Logs for ShadowRN and Associated Mailing Lists

From:	ROBERSON@***.EDU
Subject:	Bullets
Date:	Sat, 10 Apr 93 00:55:43 CET

Message no. 1 Question: Where did people get the idea that hollow tips are the "standard
round" for Shadowrun?
Furthermore: When we're done debating armor, combat pool, and dikote, I have
yet another topic to discuss: Armor!

BTW: I agree with Carter: Bullets are a high-energy blunt attack and dikote
will do nothing more than harden them up. It's the difference between getting
hit by a steel ball at 600 mph and a ball of silly putty at 600 mph. They'll
both hurt, but they will react differently.

How about this: Dikoted bullets halve armor; this can be applied to the
tungsten core or whatever of APDS. That idea is just off the top of my head,
and I realize it's a lame compromise, but again I agree with Carter when he
says it's just a diamond coating.

J Roberson
Rocks, Rocks, Rocks
The mountain's full of Rocks
We like to climb and climb and climb
And here comes Mr Spock, Spock, Spock, Spock. . .
MST3K-Star Trek V

From:	bellovar@***.WISC.EDU
Subject:	Re: Bullets
Date:	Sat, 10 Apr 93 20:56:02 CDT

Message no. 2 From: Roberson@***.EDU

> How about this: Dikoted bullets halve armor; this can be applied to the
> tungsten core or whatever of APDS. That idea is just off the top of my head,
> and I realize it's a lame compromise, but again I agree with Carter when he
> says it's just a diamond coating.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I have been working under
the assumption that APDS ammunition worked in the following fashion:

The round fired strikes the target, weakening the armor.
The APDS round is in many ways carrier, in which an internal
`round' is located within the casing of the APDS round.
This internal round, the sabot, fires as soon as the external
`round' strikes the target, puncturing the weakened armor.

As I understood it, that is how the APDS rounds get their armor
piercing capabilities. And I care not which side of the dikote arguement
you are on, dikoting APDS is a bad idea. No it hasn't been posted as
such, but I imagine it is possible someone has considered doing that...

I know there are a lot of people on this bitnet who know ammunition
FAR better than I, so I would appreciate someone dropping me a line telling
me that either I am right or wrong...

-- CrossFire --

Chris Bellovary bellovar@***.wisc.edu

From:	Jeremy Roberson <ROBERSON@***.EDU>
Subject:	Bullets
Date:	Mon, 12 Apr 1993 19:48:53 -0700

Message no. 3 Here's a round type that everyone seems to have overlooked. It exists in real
life. Behold, the duplex round:
Basically, two slugs in one cartridge, one behind the other. They don't
have the range of a normal round since the second slug takes up powder space.
Basically, you are firing two under-powered slugs. I suggest the following stats
double number of rounds fired but at normal recoil. Therefore, a three-
round bursts lets out 6 bullets. However, each round is at 2 power
individually, or -1 in burst or full-auto.
Or, maybe they're at -2 even in burst. 6 rounds fired at 7S is still
a tough dodge. As you can see, I'm still tweaking the numbers.

I've got a magazine devoted to assault rifles that has an article on ammo and
guns of the future. I could type in some of the data if I get bored. I bought
it while doing laundry at a laundry-mat filled with people who very well may
have been able to verify the effects of bullets on people. I was bored. I'll
get back to you on it.

J Roberson

From:	The Deb Decker <RJR96326@****.UTULSA.EDU>
Subject:	Bullets
Date:	Tue, 17 Aug 1993 08:26:55 -0500

Message no. 4 >> And if you look at the movie Aliens (credits already done:))
>>they talk about 99 bullets in a clip. And the clip is no more big than
>>a walkman... maybe they've found a real time compression algorhythm for
>>bullets :)
Or maybe they weren't using 10mm :)

>>The weight can be beefed up a bit, but not too much, remember that
>>it is a military weapon, made with exotic alloys and plastic compounds.
Many of the other weapons are military-grade as well. I don't have a
problem with the weight, but you ought to have consider a better reason
for it to be that much lighter.

/
\ I / J Roberson
- 0 - "Life's like a movie, write your own ending
/ I \ Keep believing, keep pretending"
+ The Muppets "The Muppet Movie"
+-----------------------------------------------------+

From:	"J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	Bullets
Date:	Mon, 23 May 1994 13:59:42 +0100

Message no. 5 SR has only a few bullets...
normal HE APDS STUN Flectette package...

And it needs more.
Theres some thing about the look in a players eye when they find
out the 'heavy pistol' they have is a 'Glock 27 in 10mm
plastique with the all ceramic frame, firing polypyrole/c15
impact exploding rockshot'
in the game its all the same,but it adds character.

So vary weapons
round
cased.plastic cased.caseless.binary liquid propellant. compressed
air.plastic explosive.electrothermal.

gun
solid steelframe. ceramic. plastic/ceramic. polycarbonate. diamond.
anodised black.blued chrome.
Clip.belt.helix mag.clear mag.LCD display.auto eject.barrel temp
display. custom grips. target grips. filed down sights. fast
aquisition combat sights. guttersnipe sight. betalight
sight.sports tape wrapped handle

bullet
i play Cp 2020 regularly,and have a list of over 30 different
bullets that can be used (not that players can just go out and
pick up a .50 AE THV round at the local 7-11)

The look and feel of a gun make it more real...and reality is
what players need to feel to make the game go well

CHOPPER
Harry Lime is alive!!!
Smurfing U.S.A.

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Bullets
Date:	Mon, 23 May 1994 14:49:35 -0400

Message no. 6 >>>>> "J" == J W Thomas <cm5323@***.AC.UK> writes:

J> SR has only a few bullets...
J> normal HE APDS STUN Flectette package...

J> And it needs more.

Really? I thought guns had one purpose: kill things. I would think that
these would be enough to do the job.

J> Theres some thing about the look in a players eye when they find out the
J> 'heavy pistol' they have is a 'Glock 27 in 10mm plastique with the all
J> ceramic frame, firing polypyrole/c15 impact exploding rockshot' in the
J> game its all the same,but it adds character.

What's this mean, in English? "Glock 27 in 10mm plastique?" This weapon is
made of ceramics and explosives? "Polypyrole/c15 impact exploding
rockshot?" Who's you're writer? This makes absolutly no sense; its' a bunch
of buzzwords strung together.

J> So vary weapons
J> round
J> cased.plastic cased.caseless.binary liquid propellant. compressed
J> air.plastic explosive.electrothermal.

These are propellant/casing types, not round types, per se. Most of them
either a) can't exist (electrothermal), or b) are dangerous to use (binary
propellant), or c) won't work (plastique) for various reasons (usually the
Laws of Physics).

Breakdown:

Cased Plastic: won't work; plastics just don't have the tensile strength to
deal with the high chamber pressures required to fire a projectile at Mach 2.

Binary Propellant: dangerous and inefficient given today's technology. Also
heavier because of the containers required and the metering equipment.

Compressed Air: for darts sure; but compressed air or CO2 just doesn't have
the energy for heavier rounds.

Plastic Explosives: gunpowder doesn't explode; if it did the weapon would
blow up in your face. Gunpowder burns quickly, generating a large volume of
gas which has a lot of energy. Plastique doesn't do this, it just vibrates
a lot when detonated; you weapon would cut itself apart in your hands,
probably taking your hands with it.

Electrothermal: oh, you mean that BS out of the CP Chromebooks? Nice try,
but the physics of it don't add up.

J> gun
J> solid steelframe. ceramic. plastic/ceramic. polycarbonate. diamond.
J> anodised black.blued chrome.

More buzzwords. Most of these are just finishes (anodized and blued
chrome). Gun frames in Shadowrun are already mostly ceramics and plastics,
with steel reinforcement. You still need a steel chamber, though;
Polycarbonate and diamond are too brittle for that.

J> Clip.belt.helix mag.clear mag.LCD display.auto eject.barrel temp
J> display. custom grips. target grips. filed down sights. fast
J> aquisition combat sights. guttersnipe sight. betalight
J> sight.sports tape wrapped handle

These are all icing on the cake having very little effect on the game
mechanics.

J> bullet
J> i play Cp 2020 regularly,and have a list of over 30 different
J> bullets that can be used (not that players can just go out and
J> pick up a .50 AE THV round at the local 7-11)

50 types, do you mean 50 different calibers or 50 different munitions
types? I can eliminate most of them right now: a solid slug in any caliber
up to .50 (ie, a man-portable firearm) will carry more energy, do more
damage, and have better penetration than an explosive round in the same
caliber; the mathematics of physics and thermodynamics prove it.

If you want weird finishes or custom stuff, go nuts, but don't bother with
the bullshit.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== ...and I didn't even need pants! --Dilbert [Scott Adams] ==
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From:	Gian-Paolo Musumeci <musumeci@***.LIS.UIUC.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Bullets
Date:	Mon, 23 May 1994 17:15:53 -0500

Message no. 7 It seems like bullets are bullets - you need stuff like AP, solid-slug,
scattershot, flechette, but why bother with the little stuff...it just slows
the game down.

IMHO, this is a -game- not a simulation of reality...there _is_ a difference.

From:	Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA>
Subject:	Re: Bullets
Date:	Mon, 23 May 1994 22:56:27 -0700

Message no. 8 On Mon, 23 May 1994, Stainless Steel Rat wrote:

>
> Breakdown:
> Cased Plastic: won't work; plastics just don't have the tensile strength to
> deal with the high chamber pressures required to fire a projectile at Mach 2.
>

You are right on everything except this point. There is a company (can't
remember the name right now) which makes a plastic case for the .38
special and MAYBE the .357, memory fails me right now. It has a metal
base (I guess to seal off during expansion) and some wierd thing at the
crimp. Again, memory fails me.
In gaming terms, lighter than standard rounds, but probably not as good
as caseless rounds...
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Chris Yang cyang@*****.ubc.ca
University of British Columbia cyang@******.ubc.ca
Dept of Botany

From:	"J.W.Thomas" <cm5323@***.AC.UK>
Subject:	bullets
Date:	Tue, 24 May 1994 11:49:23 +0100

Message no. 9 Just to clear something for the Rat...
I have approx 25 pistol calibres,20 odd for rifles and MG's
and over 30 different munitions types.
And before you flame this,they've all been worked through by a
player group including a Physics graduate(Hons), three chemists
of varying qualifications,several twilight2000/2300 players and
some gunfreaks.
So thats 1350 possible combinations...

The physics and thermodynamics favor a slug all the time,do they?
But what about wound channeling? expansion? armour penetration?
What do you make the slug out of? hard or soft? heavy or light?
what shape is it? change any of these and the effects can alter
radically.

And remember. Shadow Run is set in 2050, thats 56 years from
now...what changes do you think ballistics and materials science
will have undergone?
if something isn't working yet,or hasn't gone beyond prototype
stages,thats no indication it wount be in the future.

CHOPPER
All things shall come to pass...

From:	Stainless Steel Rat <ratinox@***.NEU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: Bullets
Date:	Tue, 24 May 1994 09:36:43 -0400

Message no. 10 >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Yang <cyang@*****.UBC.CA> writes:

>> Cased Plastic: won't work; plastics just don't have the tensile strength
>> to deal with the high chamber pressures required to fire a projectile at
>> Mach 2.

Chris> You are right on everything except this point. There is a company
Chris> (can't remember the name right now) which makes a plastic case for
Chris> the .38 special and MAYBE the .357, memory fails me right now.

This is a new one (shame on me for not keeping up :). If it's not both,
then it's probably the .38 (lower chamber pressures than the .357).

Chris> It has a metal base (I guess to seal off during expansion) and some
Chris> wierd thing at the crimp. Again, memory fails me.

Hmmm... maybe replacing part of the case with plastics. Yeah, it's
possible, given a sturdy enough weapon to use them in (like shotguns).

Chris> In gaming terms, lighter than standard rounds,

Not significantly lighter for a 6-10 round magazine, but less expensive
(plastics are cheaper than brass).

Of course you can't reload them like you can brass.

Chris> but probably not as good as caseless rounds...

Depends on what you mean by "good" :). Caseless' only saving grace today is
lower mass.

\||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||/
== Rat <ratinox@***.neu.edu> WWW Page: http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/ratinox ==
== "Regis Philbin?" Some kind of plant? --Kwai Chang Caine ==
/||| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |||\

From:	"S.K. Khoo" <S.K.Khoo@*********.AC.UK>
Subject:	Re: bullets
Date:	Tue, 24 May 1994 15:12:07 +0100

Message no. 11 On Tue, 24 May 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:

> The physics and thermodynamics favor a slug all the time,do they?
> But what about wound channeling? expansion? armour penetration?
> What do you make the slug out of? hard or soft? heavy or light?
> what shape is it? change any of these and the effects can alter
> radically.

This is true; armourers ( er, read munitions manufacturers ) have for
a very long time now trying to find the perfect balance between penetration
and maximum tissue trauma upon impact but to no avail - you can only have one
or the other depending on the construction of the round: soft, hard, flat tip,
pointed tip, etc.. This is one thing I forgot to mention the other day when
I posted about the new South African rifle round - it is also claimed ( and
so far verified ) that while the bullet has max penetration, it also explodes
on impact ( eg. like a mercury-tipped bullet ) causing massive tissue trauma:
very deadly ! Like I said earlier, I don't know how they've managed to do
this but I'll check.

From:	Ivy Ryan <ivyryan@***.ORG>
Subject:	Re: bullets
Date:	Tue, 24 May 1994 16:54:41 -0700

Message no. 12 On Tue, 24 May 1994, S.K. Khoo wrote:

> On Tue, 24 May 1994, J.W.Thomas wrote:
>
> > The physics and thermodynamics favor a slug all the time,do they?
>
> This is true; armourers ( er, read munitions manufacturers ) have for
> a very long time now trying to find the perfect balance between penetration

Start with the design of the Cirillo and slotted Cirillo rounds. One
version, just taken off the market, was called the Black Talon. They are
reserved for police only but other makers still sell them. Really good
penetration, and a 90+ percent takedown averege.
Ivy K

From:	The Dragon <JMEYER@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: bullets
Date:	Wed, 2 Nov 1994 17:56:39 EST

Message no. 13 Here's a good one for guys.
Try glass bullets.
Don't laugh just yet. My friend has the equipment to make bullets, so
one day we replaced the lead with some melted glass tubing I got
from chem Lab. We loaded the bullet low, meaning we used less
power that one normally would. This was to help keep the glass from
shattering before it leaves the muzzel(sp?). We made about 10 of
these "glass bullets" and when shot we where all smilles. The
muzzel noise was very low and the bullet held together until impact.
Speaking of impact when the bullet struck it's target (a small sheet of
FBI building material) it turn into what looked like sand but fult like
razor blades. Next test, we went hunting. really we just used one of
my friends rabits I took my shoot.... I thought I missed which was
good at the time. When we came back later the rabbit was dead we
discover a small nick where I had grazed it nothing fatal.
My theory small sharp glass particals cut and slice veins until they
get to the heart where the real damage happens. Rabbit dies of
internal bleeding and heart failure.
Usefulness: you shoot at someone, hit them in the foot, they die
anyway!
Got to love it.

Lead, follow, Do what cha like, but stay out of MY way!
-------The Dragon--------

From:	JASON WRIGHT <JWRIGHT@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: bullets
Date:	Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:08:06 EST

Message no. 14 The Dragon has an interesting idea. It reminds me of a story I heard
about replaceing the lead with water and freezing it. I know sounds
crazy but I was told you can make ice bullets. Anyone else ever hear
of them? The bennifit was supposed to be you get the kill and the
body heat melts the evidance.

From:	Nightfox <DJWA@******.UCC.NAU.EDU>
Subject:	Re: bullets
Date:	Thu, 3 Nov 1994 10:00:14 -0700

Message no. 15 Here's a good one for guys.
>Try glass bullets.
>Don't laugh just yet.

I'm not laughing - from descriptions that I have gotten from friend - they
do exist.

>discover a small nick where I had grazed it nothing fatal.
>My theory small sharp glass particals cut and slice veins until they
>get to the heart where the real damage happens. Rabbit dies of
>internal bleeding and heart failure.
>Usefulness: you shoot at someone, hit them in the foot, they die
>anyway!
>Got to love it.

your theory is very accurate. Crushed glass in the blood stream will tend to
shred arteries and viens besides getting rib of cholesterol from the walls.

From how my old roomate described it, would cap of hollow points with glass
under a small coating of something. It is basically a replacement for mercury,
which is also very nasty inside the human body.

Nightfox

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