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Message no. 1
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:49:15 +1000
You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
Seems a little odd to me.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 2
From: Mark Kalvin <Sahtori@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 05:56:48 -0500
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au
wrote the following:

<<<You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
Seems a little odd to me.>>>

To which I can only say, "Hey, he has a point there!"
Message no. 3
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 11:00:31 GMT
Damion Milliken
wrote:

<<<You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
Seems a little odd to me.>>>

I remember seeing this somewhere, aren't bug spirits a special case?
Something along the lines of, they're not really spirits of bugs, merely
the nearest thing to them that we can understand is a bug?


Maybe this was in the back of one of the bug adventures??

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
Message no. 4
From: Mark Kalvin <Sahtori@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 06:01:15 -0500
Hey, does anyone out there want to read an interesting Story? If so, drop me
some mail and I will post it to you. I am working on a Shadowrun novel and I
am using shorter stories as a warmup.

Sahtori
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <bob@**.NTU.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 20:50:14 +0930
Damion Milliken wrote:
>
> You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
> rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
> totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
> Seems a little odd to me.
>
What makes you think there aren't any? I have nature spirits appear as
animals appropriate to the region quite often... Futhermore, the more
mainstream spirits have a different sort of attitude to these things than
the invae.

--
Robert Watkins bob@**.ntu.edu.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Finger me for my geek code
Message no. 6
From: Bob Ooton <topcat@**.CENCOM.NET>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Sun, 19 Mar 1995 13:10:06 -0600
Mark Kalvin writes...

>Hey, does anyone out there want to read an interesting Story? If so, drop me
>some mail and I will post it to you. I am working on a Shadowrun novel and I
>am using shorter stories as a warmup.

I, too, am at work on a novel. I would very much like to read some of the
short stories you have written. If you would send them to
<topcat@******.net> or post them to someone's home page, I would be grateful.

-- Bob Ooton <topcat@******.net>
Message no. 7
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:28:57 +1000
P Ward writes:

> I remember seeing this somewhere, aren't bug spirits a special case?
> Something along the lines of, they're not really spirits of bugs, merely
> the nearest thing to them that we can understand is a bug?

Well, maybe, but it doesn't really explain why each different insect shaman
summons a different type of spirit, while all the 'normal' shamans summon
the regular Nature Spirits.

> Maybe this was in the back of one of the bug adventures??

Hmm, I don't remember it in any of the modules, could it be in Bug City (I
have yet to see that)?

----------------------
Robert Watkins writes:

> > totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
> > Seems a little odd to me.
>
> What makes you think there aren't any? I have nature spirits appear as
> animals appropriate to the region quite often... Futhermore, the more
> mainstream spirits have a different sort of attitude to these things than
> the invae.

While normal nature spirits might asppear as animals appropriate to their
domain, the insects appear as animals (well, insects really) appropriate to
their summoners totem. How come insect shamans don't summon hearth spirits
and all the other normal Nature Spirits?

Are insect shamans _so_ different that they even have to have different
spirits come when they call?

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 8
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 14:37:05 +1000
Robert Watkins (quoting Damion) writes:

> > totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
> > Seems a little odd to me.
>
> What makes you think there aren't any? I have nature spirits appear as
> animals appropriate to the region quite often... Futhermore, the more
> mainstream spirits have a different sort of attitude to these things than
> the invae.

Damion replies:

> While normal nature spirits might asppear as animals appropriate to their
> domain, the insects appear as animals (well, insects really) appropriate to
> their summoners totem. How come insect shamans don't summon hearth spirits
> and all the other normal Nature Spirits?

We played that these spirits did exist, but could only be brought to
the normal world by going to the home metaplane of the Totem, and
asking for them.

> Are insect shamans _so_ different that they even have to have different
> spirits come when they call?

Good question; but I'd say they could summon up the normal spirits if they
wanted to. I suspect in our game, there may have been some additional
risk of the insect shaman coming to the attention of some other totem if
she tried this. But I'm only second-guessing our GM...

luke
Message no. 9
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 10:03:48 GMT
Damion said :-

> Hmm, I don't remember it in any of the modules, could it be in Bug City (I
> have yet to see that)?

It wasn't bug city, I just have this vague memory of somebody arguing this
before and stating it, it might have been one of the modules, or it could
be a nightmare-like memory from too many archive sessions ;-)

> Archives. I tried to do what you're doing now once myself. Only took me two
> past logs to give it up though. Reading all that stuff must take you
> forever. (Is there any good stuff in them BTW? :-))

Yeah, loads of good stuff, if you can speed your time up by learning to ignore
the best christmas wishes, etc.

I've adopted a lot of stuff from them. Can;t remember where most of it came
from though.

Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)

with help from his his mate; Hides-At-The-Back
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 11:32:25 +0100
>You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
>rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
>totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
>Seems a little odd to me.

Might be because insect spirits aren't of the same kind of spirit as nature
spirits. Maybe FASA just called them "insect shamans" because they have
similarities to "normal" shamans. Hm. That brings me to another question:
what totem modifiers would an insect shaman get? He'd probably get +2 dice
for summoning the spirit of his totem, but what about the Magic Pool dice?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
<te huur: 1 lege regel (opschrift naar keuze), hier te bezichtigen.>
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 11
From: P Ward <P.Ward@**.CF.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:46:29 GMT
> Might be because insect spirits aren't of the same kind of spirit as nature
> spirits. Maybe FASA just called them "insect shamans" because they have
> similarities to "normal" shamans.

Sounds good to me, just a word thing.

> That brings me to another question: what totem modifiers would an insect
> shaman get? He'd probably get +2 dice for summoning the spirit of his
> totem, but what about the Magic Pool dice?

I take it you have them summoning other spirits then? Otherwise the two
extra dice is a bit silly (mind you, anything that makes insect shamans
harder is good in my book, I'll teach those PC's to laugh at toxics...)

There were a few totem bonuses floating round on the Web and FTP sites,
I remember seeing Ant, who got +2 dice for casting any spell while
underground. (I think)


Maybe a flat bonus for all insect shaman's in their favoured environment?
we just run it as normal, wasps always seemed like nasty, beligerent
little bugs, so they get +2 Combat spells.


But what about the disadvantages huh? That the important thing for PC's,
would you give them disadvantages that PC's can exploit? No way chummer,
not in my game, no loopholes for PC's, blood and sweat or nothing...


Phil (Runs-With-The-Pack)
with special help from Runs-Away-Screaming
Message no. 12
From: robert frazine <shade@*****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 09:56:43 -0500
On Sun, 19 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> You all know how insects are totems, right? And there are insect spirits,
> rhhgt? Well, how come there aren't spirits for other totems? We have the Fly
> totem, and Fly spirits, and we have the Bear totem, but no Bear spirits.
> Seems a little odd to me.
>
> ###
Somewhere in Bug City, they mention this. I believe it is only
in the chatter on the bbs...but I could be wrong...anyway the gist of
the conversation is that Insect shamans AREN'T....shamans that
is...according to the post...they are something else...something
different...I haven't finished the book yet so I haven't got to the GM
section to find out what they mean...but the idea within the book is
that you can't summon a bear spirit, because they don't have to obey the
summoner, and therefore don't...Of course this is all my opinion.

Rob
>
Message no. 13
From: "<Great Czar>" <GreatCzar@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 20 Mar 1995 12:13:54 -0500
On Mon, 20 Mar 1995 wrote:
>Are insect shamans _so_ different that they even have to have >different
>spirits come when they call?

Perhaps, they are. Insect spirits are different to say the least. Their auras
are dark (whatever that means). Most other spirits recognize them as being
bad, if one believes Burning Bright. They recognize that they should not be
here. The bugs seek to expand the hive single mindedly, no matter what the
cost to nature. Why would they be given access to nature spirits, if they
will only end up destroying the natural balance of nature. Remember as well,
the queen is the insect shamans source of power. An ant queen will have contro
l over ant spirits, a fly queen will have contol over fly spirits, etc. The
queen can also be summoned into this world. In general , I would not call her
a totem but rather something akin to a totem, a source of the shamans power.

In Double Exposure there were a few toxic spirits that were being used by the
hive. This could indicate that they can summon toxic spirits.Then again, I
don't know if this was the exception or the rule. I have yet to see Bug City
so I can't speak of its contents. Perhaps, the answer lies there.

Nature spirits are natural to this world, while it seems that insect spirits
are alien to this world. In Burning Bright it was indicated that the home
world of the insect spirits is too crowded. There is not enough room for
growth of the hive. So when the mana is right they migrate across the astral
planes to our world where they can continue their expansion of the hive. This
was stated by a mantid spirit, who knows if it is the truth. If true, it does
indicate that the bugs are not in the strictest sense of the word a totem,
such as bear. Bear is the essence of bear, the true archetype of all
beardom:) Bear is the source of power for all Bear Shamans. The insect queen
seems to be the source of power for the insect shaman. There could be a dozen
ant queens or more, each giving power to different shaman.

I don't know about spider, however. I heard that spider is treated
differently in bug city. But I don't have the book.
Great Czar
Message no. 14
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Wed, 22 Mar 1995 11:47:34 +1000
P Ward writes:

> > Might be because insect spirits aren't of the same kind of spirit as nature
> > spirits. Maybe FASA just called them "insect shamans" because they
have
> > similarities to "normal" shamans.
>
> Sounds good to me, just a word thing.

Yeah, that answers it.

> > That brings me to another question: what totem modifiers would an insect
> > shaman get? He'd probably get +2 dice for summoning the spirit of his
> > totem, but what about the Magic Pool dice?

The insect shaman in Queen Euphoria has no bonususes and no penalties. It
mentioned it somewhere. Kinda like a Coyote shaman, or a hermetic with a
different slant (instead of summoning elementals he can summon bug spirits).
But does it answer this in Bug City? (I'll have to go and buy that damn book
soon.)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+$ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 15
From: Dustin McCraw <dmccraw@*****.AIX.CALPOLY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bug's
Date: Wed, 29 Mar 1995 11:14:53 -0800
In a previous letter, you stated in beatiful words:
>
>Hey, does anyone out there want to read an interesting Story? If so, drop me
>some mail and I will post it to you. I am working on a Shadowrun novel and I
>am using shorter stories as a warmup.
>
>Sahtori
>

I would love to see a copy.

--
Give blood, play rollerhockey
To walk is human, to skate divine
TSR Lightnings w/ ABEC 3's and Hyper PowerEdge's
Dustin J. McCraw dmccraw@****.aix.calpoly.edu
Message no. 16
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Bugs
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 1995 12:28:54 +0200
>Also, forgive the ED link but, are the bugs the
>for runners of the Horrors?

No. In ED there are also bugs (invae), and they came before the Horrors; the
Horrors simply did the same with them as they did with the Namegivers...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat wilt ik nou effe kwijt!
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 17
From: "k.lin-student-civ-ghostgum-93087284" <kwlin@***.itd.uts.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 1995 12:53:08 +1100 (EST)
Mark Steedman said on 21 Nov...

> Ok. Yes i think for the time being we have enough bugs. The Gencon
> report that someone posted suggesting there might be Lofwry/Tir
> Taingire solutions in 'Threats' sounds about the speed we need more
> data. We certainly have enough bug stats.
> [just try a FASA standard force 10 queen with Grimoire armour, DE
> hive queens protection and Bug city attack skill, now give it 10
> points of spirit energy. Now try and work out how anything/or anyone
> except Harlequin and co who don't follow the rules, can
> reallistically kill the thing]

Geeeessshhh!... what a can of worms I've open up. I suppose I had
better clarify myself.

Personally, I agree that there are enough statistics on bugs [although
more would be appreciated :) ]. When I said "We want more bugs..." I
meant that I would like to see more plots developed around the insect
invasion. For example, what does UCAS do now (with Chicago)? What is
the progress on the solution from Tir/Lofwry (hinted at in Bug City)?

Sorry guys/girls/others if I gave the impression that I like to use
waves of bugs to kill off characters (hey, my PhsAd was in hospital
for three months after Queen Euphoria).

Anyway lets get back to the fun of watching those crazy, wacky funsters
argue about Smart(?)gun Links on Bows etc.

Fade to the Black...

Kin
Message no. 18
From: Edward Paul <doyle@******.edu>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 01:28:31 -1000
On Sun, 15 Sep 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Their only real vulnerabilities are that they're just begging for a Mana
> Bolt with that Willpower of 2, and their vulnerability to insecticides.
> If you have neither, bring a physad with you.

(Don't quote me on the next paragraph, I don't have the book on me:)

Or you can take the astral route. Since they are astral beings,
their attributes in the astral plane is equal to their force, and doesn't
include their spirit energy (except for reation). Plus, they don't have
their armor there.

Of course, they are fast as hell and they have an impressive
threat rating. One way of countering it is by overwhelming it through
numbers. Any mage with a high charisma and great conjuring abilities can
summon a whole squad of attack watchers to whittle away at any high combat
pool the bug may have. Risky, but it may work...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edward Paul University of Hawaii at Manoa
E-Mail: doyle@******.edu
World Wide Web: http://www2.hawaii.edu/~doyle
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: "Mark Steedman" <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 13:42:42 GMT
Edward Paul writes

> (Don't quote me on the next paragraph, I don't have the book on me:)
>
easiest way to comment.

> Or you can take the astral route. Since they are astral beings,
> their attributes in the astral plane is equal to their force, and doesn't
> include their spirit energy (except for reation).
correct.
> Plus, they don't have
> their armor there.
>
Sorry but the true and queen spirits get their armour astral as well,
terrible i know

> Of course, they are fast as hell and they have an impressive
> threat rating. One way of countering it is by overwhelming it through
> numbers. Any mage with a high charisma and great conjuring abilities can
> summon a whole squad of attack watchers to whittle away at any high combat
> pool the bug may have. Risky, but it may work...
>
This tactic works on most things, including PC's (in style often
enough) assuming at least one attacker does a big enough damage code
to get the resistance target number up, or you can run the target out
of dice.

Mark
Message no. 20
From: "Sascha Pabst" <Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.DE>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 17:45:53 +0000
On 16 Sep 96 at 13:42, Mark Steedman wrote:
> Edward Paul writes
[snip]
> > Of course, they are fast as hell and they have an impressive
> > threat rating. One way of countering it is by overwhelming it through
> > numbers. Any mage with a high charisma and great conjuring abilities can
> > summon a whole squad of attack watchers to whittle away at any high combat
> > pool the bug may have. Risky, but it may work...

> This tactic works on most things, including PC's (in style often
> enough) assuming at least one attacker does a big enough damage code
> to get the resistance target number up, or you can run the target out
> of dice.
greates advantage is that since astral combat is handled like melee combat,
the "friends in melee" rule applies, and so even lvl 1 or 2 watchers are
_really_ helpful. And Shamans should bring with 'em spirits as well (were
possible to summon before).
So even your Charisma-4-Shaman can go into battle with 8 spirits, plus
himself, plus (maybe) an ally. Did that, liked the -4 TNM, liked the enemy's
+4TNM. Liked the shocked face of my GM :-)

Sascha
--
+---___---------+----------------------------------------+--------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst |The one who does not|
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de| learn from history |
| \___ __/ | | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| *Wearing hats is just a way of life* | through it again. |
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| - Me | G. Santayana |
+------------- http://www.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de/~jhary -----------------+
Message no. 21
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 12:17:55 +0100
Sascha Pabst said on 17:45/16 Sep 96...

> So even your Charisma-4-Shaman can go into battle with 8 spirits, plus

Sorry Sascha, but it's 5 spirits: 4 watchers, and one spirit that belongs
to the domain the target is in. A Charisma-4-mage could go in with 8
spirits.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If only I could hunt the hunter.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 22
From: Dust <rogan@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:10:44 -0400
Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in Bug
City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.

Lates,

Dust
Message no. 23
From: Tyrell Hughes <elfman@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 13:49:27 -0500
Dust wrote:
>
> Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in Bug
> City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
>
Yeah I redfined Mantis,because I didnt want my new Mantis boy being
eaten so fast.
Message no. 24
From: "Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:17:09 -0400
> Dust wrote:
> >
> > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
> Bug
> > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
> >
>
I have seen no spider spirit variants.

Galen
Message no. 25
From: Michael Broadwater <mbroadwa@*******.GLENAYRE.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:19:18 -0500
At 03:17 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Jackson, Hank wrote:
>> Dust wrote:
>> >
>> > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
>> Bug
>> > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
>> >
>>
>I have seen no spider spirit variants.
>
>Galen
>
The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)


Rasputin-the-no-fancy-middle-name-in-dashes-right-now-magekin
http://www.bcl.net/~rasputin
http://www.blackhand.org/

The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be
when you kill them. -- William Clayton
Message no. 26
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 14:29:16 -0500
At 02:19 PM 9/15/97 -0500, Michael Broadwater wrote:
#At 03:17 PM 9/15/97 -0400, Jackson, Hank wrote:
#>> Dust wrote:
#>> >
#>> > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
#>> Bug
#>> > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
#>> >
#>>
#>I have seen no spider spirit variants.
#>
#>Galen
#>
#The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)

didn't I read somewhere that the spider was considered "good"
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 27
From: Fade <runefo@***.UIO.NO>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 02:55:56 +0000
> > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in Bug
> > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.

..... well, close but not *QUITE*. Having recently played X-COM
apocalypse, I was interested in making a series of alien - like bugs.
They act very similar to insect spirits, but can also grow certain
types of organic tech... in effect, tool - using evil bugs out to
conquer the world, as opposed to bloodyminded evil bugs out to
conquer the world. I further thought of their having made a huge
organic spacecraft large enough to sustain magic. Thus it would be
able to use the 'movement' power to move it fast enough between stars
to actually go somewhere. I'm not entirely sure if I want to use them
yet, but I've made the logic framework in case I do. :)

They are, incidentally, no more advanced than humanity is, their tech
is just different, so their best bet is quiet, slow infiltration
rather than all - out attack. So a lot will happen in the shadows.
I also wondered about a MiB outfit, and a few things like that;
basically I decided on another campaign instead.
--
Fade

And the Prince of Lies said:
"To reign is worth ambition, though in Hell:
Better to reign in hell than to serve in heaven."
-John Milton, Paradise Lost
Message no. 28
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 03:29:46 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-15 15:37:29 EDT, you write:

> #The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs.
:)
>
> didn't I read somewhere that the spider was considered "good"

Here in our home game, we have two definitions of Spider. There is the
normal Spider shaman who lurks in the background and does things from afar.
Then there is the toxic Spider shaman, this one is more active in their
pursuits and is more in the open.

"Spider saved the Hopi, then taught them how to kill."
Message no. 29
From: Ray & Tamara <macey@***.BRISNET.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:29:18 +1000
> > > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
> > Bug
> > > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
> > >
> >
> I have seen no spider spirit variants.

Weren't the bug spirit like things in the First Shadowrun novel trilogy
spiders?

NightRain.

-----------------------------------------------------
| The universe is a big place, and whatever happens,|
| You will not be missed |
-----------------------------------------------------

EMAIL: macey@***.brisnet.org.au
Message no. 30
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:31:26 +0100
Dust said on 12:10/15 Sep 97...

> Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in Bug
> City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.

I wrote up a butterfly totem once, and there are one or two insect spirits
in the Grimoire that are not in Bug City (termite, I think).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 31
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:31:26 +0100
Jackson, Hank said on 15:17/15 Sep 97...

> I have seen no spider spirit variants.

That's because there are NO spider spirits, for the simple reason that
spiders aren't insects. (Why isn't Eve Forward around when you need
her...? :) Spider as a totem is available to PCs, it's in Bug City
somewhere.

Although one thing that's "wrong" with this reasoning is that Burning
Bright talks about giant millipedes IIRC, which aren't insects either.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Go see the profiteer
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 32
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:47:15 +0100
|The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)

Of course they're bugs.
they're not insects, but they ARE bugs.
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 33
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 21:49:56 +0100
|#The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)
|
|didn't I read somewhere that the spider was considered "good"

In respect to eating insect spirits for breakfast, dinner and tea, yes.

But there are other ideas as well.

(look at the "secrets of power" trilogy for an "evil" spider totem.)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: niteGlo Messiah <levbar@*******.BERGEN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:41:47 -0400
-------_------__---__--___--__--___--___--___---__--___--__---__---__--__
--When I'm God everyone dies
-----------___---__---__---__----_---__---__---__---___---__---__---__---_

On Mon, 15 Sep 1997, Jackson, Hank wrote:

> > Dust wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
> > Bug
> > > City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.
> > >
> >
> I have seen no spider spirit variants.
>
> Galen
>
A spider is not an insect. It's an arachnid.

Metal Phoenix
Message no. 35
From: Mike Bobroff <AirWisp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:16:43 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-16 06:48:46 EDT, you write:

> That's because there are NO spider spirits, for the simple reason that
> spiders aren't insects. (Why isn't Eve Forward around when you need
> her...? :) Spider as a totem is available to PCs, it's in Bug City
> somewhere.

Has anyone ever thought of trying to summon a totemic spirit. We have the
shaman perform a ritual conjuring to pull one up, and the effect is always
interesting, and different every time (unless you get the true name of the
first one you summoned to begin with).

> Although one thing that's "wrong" with this reasoning is that Burning
> Bright talks about giant millipedes IIRC, which aren't insects either.

Ah .. but people have lumped them together in the same category ... and
belief is all that matters.
Message no. 36
From: Gabriel Sims <grendel_22@*******.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 11:35:03 PDT
Ok, now you've done it...

>That's because there are NO spider spirits, for the simple reason >that
spiders aren't insects. (Why isn't Eve Forward around when you >need
her...? :) Spider as a totem is available to PCs, it's in Bug >City
somewhere.

>Although one thing that's "wrong" with this reasoning is that Burning
>Bright talks about giant millipedes IIRC, which aren't insects >either.

COME ON!!! Spoilers space people, I'm still reading Burning Bright.
<shakes head>

Bio-Hazard

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 37
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:51:42 -0700
---Dust wrote:
>
> Anyone come up with any more insect spirit variants like the ones in
Bug
> City like beetle, firefly, and cicada? Just wondering.

Double Exposure spoilers below

S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S

B
E
L
O
W

I
N

O
T
H
E
R

W
O
R
D
S

D
O
W
N

H
E
R
E

The module Double Exposure includes some Dragonfly Spirit Larva stats.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Fearless Leader of the Shadowrun Trading Card Game Mailing List
Web Page: Poisoned Elves at www.primenet.com/~gamemstr

"You're calling me Bitch like it's a bad thing."
--> CrapGame during the Drive in the Country tournament

_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 38
From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:48:28 +0000
> The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)

Spiders arn't bugs ? ok so they are arachnids (or whatever the word
is) but isn't that pretty much a bug ? atleast I have always looked
at them that way and will continue to do so ... Spiders are
disgusting little bugs to be killed on sight ...

/Stefan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frag you and the datastream you came on!" - Sinjin the decker
------------------------------------------------------------------------
... E-Mail .............................. casanova@***.passagen.se ...
... HomePage .............................. http://hsl.home.ml.org ...
... ICQ .................................................. 1403212 ...
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 39
From: Justin Pinnow <vanyel@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:49:53 -0400
> From: Stefan <casanova@******.PASSAGEN.SE>
> Date: Tuesday, September 16, 1997 9:48 PM

> > The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't
bugs. :)

> Spiders arn't bugs ? ok so they are arachnids (or whatever the word
> is) but isn't that pretty much a bug ? atleast I have always looked
> at them that way and will continue to do so ... Spiders are
> disgusting little bugs to be killed on sight ...

First of all, please quote the author of the post you are replying to. As
far as the bugs reference made above, there needs to be a small
clarification.

Spiders are bugs, but they are not insects. All bug spirits are insects in
Shadowrun. Thus, if it's not an insect, it's not a bug spirit (aka insect
spirit). Thus, when the above statement was made, the author was referring
to bug spirits when he/she/it used the term "bugs".

> /Stefan

Justin :)
Message no. 40
From: George H Metz <wolfstar@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 19:50:31 EDT
On Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:36:51 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:
>#I have (as I mentioned before) created a Spider Totem that follows the
>#"benevolet" concept, though in general, Spiders are all Evil, Nasty,
Bad
>#and should be crushed whenever possible! :]
>
>Don't tell me that Big Burly Bull is afraid of a little spider!

Why not? Then again, I have more spiders living within 20 feet of my bed
than I can count. I've got 4 spiders who made webs on the screen door
leading to my back porch.

TRIVIA FUN-FACT!!! Daddy-Long-Legs spiders produce the most lethal
natural poison known to mankind; however, their mandibles lack the size
and strength necessary to pierce human skin.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled shadowbabble. =)

--
Wolfstar - wolfstar@****.com - Home Page -
http://members.aol.com/w0lfstar

"If you took the IQ's of everyone here and converted it to a temperature,
you could
lightly toast a marshmallow." - CHS Class of '93 Yearbook quote.

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Message no. 41
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 21:07:01 -0400
In a message dated 97-09-16 05:30:55 EDT, Hank.Jackson@*********.COM
(Jackson, Hank) writes:

> I have seen no spider spirit variants.
> Galen

Something that we had happen here is Spider is also a thief of sorts. With
the bonuses to all spirits that her shamans have, the one that we had in the
game (Webster-come-Farseer) had a bad habit of "Quest of True Aura"ing any
that he encountered, then going into a control test. If, or rather once
(hey, he was good), usurped control, the spirit in question "quick coccooned"
into something else, retaining most of the original statistics, and just
taking on a new "attitude". The best one he ever got was a Beetle Spirit
that the party now calls "Masada". He's also snaired a Fly (forgot it's
name) and an entire Firefly Clan/Group.

-K
Message no. 42
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 16:37:32 +1000
At 21:47 15/09/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>|The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)
>
>Of course they're bugs.
>they're not insects, but they ARE bugs.

<anal retentive>
Well... actually... it's a common misconception that insects are bugs. In
fact of the 25 orders in the Class Insecta, only the Order Hemipter is
actually bugs. So, not only are spiders not insects - insects are, mostly,
not bugs.
</anal retentive>

Nah, frag it. A bug is whatever I point at and go "Ugh! A bug!"

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
Message no. 43
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:31:54 +0100
Gabriel Sims said on 11:35/16 Sep 97...

> >Although one thing that's "wrong" with this reasoning is that Burning
> >Bright talks about giant millipedes IIRC, which aren't insects >either.
>
> COME ON!!! Spoilers space people, I'm still reading Burning Bright.
> <shakes head>

Okay. My reply to this follows after a lot of blank lines...



















This enough?

Giant millipede are only mentioned in ONE sentence, I believe. Which is
why I didn't include a spoiler space in the first place -- they're not
part of the plot, but I guess Gabriel didn't want to find that out yet.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zijn generatie twijfelt, maar weet niet eens waaraan.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

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Message no. 44
From: Bull <chaos@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:10:20 -0400
At 12:31 PM 9/17/97 +0100, Gurth wrote these timeless words:
>Gabriel Sims said on 11:35/16 Sep 97...
>
>> >Although one thing that's "wrong" with this reasoning is that
Burning
>> >Bright talks about giant millipedes IIRC, which aren't insects >either.
>>
>> COME ON!!! Spoilers space people, I'm still reading Burning Bright.
>> <shakes head>
>
>Okay. My reply to this follows after a lot of blank lines...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>This enough?
>
>Giant millipede are only mentioned in ONE sentence, I believe. Which is
>why I didn't include a spoiler space in the first place -- they're not
>part of the plot, but I guess Gabriel didn't want to find that out yet.
>
Ya know... that just brings to mind some damned hideous flesh form
images... Namely 'm picturing a gigass Troll Fleshform taht looks a bit
like a Centaur. Troll upperbody, and a Millipede lowerbody :]

Damn, I want to throw a bug at the group now :]

Bull
--
Bull, aka Steven Ratkovich, aka Rak, aka a lot of others! :]

The Offical Celebrity Shadowrn Mailing List Welcome Ork Decker!
Fearless Leader of the Star Wars Mailing List
List Flunky of ShadowCreations, creators of the Newbies Guide,
in production now!
HOME PAGE: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/3604/home.html

"Whoever invented solataire is one sadistic son of a bitch"
-- Me, after spending 2 hours trying to win a game
Message no. 45
From: Ian White <dernhelm@*****.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 04:08:42 -0400
At 19:32 15/09/97 -0500, you wrote:
>At 21:47 15/09/97 +0100, Spike wrote:
>>|The Spider spirit totem is in bug city. Of course, spiders aren't bugs. :)
>>
>>Of course they're bugs.
>>they're not insects, but they ARE bugs.
>
><anal retentive>
>Well... actually... it's a common misconception that insects are bugs. In
>fact of the 25 orders in the Class Insecta, only the Order Hemipter is
>actually bugs. So, not only are spiders not insects - insects are, mostly,
>not bugs.
></anal retentive>

ok smartie, define a bug?

>
>Nah, frag it. A bug is whatever I point at and go "Ugh! A bug!"
>
>Chris
>
>_______________________________________________________________
>Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
><cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
>Canberra, Australia change were stopped.
>

Dernhelm

Is this reality? If so, then I prefer insantiy
Message no. 46
From: GRANITE <granite@**.NET>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:28:14 -0700
> >>Of course they're bugs.
> >>they're not insects, but they ARE bugs.
> ok smartie, define a bug?

I've done this before...
According to "The American Heritage Dictionary" Based on the new
second college edition:
Bug: 2. Any isect, spider, ect.

Ya know what..Bugbear is defined in this dictionary too...Weird..

> >Nah, frag it. A bug is whatever I point at and go "Ugh! A bug!"

True.. ;P


--------------------------------GRANITE
"Rock Steady"
===============================================
Lord, Grant Me The Serenity To Accept The Things I Cannot Change,
The Courage To Change The Things I Can,
And The Wisdom To Hide The Bodies Of Those People I Had To Kill
Because They Pissed Me Off.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ShadowRunner's Serenity Prayer
Message no. 47
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:03:06 -0500
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:28:14 -0700 GRANITE <granite@**.NET> writes:
>> >>Of course they're bugs.
>> >>they're not insects, but they ARE bugs.
>> ok smartie, define a bug?
>
>I've done this before...
>According to "The American Heritage Dictionary" Based on the new
>second college edition:
>Bug: 2. Any isect, spider, ect.


Scientifically, a 'bug' is any insect which has six legs and a pair of
wings which do not have 'covers' (like a beetle's). A fly is a bug. A
scarab is not.

Merriam-Webster's College Dictionary, Tenth Edition

bug, 1c: any of an order (Hemiptera and esp. its suborder Heteroptera) of
insects that have sucking mouthparts, forewings thickened at the base,
and incomplete metamorphosis and are often economic pests -- called also
/true bug/

Generically, 'bug' often simply refers to insects (as opposed to spiders
and other arachnids, arthropods, etc), but definition 1a from the same
dictionary for the same word was equivalent to what Granite used.

Canthros
Message no. 48
From: Jaymz <justin@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:03:53 -0500
At 01:03 PM 9/18/97 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:
#/true bug/

is that also needed for ED Orichalcum
--
/--justin@****.mcp.com----------------------justin@******.net--\
|Justin Bell NIC:JB3084| Time and rules are changing. |
|Simon & Schuster | Attention span is quickening. |
|Programmer | Welcome to the Information Age. |
\------------ http://www.mcp.com/people/justin/ ---------------/
Message no. 49
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:03:21 -0500
On Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:03:53 -0500 Jaymz <justin@******.NET> writes:

>#/true bug/
>
>is that also needed for ED Orichalcum


I wouldn't know, it didn't say in Webster's and I don't play ED.
:P Smart-arse.

:)

Canthros
Message no. 50
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 14:08:54 +0100
|At 01:03 PM 9/18/97 -0500, John E Pederson wrote:
|#/true bug/
|
|is that also needed for ED Orichalcum

Ouch!

*thwap*

(OK, so, I'm thwap happy...)

--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 51
From: Chris Maxfield <cmaxfiel@****.ORG.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 22:41:41 +1000
At 04:08 18/09/97 -0400, Ian White wrote:
>><anal retentive>
>>Well... actually... it's a common misconception that insects are bugs. In
>>fact of the 25 orders in the Class Insecta, only the Order Hemipter is
>>actually bugs. So, not only are spiders not insects - insects are, mostly,
>>not bugs.
>></anal retentive>
>
>ok smartie, define a bug?

<grin> I see Canthros has already done so.

Chris

_______________________________________________________________
Chris Maxfield We are restless because of incessant
<cmaxfiel@****.org.au> change, but we would be frightened if
Canberra, Australia change were stopped.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Bugs, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!