. Tasers, Narcoject, magic, gas
grenades, etcet.

This answer also depends highly on mision type and reason. Ares is very
well-known for munitions, so you know they will be shooting back.

> 12)
> You used stun rounds on the last mission because you didn't want to
> kill guards unnecessarily. Two of the guards faked going down, or
> woke almost immediately, and shot your partner in the back, killing
> her. You now must choose ordnance for the next mission. What do you
> choose?
> A: Choose stun rounds again. It's the risk of the game, and you will
> not sell out your convictions just because they can be risky.
> B: No more mr. Nice Guy. They're going down.
> C: That situation is totally unrealistic for the character. He would
> never use stun rounds.

D: No more missions.

E: Eh. What's a partner? At least it wasn't you.


-Mb
Message no. 10
From: "Leszek Karlik, aka Mike" <trrkt@*****.ONET.PL>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 21:25:24 +0000
On 22 Feb 98, Matb disseminated foul capitalist propaganda by
writing:

[...]

> > 4)
> > You see two men attacking a third. The two appear intent to bludgeon
> > the third to death. They are apparently not professionals. What do
> > you do?
> > A: Break up the fight with (deadly) force.
> > B: Gun down all three for disturbing your peaceful walk.
> > C: Try to intervene without using force.
> > D: Go on with whatever you were doing.
>
> Well, there's not much else to do. "Join in the fun" -- ya missed
> that one.

Well, there's:

E: Break up the fight with (un-deadly ;)) force - there has to be a
reason you took those Aikido 101 classes and carry the wimpy stun
ammo (they're not pros - even wimpy stun ammo should prove
effective).

[...]
[...]
> > 8)
> > Your wife, whom your shadowrunning career is unknown to, one day
> > discovers your ample collection of guns, and enough evidence she
> > knows you're not who she thought you was. You are worried she might
> > do something rash, like calling Lone Star. What do you do?
[...]

J. Uh? Wife? Wazzut? ;P



Leszek Karlik, aka Mike - trrkt@*****.onet.pl; http://www.wlkp.top.pl/~bear/mike;
Amber fan and Star Wars junkie; UIN 6947998; WTF TKD; FIAWOL; YMMV; IMAO; SNAFU; TANJ
Geek Code v3.1 GL/O d- s+: a19 C+++ W-(++) N+++ K? w(---) O@ M- PS+(+++) PE Y+
PGP- !t--- 5+(-) X- R*+++>$ tv-- b++++ D+ G-- e h--*! !r-- !y-*
Poets rule - anonymously.
Message no. 11
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 00:52:55 +0000
In article <tAuIEGAHCl70Ewkz@*******.demon.co.uk>, Avenger
<Avenger@*******.DEMON.CO.UK> writes
>About the only regulation I have on the game, is that if the characters
>want weapons, armour, cyberware, etc etc. They've got to work damned
>hard to get it. They can't just walk up to Mr. Fixer and demand an Ares
>HVAR, or Thunderbolt, or Predator. The weapons aren't so readily or
>easily available. As their network of contacts and encounters
>increases, certain items become easier to get. After about three months
>of gaming, my current players have just graduated from one pistol
>between six to a pistol each. In the main, they are light weapons,
>except for one Manhunter.

My character in Pete's game is probably the most heavily armed, in terms
of the weapons he owns. He _carries_ a Walther PB-120 and a knife. Why?
Because he is very respectful of the police.

The cops may be persuaded to ignore or merely confiscate an unregistered
light pistol, that was carried out of sight for personal defence by a
motorcycle courier who carries valuable cargo.

If they see it brandished on the street, however, the wielder can expect
to be killed on the spot. In some six months of the current campaign, a
total of about six shots have been fired.

>Again, everything that is in the books, and a tremendous amount of stuff
>from CP2020 and the 'net is available in my games - if they know where
>to look, if they know the people to get it from. If they don't - well,
>tough. :)

Pete and I are very similar in our style of allowing people to have
gear: the Hole song "Violet" springs to mind.

"They get what they want
And they never want it again..." ;)

>I don't think I've ever been unfair to the players, though I've made
>their lives very difficult from time to time, and I don't think they
>have ever felt that I've been unfair either in my restrictions on
>equipment availability, or the legal repurcussions of their actions.

We can do any damn thing we want. And we'll pay for it if we do :)

We've carried out a fairly major assassination, for instance. My
character pulled the trigger. We got away with it, because the victim
was more than slightly questionable, and we covered our tracks
carefully, and we got out of Dodge _right away_.

Much heart-searching went on among the group before we accepted the job,
and some angst has occurred afterwards: while my character is basically
satisfied that it went well, and would do wetwork again, he's still
having occasional nightmares about the view through the rifle's scope as
the bullet hit its target. That was the first time he'd killed anyone,
and it left a deeper mark than he has realised.


--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 12
From: "Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 01:13:29 +0000
In article <199802211802.TAA14058@***.uio.no>, Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
writes
>Let's play with hypothetical questions here..
>I've made up 12 of them. Some might be rather heavy... they relate
>to morality as well as brutality. The 'multiple choice' format is
>only to illustrate my limited imagination in coming up with possible
>solutions. As most GM's know, if they expect a runner to do one of
>four things, the answer is invariably "None of the above." :).

The following answers are for no character in particular :) More my
personal feelings than anything else.

>1)
>You are in the middle of an Ares compound. You and your team set off
>an alarm. Blocking the only known exit you see a guard who hasn't
>noticed you yet, what do you do?

Drop him by the fastest means possible. If he lives or dies, his
problem. If we pass him and he's dying, a trauma patch won't hurt much,
and if he still dies at least his buddies know we weren't totally
indifferent. If they catch us, that might matter.

>2)
>You are walking down a street. You believe you are being followed by
>someone in a dark trenchcoat. What do you do?

One team member splits to act as rear cover. Turn down somewhere quiet.
Ask the trailer "You following us?" Rear cover stands by to open fire as
necessary.

>3)
>One of your associates has been targeted by a control thoughts spell,
>and is about to attack you. You have no non-lethal methods of
>incapacitating him, and cannot affect the mage. What do you do?

Kill the magician sustaining the spell :)

>4)
>You see two men attacking a third. The two appear intent to bludgeon
>the third to death. They are apparently not professionals. What do
>you do?

Ask what's going on. Use the effective-looking firearm you're suddenly
holding to enforce the question.

>5)
>Mr. Johnson offers an assassination job. The pay is fair for that
>kind of work. What do you do?

Check out who the target is, and how much heat will follow his death,
before accepting or declining the job. If we're not given time to check,
either the pay must be _outrageous_ or we refuse.

>6)
>On your last mission you left one witness, either voluntarily or
>involuntarily, who appears to have noticed a bit too much about you.
>One of your contacts warns you she is now planning to assist the
>corp in building a case against you. What do you do?

Discredit the witness. Dig up or fabricate past sins, or implicate the
witness so her "evidence" is seen as a disinformation effort. #

>7)
>You have been hired to blackmail a board memeber into
>selling control shares of a corp. Somehow you decide to kidnap his
>kid.The father is surprisingly stubborn about not selling. What do
>you do?
>A: Start sending fingers, toes, ears and eyes in the mail to help
> make up his mind.
>B: Keep waiting for him to do the fatherly thing.
>C: Release the kid and try another approach.
>D: Kill the kid and try another approach.

Release the kid and abandon the mission. The board member ain't changing
his mind, Security are on our ass, and we failed. Keep any advance for
making the effort, but lose the payoff for success.

>8)
>Your wife, whom your shadowrunning career is unknown to, one day
>discovers your ample collection of guns, and enough evidence she
>knows you're not who she thought you was. You are worried she might
>do something rash, like calling Lone Star. What do you do?

Don't marry someone who doesn't have some idea what you _really_ do for
a living :)

>9)
>You know you lead a life of danger that could be deadly not only to
>you, but whoever is close to you as well. A girl you've been going
>out with has given you very clear hints you should propose, and
>you feel you could be happy together.

Warn her that you're a danger to her. If she doesn't panic, marry her
and work hard to keep her well seperated from your running ID.

>10)
>You are a rigger in a panzer flying low over Seattle. Corporate
>ackack's tagged you and shot out an engine. You're loosing altitude
>fast. Your main choices are:

Point the T-bird at something corporate and pull the handles.

>11)
>Before a mission against Ares you must choose ammunition. You have a
>choice between armor piercing, explosive tipped high velocity
>'surekill' rounds, and some rather wimpy stun rounds. Whaddyado?

Load explosives in the assault rifle and carry some APDS too, and stun
rounds (with some explosive backup) for my heavy pistol. Until the
alarms go, drop guards with silenced shots of stun ammo; once the
shooting starts, it's lethal all the way.

>12)
>You used stun rounds on the last mission because you didn't want to
>kill guards unnecessarily. Two of the guards faked going down, or
>woke almost immediately, and shot your partner in the back, killing
>her. You now must choose ordnance for the next mission. What do you
>choose?

This time, we double-tap with the stun rounds, and put one into their
groin too as we pass them: no _permanent_ damage, but it won't be easy
to shoot straight, let alone fake unconsciousness.

>What would your character(s) do in these instances? Would all do the
>same thing?

Not even slightly. No two of my characters would give the same answers
to that questionairre.

--
There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy...

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 13
From: --Odd-- <mikes@*****.CO.ZA>
Subject: Re: Brutality in Shadowrun (was: Re: Healing a wound the mage
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 23:20:36 +0200
>>>1)
>>You are in the middle of an Ares compound. You and your team set off
>>an alarm. Blocking the only known exit you see a guard who hasn't
>>noticed you yet, what do you do?


Depending on time constraints, spirit with confusion or such. What the
guard doesn't see he can't tell. Otherwise knockout.

>>2)
>>You are walking down a street. You believe you are being followed by
>>someone in a dark trenchcoat. What do you do?

Split up, create own ambush or attempt to tag individual with tracer and
visit at home. Depends on current mission.

>>3)
>>One of your associates has been targeted by a control thoughts spell,
>>and is about to attack you. You have no non-lethal methods of
>>incapacitating him, and cannot affect the mage. What do you do?

Aimed shot to the leg or arm if in firearm range. If in close quarters
either I'm dead or him out... have a few toys for that <grin>. Hope that
I'll get forgiven afterwards.

>>4)
>>You see two men attacking a third. The two appear intent to bludgeon
>>the third to death. They are apparently not professionals. What do
>>you do?

Intervention as nessesary. If person #3 is known, won't jeprodize
current mission.

>>5)
>>Mr. Johnson offers an assassination job. The pay is fair for that
>>kind of work. What do you do?

Lots of investigation. Generally though no.

>>6)
>>On your last mission you left one witness, either voluntarily or
>>involuntarily, who appears to have noticed a bit too much about you.
>>One of your contacts warns you she is now planning to assist the
>>corp in building a case against you. What do you do?

Dissappear. Sort out the problem months later when some of the heat is
off and alertness has dropped.

>>7)
>>You have been hired to blackmail a board memeber into
>>selling control shares of a corp. Somehow you decide to kidnap his
>>kid.The father is surprisingly stubborn about not selling. What do
>>you do?
>>A: Start sending fingers, toes, ears and eyes in the mail to help
>> make up his mind.
>>B: Keep waiting for him to do the fatherly thing.
>>C: Release the kid and try another approach.
>>D: Kill the kid and try another approach.

Accept his position. Keep the son, but try to find another pressure
point.

>>8)
>>Your wife, whom your shadowrunning career is unknown to, one day
>>discovers your ample collection of guns, and enough evidence she
>>knows you're not who she thought you was. You are worried she might
>>do something rash, like calling Lone Star. What do you do?

Have a fun time explaining that all those times you said you where on
business trips you where actually in hospital.

>>9)
>>You know you lead a life of danger that could be deadly not only to
>>you, but whoever is close to you as well. A girl you've been going
>>out with has given you very clear hints you should propose, and
>>you feel you could be happy together.

If there are enough funds available retire, else break off the
relationship.

>>10)
>>You are a rigger in a panzer flying low over Seattle. Corporate
>>ackack's tagged you and shot out an engine. You're loosing altitude
>>fast. Your main choices are:

Go in for an emergency landing, somewhere fairly secluded and hope for
the best. Low kill counts are usually better.

>>11)
>>Before a mission against Ares you must choose ammunition. You have a
>>choice between armor piercing, explosive tipped high velocity
>>'surekill' rounds, and some rather wimpy stun rounds. Whaddyado?

Take all three.

>>12)
>>You used stun rounds on the last mission because you didn't want to
>>kill guards unnecessarily. Two of the guards faked going down, or
>>woke almost immediately, and shot your partner in the back, killing
>>her. You now must choose ordnance for the next mission. What do you
>>choose?

That was the way that the mission went, learn from mistakes. Place an
extra shot between the eyes, but don't change morals because of the
situation.

>>What would your character(s) do in these instances? Would all do the
>>same thing?

No. There are too many variables to consider, least of all the
participants involved.

--Odd--

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