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Message no. 1
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:53:51 +0200
Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?

This was brought up by the player's character, a houngan, having learned
an SR3 version of the SR1 spell Turn To Goo with the specific intention of
turning doors or locks to goo to gain easy entrance to buildings or rooms.
I said no, explaining that, because you also can't target parts of a
vehicle with magic, components of a building follow that rule too. IOW,
either you turn the whole house to goo, or you don't turn anything to goo
(which posed another problem, more about which in a moment).

The player's argument was mainly that I had allowed spells like Ram Touch
to blast holes in walls or destroy doors without having to target (and
collapse) the whole house, so Turn To Goo should be able to do something
similar. Thinking about it quickly during the session, I decided that I
had probably been wrong in the past to let Ram Touch do that in the first
place. Was I?


The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 2
From: Simon and Fiona sfuller@******.com.au
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:24:14 +1000
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: shadowrn@*********.com <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:54 PM
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


>This was brought up by the player's character, a houngan, having learned
>an SR3 version of the SR1 spell Turn To Goo with the specific intention of
>turning doors or locks to goo to gain easy entrance to buildings or rooms.


Without helping or answering your question in any way, that Goo spell was a
horrendous oversight in the first edition, I thought. Low target numbers,
and a human could be instantly killed. In fact someone did that in an early
novel (A Robert Charrette one). I hope the version you are using has done
something to rectify that (inanimate targets only or something may be
enough, not sure). I was always too scared to take that spell in case my
players realised how megadeath it was. ',:?)
Message no. 3
From: paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:33:34 +1000
Hmm, my first thought is that you really should be able to limit the
targetting of ram type spells somehow. (Including 'Turn to Goo'), it's just
comming up with a method to do so. Hell, they shouldn't effect all of a
large building anyway.

How about making him burn dice to limit the area of effect, ala area effect
spells.
The more localised the effect, the more dice reserved from the success test
for changing the area.

You should also do similar for enlarging the effect to larger buildings etc.

Annachie

---> I WILL NOT CUT CORNERS
---> " " " " " "
---> " " " " " "

----Bart's Blackboard


----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, June 12, 2000 6:53 PM
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


> Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
> argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
> a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?
>
> This was brought up by the player's character, a houngan, having learned
> an SR3 version of the SR1 spell Turn To Goo with the specific intention of
> turning doors or locks to goo to gain easy entrance to buildings or rooms.
> I said no, explaining that, because you also can't target parts of a
> vehicle with magic, components of a building follow that rule too. IOW,
> either you turn the whole house to goo, or you don't turn anything to goo
> (which posed another problem, more about which in a moment).
>
> The player's argument was mainly that I had allowed spells like Ram Touch
> to blast holes in walls or destroy doors without having to target (and
> collapse) the whole house, so Turn To Goo should be able to do something
> similar. Thinking about it quickly during the session, I decided that I
> had probably been wrong in the past to let Ram Touch do that in the first
> place. Was I?
>
>
> The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
> single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
> for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
> than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
> parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?
>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
> ->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
>
> GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
> PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
>
>
>
Message no. 4
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 04:45:23 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


> Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
> argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
> a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?

Yes... but there are catches/requirements....

> This was brought up by the player's character, a houngan, having learned
> an SR3 version of the SR1 spell Turn To Goo with the specific intention of
> turning doors or locks to goo to gain easy entrance to buildings or rooms.
> I said no, explaining that, because you also can't target parts of a
> vehicle with magic, components of a building follow that rule too. IOW,
> either you turn the whole house to goo, or you don't turn anything to goo
> (which posed another problem, more about which in a moment).
>
> The player's argument was mainly that I had allowed spells like Ram Touch
> to blast holes in walls or destroy doors without having to target (and
> collapse) the whole house, so Turn To Goo should be able to do something
> similar. Thinking about it quickly during the session, I decided that I
> had probably been wrong in the past to let Ram Touch do that in the first
> place. Was I?

By letting him target a "Turn to Goo" spell??? No, you were not wrong...
however...

> The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
> single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
> for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
> than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
> parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?

Ah, yet another part of stuff. Actually, most buildings that I know of are
at least Barrier-6 to Barrier-8 material. If you were to use the vehicle
rules, as you were using as your basis earlier, then the target would be 8 +
Barrier Rating + Half Armor rating (please note this last part).

However, you probably have a target number equal to the Object Resistance
rating, and for some reason I seem to recall a threshold being equal to the
barrier being used in many transformation type spells. You could arguably
use the "threshold" type rules for "damaging manipulations" as well.

Now as for the "Turn to Goo" targetted at a door, NO, you cannot use that
spell to do so. Remind the player that "Ram Touch" is specifically designed
against it's targets while a "Turn *DOOR* to Goo" spell would be required to
only nail/target a door and turn it to goo. The *ONLY* other exception to
this that I can even come close to thinking of is very crafty usage of
mana-barrier/spell-barrier type spells, two or more of them perhaps and
creating a "partitioned space" that a given spell will not exceed. We did
this to perform a "Fix" spell upon a singular component for a shuttle the
group was trying to obtain the records from. What technically happened was
that the spell created a temporary "boundary of seperation" between the
parts of the console that was the actual target. Within the wedge created
by the mana/spell barriers, the Fix worked okay ... which allowed for the
computer component to become accessible (they supplied the battery power to
it externally themselves) for their further manipulations.

I can't really think of other restrictions with regards to the magic that
actually exist or could be readily innovated at this point. BUT, I do know
they are there.

You were close Gurth, you just missed the obvious here by the
comparison/example you gave.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 5
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:43:19 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
> argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
> a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?

<snip>

> The player's argument was mainly that I had allowed spells like Ram Touch
> to blast holes in walls or destroy doors without having to target (and
> collapse) the whole house, so Turn To Goo should be able to do something
> similar. Thinking about it quickly during the session, I decided that I
> had probably been wrong in the past to let Ram Touch do that in the first
> place. Was I?

IMC, I would rule that Turn to Goo could be used to target doors,
windows, or etc. Why? The way I see it, it's because of the percieved
scale of things. IMO, most often people think of cars as whole cars,
and not as parts. But when they think about buildings they think
about rooms, doors, and hallways. Very seldom as whole buildings. I
would think this is more true with larger buildings such as
skyscrapers.

>
> The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
> single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
> for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
> than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
> parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?

I would come up with a "Building Classification" modifier. Just off
the top of my head, hardened buildings such as military/corp security
facilities would have a x5 modifier (avg wall rating x 5 = structure
rating). While a warehouse might have x1.5 modifier. The modifiers
could be adjusted up or down to reflect construction quality. These
numbers are off the cuff and may need adjusting.

--
Iridios
--
God Is

Visit "The ShadowZone"
http://members.xoom.com/Iridios/ShadowZone

Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
7:32:46 AM/63:04:03 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 6
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 07:03:20 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
>argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
>a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?

I would say yes. The precedent has been set in that a player may target
specific parts of a vehicle (windows, tires, etc).

>The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
>single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
>for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
>than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
>parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?

If a character want's to destroy a building in my game, they have to
destroy all of the major structural supports separately. I.e., I don't
assign a building a single body rating.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday ... and all is well."
Message no. 7
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 17:53:55 GMT
>From: Iridios <iridios@********.net>
>IMC, I would rule that Turn to Goo could be used to target doors,
>windows, or etc. Why? The way I see it, it's because of the percieved
>scale of things. IMO, most often people think of cars as whole cars,
>and not as parts. But when they think about buildings they think
>about rooms, doors, and hallways. Very seldom as whole buildings. I
>would think this is more true with larger buildings such as
>skyscrapers.

I'm not sure about the rules side of this but as I see it you target the
building's aura (yes, even highly processed objects have auras, they're just
weaker), and just as a human has one aura so does a building. In the above
description, corridors are analagous to veigns, arterys and other internal
parts of the human body. So just think of it as targeting a really big
(highly processed) person.

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

________________________________________________________________________
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Message no. 8
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:58:05 +0200
According to dbuehrer@******.carl.org, at 7:03 on 12 Jun 00, the word on
the street was...

> >Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
> >argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
> >a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?
>
> I would say yes. The precedent has been set in that a player may target
> specific parts of a vehicle (windows, tires, etc).

The precedent has been set that they _can't_ -- SR3, p. 150: "Vehicles are
single entities. (...) magicians cannot use magic to target individual
portions of a vehicle." Basically, my question is whether a building is
such a single entity as well, or whether its walls, windows, and doors are
separate entities.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:58:05 +0200
According to Iridios, at 7:43 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> IMC, I would rule that Turn to Goo could be used to target doors,
> windows, or etc. Why? The way I see it, it's because of the percieved
> scale of things. IMO, most often people think of cars as whole cars,
> and not as parts. But when they think about buildings they think
> about rooms, doors, and hallways.

It depends more on the situation than anything else, I would say... I
think about cars as whole things when I am riding my bike and don't want
to be hit by one, but when I'm in one and it gets a flat tire, I think of
it as having wheels, hubs, bolts, etc. Same with buildings: it's a house
when I'm outside of it, but rooms, doors, and so on when I go inside.
IMHO, this is not a good line of reasoning for solving this problem :)

> Very seldom as whole buildings. I would think this is more true with
> larger buildings such as skyscrapers.

Strange... I see that just the other way round.

[building is stronger than its walls alone]
> I would come up with a "Building Classification" modifier. Just off
> the top of my head, hardened buildings such as military/corp security
> facilities would have a x5 modifier (avg wall rating x 5 = structure
> rating). While a warehouse might have x1.5 modifier. The modifiers
> could be adjusted up or down to reflect construction quality. These
> numbers are off the cuff and may need adjusting.

That's more or less what I was thinking of, too. ATM I'm thinking of
averaging its major barrier ratings and adding a multiplier to reflect the
strength of the building, but I have no ideas yet for how high that should
be.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 10
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 19:58:05 +0200
According to NeoJudas, at 4:45 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the street was...

> > The player's argument was mainly that I had allowed spells like Ram Touch
> > to blast holes in walls or destroy doors without having to target (and
> > collapse) the whole house, so Turn To Goo should be able to do something
> > similar. Thinking about it quickly during the session, I decided that I
> > had probably been wrong in the past to let Ram Touch do that in the first
> > place. Was I?
>
> By letting him target a "Turn to Goo" spell??? No, you were not wrong...
> however...

I _didn't_ let him target Turn To Goo on the door, but had allowed Ram
Touch to do precisely that in the past -- that was the cause of the
discussion our group had in the first place.

> > The second problem, refered to above, is that if you make a building a
> > single target, BTB it becomes too easy to destroy one if you use the rules
> > for barrier ratings. Buildings should have a barrier rating that's higher
> > than that of their walls, as it's a "whole is greater than the sum of the
> > parts" type of deal, but how would you represent this in SR?
>
> Ah, yet another part of stuff. Actually, most buildings that I know of are
> at least Barrier-6 to Barrier-8 material. If you were to use the vehicle
> rules, as you were using as your basis earlier, then the target would be 8 +
> Barrier Rating + Half Armor rating (please note this last part).

What I would use here is the object resistance rating, and use the
Breaking Through barriers rules (SR3 p. 125) to determine damage to the
barrier when/if the spell works. For example, a weak concrete building
might have an ORR of 8 (which sets the TN) and a Barrier Rating of 6 (so
you'd have to use a Force 6+ manipulation spell or Force 12+ combat spell
to lower its barrier rating).

> However, you probably have a target number equal to the Object Resistance
> rating, and for some reason I seem to recall a threshold being equal to the
> barrier being used in many transformation type spells. You could arguably
> use the "threshold" type rules for "damaging manipulations" as
well.

See above.

> Now as for the "Turn to Goo" targetted at a door, NO, you cannot use that
> spell to do so. Remind the player that "Ram Touch" is specifically
designed
> against it's targets while a "Turn *DOOR* to Goo" spell would be required
to
> only nail/target a door and turn it to goo.

So what you're saying, basically, is that Mana Bolt cannot exist. You'd
have to have a Mana Bolt (Human Targets), Mana Bolt (Elf Targets), Mana
Bolt (Troll Targets), and so on?

Or did I misinterpret you there, and were you trying to say that to only
turn the door in a building to goo, you'd need Turn Door To Goo, which
would affect only the doors in the single target that is the building?
However, using the magic vs. vehicle rules again, you can't target the
building's doors, because you have to target the whole building. Which
makes a spell like that only useful for turning loose doors (i.e. not part
of a building) to goo...

Which is the essence of my question, as I see it: can doors or locks be
targeted separately from the building they are in? If you can, then you
can IMHO also target wheels or windows of cars. Unless a building is not
considered a single target, but then the question becomes: where do you
draw the line of what constitutes a single target?

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 11
From: Iridios iridios@********.net
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 14:23:48 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to Iridios, at 7:43 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the street was...
>
> > IMC, I would rule that Turn to Goo could be used to target doors,
> > windows, or etc. Why? The way I see it, it's because of the percieved
> > scale of things. IMO, most often people think of cars as whole cars,
> > and not as parts. But when they think about buildings they think
> > about rooms, doors, and hallways.
>
> It depends more on the situation than anything else, I would say... I
> think about cars as whole things when I am riding my bike and don't want
> to be hit by one, but when I'm in one and it gets a flat tire, I think of
> it as having wheels, hubs, bolts, etc. Same with buildings: it's a house
> when I'm outside of it, but rooms, doors, and so on when I go inside.
> IMHO, this is not a good line of reasoning for solving this problem :)

Were talking about how magic is applied against a building. There may
not be a "good" line of reasoning for solving the problem, but it
helps to talk it out. You are right though, a persons perception of a
building may be different under different circumstances.

>
> > Very seldom as whole buildings. I would think this is more true with
> > larger buildings such as skyscrapers.
>
> Strange... I see that just the other way round.

Again, it probably depends on the situation. If I'm giving
directions, the larger more recognizable buildings would stand out.
But if I'm planning an assault against a building, it's easier to
think of it as doors and hallways. Especially if it's a 100+ story
building.


> That's more or less what I was thinking of, too. ATM I'm thinking of
> averaging its major barrier ratings and adding a multiplier to reflect the
> strength of the building, but I have no ideas yet for how high that should
> be.

That would be, IMO, the easiest way to handle it.

--
Iridios
--
Evolution is a harsh mistress.

Visit "The ShadowZone"
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Sig by Kookie Jar 5.97d http://go.to/generalfrenetics/
2:17:54 PM/144:04:04 (1) [no thud]
Message no. 12
From: Phil Smith phil_urbanhell@*******.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 18:27:03 GMT
>From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
> > Now as for the "Turn to Goo" targetted at a door, NO, you cannot use
>that
> > spell to do so. Remind the player that "Ram Touch" is specifically
>designed
> > against it's targets while a "Turn *DOOR* to Goo" spell would be
>required to
> > only nail/target a door and turn it to goo.
>
>So what you're saying, basically, is that Mana Bolt cannot exist. You'd
>have to have a Mana Bolt (Human Targets), Mana Bolt (Elf Targets), Mana
>Bolt (Troll Targets), and so on?

A largely unrelated quetion to Gurth's conumdrum but...

If detect (enemys) is possible, is slaughter (enemys) or a specific target
manaball for enemys applying the Restricted Target modifier from MITS?

I mean this in a purely acidemic sense; even if the spell could exist it
basicly would wipe out any need for reducing the area effect of a spell and
I can see it deeply unbalancing the game and would not allow it. But
theoretically, can it be done?

Phil

...Unfortunatly one of them spotted our hidden microphone and followed the
extension cable back to the police station.
Milton Jones

________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Message no. 13
From: NeoJudas neojudas@******************.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 13:59:00 -0500
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


> What I would use here is the object resistance rating, and use the
> Breaking Through barriers rules (SR3 p. 125) to determine damage to the
> barrier when/if the spell works. For example, a weak concrete building
> might have an ORR of 8 (which sets the TN) and a Barrier Rating of 6 (so
> you'd have to use a Force 6+ manipulation spell or Force 12+ combat spell
> to lower its barrier rating).

Ah, and in so doing, you create an even worse situation involving building
damage levels IMO. Your system is "all or nothing". The universe
ever-so-rarely works that way.

> > Now as for the "Turn to Goo" targetted at a door, NO, you cannot use
that
> > spell to do so. Remind the player that "Ram Touch" is specifically
designed
> > against it's targets while a "Turn *DOOR* to Goo" spell would be
required to
> > only nail/target a door and turn it to goo.
>
> So what you're saying, basically, is that Mana Bolt cannot exist. You'd
> have to have a Mana Bolt (Human Targets), Mana Bolt (Elf Targets), Mana
> Bolt (Troll Targets), and so on?

No, that isn't even close to what I'm saying.

> Or did I misinterpret you there, and were you trying to say that to only
> turn the door in a building to goo, you'd need Turn Door To Goo, which
> would affect only the doors in the single target that is the building?
> However, using the magic vs. vehicle rules again, you can't target the
> building's doors, because you have to target the whole building. Which
> makes a spell like that only useful for turning loose doors (i.e. not part
> of a building) to goo...

Ah, but you *CAN* do so if the spells are designed as such. You actually
could have "Power Bolt (Car Tires)" if the spell were specifically designed
that way. You would not be targeting a specific aura, but merely the spell
would only be damaging a specific part of it.

> Which is the essence of my question, as I see it: can doors or locks be
> targeted separately from the building they are in? If you can, then you
> can IMHO also target wheels or windows of cars. Unless a building is not
> considered a single target, but then the question becomes: where do you
> draw the line of what constitutes a single target?

No, remember what I said about the universe "rarely" allows for such? This
is the allowance. Magic must be given a planned out, designed, direction to
follow through. If you designed a spell to do a specific thing, then it
will (to the best of it or its' casters' abilities anyway). Detect
"Firearms" is an example here. Ram Touch is as well.

It is for this reason that you can't "target" during a spell*CASTING*.
During a spell*DESIGN* however, you can.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
NeoJudas ("K" to Friends)
"Children of the Kernel: Reborn"
(neojudas@******************.com)
Hoosier Hacker House (http://www.hoosierhackerhouse.com/)
Message no. 14
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:31:20 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>According to dbuehrer@******.carl.org, at 7:03 on 12 Jun 00, the word on
>the street was...
>
> > >Here's something that came up in a game recently, and caused a bit of an
> > >argument between the GM (me) and one of the other players: can you target
> > >a door or a lock, that's part of a building, with magic?
> >
> > I would say yes. The precedent has been set in that a player may target
> > specific parts of a vehicle (windows, tires, etc).
>
>The precedent has been set that they _can't_ -- SR3, p. 150: "Vehicles are
>single entities. (...) magicians cannot use magic to target individual
>portions of a vehicle." Basically, my question is whether a building is
>such a single entity as well, or whether its walls, windows, and doors are
>separate entities.

oops :)

Okay, in that case, everything but manipulation spells would have to target
the entire building.

The TN would come off of the object resistance table. Keep in mind that
buildings overall are very complex structures. There's the wood, nails,
plaster, screws, etc, and then there's the electrical wiring, plumbing,
heating, cooling, etc. Then I would check the rules as to whether or not
armor applies vs a specific spell and if so, apply the average barrier
rating (giving more weight to the barrier ratings of major structural
components like walls and support beams).

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"All things are at all times, in motion. Take the time to watch the dance."
-John Caeser Leafston
Message no. 15
From: Wolfchild nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 15:41:23 -0500
At 07:33 PM 6/12/00 +1000, you wrote:
>Hmm, my first thought is that you really should be able to limit the
>targetting of ram type spells somehow. (Including 'Turn to Goo'), it's just
>comming up with a method to do so. Hell, they shouldn't effect all of a
>large building anyway.
>
>How about making him burn dice to limit the area of effect, ala area effect
>spells.
>The more localised the effect, the more dice reserved from the success test
>for changing the area.
>
>You should also do similar for enlarging the effect to larger buildings etc.

Actually I like this idea the best. The building is a single entity for
purposes of spell targeting, however the spell cannot effect any more area
than if it were designed with an Area of Effect. Let's call this a Virtual
Area of Effect (or VAoE). Thus most light vehicles would be wholly effected
because the entire vehicle can fit within the
VAoE but a building cannot because it is simply too large to be effected as
a whole. So if you cast a Ram against a building it will probably only
damage a large section of wall (nearest the caster). Likewise if you were
to cast Turn to Goo against a lock, the target would actually be the
building but only the lock, the door, and a good portion of the surrounding
wall, ceiling, and floor would be effected.

Of course the spell could be limited during the design phase but someone
else already covered that quite well.

Makes sense to me. YMMV.



Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
--
"Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque antiquam amoves?"
-Plautus, Miles Gloriosus "There are nights when the wolves
are silent and only the moon howls." -George Carlin
Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu>
Message no. 16
From: TalonMail@***.com TalonMail@***.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 16:52:17 EDT
Gurth wrote:
>This was brought up by the player's character, a houngan, having learned

>an SR3 version of the SR1 spell Turn To Goo with the specific intention of

>turning doors or locks to goo to gain easy entrance to buildings or rooms.

Ah, Turn to Goo, how I love that spell. FWIW, I actually did write a version
of TtG in the SR3 magic chapter, but it was cut in the final edit, which is
why the dwarf mage in the "See How the Run" intro story uses it, even though
it technically doesn't exist in the game. Here's the version of the spell
that was cut:

-----
Turn To Goo
Type: P, Target: B or OR, Duration: S, Drain: +2S

Turn to Goo breaks down the target’s molecular cohesion, reducing it to a

puddle of sludge. The Threshold is half the target’s Body or Barrier
Rating.
So long as the material is kept together, the target will return to normal
when the spell ends. If the material is dispersed or separated, the target is
(messily) destroyed when the spell ends. Living targets are not conscious
while under the effects of this spell.
-----

As for TtG being a "killer" spell, the inclusion of a Threshold makes it no
worse than a powerbolt for killing most targets, and actually less effective
against the high-Body types (ex. a serious damage powerbolts needs only 2 net
successes to kill its target, for +1S drain. Turn to Goo needs 2 successes
for Body 4, 3 for Body 6, and 4+ for those Body 8+ metas. Plus TtG is
sustained so they're not dead unless you disperse the goo first.

As for using TtG on parts of buildings, I've always allowed it. The example I
use is if I walk up to a car, rap on its door and say to someone "what's
this?" the most likely answer is "a car". On the other hand, if I walk up
to
a house, put my hand on the front door and say "what's this?" the most likely
answer is " a door" not "a house" or "a building". Plus, of
course, it's a
game balance thing, and FASA decided that being able to target parts of
vehicles was too powerful because its very easy to take out a vehicle if you
are capable of pinpoint accuracy with a weapon that can't miss (like a
powerbolt). Buildings tend not to be as much of a problem, IMHO. In fact,
it's probably too powerful to let single-target spells affect entire
buildings without being massive area spells.

Hope that helps,

Steve Kenson

Talon Studio
http://members.aol.com/talonmail
Message no. 17
From: Ahrain Ahrain-Drigar@**********.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 22:56:04 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


> Which is the essence of my question, as I see it: can doors or locks be
> targeted separately from the building they are in? If you can, then you
> can IMHO also target wheels or windows of cars. Unless a building is not
> considered a single target, but then the question becomes: where do you
> draw the line of what constitutes a single target?

OK, from my experience in playing/GMing mages and the like (which has been
most of my SR career) I think it honestly depends on the type of spell.

Combat spells: No way, all or nothing unless specifically designed to do so.
Transformation Manipulations: Again, dido
Damaging Manipulations: Yes, targeting would be possible.

Reasoning
Combat spells, IIRC, actually target the Aura of the object/person. So the
spell, if a general spell, would have to target the "whole aura", of which a
door is a part. Now, if a spell is DESIGNED to affect only a specific part
of the aura, like K...NeoJudas mentioned about Turn "Door" to Goo, then I
would probably say yes. Such as Powerbolt "Doors".

Transformation Manipulations: Very similar to the above reasoning.

Damaging Manipulations on the other hand have to be aimed and have a base
target number just to hit. Generally 4. So if the spell can/has to be
aimed why can't you "AIM"?

All this is of course, IMHO.

My, half a brain cells worth. (75% of what I have left) : P

Ahrain
Message no. 18
From: paul collins paulcollins@*******.com
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 12:57:23 +1000
----- Original Message -----
From: Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2000 6:41 AM
Subject: Re: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic


> At 07:33 PM 6/12/00 +1000, you wrote:
> >Hmm, my first thought is that you really should be able to limit the
> >targetting of ram type spells somehow. (Including 'Turn to Goo'), it's
just
> >comming up with a method to do so. Hell, they shouldn't effect all of a
> >large building anyway.
> >
> >How about making him burn dice to limit the area of effect, ala area
effect
> >spells.
> >The more localised the effect, the more dice reserved from the success
test
> >for changing the area.
> >
> >You should also do similar for enlarging the effect to larger buildings
etc.
>
> Actually I like this idea the best. The building is a single entity for
> purposes of spell targeting, however the spell cannot effect any more area
> than if it were designed with an Area of Effect. Let's call this a Virtual
> Area of Effect (or VAoE). Thus most light vehicles would be wholly
effected
> because the entire vehicle can fit within the
> VAoE but a building cannot because it is simply too large to be effected
as
> a whole. So if you cast a Ram against a building it will probably only
> damage a large section of wall (nearest the caster). Likewise if you were
> to cast Turn to Goo against a lock, the target would actually be the
> building but only the lock, the door, and a good portion of the
surrounding
> wall, ceiling, and floor would be effected.
>
> Of course the spell could be limited during the design phase but someone
> else already covered that quite well.
>
> Makes sense to me. YMMV.
>
>
>
> Wolfchild - "Life ain't easy for a troll named Sue."
> --
> "Quin tu istanc orationem hinc veterem atque antiquam amoves?"
> -Plautus, Miles Gloriosus "There are nights when the wolves
> are silent and only the moon howls." -George Carlin
> Wolfchild <nathan.olsen@*******.msus.edu>
>


The idea is still a little underdeveloped, but thanks for the comments.

After I wrote the above I then when on to think of a building as a number of
structural support elements, and how magic could be used to bring such a
building down. ) There's the toss a truckload of Super Phosphate and
diesel at it approach, or tightly focused, precision placed charges
approach. Both should be possible with magic. (Course I wouldn't like to
be the mage walking around blowing out support members with a Ram touch
spell)

I was also thinking, the more powerful the spell causing the effect, the
more dificult it should be to limit the effect to what you want. (With the
explosive effects especially) After all, theres a difference between
blowing out a lock, and sending it through the wall opposite :o)

Again though, you run accross some factors that GM's may want to limit
someway. (Annachie the mage walks up to the old style tumbler lock, pulls
out the fibre optic probe, and turns the tumblers too goo [Or perhaps melts
them with a minute acid ball] thus breakig the mechanism, but leaving the
casing intact)

Annachie



I will not draw naked ladies in class
---Bart's Blackboard
Message no. 19
From: Peter Kristiansen sds@**.auc.dk
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 08:44:51 +0200 (W. Europe Daylight Time)
On Mon, 12 Jun 2000, Ahrain wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
> Subject: Re: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
>
>
> > Which is the essence of my question, as I see it: can doors or locks be
> > targeted separately from the building they are in? If you can, then you
> > can IMHO also target wheels or windows of cars. Unless a building is not
> > considered a single target, but then the question becomes: where do you
> > draw the line of what constitutes a single target?
>
> OK, from my experience in playing/GMing mages and the like (which has been
> most of my SR career) I think it honestly depends on the type of spell.
>
> Combat spells: No way, all or nothing unless specifically designed to do so.
> Transformation Manipulations: Again, dido
> Damaging Manipulations: Yes, targeting would be possible.
>
[SNIP Reasoning="Buildings being of one aura."]

I'll agree partially with what I see as general concensus. As long as an
object is relatively small I'll agree. A car even a truck is perceived
as one compound object, equally affected by any spells, ie. no
targetting possible.

What you have to ask yourself is where do you distinguish??
The Earth, one single "entity" with one aura. Should the entirety of
earth by affected if I tried to dig a ditch with a spell?? Clearly not.
Granted, you might disagree with the Earth as having one aura.

How about mountains?? Do they have one aura?? Is it possible to target a
specific part of a mountain?

What I'll do, and have done, is that when objects become sufficiently
large, treat them as a collection of single entities. So, each building
would consist of several single entities. One wall, one door so
on. The general rule (Well, the one i use) is that when the target is
changed, based on the object resistance table (right name??) you are
able to target the individual component. I apply this for all larger
constructs, including ships.

The point is when does something becomes to big to count as one
object?? That is based upon personal preference.

Ofcourse.. YMMV


-----Peter (sds) Kristiansen-----
SRC v0.22 SR1++ SR2+ SR3++ h+ b++(+) B--- UB+ IE+ RN+ W- dk+ sa++ ma++ sh
ad++ ri++ mc-- rk? m- gm M+ P
Message no. 20
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:45:48 +0200
According to NeoJudas, at 13:59 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the street
was...

> > What I would use here is the object resistance rating, and use the
> > Breaking Through barriers rules (SR3 p. 125) to determine damage to the
> > barrier when/if the spell works. [snip rest]
>
> Ah, and in so doing, you create an even worse situation involving building
> damage levels IMO. Your system is "all or nothing". The universe
> ever-so-rarely works that way.

If you see a building as a single target, then this is bad. If you see
each wall, floor, door, roof tile, etc. as a separate target, then it
works well enough (it's slightly more powerful than using explosives, but
not much IMHO).

> > Or did I misinterpret you there, and were you trying to say that to
only
> > turn the door in a building to goo, you'd need Turn Door To Goo, which
> > would affect only the doors in the single target that is the building?
[more snip]
>
> Ah, but you *CAN* do so if the spells are designed as such. You actually
> could have "Power Bolt (Car Tires)" if the spell were specifically designed
> that way. You would not be targeting a specific aura, but merely the spell
> would only be damaging a specific part of it.

This is a question of rules interpretation, I'd say. I would allow a Power
Bolt (Car Tires) spell to only affect tires that are not on a car, because
once the tire is on a car it becomes part of the car and isn't a tire
anymore where magic is concerned. This would make the spell fairly useless
(unless you happen to get involved in a firefight in a tire warehouse or
something ;) but I can see what you mean.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 21
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Buildings, doors, maglocks, and magic
Date: Tue, 13 Jun 2000 11:45:48 +0200
According to TalonMail@***.com, at 16:52 on 12 Jun 00, the word on the
street was...

> As for using TtG on parts of buildings, I've always allowed it. The
> example I use is if I walk up to a car, rap on its door and say to
> someone "what's this?" the most likely answer is "a car". On the
other
> hand, if I walk up to a house, put my hand on the front door and say
> "what's this?" the most likely answer is " a door" not "a
house" or "a
> building".

Okay, so you're saying a house isn't a single entity, but its doors,
walls, etc. are individual targets. Thanks for the more or less official
version :)

> In fact, it's probably too powerful to let single-target spells affect
> entire buildings without being massive area spells.

Those were my thoughts, too, which is why I mentioned increasing in
barrier rating if houses were to be a single target. However, if they are
treated as consisting of a number of separate targets (say, each wall is
one), then this problem doesn't really exist.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

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