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Message no. 1
From: The Elder Dan <crisper@*******.SANTA-CRUZ.CA.US>
Subject: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 18 May 92 22:54:30 PDT
Well, the way I would run BTL's (and I confess to drawing more than a bit
from the WHEN GRAVITY FAILS way of chipping) would be to have them somewhat
imitate Physical Adept abilities, with Attribute changes as well.

If we're just looking at a straight-out pleasure chip, it might look something
like this:
----------
+1 Bdy (adrenalin going crazy)
-1 Wlp (psyche more vulnerable)

-1 ESN while under effects, with temporary effects on MGC as well. If your ESN
drops below 1.0 as a result, and you're magical at all, you lose your
abilities until you pop the chip. Even nastier would be to make the
loss permanent, which would REALLY discourage such addictions among
the magically-inclined, who ought to know better anyway. :)

Anywhere from 1-3 blocks of Pain Resistance, like the Physical Adept talent.
This will simulate the chippie's ability to take injury and stun and
still go for broke.
----------
There you go. That's all you need. It don't look like much, and it isn't, but
the changes are enough to show a difference in performance. And, of course,
there should be some penalty after popping the chip out, like +1 on ALL
target numbers for an hour or so afterwards. This will simulate the lag and
misery felt after taking out the chip. Your players will not want to take
their chips out as a result. Then you start adding penalties for keeping the
chips *IN* and voila, instant addiction simulation.

--The Elder Dan
"Say, aren't you wanted by the Yakuza?"
Message no. 2
From: CHRISTOPHER MOHAN <CMOHAN@*******.MHS.COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 04:09:13 EDT
I was chatting to a new player and trying to get accross the feel of Shadowrun.
Things where going well, when he asked if, this being a Cyberpunkish game,
there any drugs. I explained that chemicals drugs had been replaced by
BTL chips. Well, he thought it might be an interesting concept to play a
chiphead. Then I pointed out there was no real rules for the different types
off chips.

Would chips give modifers (ie Combat BTL +1 body +1 Strength type thing) and
would they be as effective or more as today's chemical drugs ?
What sort of problems could occur for chipping (ie neural damage, nerve burn out
etc)

Any thoughts folks ?

WHAT
Message no. 3
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 22:51:25 +1000
CHRISTOPHER MOHAN writes:

> I was chatting to a new player and trying to get accross the feel of
> Shadowrun. Things where going well, when he asked if, this being a
> Cyberpunkish game, there any drugs. I explained that chemicals drugs had
> been replaced by BTL chips. Well, he thought it might be an interesting
> concept to play a chiphead. Then I pointed out there was no real rules for
> the different types off chips.

Yeah, I think FASA lost something when they cut out the drugs. Drugs are a
very cyberpunkish thing, and I feel that they should have been included. The
(very few) drugs in S-Tech & LS don't quite cover it is you ask me. But
remember, FASA (I think) has replaced recreational drug use by BTLs, but they
still have their combat drugs (like Pugnacine Beta, Kamakazee & Jazz), and
such drugs are a part of the SR world (the shadowtalk under Kamakazee
indicates that mass drug use is common in corporate militaries as a cheap
alternative to cyberware for the troops).

> Would chips give modifers (ie Combat BTL +1 body +1 Strength type thing)
> and would they be as effective or more as today's chemical drugs ? What
> sort of problems could occur for chipping (ie neural damage, nerve burn out
> etc)

I'd think the only thing chips would give you is a big minus. Being locked
into your own little universe and ignoring the outside world doesn't usually
give you much of a plus. If you have S-Beat, check up the bit on simsense,
it talks about this (like how if you remove the muscle inhibitors, the
chiphead actually acts out the role he thinks he's playing - could be an
amusing trick to play on a chiphead :-)).

> Any thoughts folks ?

Put in drug use is my suggestion. There is a drugs file floating around on
the 'net someplace, which is a good place to start from (it's in Gurths
Running Gear too I think [I recently downloaded it, but have yet to read it
- looks great BTW Gurth, congrats]). I once played a Jazz and Kamakzee
addicted Physical Adept at a con, what a blast (based off the main character
from _Split Second_).

--
Damion Milliken Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a19 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 4
From: "Blair A. Monroe" <bmonroe@******.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 1995 10:58:45 -0400
>
> Would chips give modifers (ie Combat BTL +1 body +1 Strength type thing) and
> would they be as effective or more as today's chemical drugs ?
> What sort of problems could occur for chipping (ie neural damage, nerve burn out
> etc)

Check out the section in Shadowbeat (I think) that discusses simsence. It
also talks about how BTLs work and would give you someplace to start in
deciding how to handle this character idea.

______________________________________________________________________________
Blair A. Monroe | bmonroe@******.fsu.edu | GLS/TW GC2.1
| blairm@******.com | d? H>H+ s:+ g+ p? au a24 w+ !v(-)
-------------------------------------------| C++ U--- P? !L !3 E---- N++ K-
"A good GM never leaves home | !W(--) M++ !V -po+ Y+ t+ 5+++
without his dice." | j R++ G('''') tv+ b+++ !D B---
-Anonymous | e++ u++ h+(*) f r--@ n-(----) y?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Scott Taylor Spencer <sts100z@********.CC.ODU.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 1995 12:24:03 -0400
On Mon, 10 Apr 1995, CHRISTOPHER MOHAN wrote:

> I was chatting to a new player and trying to get accross the feel of Shadowrun.
> Things where going well, when he asked if, this being a Cyberpunkish game,
> there any drugs. I explained that chemicals drugs had been replaced by
> BTL chips. Well, he thought it might be an interesting concept to play a
> chiphead. Then I pointed out there was no real rules for the different types
> off chips.
>
> Would chips give modifers (ie Combat BTL +1 body +1 Strength type thing) and
> would they be as effective or more as today's chemical drugs ?
> What sort of problems could occur for chipping (ie neural damage, nerve burn out
> etc)
>
> Any thoughts folks ?
>
> WHAT
__________________
I have one or two players in my campaigns who played around with the BTL
experience. The system we worked out was that the chips contained
different personalities (a la Dreamchipper) and that he had to make a
random roll during stressful times to see which personality came up. The
chips don't give bonuses per say the give new skills and blot out the old
ones. The most fun we had was when a mage slotted one of these lovlies
and thought he was a Knight Templar. He ransacked the Seattle Museum of
Antiquities.>

_______________________________________________________________________________


"Come Friends Run With me Towards Danger"
-Unknown MST3K quote

Scott Spencer
sts100z@********.cc.odu.edu

"Nothing can stop us......we're on a mission from Glod"
-Cliff the Troll from Terry Prachett's Soul Music
_______________________________________________________________________________
Message no. 6
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 15:06:07 -0500
At 09:35 AM 2/7/97 -0500, Steven A. Tinner babbled:
><SNIP BLT IDEA>
>
>Fantastic!
>I love it, you took a common player mistake and turned it into someting
>useful!
>
>On a related note, in my campaign, Lone Star has just beugn using a lot of
>BTL chips for criminal incarceration.
>"Hot Sleep" (can't remember where I stole that name from) is used on
>criminals that would otherwise be expensive/difficult to contain - ie.
>heavily modified cybergoons, magicians, etc.
>
Here's a question for you relating to real BTL's...

How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
Time of the BTL?

Here's the reason I'm asking...

(And if anyone's been watching Star Trek Deep Space 9 and hasn't seen the
last season (Season 4? 5?), this is possible spoilers)...

Anyways... One of the Characters on DS9, Chief O'Brien, was Senteced to 20
years in prison for Espionage, or something like that... He gets
incarerated, and spends 20 years surviving in prison in really harsh living
conditions...

When he gets let loose, he wakes up on a table in DS9. It's really only
been a few hours. But the aliens who sentenced him used some sort of
Telepathy to put him in a form of VR that made him think he'd lived those
20 years. And he suffered all the effects of being in prison for 20 years,
especially the psychological reasons...

Would this work with BTL? If so, it could be something really nasty to
pull on your players...:)

Bull
--
Now the Fearless Leader of the New Star Wars Mailing List!

=======================================================
= Bull, aka Chaos, aka Rak, aka Steven Ratkovich =
= chaos@*****.com =
= "Order is Illusion! Chaos is Bliss! Got any fours?" =
=======================================================

"I finally find a guy I like, and you got to go and kill him!"
-Kom, "Outlanders"
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:14:01 -0700
Bull wrote:
|
| Here's a question for you relating to real BTL's...
|
| How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
| Time of the BTL?

I don't think I've ever read anywhere what the speed is.

| Here's the reason I'm asking...
|
[snip: 20 years vs 2 hours]
|
| Would this work with BTL? If so, it could be something really nasty to
| pull on your players...:)

Cruel. I like it :) Well, since FASA has never said (to
my knowledge) you'd be well within your rights to have
LoneStar develop the technology (or pay someone else to do
it). It would certainly save them a lot of money, even if
they can only double the percieved time (20 years served in
10). And they would only have to provide bed wards and
attendants to flip the "patients", and some electrical
stimuli to exercise their muscles.

To cool, I'm gonna have to use this one :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 8
From: Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:26:00 MST
>How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
>Time of the BTL?

I think the time is the same, you can't speed it up without the user
noticing. In shadowbeat, they mentioned that you can alter time a little
bit, but if you do it too much it is noticeable. But they still do it in
order to synchronize the different POVs (Point of Views). The audience is
aware of it and accepts it because it is common practice.

It did mention that you can program the feeling of sloshing through the
jungle for hours, but you can't really speed up time.

>Here's the reason I'm asking...
>
>(And if anyone's been watching Star Trek Deep Space 9 and hasn't seen the
>last season (Season 4? 5?), this is possible spoilers)...
>
>Anyways... One of the Characters on DS9, Chief O'Brien, was Senteced to 20
>years in prison for Espionage, or something like that... He gets
>incarerated, and spends 20 years surviving in prison in really harsh living
>conditions...
>
>When he gets let loose, he wakes up on a table in DS9. It's really only
>been a few hours. But the aliens who sentenced him used some sort of
>Telepathy to put him in a form of VR that made him think he'd lived those
>20 years. And he suffered all the effects of being in prison for 20 years,
>especially the psychological reasons...

That sounds suspiciously close to the STNG episode where and alien child
tried to do the same thing to Riker. Riker woke up 20 years (same time,
hmmnnn) and found himself the captain of the Enterprise. He was able to
detect it though because the kid running the illusion couldn't simulate the
processing power of the computer.

I was just thinking about simsense vacations last night, similiar to
Swartzneggar's Mars movie (in which I still say he never woke up from). I
guess it never hit me how cool it would be to go down to the virtual travel
bureua and take a virtual vacation, if at least just to see the
sights...like the Pyramids.

>Would this work with BTL? If so, it could be something really nasty to
>pull on your players...:)
>
>Bull

You could do the classic think you are out of the BTL but are not. But BTLs
are programmed. I would have to be interactive. Which brings up a second
idea that hit me. Wouldn't it be cool to see a movie with different ending,
sort of a choose your own adventuer?

What does the role-playing scene look like?

But your idea would have interesting ramifications in the prison system.
The law systems might be inclined to just plug a chip into you. Serving a
20 year sentance? Stick in the 20 year chip. Guy does 20 years, but only
takes a month or two, or even 5 minitues.

Personally I don't think simsense can do that though.

Denzil Kruse
d.kruse@****.com
Message no. 9
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 21:17:09 -0500
>>"Hot Sleep" (can't remember where I stole that name from) is used on

Sounds like the Worthing Saga, by Orson Scott Card. However, there, it was
desired, not a punishment...

>>criminals that would otherwise be expensive/difficult to contain - ie.
>>heavily modified cybergoons, magicians, etc.

>How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
>Time of the BTL?

Well, seeing as how emotional respones can cause "I saw my life flash before
my eyes..." I would say that an increased time is possible. Not necessarily
existing...you may want to introduce it as a new technology....Write
something up and post it to my page....:) As to the rate...I have no
idea...But you can live a 30 year life span in those 2 seconds before an
accident...double it to add in more detail...and you get a REALLY fast rate....
-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 10
From: Czar Eggbert <czregbrt@*********.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 17:49:38 -0600
<snip DS9 episode>
This has been done _alot_ in Sci-fi... in fact there was just an episode
of the Outer Limits, starring Niles from "Fraiser", that would fit SR
better. Niles was a doctor who invented a computer program that altered
time sence and used it to create a virtual prison. This was used only on
hardened ciminals who had been sentenced to a life sentence. the sectence
was for 20 years... the RT part only took 30 minits. The experence was
"made to Order" where the computer customized the experence to best fit
the prisiner and get them to reform... Buuuuuut the computer also assumed
innocence. The whole episode delt with the fact that an _innocent_ person
was hooked up.....
BTW the hookup was threw 'trodes kinda like a turtle.

<snip ST:TNG episode>

Nah My fave was the one where Riker thought he was going crazy..ya know
the one where he was in the alien mental Hospitel and everything kept
"changeing" :) I LOVED that one !!!! It would work on a decker team....
<snip Total Recall plot>
This is really what BTL's are... or just simsence in general, remember
simsence is verry comon. Just like TV and movies are today.
> You could do the classic think you are out of the BTL but are not. But BTLs
> are programmed. I would have to be interactive. Which brings up a second
> idea that hit me. Wouldn't it be cool to see a movie with different ending,
> sort of a choose your own adventuer.
> What does the role-playing scene look like?

If you read VR I<or is it II> they talk about disneys "Pirats of the
Carribean" as a simRPG kinda. This, i believe, is what the new Video games
will be like...also there is a refrence to them in Burning Bright, where
the Protaganist's daughter wants a datajack to play the viedogames
"right" ;)

<snip the rest>

Czar-I-have-read-too-much-Scifi-Eggbert

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Czar-"No-I-Didn't-Steal-This-LINE!"-Eggbert
Ruler, Dark Side of the Moon.
homepage: http:\\www.creighton.edu\~czregbrt
mailto:czregbrt@*********.edu
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And now for something completely diffrent:
"Not now honey... I'm cleaning my ears."
-Helen Stunkard
kittypurr@*******.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 11
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 18:40:03 EST
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:26:00 MST Denzil Kruse <dkruse@***.AZ05.BULL.COM>
writes:
<snip>
>>Here's the reason I'm asking...
>>
>>(And if anyone's been watching Star Trek Deep Space 9 and hasn't seen
>the
>>last season (Season 4? 5?), this is possible spoilers)...
>>
>>Anyways... One of the Characters on DS9, Chief O'Brien, was Senteced
>to 20
>>years in prison for Espionage, or something like that... He gets
>>incarerated, and spends 20 years surviving in prison in really harsh
>living
>>conditions...
>>
>>When he gets let loose, he wakes up on a table in DS9. It's really
>only
>>been a few hours. But the aliens who sentenced him used some sort of
>>Telepathy to put him in a form of VR that made him think he'd lived
>those
>>20 years. And he suffered all the effects of being in prison for 20
>years,
>>especially the psychological reasons...
>
>That sounds suspiciously close to the STNG episode where and alien
>child
>tried to do the same thing to Riker. Riker woke up 20 years (same
>time,
>hmmnnn) and found himself the captain of the Enterprise. He was able
>to
>detect it though because the kid running the illusion couldn't
>simulate the
>processing power of the computer.
>

They did a similar thing with prison inmates on the Outer Limits (the new
series, not the old one)...

>I was just thinking about simsense vacations last night, similiar to
>Swartzneggar's Mars movie (in which I still say he never woke up
>from). I
>guess it never hit me how cool it would be to go down to the virtual
>travel
>bureua and take a virtual vacation, if at least just to see the
>sights...like the Pyramids.

Hmmm...BTL vacations...interesting:)

>
>>Would this work with BTL? If so, it could be something really nasty
>to
>>pull on your players...:)
>>
>>Bull
>
>You could do the classic think you are out of the BTL but are not.
>But BTLs
>are programmed. I would have to be interactive. Which brings up a
>second
>idea that hit me. Wouldn't it be cool to see a movie with different
>ending,
>sort of a choose your own adventuer?
>
>What does the role-playing scene look like?
>
>But your idea would have interesting ramifications in the prison
>system.
> The law systems might be inclined to just plug a chip into you.
>Serving a
>20 year sentance? Stick in the 20 year chip. Guy does 20 years, but
>only
>takes a month or two, or even 5 minitues.
>
>Personally I don't think simsense can do that though.
>
Ah, perhaps not _standard_ simsense, but what about a new, experimental
form of simsense...this could allow all kinds of fun with "glitches" in
the program:)

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 12
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 19:49:23 U
Mail*Link® SMTP RE>>BTL chips

Snip the entire post

> Czar-I-have-read-too-much-Scifi-Eggbert


nah no such thing can't happen
Message no. 13
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@**********.UNI-OLDENBURG.DE>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 13:27:50 +0000
On 7 Feb 97 at 15:06, Bull wrote:
[snip]
> How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
> Time of the BTL?

> Here's the reason I'm asking...
[snip DS9 stuff]
> Would this work with BTL? If so, it could be something really nasty to
> pull on your players...:)

Ah... took me a while, but I found it. Check Lone Star Source Book,
page 78 (end left column through right column). Exactly that is
discussed there.
Message no. 14
From: Joel Nesbitt <joel.nesbitt@******.OXFORD.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 12:44:30 +0000
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997, Brett Borger wrote:

> >How quickly can an image be played? What is the Real Time vs. the Virtual
> >Time of the BTL?
>
> Well, seeing as how emotional respones can cause "I saw my life flash before
> my eyes..." I would say that an increased time is possible. Not necessarily
> existing...you may want to introduce it as a new technology....Write
> something up and post it to my page....:) As to the rate...I have no
> idea...But you can live a 30 year life span in those 2 seconds before an
> accident...double it to add in more detail...and you get a REALLY fast rate....
> -=SwiftOne=-
>

If the technology *were* capable of this (and I believe the Lone Star book
mentions it, at least as a rumour), would it have implications for
education/training times? More relevant if you use the training times
rules from the Companion.



* Joel Nesbitt, Exeter College, Oxford *
* "My vision: one nation, one tribe, *
* One day will come the might to move any mountain" *
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 11:15:26 -0700
Joel Nesbitt wrote:
|
| If the technology *were* capable of this (and I believe the Lone Star book
| mentions it, at least as a rumour), would it have implications for
| education/training times? More relevant if you use the training times
| rules from the Companion.

Err... ruhroh. As a GM, if I gave this technology to Lone
Star in my game I would rule that the technology is
prohibitivly expensive for the PCs. And, that the
equipment required is of sufficient size that it would be
really hard for them to steal it, and use it.

(Actually, I like the idea so it's not a matter of if, but
when :)

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 16
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:21:24 -0500
>If the technology *were* capable of this (and I believe the Lone Star book
>mentions it, at least as a rumour), would it have implications for
>education/training times? More relevant if you use the training times
>rules from the Companion.

Interesting thought, but I would have to say "no". BTL and Simsense really
don't teach anything.....taking from the "learning" sims of the SR
Companion, I would have to argue that for anything besides a totally
knowledge skill, physical experience is necessary...But then for the
knowledge skills, to make use of them, your brain has to learn new pathways
and such.....Raw Data, sure....skills......probably not...

Very cool idea for experimental tech in a run though....or even the raw
data....scientist "flash imprints" something on his assisstants mind before
getting killed....the assistant keeps getting these headaches, and weird
memories, meanwhile someone is trying to kill/capture him....


I like it.
-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 17
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 19:42:09 EST
On Sun, 9 Feb 1997 20:21:24 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>If the technology *were* capable of this (and I believe the Lone Star
>book
>>mentions it, at least as a rumour), would it have implications for
>>education/training times? More relevant if you use the training
>times
>>rules from the Companion.
>
>Interesting thought, but I would have to say "no". BTL and Simsense
>really
>don't teach anything.....taking from the "learning" sims of the SR
>Companion, I would have to argue that for anything besides a totally
>knowledge skill, physical experience is necessary...But then for the
>knowledge skills, to make use of them, your brain has to learn new
>pathways
>and such.....Raw Data, sure....skills......probably not...

Except that all the teaching chips for active skills is demonstrate
visually how an action is performed...how to conduct such and such a
sword maneuver, how best to aim the gun, etc...things a "real" instructor
would be doing...theyl aren't probably as effective, but, how many people
learn guitar from a video tape ( I knew at least one guy)

>
>Very cool idea for experimental tech in a run though....or even the
>raw
>data....scientist "flash imprints" something on his assisstants mind
>before
>getting killed....the assistant keeps getting these headaches, and
>weird
>memories, meanwhile someone is trying to kill/capture him....
>

hmmm...I'm filing that away for later:)

>
>I like it.
>-=SwiftOne=-
>
--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 18
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:09:25 -0500
>>don't teach anything.....taking from the "learning" sims of the SR
>>Companion, I would have to argue that for anything besides a totally
>>knowledge skill, physical experience is necessary...But then for the
>>knowledge skills, to make use of them, your brain has to learn new
>>pathways
>>and such.....Raw Data, sure....skills......probably not...
>Except that all the teaching chips for active skills is demonstrate
>visually how an action is performed...how to conduct such and such a
>sword maneuver, how best to aim the gun, etc...things a "real" instructor
>would be doing...theyl aren't probably as effective, but, how many people
>learn guitar from a video tape ( I knew at least one guy)

Alright....so your "viewing" time is reduced....it still takes the same
"practice" time to you. Maybe you save 30 minutes.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 19
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Sun, 9 Feb 1997 22:05:05 EST
On Sun, 9 Feb 1997 23:09:25 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>>don't teach anything.....taking from the "learning" sims of the SR
>>>Companion, I would have to argue that for anything besides a totally
>>>knowledge skill, physical experience is necessary...But then for the
>>>knowledge skills, to make use of them, your brain has to learn new
>>>pathways
>>>and such.....Raw Data, sure....skills......probably not...
>>Except that all the teaching chips for active skills is demonstrate
>>visually how an action is performed...how to conduct such and such a
>>sword maneuver, how best to aim the gun, etc...things a "real"
>instructor
>>would be doing...theyl aren't probably as effective, but, how many
>people
>>learn guitar from a video tape ( I knew at least one guy)
>
>Alright....so your "viewing" time is reduced....it still takes the
>same
>"practice" time to you. Maybe you save 30 minutes.
>
Actually, I would think that having someone, anyone just demonstrate a
technique for you should speed up learning time immeasurably, as opposed
to fumbling it out on your own, anyway. Yes, you still have to practice,
but that practice would probably be performed while "training" under the
program's supervision, so that you could see how it was done, how you
were doing it, compare, etc...We are, after all, talking about a program
that is more or less interactive and should be at least partially capable
of responding to the user's actions, or would allow the user to go back
and review a particular section of the program, again, so that they could
check for their mistakes.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 20
From: "Steven A. Tinner" <bluewizard@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 01:02:46 -0500
> >Interesting thought, but I would have to say "no". BTL and Simsense
> >really
> >don't teach anything.....taking from the "learning" sims of the SR
> >Companion, I would have to argue that for anything besides a totally
> >knowledge skill, physical experience is necessary...But then for the
> >knowledge skills, to make use of them, your brain has to learn new
> >pathways
> >and such.....Raw Data, sure....skills......probably not...

Umm . . . this just changed.
If you haven't picked up Missions, do so.
Damn fine collection of scenarios. They're designed for certain runners -
ala. Lone Star, Doc Wagon teams, but IMO, can be easily converted to other
games.

Now Then . . .
!!!!!!!!!!!!!SPOILERS!!!!!!!!!!!

















The first scenario in Missions deals with a new gang, The Futuremen.
All the members have been "programmed" by Renraku to instantly obey
commands given via cyber radio implanted when the gangers come into a
street clinic for a few mods.
Renraku even goes as far as to train a Lone Star undercover cop to use a
different gun.
He responds with a killing shot to the head whenever the word "Atira!" is
given through his cyberradio.
(BTW - anyone translate that? Does it mean "Listen, or Attention" like I
think it does?"

So apparently you can be trained/educated via sim, in conjunction with
drugs.

Steven A. Tinner
bluewizard@*****.com
http://www.ncweb.com./users/bluewizard
"Thoughtlash, Soldevei Digger, Timewalk! AAAAHHHH!!!!!"
Message no. 21
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:50:56 -0500
>>Alright....so your "viewing" time is reduced....it still takes the
>>"practice" time to you. Maybe you save 30 minutes.
>Actually, I would think that having someone, anyone just demonstrate a
>technique for you should speed up learning time immeasurably, as opposed

Agreed....but I thought that that was the idea behind the training chips
from the SR Companion that we were discussing. How would having them "show"
you at a faster speed improve your learning time? The bottleneck time-wise
is the brain learning new pathways, and the muscles learning to respond,
etc....You could easily "feel" like you had practiced for hours at a time,
but to get the actual benefit, you would have to actually do it.

The interactive chip would help....and that's why they put it in the Sr
Companion.


-=SwiftOne=-
(ShadowLore FAQ Alpha online at Shadowrun Central)
(http://www.opp.psu.edu/~bxb24/sr/srcenter.htm)
Message no. 22
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:16:47 -0500
>So apparently you can be trained/educated via sim, in conjunction with
>drugs.

This has been an old thought given in several novels....the training I don't
disagree with....I was arguing about timing....you can't become trained in a
"natural" skill at great levels in ten minutes. Trained by sim, yes.

(In fact, In the run I'll be leading on Sunday, the runners have to kidnap
this one guy who has a skillsoft system, so a rival corp can "program" him
to leak data to them through it. The trouble is keeping anyone (victim
included) from being aware of the snatch.)

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 23
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 18:55:11 EST
On Mon, 10 Feb 1997 17:50:56 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>>Alright....so your "viewing" time is reduced....it still takes the
>>>"practice" time to you. Maybe you save 30 minutes.
>>Actually, I would think that having someone, anyone just demonstrate
>a
>>technique for you should speed up learning time immeasurably, as
>opposed
>
>Agreed....but I thought that that was the idea behind the training
>chips
>from the SR Companion that we were discussing. How would having them
>"show"
>you at a faster speed improve your learning time? The bottleneck
>time-wise
>is the brain learning new pathways, and the muscles learning to
>respond,
>etc....You could easily "feel" like you had practiced for hours at a
>time,
>but to get the actual benefit, you would have to actually do it.

I think the simsense would only show you how to do the action, by
simulation or whatever, doesn't really matter. Demonstration by any means
is always going to speed up the amount of time you spend learning
something because you don't spend as much time puzzling the idea out, you
simply have to learn it.

--
-Canthros
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 24
From: "Arno R. Lehmann" <arlehma@***.NET>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 02:32:36 +0100
On Fri, 7 Feb 1997 13:14:01 -0700, David Buehrer wrote:

>Cruel. I like it :) Well, since FASA has never said (to
>my knowledge) you'd be well within your rights to have
>LoneStar develop the technology (or pay someone else to do
>it). It would certainly save them a lot of money, even if
>they can only double the percieved time (20 years served in
>10). And they would only have to provide bed wards and
>attendants to flip the "patients", and some electrical
>stimuli to exercise their muscles.

This could be programmed in the chips, then it's perfect.

>
>To cool, I'm gonna have to use this one :)
>
>-David

Me too.

--
Arno
*********************************************************************
Be careful when replying to this mail - check the address !!!
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Message no. 25
From: Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:32:42 -0500
>I think the simsense would only show you how to do the action, by
>simulation or whatever, doesn't really matter. Demonstration by any means
>is always going to speed up the amount of time you spend learning
>something because you don't spend as much time puzzling the idea out, you
>simply have to learn it.

okay.....so how are we saying that the "speeded" up simsense is saving you
time over the non-speeded up version? I'm not arguing that the
demonstration isn't needed...that's the whole idea behind the teaching sim
in SR Companion.

-=SwiftOne=-
Message no. 26
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 06:59:12 -0700
Drekhead wrote:
|
| > Cruel. I like it :) Well, since FASA has never said (to
| > my knowledge) you'd be well within your rights to have
| > LoneStar develop the technology (or pay someone else to do
| > it). It would certainly save them a lot of money, even if
| > they can only double the percieved time (20 years served in
| > 10). And they would only have to provide bed wards and
| > attendants to flip the "patients", and some electrical
| > stimuli to exercise their muscles.
|
| Well, maybe being sentenced to serve three life sentences will
| finally be possible. I never did understand that ....

People that are sentanced to life sentances are eligible
for parole after a certain number of years, depending on
the state (and country). A person sentanced to 3
consequtive life terms might be eligible for parole after,
say, 60 years.

Which brings up a sticky point. If the BTL/Simsense
technology for this were developed and used by Lone Star
(or any other prison) how would parole be handled?

-David
--
/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\ dbuehrer@****.org /^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\/^\
"His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking
alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free."
~~~http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm~~~~
Message no. 27
From: L Canthros <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 17:38:21 EST
On Tue, 11 Feb 1997 11:32:42 -0500 Brett Borger <bxb121@***.EDU> writes:
>>I think the simsense would only show you how to do the action, by
>>simulation or whatever, doesn't really matter. Demonstration by any
>means
>>is always going to speed up the amount of time you spend learning
>>something because you don't spend as much time puzzling the idea out,
>you
>>simply have to learn it.
>
>okay.....so how are we saying that the "speeded" up simsense is saving
>you
>time over the non-speeded up version? I'm not arguing that the
>demonstration isn't needed...that's the whole idea behind the teaching
>sim
>in SR Companion.
>
>-=SwiftOne=-
>
I don't think that was my original thought...let me check...oops...I
think I didn't read too closely the first time:) I'd have to agree with
you, other than maybe speeding up how quickly it could be demostrated,
they couldn't "learn" the skill that way...

--
-Canthros-the-"boy-do-I-feel-dumb-now"-shapeshifter-mage
If any man wishes peace, canthros1@***.com
let him prepare for war. lobo1@****.com
--Roman proverb
http://members.aol.com/canthros1/
Message no. 28
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 12:14:47 +0100
David Buehrer said on 6:59/11 Feb 97...

> Which brings up a sticky point. If the BTL/Simsense technology for this
> were developed and used by Lone Star (or any other prison) how would
> parole be handled?

Isn't parole often based on good behavior? (Granite?) If so, there'd be
little chance of it if simsense technology is used as a sentence. Unless
it'd be fully interactive, where they put the perp in situations where his
behavior in a RL jail can be assessed.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I can cut it. I can paste it.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 29
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: BTL chips
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 04:36:49 -0700
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> >...... how would parole be handled?
> Isn't parole often based on good behavior? (Granite?) If so, there'd be
> little chance of it if simsense technology is used as a sentence.

Actually good behavior is one of the things early parole acquisition is based
on..Continued good behavior keeps a parolee from returning to
prison..What would dissappear in the simulated incarciration would be
"Good Time" this is time take off of an inmate's sentance in exchange
for good behavior while incarcerated.."Good Time" is really a
function of overcrowded facilities and therefore would no longer be
needed as such in the sim-prison..Unless of course the person is
hardwired into the VR setting and must spend realtime in VR but that
doesn't make much sense..

> Unless
> it'd be fully interactive, where they put the perp in situations where his
> behavior in a RL jail can be assessed.

OF course if [as was the case in StarTrek:DS9] the program can be
modified by the computers running it as it is run due to actions and
reactions of the subject..Early parole could be accomidated in this
manner...

-------------------------------GRANITE
=================================================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about BTL chips, you may also be interested in:

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