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Message no. 1
From: Andy Butcher <Fiend@*********.CO.UK>
Subject: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 14:32:54 GMT
I was just re-reading Bug City a bit more carefully than when I first got it
a week or two ago, and came across a passage in the gamesmaster's section
that's confused the hell out of me. It says that a true form bug spirit in
astral space can only fly if the insect has wings (wasp, fly, mosquito and
so on). However, if the insect doesn't have wings (most ants, for example),
it can't fly in astral space and must crawl across the earth. It then gives
reduced movement rates for non-winged bugs.

All this is fine, but it then says that they can move along vertical
surfaces (the walls of a building are mentioned) at any speed. Just _how_ do
they this, considering that the walls of a building are intangible in astral
space? Hoe do you climb up something that has no physical presence? And if
you can't, does that mean that non-winged bugs can only reach the upper
stories of a building while manifesting?

Andy Butcher | "Whether you think you will succeed or not,
PC Gamer Magazine | you are right."
Fiend@*********.co.uk | Henry Ford
Message no. 2
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 01:27:02 +1000
Andy Butcher writes:

> I was just re-reading Bug City a bit more carefully than when I first got it
> a week or two ago, and came across a passage in the gamesmaster's section
> that's confused the hell out of me. It says that a true form bug spirit in
> astral space can only fly if the insect has wings (wasp, fly, mosquito and
> so on). However, if the insect doesn't have wings (most ants, for example),
> it can't fly in astral space and must crawl across the earth. It then gives
> reduced movement rates for non-winged bugs.
>
> All this is fine, but it then says that they can move along vertical
> surfaces (the walls of a building are mentioned) at any speed. Just _how_ do
> they this, considering that the walls of a building are intangible in astral
> space? Hoe do you climb up something that has no physical presence? And if
> you can't, does that mean that non-winged bugs can only reach the upper
> stories of a building while manifesting?

Not having read the book myself, I'll nonetheless make my comments. It seems
dumb to me. If human magicians have 3-D movement in astral space, I'd surely
think creatures native to it would be able to do the same thing. Restricting
them to the ground is just silly, not to mention the fact that it causes
contradictions in the rules like the one you've described. I'd toss that
rule, it makes no sense to me. But if you wish to keep it, then you could
justify it by saying that it comes under the "world view" thing. The bug
expects itself to be able to climb up walls, but not to be able to fly. So
when it is on the astral that is exactly the way things happen.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 3
From: Renegade <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Fri, 10 Mar 1995 15:28:28 -0500
On Sat, 11 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> > All this is fine, but it then says that they can move along vertical
> > surfaces (the walls of a building are mentioned) at any speed. Just _how_ do
> > they this, considering that the walls of a building are intangible in astral
> > space? Hoe do you climb up something that has no physical presence? And if
> > you can't, does that mean that non-winged bugs can only reach the upper
> > stories of a building while manifesting?
>
> Not having read the book myself, I'll nonetheless make my comments. It seems
> dumb to me. If human magicians have 3-D movement in astral space, I'd surely
> think creatures native to it would be able to do the same thing. Restricting
> them to the ground is just silly, not to mention the fact that it causes
> contradictions in the rules like the one you've described. I'd toss that
> rule, it makes no sense to me. But if you wish to keep it, then you could
> justify it by saying that it comes under the "world view" thing. The bug
> expects itself to be able to climb up walls, but not to be able to fly. So
> when it is on the astral that is exactly the way things happen.

Also, given the intelligence factor. Aren't the bugs instincts and
knowledge nearly identical to that of the mundane version? If so, then
an ant spirit never knew how to fly in the first place.

Another thing about tossing the ruling. Limiting the direction a spirit
can go can give some balance to the game. If your mage is in a situation
depicted in _Burning_Bright_ wouldn't you rather be able to get away from
some of the sprits by flying and deal with those who fly before attacking
those on the ground? And it gives a tactical advantage if the spirits do
are non-flying.
| GAT GC 2.0
"'Tis true; there's magic in the web | d--(++) H>++ s+: g+ !p !au a- w(+) v(++)
of it;" - Othello, Act 3 Scene 4 | C++++ US P? !L !3 E N++(+++) K? w--- M-
William Shakespeare | V -po+(+++) Y+ t 5 j+>+++ R+>+++ G+>++++
| tv+ b+++ D+ B--- !e+>+++ u** h+ f+ r+
| n---- y+>$ *laugh*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Ricker | Renegade | a018907t@*********.seflin.lib.fl.us | THIS SPACE
| jricker@*******.fsu.edu | FOR RENT
Message no. 4
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 16:12:34 +1000
Renegade writes:

> Also, given the intelligence factor. Aren't the bugs instincts and
> knowledge nearly identical to that of the mundane version? If so, then
> an ant spirit never knew how to fly in the first place.

But (meta)human magicians do not know how to fly in the first place either.
Yet they can.

> Another thing about tossing the ruling. Limiting the direction a spirit
> can go can give some balance to the game. If your mage is in a situation
> depicted in _Burning_Bright_ wouldn't you rather be able to get away from
> some of the sprits by flying and deal with those who fly before attacking
> those on the ground? And it gives a tactical advantage if the spirits do
> are non-flying.

But it turns into a severe inconsistecy when considering the bit about
"astral ants can crawl up walls".

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 5
From: Renegade <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Sat, 11 Mar 1995 14:50:59 -0500
On Sat, 11 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Renegade writes:
>
> > Also, given the intelligence factor. Aren't the bugs instincts and
> > knowledge nearly identical to that of the mundane version? If so, then
> > an ant spirit never knew how to fly in the first place.
>
> But (meta)human magicians do not know how to fly in the first place either.
> Yet they can.

Sure they know how. They take their credit card down to American Airlines...
:-)

But seriously, A mage has the understanding of flight and the desire to
fly while an insect whose never heard of the Wright Brothers, wouldn't.

| GAT GC 2.0
"'Tis true; there's magic in the web | d--(++) H>++ s+: g+ !p !au a- w(+) v(++)
of it;" - Othello, Act 3 Scene 4 | C++++ US P? !L !3 E N++(+++) K? w--- M-
William Shakespeare | V -po+(+++) Y+ t 5 j+>+++ R+>+++ G+>++++
| tv+ b+++ D+ B--- !e+>+++ u** h+ f+ r+
| n---- y+>$ *laugh*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Ricker | Renegade | a018907t@*********.seflin.lib.fl.us | THIS SPACE
| jricker@*******.fsu.edu | FOR RENT
Message no. 6
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 13:10:39 +1000
Renegade writes:

> > But (meta)human magicians do not know how to fly in the first place either.
> > Yet they can.
>
> But seriously, A mage has the understanding of flight and the desire to
> fly while an insect whose never heard of the Wright Brothers, wouldn't.

Here I can use an argument which was just used against me on a different
(though similar) topic. The critters are native to the astral plane, they'll
know how it works, they'll have (as it was put to me) a degree of cunning
when it comes to astral space. While they may never have heard of human
methods of flight, they'll more than likely know the astral methods. They
will have an inbuilt knowledge of astral metaphysics, just like we have an
inbuilt (although subconcious perhaps) knowledge of phsyical plane physics.
They should be perfectly able to fly on the astral.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Sun, 12 Mar 1995 18:18:55 +0100
> Here I can use an argument which was just used against me on a different
> (though similar) topic. The critters are native to the astral plane, they'll
> know how it works, they'll have (as it was put to me) a degree of cunning
> when it comes to astral space. While they may never have heard of human
> methods of flight, they'll more than likely know the astral methods. They
> will have an inbuilt knowledge of astral metaphysics, just like we have an
> inbuilt (although subconcious perhaps) knowledge of phsyical plane physics.
> They should be perfectly able to fly on the astral.

Only problem with that is that there are no astral plane physics (your only
limitation is you ownconsiousness), so everyone (including those spirits) needs
some sort of foothold in order to use all that power. Its like being in a puddle
of quicksand, you can mold it any way you like and you can move in any direction
you feel like, but without somehing to hold on you'll drown. I hope this example
made my arhumant a bit clear :)

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 8
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 09:34:49 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> Only problem with that is that there are no astral plane physics (your only
> limitation is you ownconsiousness), so everyone (including those spirits)
> needs some sort of foothold in order to use all that power. Its like being
> in a puddle of quicksand, you can mold it any way you like and you can move
> in any direction you feel like, but without somehing to hold on you'll
> drown. I hope this example made my arhumant a bit clear :)

I see what you are arguing, and it makes sense if it were a point about
human magicians, or other astral tarvellers who were not native to the
astral plane, but I still think that a creature native to the plane should
have a little more lattitude than that. Are we going to rule that an earth
elemental cannot leave the ground in astral space next? That a water one
can't leave water? That would seem like a logical next step to me. But,
OTOH, the idea of "it is as you think" does solve the problem of why can
bugs crawl up insubstantial astral walls - because to them the walls are not
insubstantial. But then what are we going to do about windows, and how are
bugs actually going to get inside of buildings? They'll have to sit at a
door and wait untill somebody on the physical plane opens it. Are bugs that
clever? I'd say not, since they can't fly on the astral and most every other
astral creature can. Kinda makes for a few problems.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+
Message no. 9
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Mon, 13 Mar 1995 12:45:27 +0100
> > Only problem with that is that there are no astral plane physics (your only
> > limitation is you ownconsiousness), so everyone (including those spirits)
> > needs some sort of foothold in order to use all that power. Its like being
> > in a puddle of quicksand, you can mold it any way you like and you can move
> > in any direction you feel like, but without somehing to hold on you'll
> > drown. I hope this example made my argument a bit clear :)
>
> I see what you are arguing, and it makes sense if it were a point about
> human magicians, or other astral tarvellers who were not native to the
> astral plane, but I still think that a creature native to the plane should
> have a little more lattitude than that.

Well to take this metaphore a bit further :) we are native to the real world
and yet we do drown when we fall into a puddle of quicksand :) And besides
who sez that the bugs are native to the astral anyway - perhaps they come
from some other plane and just use the astral to cross over to ours ?

> Are we going to rule that an earth
> elemental cannot leave the ground in astral space next? That a water one
> can't leave water? That would seem like a logical next step to me. But,
> OTOH, the idea of "it is as you think" does solve the problem of why can
> bugs crawl up insubstantial astral walls - because to them the walls are not
> insubstantial. But then what are we going to do about windows, and how are
> bugs actually going to get inside of buildings? They'll have to sit at a
> door and wait untill somebody on the physical plane opens it. Are bugs that
> clever? I'd say not, since they can't fly on the astral and most every other
> astral creature can. Kinda makes for a few problems.

I agree this mode of thinking can really mess up your day, but I say lets
just keep things simple. Do just what FASA says - if the books say that earth
elementals cant leave the earth, then they cant. Its as easy as that - you can
always justify it as their "world view".

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++S++L+>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N+ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b++ D+ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 11:30:32 +0100
> Well to take this metaphore a bit further :) we are native to the real world
>and yet we do drown when we fall into a puddle of quicksand :)

No we don't :) The only way to drown in quicksand is by sticking your head
into it. You won't sink in deeper than waist level no matter what you try
unless you do something really stupid like go into it upside-down :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
It's like, you people, you need heroes. But if I'd agree to the job, you'd
kill me... --Bono, U2
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y?
Message no. 11
From: Martin Steffens <BDI05626@***.RHIJ.NL>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 19:30:54 +0100
On Mon, 13 Mar, Damion Milliken wrote:

> I see what you are arguing, and it makes sense if it were a point about
> human magicians, or other astral tarvellers who were not native to the
> astral plane, but I still think that a creature native to the plane should
> have a little more lattitude than that. Are we going to rule that an earth
> elemental cannot leave the ground in astral space next? That a water one
> can't leave water? That would seem like a logical next step to me. But,

But the bugs are special creatures who don't use the astral space
like the other spirits do. As BC says bugs spend a lot of time in
manifest form and behave like their "earthly cousins". This includes
the "climbing of wall" behaviour IMO. It doesn't say that the insects
cannot pass though walls (maybe they can't, I don't know), but prefer
to use the more conventional ways.
Also they may come from a special meta-plane in which it is
impossible to fly if you have no wings. If they display the insect
intelligence of their earthy counterparts, they never will discover
that they can actually fly in astral space. Whereas humans always
pictured the astral body as flying (as in: with the speed of
thought). It might be simple a case of "what you think is what you
get" (WYTIWYG :)

> OTOH, the idea of "it is as you think" does solve the problem of why can
> bugs crawl up insubstantial astral walls - because to them the walls are not
> insubstantial. But then what are we going to do about windows, and how are
> bugs actually going to get inside of buildings? They'll have to sit at a
> door and wait untill somebody on the physical plane opens it. Are bugs that
> clever? I'd say not, since they can't fly on the astral and most every other
> astral creature can. Kinda makes for a few problems.

That's a good question. Maybe they simply use small cracks like
normal insects do, and don't think about it that they physically
cannot pass through (they are used to pass through gaps) and since
the astral space poses no hindrance they can get inside.

Just my (rambling) 2 dubbeltjes :)

Martin
*********************************************************************
Martin Steffens |"Don't touch me, or I'll wound your inner child
bdi05626@***.rhij.nl | ... and then I'll kick your ass" Beavis
GeekCode v2.1
GO/SS d--(++) H- s+:+ !g p? !au a?(26) w+ v++(?) C+(++) P? E? !N>+
K- W+ M- !V -po+ Y+ t+@ !5>++ jx R++>+++ G''' tv+ b+++$ (sort
of) D++ B? e+$ (hah) u-(++) h f+ r n--- y+
*********************************************************************
Message no. 12
From: Renegade <a018907t@*********.SEFLIN.LIB.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 1995 17:33:45 -0500
On Sun, 12 Mar 1995, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Here I can use an argument which was just used against me on a different
> (though similar) topic. The critters are native to the astral plane, they'll
> know how it works, they'll have (as it was put to me) a degree of cunning
> when it comes to astral space. While they may never have heard of human
> methods of flight, they'll more than likely know the astral methods. They
> will have an inbuilt knowledge of astral metaphysics, just like we have an
> inbuilt (although subconcious perhaps) knowledge of phsyical plane physics.
> They should be perfectly able to fly on the astral.

Ah...hmmm...um...hmm...well I'm stuck there. Let's just call it game
balance :-) [In other words I concede].
| GAT GC 2.0
"'Tis true; there's magic in the web | d--(++) H>++ s+: g+ !p !au a- w(+) v(++)
of it;" - Othello, Act 3 Scene 4 | C++++ US P? !L !3 E N++(+++) K? w--- M-
William Shakespeare | V -po+(+++) Y+ t 5 j+>+++ R+>+++ G+>++++
| tv+ b+++ D+ B--- !e+>+++ u** h+ f+ r+
| n---- y+>$ *laugh*
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Ricker | Renegade | a018907t@*********.seflin.lib.fl.us | THIS SPACE
| jricker@*******.fsu.edu | FOR RENT
Message no. 13
From: Damion Milliken <adm82@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Bugs in the Astral
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 1995 21:27:55 +1000
Jani Fikouras writes:

> > bugs actually going to get inside of buildings? They'll have to sit at a
> > door and wait untill somebody on the physical plane opens it. Are bugs
> > that clever? I'd say not, since they can't fly on the astral and most
> > every other astral creature can. Kinda makes for a few problems.
>
> I agree this mode of thinking can really mess up your day, but I say lets
> just keep things simple. Do just what FASA says - if the books say that earth
> elementals cant leave the earth, then they cant. Its as easy as that - you
> can always justify it as their "world view".

I suppose you're right, I'll wait untill I actually get ahold of Bug City
and read it for myself before I take up this discussion again.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong E-mail: adm82@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+@ H s++:-- !g p0 !au a18 w+ v(?) C++ US++>+++ P+ L !3
E? N K- W M@ !V po@ Y+ t+ 5 !j R+(++) G(+)('''') !tv(--@)
b++ D B? e+ u@ h* f+ !r n----(--)@ !y+

Further Reading

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