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From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:34:35 -0500

Message no. 1 On Mon, 6 Jul 1998 10:30:05 -0400 MC23 <mc23@**********.COM> writes:
>Once upon a time, Bull wrote;
<SNIP>
>>6. Trolls/Elves are now priority C on the race Priority. Dwarves/Orks
>>are D.

> I hope that's not the right breakdown.
<SNIP>
> I am MC23

Okay, I was thinking about creating a Race build point system to sort out
the variant metas in the SRCo, I guess I'll post what I've got :)

First, a racial stat mod cost +/- 5 points per +/- to a stat.
Stat mods with no change in the racial max costs +/- 2 points per +/-.
Low light vision costs "x" points.
Thermographic vision costs "y" points. (not neccisarily the same as
low-light)

this still leaves Resistance to disease (bought per +1 body die), +1
reach, dermal armor (bought per +1 body die), +2 to ranged target
numbers, and -1 to movement multiplier.

Assuming all the races in the BBB are balanced, then the movement
multiplier balances out with +2 versus disease, or with +1 reach & 1
point of dermal armor.

Assuming that the Cyclops in SRCo is balanced with the Troll, then cost
per misc ability (+1 reach, dermal armor, etc ...) is 2 RBPs (Race Build
Points) per level ...

For simplicty's sake, let's also assume LL vis/Thermo cost 5 points each.
This would mean that the BBB races cost a total of 15 race build points
each. Divide that by 2 and you get 10, which just happens to be the cost
of making a metahuman char ... nifty, huh?

BTW, I don't remember how I came by this number but, adding a critter
power to a race would cost 15 RBPs ... IIRC, it was somehow based on the
CFS SB's mutant animals (critter power cost 3 essence)

Just a thought but now you can (if you want) go through and calc all the
cost for the meta variants and change the costs for building them ... I
would guestimate that:
if using "more metahumans option:
60 (or maybe 80?) RBPs = "A" Pick
40 RBPs = "B" Pick
20 RBPs = "C" Pick
10 RBPs = "D" Pick
0 RBPs = "E" Pick
if not:
20 RBPs = "A" Pick
15 RBPs = "B" Pick
10 RBPs = "C" Pick
5 RBPs = "D" Pick
0 RBPs = "E" Pick

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

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From:	Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:13:00 +0200

Message no. 2 > Okay, I was thinking about creating a Race build point system to sort ou=
t
> the variant metas in the SRCo, I guess I'll post what I've got :)

Ok. Cool.

> First, a racial stat mod cost +/- 5 points per +/- to a stat.
> Stat mods with no change in the racial max costs +/- 2 points per +/-.
> Low light vision costs "x" points.
> Thermographic vision costs "y" points. (not neccisarily the same as
> low-light)

So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :)
and -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.

> this still leaves Resistance to disease (bought per +1 body die), +1
> reach, dermal armor (bought per +1 body die), +2 to ranged target
> numbers, and -1 to movement multiplier.
>
> Assuming all the races in the BBB are balanced, then the movement
> multiplier balances out with +2 versus disease, or with +1 reach & 1
> point of dermal armor.
>
> Assuming that the Cyclops in SRCo is balanced with the Troll, then cost
> per misc ability (+1 reach, dermal armor, etc ...) is 2 RBPs (Race Build
> Points) per level ...

Ok. I take +10 reach too.

> For simplicty's sake, let's also assume LL vis/Thermo cost 5 points each=
.
> This would mean that the BBB races cost a total of 15 race build points
> each. Divide that by 2 and you get 10, which just happens to be the cos=
t
> of making a metahuman char ... nifty, huh?

15 /2 = 10 ????
The munchky costs 20 points. Divided by 2, this gives 10. That's
right ?

> BTW, I don't remember how I came by this number but, adding a critter
> power to a race would cost 15 RBPs ... IIRC, it was somehow based on the
> CFS SB's mutant animals (critter power cost 3 essence)

Ok. I take regeneration too. I don't need cyber since munchy (the
name of the character) is a mage.

> Just a thought but now you can (if you want) go through and calc all the
> cost for the meta variants and change the costs for building them ... I
> would guestimate that:
> if using "more metahumans option:
> 60 (or maybe 80?) RBPs = "A" Pick
> 40 RBPs = "B" Pick
> 20 RBPs = "C" Pick
> 10 RBPs = "D" Pick
> 0 RBPs = "E" Pick
> if not:
> 20 RBPs = "A" Pick
> 15 RBPs = "B" Pick
> 10 RBPs = "C" Pick
> 5 RBPs = "D" Pick
> 0 RBPs = "E" Pick

Ok. So I take the D priority with more meta and A otherwise.

In case you didn't see, it's a joke. :)

    -
Cobra.                   =

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From:	Mike Hartmann <hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:09:49 +0200

Message no. 3 Cobra wrote:

> So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
> thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
> It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
> intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :) and
> -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.

I always had the impression that you'd have to raise the stat to at
least one (ie if a troll has -3 for charisma you have to invest 4
attribute-points), am I wrong?

bye mike

---
Download the current version of SRCG at
www.fortunecity.com/tinpan/newreed/15/

From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:11:05 -0500

Message no. 4 On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:09:49 +0200 Mike Hartmann
<hartmann@***********.M.EUNET.DE> writes:
>Cobra wrote:
>> So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
>> thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
>> It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
>> intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :)
and
>> -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.

>I always had the impression that you'd have to raise the stat to at
>least one (ie if a troll has -3 for charisma you have to invest 4
>attribute-points), am I wrong?
>
>bye mike
<SNIP Sig>

Nope. Cobra would have to spend 56 stat points = 112 Build points +20
(mage) +10 Metamunch +0 (30 force points in spells) +0 (no skills [he'll
just default from Intelligence ;) = 142 Build boints ... okay noy take 42
points of flaws ... ;) hee hee

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
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From:	Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 10:59:20 -0500

Message no. 5 On Tue, 7 Jul 1998 16:13:00 +0200 Cobra <wgallas@*****.FR> writes:
>> Okay, I was thinking about creating a Race build point system to sort
out
>> the variant metas in the SRCo, I guess I'll post what I've got :)

>Ok. Cool.

>> First, a racial stat mod cost +/- 5 points per +/- to a stat.
>> Stat mods with no change in the racial max costs +/- 2 points per +/-.
>> Low light vision costs "x" points.
>> Thermographic vision costs "y" points. (not neccisarily the same as
>> low-light)

>So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
>thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
>It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
>intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :)
>and -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.

No. Giving 1 point of Charisma is a -49 ... ;) hmmm ... I don't think
any stat should be able to have more than 5 points of penalty ... (In the
above example you'd have a racial maaximum charisma of -44 ...)

>> this still leaves Resistance to disease (bought per +1 body die), +1
>> reach, dermal armor (bought per +1 body die), +2 to ranged target
>> numbers, and -1 to movement multiplier.
>>
>> Assuming all the races in the BBB are balanced, then the movement
>> multiplier balances out with +2 versus disease, or with +1 reach & 1
>> point of dermal armor.
>>
>> Assuming that the Cyclops in SRCo is balanced with the Troll, then
cost
>> per misc ability (+1 reach, dermal armor, etc ...) is 2 RBPs (Race
Build
>> Points) per level ...

>Ok. I take +10 reach too.

+20 Racial build points ... or are you going to balance it with a -5 to
movement multiplier?

>> For simplicty's sake, let's also assume LL vis/Thermo cost 5 points
each.
>> This would mean that the BBB races cost a total of 15 race build
points
>> each. Divide that by 2 and you get 10, which just happens to be the
cost
>> of making a metahuman char ... nifty, huh?

>15 /2 = 10 ????

ooooops I meant 20 :) 15 (stats) + 5 (vision mods) = 20 :)

>The munchky costs 20 points. Divided by 2, this gives 10. That's right ?

Yup :)

>> BTW, I don't remember how I came by this number but, adding a critter
>> power to a race would cost 15 RBPs ... IIRC, it was somehow based on
the
>> CFS SB's mutant animals (critter power cost 3 essence)

>Ok. I take regeneration too. I don't need cyber since munchy (the
>name of the character) is a mage.

okay, race costs 35 RBPs /2 = 18 (rounding up ... should have mentioned
that somewhere :)

>> Just a thought but now you can (if you want) go through and calc all
the
>> cost for the meta variants and change the costs for building them ...
I
>> would guestimate that:
>> if using "more metahumans option:
>> 60 (or maybe 80?) RBPs = "A" Pick
>> 40 RBPs = "B" Pick
>> 20 RBPs = "C" Pick
>> 10 RBPs = "D" Pick
>> 0 RBPs = "E" Pick
>> if not:
>> 20 RBPs = "A" Pick
>> 15 RBPs = "B" Pick
>> 10 RBPs = "C" Pick
>> 5 RBPs = "D" Pick
>> 0 RBPs = "E" Pick

>Ok. So I take the D priority with more meta and A otherwise.

For the first Munchy, it would be "C" with more metahumans or "A"
otherwise
For the second (with regeneration) it would be "B" with more Metas and
"yeah, right..." otherwise :) (actually, it'd be "yeah right" straight
accross the board for both versions ;)

>In case you didn't see, it's a joke. :)
>
>
> -
>Cobra.
<SNIP Sig>

I actually found it quite humorous and helpful :)

I had intended this more to check game balance than to make new races ...
Hmmm ... revisions after your post:
1) No stat may have more than 5 ponts of penalty.
2) Round up final Build point cost.
3) Keep this system away from Cobra ;)

D.Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, and RuPixel)
"Let he who is without SIN cast the first stone"

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:36:15 EDT

Message no. 6 In a message dated 7/7/98 9:06:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time, wgallas@=
MHNET.FR writes:

> > First, a racial stat mod cost +/- 5 points per +/- to a stat.
> > Stat mods with no change in the racial max costs +/- 2 points per +/=
-.
> > Low light vision costs "x" points.
> > Thermographic vision costs "y" points. (not neccisarily the same as
> > low-light)
>
> So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
> thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
> It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
> intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :)
> and -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.

Actually guy, that is NOT true in SR2. You still have to allocate at lea=
st one point to the attribute IIRC. And if there are negatives such as=
the one you are proposing, then those are not "standard" subtractions =
(such as a standard troll's). This might be a new "race", but it's des=
ign concept is way to far. And no, I don't care if you call it a "Munc=
hy Master", it's still beyond reason.

> > this still leaves Resistance to disease (bought per +1 body die), +1
> > reach, dermal armor (bought per +1 body die), +2 to ranged target
> > numbers, and -1 to movement multiplier.
> >
> > Assuming all the races in the BBB are balanced, then the movement
> > multiplier balances out with +2 versus disease, or with +1 reach & 1
> > point of dermal armor.

Oooo, big assumption there.... ;)

> > Assuming that the Cyclops in SRCo is balanced with the Troll, then c=
ost
> > per misc ability (+1 reach, dermal armor, etc ...) is 2 RBPs (Race B=
uild
> > Points) per level ...
>
> Ok. I take +10 reach too.

Maximum reach bonus does not exceed +3 btw....

> > For simplicty's sake, let's also assume LL vis/Thermo cost 5 points =
each.
> > This would mean that the BBB races cost a total of 15 race build po=
ints
> > each. Divide that by 2 and you get 10, which just happens to be the=
cost
> > of making a metahuman char ... nifty, huh?
>
> 15 /2 = 10 ????
> The munchky costs 20 points. Divided by 2, this gives 10. That's
> right ?

I think he forgot to add the Low Light -OR- the Thermographic to the base=
15 (it is an "OR" isn't it???).

> > BTW, I don't remember how I came by this number but, adding a critte=
r
> > power to a race would cost 15 RBPs ... IIRC, it was somehow based on=
the
> > CFS SB's mutant animals (critter power cost 3 essence)
>
> Ok. I take regeneration too. I don't need cyber since munchy (the
> name of the character) is a mage.

Oh brother.

> > Just a thought but now you can (if you want) go through and calc all=
the
> > cost for the meta variants and change the costs for building them ..=
. I
> > would guestimate that:
> > if using "more metahumans option:
> > 60 (or maybe 80?) RBPs = "A" Pick
> > 40 RBPs = "B" Pick
> > 20 RBPs = "C" Pick
> > 10 RBPs = "D" Pick
> > 0 RBPs = "E" Pick
> > if not:
> > 20 RBPs = "A" Pick
> > 15 RBPs = "B" Pick
> > 10 RBPs = "C" Pick
> > 5 RBPs = "D" Pick
> > 0 RBPs = "E" Pick

Actually, this doesn't sound all that bad. But one question if I may. H=
ow does one determine the number of RBP's one get's to use? Or are you=
altering the character building system in the SRComp in some fashion?

> Ok. So I take the D priority with more meta and A otherwise.

Well, "C" is "More Meta" you twerp ... (twonked-onna-head)

> In case you didn't see, it's a joke. :)
>     -
Cobra.                 =

=
###

Oh Cobra, sorry, didn't know this was you until I got to this part. So s=
orry for the "twonking" there....forgive me...here, you deserve better.=
..

*THWAP* (just a little one :P)

Sorry, this was all just a joke, really, it was...

Truthfully though, this "RBP" idea is a good one, at least in theory. I =
am not sure how well it works out in practice, as there are some major =
loopholes, not including the ones' that Cobra pointed out. There would=
have to be some limitations that the GM would need to make certain his=
players were aware of basically.

-K

From:	K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 12:37:35 EDT

Message no. 7 In a message dated 7/7/98 9:16:51 AM US Eastern Standard Time, hartmann@***
HARTMANN.M.EUNET.DE writes:

> > So, here is a new race : The munchky. It appears like a big hairy
> > thing with big arms and has a very ugly face.
> > It has +10 strength, +10 body, +10 quickness, +10 willpower and +10
> > intelligence (because knowledge skills will be based on int in SR3 :) and
> > -50 charisma because if I give 1 point in charisma, it still is 1.
>
> I always had the impression that you'd have to raise the stat to at
> least one (ie if a troll has -3 for charisma you have to invest 4
> attribute-points), am I wrong?
>
actually, we've -usually- done something like this just to keep things fair,
but not necessarily. However, I could see the rules be interpreted either
direction.

-K

From:	Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject:	Re: Building Races (Was Quick Eulogy for the passing of SR2)
Date:	Tue, 7 Jul 1998 18:48:55 +0100

Message no. 8 Mike Hartmann said on 16:09/7 Jul 98,...

> I always had the impression that you'd have to raise the stat to at
> least one (ie if a troll has -3 for charisma you have to invest 4
> attribute-points), am I wrong?

That's the way I have always thought that rule should be
interpreted, yes.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
I wish I was a neutron bomb, for once I could go off.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
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