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Message no. 1
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 08:55:56 +0200 (MEST)
I find the insect spirit writeup in "Magic in the Shadows" to be a bit
confusing (actually, I found _all_ writeups of insect spirits so far confusing,
but that's another topic...).

- All of the insect spirits are listed as having armor of some level. Is
this in _addition_ to the armor gained from the immunity from normal weapons
gained by all materialized spirits, or instead of it? And if it is the former,
how the hell do you injure these buggers (sorry about the pun) without the aid
of magic?
- Speaking of materialization, some of the spirits seem to be lacking this
power. Is this a typo? I assume that it is, since otherwise it would make the
Venom power of (for example) the male roach spirit rather silly (unless it
works even in astral space)...

- Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that flesh-forms that
are basically human-sized versions of the insects (as opposed to "good
mergers") ought to get at least some of the armor and maybe the natural attack
damage code of the true spirit, but the book says otherwise...


- Jürgen Hubert

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Message no. 2
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:13:13 +0200
According to Jürgen Hubert, on Monday 02 June 2003 08:55 the word on the
street was...

> - All of the insect spirits are listed as having armor of some level. Is
> this in _addition_ to the armor gained from the immunity from normal
> weapons gained by all materialized spirits, or instead of it?

In addition to. Yes, a Force 4 roach spirit has 16 points of armor...

> And if it
> is the former, how the hell do you injure these buggers (sorry about the
> pun) without the aid of magic?

Hit them really hard with a melee weapon, or your fists if you have nothing
else, and your Willpower -- this way they at least won't have their
Immunity to Normal Weapons. It helps if you're a troll, too :)

> - Speaking of materialization, some of the spirits seem to be lacking
> this power. Is this a typo? I assume that it is, since otherwise it
> would make the Venom power of (for example) the male roach spirit rather
> silly (unless it works even in astral space)...

AFAIK all true forms have this power. Flesh forms don't need it, because
they're physical all the time.

> - Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that flesh-forms
> that are basically human-sized versions of the insects (as opposed to
> "good mergers") ought to get at least some of the armor and maybe the
> natural attack damage code of the true spirit, but the book says
> otherwise...

I agree, but the only way to do this is to adjust the table that tells you
how good a merge is made. The more successes the spirit has, the more
powers you give it, for example.

However, the only way I've used flesh forms so far is as the book(s)
describes them: rather weak :) This is made good by the power of the true
forms, though, so you don't really need to worry too much about it.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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Message no. 3
From: prophet356@*****.com (Tyrell Hughes)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 02:32:08 -0700 (PDT)
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Jürgen Hubert <jhubert@***.de> wrote:

>- All of the insect spirits are listed as having armor of some >level. Is
>this in _addition_ to the armor gained from the immunity from >normal weapons
>gained by all materialized spirits, or instead of it? And if it is >the former,
>how the hell do you injure these buggers (sorry about the pun) >without the aid
>of magic?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

well, I allways treated it as "in addition too". makes hurting a true form a
rather difficult problem for a squad of riggers and sams doesnt it? *evil grin inserted
right about here*. But then...the bugs are big, nasty, super spirits. it SHOULD (imho)
take a miracle for a normal man, hell even a mega chromed man, to hurt one of these things
with a sword/stick/fist/etc.





>- Speaking of materialization, some of the spirits seem to be >lacking this
>power. Is this a typo? I assume that it is, since otherwise it >would make the
>Venom power of (for example) the male roach spirit rather silly >(unless it works
even in astral space)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say that A) it was a typo and B) the Venom power works in astral space *evil grin*






>- Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that >flesh-forms that are
basically human-sized versions of the >insects (as opposed >to "good
mergers") ought to get at least >some of the armor and maybe >the natural
attack
>damage code of the true spirit, but the book says otherwise...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can understand the armor...but unless they changed the Fleshies very recently...a
fleshform spirit is a nasty looking Half man Half bug nightmare. They cant dematerialize,
and though though they are half spirit, they are still bound to the real world
permanently, which imho (again!) would put limits on their physical strength. not to
mention that their size is based off their host (I think.... correct me if I"m wrong
please!), they shouldnt have damage codes the same as the true forms. nasty damage codes
yes, but not quite as nasty as the true forms.

just my .02 cents, hope it was worth something :)

The Prophet



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Message no. 4
From: jhubert@***.de (JÃŒrgen Hubert)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 13:14:49 +0200 (MEST)
> > And if it
> > is the former, how the hell do you injure these buggers (sorry about th
> e
> > pun) without the aid of magic?
>
> Hit them really hard with a melee weapon, or your fists if you have nothi
> ng
> else, and your Willpower -- this way they at least won't have their
> Immunity to Normal Weapons. It helps if you're a troll, too :)

Does this still work in SR3? I've recently read through the Materialization
power description in SR3, and it says nowhere that you can attack a spirit
with Willpower alone...

- Jürgen Hubert

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Message no. 5
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:08:57 +0200
According to Jürgen Hubert, on Monday 02 June 2003 13:14 the word on the
street was...

> Does this still work in SR3? I've recently read through the
> Materialization power description in SR3, and it says nowhere that you
> can attack a spirit with Willpower alone...

It works differently than in SRII, and the rules for it are in the Magic
chapter, in the section on spirit forms (p. 188, SR3). You roll Willpower,
without Combat Pool, and if you use a weapon it won't increase the damage
you do; OTOH the spirit gets no Immunity to Normal Weapons nor Combat
Pool, and you cause (Charisma)M Stun damage. So the best thing to be would
be an elf with lots of Strength boosts, I guess...

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 6
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:26:03 +0200
Gurth wrote :

>
> It works differently than in SRII, and the rules for it are in the
> Magic
> chapter, in the section on spirit forms (p. 188, SR3). You roll
> Willpower,
> without Combat Pool, and if you use a weapon it won't increase the
> damage
> you do; OTOH the spirit gets no Immunity to Normal Weapons nor Combat
> Pool, and you cause (Charisma)M Stun damage. So the best thing to be
> would
> be an elf with lots of Strength boosts, I guess...

IIRC if you use a weapon you get to use its Reach for this attack,
too. So the best here seems to be an Elf with a claymore.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr@*****.fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 7
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 19:47:48 +0200
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> According to Jürgen Hubert, on Monday 02 June 2003 13:14 the word on the
> street was...
> > Does this still work in SR3? I've recently read through the
> > Materialization power description in SR3, and it says nowhere that you
> > can attack a spirit with Willpower alone...
>
> It works differently than in SRII, and the rules for it are in the Magic
> chapter, in the section on spirit forms (p. 188, SR3). You roll Willpower,
> without Combat Pool, and if you use a weapon it won't increase the damage
> you do; OTOH the spirit gets no Immunity to Normal Weapons nor Combat
> Pool, and you cause (Charisma)M Stun damage. So the best thing to be would
> be an elf with lots of Strength boosts, I guess...

Ehh... you don't need the Strength boosts, all that matters are Willpower
(rolled as you skill), Reach (which still affect your or your opponent's T#)
and your Charisma (as you do (Charisma)M Stun damage.

Lars
Message no. 8
From: l-hansen@*****.TELE.DK (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:08:56 +0200
From: "Jürgen Hubert" <jhubert@***.de>

> I find the insect spirit writeup in "Magic in the Shadows" to be a bit
> confusing (actually, I found _all_ writeups of insect spirits so far
> confusing, but that's another topic...).

Personally I find the MitS write up to be the best of them all, alle other
writeups contradicted each other, and had different rules for different
bugs.

Now the plate is clean, and all the rules are collected in one place.

> - All of the insect spirits are listed as having armor of some level. Is
> this in _addition_ to the armor gained from the immunity from normal
> weapons gained by all materialized spirits, or instead of it?

That would be in addition to the Immunety to normal weapons.

Although there is a difference. If you attack a force 4 Bettle spririt, with
a heavy pistol (9M damage), you will be able to damage the bug, since your
power is bigger than Fx2 (Immunity to normal weapons). The power will also
reduce the power to 1, and the rest of the bugs armour will reduce it to a
further -8. But since the T# of the resistance test can't be lower than 2,
it will effectively have no effect.

Just hit the bug enough times, and it will eventually fail enough tests and
die.

Only problem is, that bugs seldom come alone.

> And if it is the former, how the hell do you injure these buggers (sorry
> about the pun) without the aid of magic?

You don't, you run and come back when you have hired a decent mage.

The best part is that they even have this armor when they are manifesting,
even when you attack them from the astral plane.

> - Speaking of materialization, some of the spirits seem to be lacking this
> power. Is this a typo? I assume that it is, since otherwise it would make
> the Venom power of (for example) the male roach spirit rather silly
> (unless it works even in astral space)...

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/book/errata_mits.shtml
Page 136-137: Insect Spirit Table
Under the following spirits: Fly (Male), Mantid (Male), Mosquito (Male and F
emale), Roach (Male), Termite (Worker and Soldier), Wasp (Male and Female)
add the Power Materialization.

Also the Venom power is Physical, and will not work in astral space without
a physical presence (SR3 page 262)

> - Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that flesh-forms
> that are basically human-sized versions of the insects (as opposed to
> "good mergers") ought to get at least some of the armor and maybe the
> natural attack damage code of the true spirit, but the book says
> otherwise...

But at least the soldiers get the hosts physical attributes, plus a bonus of
their force. Just imagine a cybered up troll infested by a force 6 spirit,
that +6 to S/B/Q, I think that adequately serves at some of the bug's
natural bonuses.

Lars
Message no. 9
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2003 17:16:20 -0400
At 11:08 PM 6/2/2003 +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:

> > - Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that flesh-forms
> > that are basically human-sized versions of the insects (as opposed to
> > "good mergers") ought to get at least some of the armor and maybe the
> > natural attack damage code of the true spirit, but the book says
> > otherwise...
>
>But at least the soldiers get the hosts physical attributes, plus a bonus of
>their force. Just imagine a cybered up troll infested by a force 6 spirit,
>that +6 to S/B/Q, I think that adequately serves at some of the bug's
>natural bonuses.

And just because the book doesn't say they get them, that doesn't mean they
can't. Like most things, it's a basic guide. I look at those rules as the
jumping off point for the GM. You're basic fleshform just gets the Force
bonus, sure, but maybe other varients exist. You could easily add an
exoskeleton, maybe a venomous bite or sting for certain bugs.

My favorite Fleshform is still a troll/wasp merge. Imagine coming face to
face with a bigass troll with multi-faceted bug eyes, an exoskeleton, and
wings.

:]

Bull
Message no. 10
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 10:22:01 +0200
Am Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:08:56 +0200 hat Lars Wagner Hansen <l-
hansen@*****.TELE.DK> geschrieben:

>
> Personally I find the MitS write up to be the best of them all, alle
> other
> writeups contradicted each other, and had different rules for different
> bugs.
>
> Now the plate is clean, and all the rules are collected in one place.

That seems to be the biggest change in SR3: The rules are clear, and to be
found in exactly one place (SOTA 2063 might be an exception, but I'm
running in early 2060 by now, so I am not going to check :).

I hope they keep that.

> Just hit the bug enough times, and it will eventually fail enough tests
> and
> die.

Hm, using bursts or full auto can help here, too.
And of course additional firepower and some magic.

I wouldn't send one character against a bug spirit, but since shadowrunners
tend to appear in groups, that increases their chances of survival. And I
don't think that the local authorities nor any corp would tolerate a hive
of insect spirits in their neighbourhood.

> Only problem is, that bugs seldom come alone.

Starship Troopers, anyone?


--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 11
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:55:26 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Monday 02 June 2003 19:47 the word on
the street was...

> Ehh... you don't need the Strength boosts, all that matters are
> Willpower (rolled as you skill), Reach (which still affect your or your
> opponent's T#) and your Charisma (as you do (Charisma)M Stun damage.

Yeah, you're right... What was I thinking of? :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 12
From: cmd_jackryan@***.net (Phillip Gawlowski)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2003 11:13:23 +0200
Am Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:55:26 +0200 hat Gurth <gurth@******.nl> geschrieben:

> Yeah, you're right... What was I thinking of? :)
>

Muscular elves. A short memory, eh? ;)

--
Phillip Gawlowski
Bastard GameMaster from Hell and GeneralIdiot

http://www.jack-ryan.de/shadowrun
The Linux ShadowRun Character Generator Developer's Mailinglist : LSRCG-
developers@***********.net
Message no. 13
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 19:13:14 +0200
According to Phillip Gawlowski, on Tuesday 03 June 2003 11:13 the word on
the street was...

> Muscular elves. A short memory, eh? ;)

Sorry, who were you again?

;P

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:10:19 +0200
From: "Bull" <bull@*********.com>
> At 11:08 PM 6/2/2003 +0200, Lars Wagner Hansen wrote:
>
> > > - Finally, how do you handle flesh-form bugs? I'd say that flesh-forms
> > > that are basically human-sized versions of the insects (as opposed to
> > > "good mergers") ought to get at least some of the armor and maybe
the
> > > natural attack damage code of the true spirit, but the book says
> > > otherwise...
> >
> >But at least the soldiers get the hosts physical attributes, plus a bonus
of
> >their force. Just imagine a cybered up troll infested by a force 6
spirit,
> >that +6 to S/B/Q, I think that adequately serves at some of the bug's
> >natural bonuses.
>
> And just because the book doesn't say they get them, that doesn't mean
they
> can't. Like most things, it's a basic guide. I look at those rules as
the
> jumping off point for the GM. You're basic fleshform just gets the Force
> bonus, sure, but maybe other varients exist. You could easily add an
> exoskeleton, maybe a venomous bite or sting for certain bugs.

I could also just easely add it in the description of the bug. The players
wouldn't know in any case. There are so many factors, that the players
shouldn't realy know if they are damaged because the bug had huge mandibles
(Strength 3 + Force 4 + Mandibles 2) or because it was strong (Strength 5 +
Force 4 + Mandibles 0).

The same goes with exoskeletons. Why does the bug survive? Because it had
exoskeleton (Armor 3/1) or because it was lucky on its body 4 + Force 4
roll? The players shouldn't know.

I do add exoskeletons, huge mandibles, claws, stingers etc., but purely for
description, it dosn't have to have a game effect to be frightning.

> My favorite Fleshform is still a troll/wasp merge. Imagine coming face to
> face with a bigass troll with multi-faceted bug eyes, an exoskeleton, and
> wings.

That's it, it's the image that counts much more than the rules for it.

Lars
Message no. 15
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 01:14:02 +0200
From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
> Am Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:08:56 +0200 hat Lars Wagner Hansen <l-
> hansen@*****.TELE.DK> geschrieben:
>
> > Just hit the bug enough times, and it will eventually fail enough tests
> > and die.
>
> Hm, using bursts or full auto can help here, too.

Burst or full auto won't help you against immunety to normal weapons,
neither will special bullets. Your base power have to excede twice the force
of the bug, you you won't hurt it at all.

> And of course additional firepower and some magic.

And more magic.

> I wouldn't send one character against a bug spirit, but since
shadowrunners
> tend to appear in groups, that increases their chances of survival. And I
> don't think that the local authorities nor any corp would tolerate a hive
> of insect spirits in their neighbourhood.

Who is talking about _a_ bug spirit, I'm talking about a bug hive :-)

Lars
Message no. 16
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 19:38:25 -0400
-----Original Message-----
From: shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com
[mailto:shadowrn-bounces@*****.dumpshock.com] On Behalf Of Lars Wagner
Hansen
Subject: Re: Bug Spirit questions

From: "Phillip Gawlowski" <cmd_jackryan@***.net>
> Am Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:08:56 +0200 hat Lars Wagner Hansen <l-
> hansen@*****.TELE.DK> geschrieben:
>
> > Just hit the bug enough times, and it will eventually fail enough
tests
> > and die.
>
> Hm, using bursts or full auto can help here, too.

Burst or full auto won't help you against immunety to normal weapons,
neither will special bullets. Your base power have to excede twice the
force
of the bug, you you won't hurt it at all.

{snip}

Lars

[Reply Separator]

Immunity makes no mention of base power. "If the Power of the damage
does not exceed twice the creature's Essence..." Compared to the power
Hardened Armor, "If the Power of an attack (unmodified by burst fire or
anything else)..." I (have) ruled that Immunity does not immunize the
target if the modified Power of the Attack is higher than the armor
provided by Immunity; it merely grants armor. A lot of armor,
admittedly, and you are correct that special ammunition does not apply,
but an AR on full-auto will do a number on a creature with the Immunity
to Normal Weapons power (including many bug spirits).

"I suppose this is what I get for letting rednecks play with
anti-matter; they just don't know when to say 'Okay, that's 'nough!'
Instead, it's always 'Hey' y'all! Watch this!'"
When the Devil Dances, John Ringo

Ian Argent
silvercat@***********.org
Message no. 17
From: l-hansen@*****.tele.dk (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:25:04 +0200
From: "Jonathan Hurley" <silvercat@***********.org>
>
> Immunity makes no mention of base power. "If the Power of the damage
> does not exceed twice the creature's Essence..." Compared to the power
> Hardened Armor, "If the Power of an attack (unmodified by burst fire or
> anything else)..." I (have) ruled that Immunity does not immunize the
> target if the modified Power of the Attack is higher than the armor
> provided by Immunity; it merely grants armor. A lot of armor,
> admittedly, and you are correct that special ammunition does not apply,
> but an AR on full-auto will do a number on a creature with the Immunity
> to Normal Weapons power (including many bug spirits).

Just had to check the rules, and it seems like you are partially right.

The only type of effect that is specifically mentioned is APDS, AVM, and
other armor-piercing ammunitions, which are treated as normal ammo.

So both burst fire, full auto, Explosive Rounds, EX Explosive Rounds, Glazer
Rounds, Hollow Point Rounds, Big D's Temper Shells, Bola Rounds and Shock
Lock Rounds will have a better effect against bugs.

Lars
Message no. 18
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Bug Spirit questions
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 20:36:36 +0200
According to Lars Wagner Hansen, on Wednesday 11 June 2003 01:14 the word
on the street was...

> > And of course additional firepower and some magic.
>
> And more magic.

As I was reminded at GenCon UK 2000, there's a nasty surprise there to
anyone used to first- or second-edition insect spirit stats...

> > And I don't think that the local authorities nor any corp would
> > tolerate a hive of insect spirits in their neighbourhood.

They have to know it's there first, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hooligans (zn) baldadige watervogel
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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