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Message no. 1
From: "Andre' Selmer" <031ANDRE@******.wits.ac.za>
Subject: Bullets et al.
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 11:19:29 GMT + 2:00
Would anyone be interested if I tried to come up with rules et al for
the construction and modification of bullets and such?

I would assume that since the decker, the mage, the rigger, the
shaman all have things to do in their spare time (usually related to
their proffession), I don't see why all the streetsam does is sit and
clean his guns or spend the time drinking with his buddies. It might
also add a little bit more variety to Streetsam, as certain bullets
that he manfactures could be a kind 'o trademark (of course these
would have to be the newbie and wanna-be runners as most good runners
prefer NOT to leave trademarks).

This would also allow the character to prepare for certain bullet
types for certain situations, rather than popping off to the local
fixer and saying 'Yo Chummer, me need some silver bullets pronto
like.'

Just an idea

Andre'

-- We exist because you want us to, because you are
|__|__ afraid to fact the facts. We are what you fear
/\ /\ \ in the deep recesses of your soul, yourselves.
|\ /\ /| | It is there in the shadows of your soul and those
|/ \/ \| | of the street that we exist. Through the use of
\/__\/ might, magic, cunning, blood, sweat and tears we
protect you from your fears, from youselves, from
others and keep your utopia, not ours, intact.
Message no. 2
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 10:54:18 -0700
Andre' Selmer wrote:
>
> Would anyone be interested if I tried to come up with rules et al for
> the construction and modification of bullets and such?

Sure, and if you hold off just a bit I'll have that page up with the RL
custom/specialty bullet/ammo info.

-Russ
Message no. 3
From: Fro <fro@***.ab.ca>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 14:37:04 -0600
At 11:19 11/04/96, you wrote:
>
>Would anyone be interested if I tried to come up with rules et al for
>the construction and modification of bullets and such?

Come to think of it, along time ago my teams Merc came up with the idea for
a 'worm bullet' that would penetrate and head for vital organs, or in my
opinion, the warmest place close to the bullet
. I dismissed the idea as being 'beyond his skill' and his
character never followed up. Does anyone have anything related to this? It
seems like a total pipe dream, but it would be interesting to see the
affects of a bullet burrowing through the body of a mage, heading for his
heart, severing the vessels, cutting off blood flow....umm, was i ranting a
bit? sorry about that, just those mages bug the hell out of me!
Message no. 4
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 15:39:47 -0400
>Come to think of it, along time ago my teams Merc came up with the idea for
>a 'worm bullet' that would penetrate and head for vital organs, or in my
>opinion, the warmest place close to the bullet
> . I dismissed the idea as being 'beyond his skill' and his
>character never followed up. Does anyone have anything related to this? It
>seems like a total pipe dream, but it would be interesting to see the
>affects of a bullet burrowing through the body of a mage, heading for his
>heart, severing the vessels, cutting off blood flow....umm, was i ranting a
>bit? sorry about that, just those mages bug the hell out of me!
>
It'd be simpler just to have a guided bullet a la Runaway (the movie with
Tom selleck),
even tho that's closer to a gyrojet than a bullet.

I've got an idea what about a "homing" bullet that would acts as a signal
locator for others in group for tracking or such. You tag the guy and
everyone else can fire on him with a very good chance of hitting, or maybe
it just enhances aim like a smart weapon. I dunno I'm no firearms expert
and it's just an idea.


Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 10:25:20 +1030
>It'd be simpler just to have a guided bullet a la Runaway (the movie with
>Tom selleck),
>even tho that's closer to a gyrojet than a bullet.

That's exactly what it would be... For a bullet to alter its path, it'd
need (at the least) flight controls and a "brain". If it had a rocket
motor, then it'd be a gyrojet. :)

Ignoring the problems right now of actually building flight controls and
a brain into something the size of a bullet... would you _really_ want to
fire off bullets that would cost several thousand (at the least) each??
After all, you're shadowrunners, not armies with massive financial
backing.


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 6
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 22:33:28 -0400
>Ignoring the problems right now of actually building flight controls and
>a brain into something the size of a bullet... would you _really_ want to
>fire off bullets that would cost several thousand (at the least) each??
>After all, you're shadowrunners, not armies with massive financial
>backing.

Ya, but think of it, a to be able to say 'this bullet has your name on it'
and mean it!
Besides, if I were a high paid, drek-hot sniper then'd I'd invest. With the
amount made from one job I'd be able to make the damn bullets.

Okay, what about going back to ball ammo like the old muskets they really
caused nasty wounds because they tended to roll along the inside of the
body tearing everything to merry hell, think what that would do to a mage
that rely's on bodily integrity. heh-heh.
Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 03:23:04 -0400
On Apr 13, 1996 22:33:28, 'Larry <lomion@********.net>' wrote:


>Okay, what about going back to ball ammo like the old muskets they really
>caused nasty wounds because they tended to roll along the inside of the
>body tearing everything to merry hell, think what that would do to a mage
>that rely's on bodily integrity. heh-heh.
>Larry Sica
>lomion@**.cybernex.net
>http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion

Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into a
body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work cut out for
them.

--
Tal Kedem
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tallion@*****.steinmetz.albany.edu
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 8
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 17:17:36 +1030
>Besides, if I were a high paid, drek-hot sniper then'd I'd invest. With the
>amount made from one job I'd be able to make the damn bullets.

You'd spend several THOUSAND nuyen, maybe hundreds of thousands, on ONE
bullet?? *boggle* A bullet which also would not be considerably more
accurate. A bullet's flight time is only a few seconds. Okay, you might
be able to correct a few meters, but is it REALLY worth it? After all, a
drek hot sniper can reliably count on a kill from almost a kilometer
away, anyway. (Image-mag 3, bringing Extreme Range down to Low, maximum
time aiming reducing TN's down to 2, 14S+ damage, 8 to 10 dice or more
for skill, more from combat pool... the target is toast.) The trick in
sniping isn't hitting the target, it's getting the chance to get the shot.

>Okay, what about going back to ball ammo like the old muskets they really
>caused nasty wounds because they tended to roll along the inside of the
>body tearing everything to merry hell, think what that would do to a mage
>that rely's on bodily integrity. heh-heh.

They tend to miss a lot too... The chances of hitting someone from more
than a few dozen meters away were so low as to be safely ignored.
Besides, a modern bullet can still tumble like hell... there have been
documented cases of an entry wound in the upper torso, pointing up, with
a corresponding exit wound in the lower torso...


--
_______________________________________________________________________
/ \
| "As soon as we started programming, we found to our surprise that it |
| wasn't as easy to get programs right as we had thought. Debugging |
| had to be discovered. I can remember the exact instant when I |
| realized that a large part of my life from then on was going to be |
| spent in finding mistakes in my own programs." -- Maurice Wilkes |
| Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au |
\_______________________________________________________________________/
Message no. 9
From: PDL@****.dacom.co.kr
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 96 17:06:13 PDT
---------------Original Message---------------

Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into a
body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work cut out for
them.

--
Tal Kedem
----------End of Original Message----------
I have heard that this can be done with a shotgun cartridge. the cartridge is notched on
either side. The affect is supposed to be that the cartridge penetrates the target then
scatters.

Patrick
Message no. 10
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:58:18 +0100
Larry said on 13 Apr 96...

> I've got an idea what about a "homing" bullet that would acts as a signal
> locator for others in group for tracking or such. You tag the guy and
> everyone else can fire on him with a very good chance of hitting, or maybe
> it just enhances aim like a smart weapon. I dunno I'm no firearms expert
> and it's just an idea.

This might be done, but you'd have to make a *very* tiny transmitter, plus
it has to be able to withstand the stresses that work on it when it's
fired. My guess is that you could fit it into an HMG bullet, but IRL those
tend to over-penetrate the human body (i.e., enter on one side, come out
on the other). What might work is using a dart gun that fires a
transmitter dart, and then modify your smartlink with a receiver, so that
it shows the dart's position on the target.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can I use these condoms on the continent, or do I need a European adaptor?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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Message no. 11
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:58:18 +0100
Larry said on 13 Apr 96...

> Ya, but think of it, a to be able to say 'this bullet has your name on it'
> and mean it!

"What are you doing, Baldrick?"
"I'm carving my name into this bullet, sir."
"Why?"
"You know how they say that there's a bullet with your name on it? Well, I
thought, if I have it, they can't shoot me with it, can they?"

Or something in that spirit :)

> Okay, what about going back to ball ammo like the old muskets they really
> caused nasty wounds because they tended to roll along the inside of the
> body tearing everything to merry hell, think what that would do to a mage
> that rely's on bodily integrity. heh-heh.

Why do that? Spherical bullets are inaccurate at any real distance, and
small-caliber (5.56 mm, 5.45 mm, etc.) can start to tumble after entering
a body, also causing much larger wounds than if it had gone in a straight
line.
As for the mage, well, it's not like he loses Essence due to getting shot,
is it? If he gets a Deadly physical wound, that's another story, but you'd
be better off trying to give him one with some modern anti-personnel round
than spherical bullets.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Can I use these condoms on the continent, or do I need a European adaptor?
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
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Message no. 12
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:41:09 +0300 (EET DST)
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Gurth wrote:

> Can I use these condoms on the continent, or do I need a European adaptor?

Hey man, with the EU this will soon be true!
The European standard is damn tight, let me tell you.

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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Message no. 13
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:43:46 +0300 (EET DST)
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Tal Kedem wrote:

> Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
> rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into a
> body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
> anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work cut out for
> them.

Aren't explosive bullets supposed to kinda do that already? Anyhow,
wouldn't it be easier to just use a hollowpoint and get the bullet to
spread out inside the target effectively than to have detonation inside
the target?

---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
---------------------------------------------
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Message no. 14
From: Matti Aistrich <aistrich@********.hkkk.fi>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:50:28 +0300 (EET DST)
On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Robert Watkins wrote:

> Besides, a modern bullet can still tumble like hell... there have been
> documented cases of an entry wound in the upper torso, pointing up, with
> a corresponding exit wound in the lower torso...
>
Yeah, just look at the "magic bullet" JFK was shot with... changed it's
course seven times or so... :-)


---------------------------------------------
: Perfect is : Matti M. Aistrich :
: only just : :
: good enough! : aistrich@********.hkkk.fi :
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Message no. 15
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:02:01 +0100 (BST)
|Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
|rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into a
|body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
|anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work cut out for
|them.

Ouch!
Sick! And very munchkinous......
--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crack in |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant boulder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal subjects in:-|to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitch-hiker's guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/FA>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ 5++ |
|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans can't|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 16
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 13:15:59 GMT
In message <Pine.OSF.3.91.960414134002.1229D-100000@********.hkkk.fi> Matti Aistrich
writes:

> On Sun, 14 Apr 1996, Gurth wrote:
> > Can I use these condoms on the continent, or do I need a European adaptor?
>
> Hey man, with the EU this will soon be true!
> The European standard is damn tight, let me tell you.

I remember the legend when Russia asked for condoms during World War 2,
and Churchill ordered a million made up, double size, and put into packets
marked "small".

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 17
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:22:20 -0400
>Why do that? Spherical bullets are inaccurate at any real distance, and
>small-caliber (5.56 mm, 5.45 mm, etc.) can start to tumble after entering
>a body, also causing much larger wounds than if it had gone in a straight
>line.
>As for the mage, well, it's not like he loses Essence due to getting shot,
>is it? If he gets a Deadly physical wound, that's another story, but you'd
>be better off trying to give him one with some modern anti-personnel round
>than spherical bullets.
Ya, true but it would be different and make most ppl blink for a sec.
Besides I'm just trying to think of different alternatives to standard
vanilla bullets.

>
Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 18
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 15:25:35 -0400
>Aren't explosive bullets supposed to kinda do that already? Anyhow,
>wouldn't it be easier to just use a hollowpoint and get the bullet to
>spread out inside the target effectively than to have detonation inside
>the target?
Actually explosive rounds explode on impact not on penetration, they hit and
go boom.
Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 19
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 08:41:44 -0500
>|Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
>|rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into a
>|body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
>|anatomy of the target.

>Ouch!
>Sick! And very munchkinous......

Yeah, amazing how the real world can do that. While there isn't an ammo
like this, there are worse things out there. Can anyone say "Black Talon"?

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 20
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 10:49:56 GMT
In message <1.5.4.32.19960414023328.00676c80@**.cybernex.net> Larry writes:
> Okay, what about going back to ball ammo like the old muskets they really
> caused nasty wounds because they tended to roll along the inside of the
> body tearing everything to merry hell, think what that would do to a mage
> that rely's on bodily integrity. heh-heh.

"Ball ammo" was nasty because it was a half-inch sphere of soft lead.
When it hit you, it flattened and distorted and basically caused a pretty
vicious wound, but its low velocity limited penetration: often, musket
balls wouldn't even give through-penetration of a limb. They did produce
large and incapacitating wounds, which at that time were frequently
fatal due to infection.

Apart from anything else, this stuff would stop dead on Kevlar. A .45
hollowpoint would be far more effective, both at penetrating armour and
inflicting damage. A 5.56mm rifle round is even more effective.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 21
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 17:18:17 GMT
In message <1.5.4.32.19960414192535.0067843c@**.cybernex.net> Larry writes:
> Actually explosive rounds explode on impact not on penetration, they hit and
> go boom.

Base fuse or use a delay element. Bullet penetrates five to ten centimetres,
*then* goes boom. Not too hard to do, it's used on 20mm shells today (and
has been for about fifty years).

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 22
From: tsbtal@********.com (Tal Kedem)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 18:10:23 -0400
On Apr 14, 1996 13:02:01, '"A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>' wrote:


>|Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
>|rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully into
a
>|body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the internal
>|anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work cut out for
>|them.

And near reality, what about those "Rhino" bullets or something that came
out recently, and made removing the bullet difficult, as there were slivers
left in the body that cuts a surgeons hands. Many surgeons have refused to
remove such bullets. But that's old news....

>Ouch!
>Sick! And very munchkinous......
>|X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can still say FUCK! Americans
can't|
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I'll bite, and many others have, so sorry for the fluff. FUCK!

--
Tal Kedem
GAT d- s: a--- C++++ ULC>+++ P+>+++ L+>++ E W+ N+ o !K-- w !O M--
V PS+ PE+ Y++ PGP t++ !5 X R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D+ G+ e@ h@ !r y?
- tsbtal@***.pipeline.com - tallion@*****.steinmetz.albany.edu
-tallion@******.net -
"Cthulhu in `96 - Why settle for a lesser evil?"
Message no. 23
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 17:02:28 +1030
>> Actually explosive rounds explode on impact not on penetration, they hit and
>> go boom.

>Base fuse or use a delay element. Bullet penetrates five to ten centimetres,
>*then* goes boom. Not too hard to do, it's used on 20mm shells today (and
>has been for about fifty years).

Explosive bullets don't use detonators, though.


--
*************************************************************************
* .--_ # "My opinions may have changed, but not the fact *
* _-0(#)) # that I'm right." -- Old Fortune Saying *
* @__ )/ # *
* )=(===__==,= # Robert Watkins <---> robertdw@*******.com.au *
* {}== \--==--`= # *
* ,_) \ # "A friend is someone who watches the same *
* L_===__)=, # TV programs as you" *
*************************************************************************
Message no. 24
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 17:08:06 GMT
In message <199604160733.RAA14688@*******.ozemail.com.au> Robert Watkins writes:
>>> Actually explosive rounds explode on impact not on penetration, they hit and
>>> go boom.
>
> >Base fuse or use a delay element. Bullet penetrates five to ten centimetres,
> >*then* goes boom. Not too hard to do, it's used on 20mm shells today (and
> >has been for about fifty years).
>
> Explosive bullets don't use detonators, though.

Then they don't explode, do they? :) You can build a delay element into the
explosive, even if the entire charge is a primary explosive like lead azide
or mercury fulminate. There's room in a 9mm bullet to do that.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 25
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:41:27 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:
> They tend to miss a lot too... The chances of hitting someone from more
> than a few dozen meters away were so low as to be safely ignored.
> Besides, a modern bullet can still tumble like hell... there have been
> documented cases of an entry wound in the upper torso, pointing up,
> with a corresponding exit wound in the lower torso...

Olin started manufacturing a shotgun round a few years ago that had 2
cal.50 soft lead balls, mounted axially, in the tip of a fin
stabilixed nylon sabot. The Idea behind them was that the sabot would
effectively "spit" the balls into the body on impact leaving the nylon
sheath imbedded in the surface.
Message no. 26
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 06:32:27 -0700
> Come to think of it, along time ago my teams Merc came up with the
> idea for a 'worm bullet' that would penetrate and head for vital
> organs, or in my opinion, the warmest place close to the bullet. I
> dismissed the idea as being 'beyond his skill' and his character never
> followed up. Does anyone have anything related to this? It seems like
> a total pipe dream, but it would be interesting to see the affects of a
> bullet burrowing through the body of a mage, heading for his heart,
> severing the vessels, cutting off blood flow....umm, was i ranting a
> bit? sorry about that, just those mages bug the hell out of me!
>Currently Hornady and Speer Bullet companies are looking into this.
certain bullet configurations have a tendency to follow the bone channel
[take a round in the palm of your hand (shot from behind) as you reach
for your shoulder holster and the thing pops out your elbow hitting the
Van Gogh to your side]. This is especially worry-some when dealing with
5.56mm and smaller caliber bullets that fail to tumble before penetration
of the target. There are numerous accounts from Vietnam and Afganistan
where people would be hit near the middle joint of a limb and having the
bullet travel UP the body along the straightest path to exit in or around
the head; very rarely did the round take a downward path.
Message no. 27
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:00:29 -0700
Tal Kedem wrote:
> Or how about a bullet that combines the best of flechette and regular
> rounds. It fires like a regular bullet, but after entry (hopefully
> into a body), it detonates, sending out many sharp slivers into the
> internal anatomy of the target. The DocWagon guys'll have their work
> cut out for them.
> These are "Frangible" bullets. It's one of the reasons for the ban on
the "Black Talon" family of bullets from Winchester Arms here in the U.S.
-- Very Nifty, Neato, WOW -- from the deniable asset's POV. The 100gr
9mmPb and the 90gr 10mm ACP rounds are capable of penetrating 18 layers
of 32oz weave Kevlar, at 25m, giving an entrance wound of 2-3cm and an
exit wound of 15-20 cm on a 175lbm male chest cavity. (corpse testing
provided by NYPD and the US Treasury Dept. -- check out the Congressional
hearings on "Cop Killer" weapons & munitions)
Message no. 28
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:17:31 -0700
Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:
> I remember the legend when Russia asked for condoms during World War 2,
> and Churchill ordered a million made up, double size, and put into packets
> marked "small".

Yup. The US Army Psych Warfare guys followed it up in Vietnam.
Airdropped a load on top of several NVA positions which contained cases,
of the variety Vets use on horses, marked extra small and others marked
medium, with bogus 12inch dia. ones inside.
Message no. 29
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:07:57 -0700
Matti Aistrich wrote:
> Aren't explosive bullets supposed to kinda do that already? Anyhow,
> wouldn't it be easier to just use a hollowpoint and get the bullet to
> spread out inside the target effectively than to have detonation inside
> the target?

Explosive rounds, contrary to popular belief, are intended more for
equipment damage and not as anti-personnel items. (It's a dodge around
the Geneva & Hague Conventions--both outlaw hollow points and
encapsulated rounds for use against "recognized" military personnel.
Message no. 30
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:22:16 -0700
PDL@****.dacom.co.kr wrote:
> I have heard that this can be done with a shotgun cartridge. the cartridge is
notched on either side. The affect is supposed to be that
the cartridge penetra
> I hope you're refering to the slug type as aposed to the pellet/shot
type.
Message no. 31
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:20:07 -0700
Larry wrote:
> Actually explosive rounds explode on impact not on penetration, they
> hit and go boom.

Well, there is APHE, which is different from HEAP.
Message no. 32
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 07:34:13 -0700
Mike Broadwater wrote:
> Yeah, amazing how the real world can do that. While there isn't an
> ammo like this, there are worse things out there. Can anyone say
> "Black Talon"?
> Black Talon <quiver, quiver, sweat> BAD JUJU
Message no. 33
From: Larry <lomion@********.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 18:09:41 -0400
>Base fuse or use a delay element. Bullet penetrates five to ten centimetres,
>*then* goes boom. Not too hard to do, it's used on 20mm shells today (and
>has been for about fifty years).

Ya, 20mm shells. I doubt in SR tach level you could have a reliable and
cost effective
delay element like that in a bullet. And if your lugging arounda cannon
that fires those type shells, (Can we say assault canonn) the Star's gonnas
send and FRT and a SWAT team on your butt anyway.
Larry Sica
lomion@**.cybernex.net
http://www2.cybernex.net/~lomion
-----------------------------------------------
"I see the eyes but not the tears
This is my affliction"
>From "Eyes that last I saw in tears", T.S. Eliot
-----------------------------------------------
Message no. 34
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:24:45 -0700
Robert Watkins wrote:

> Explosive bullets don't use detonators, though.

Depends on the manufacturer's choice of composition -- Winchester Arms
used to have a selection of pistol pills that had a center fire primer
mounted in the tip of a JHP as the initiator and PETN as the primary
charge. I've not used them, but have seen the test results on Balistic
jel blocks...not much left.
Message no. 35
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 09:38:20 -0700
Paul Jonathan Adam wrote:
> Then they don't explode, do they? :) You can build a delay element into
> the explosive, even if the entire charge is a primary explosive like
> lead azide or mercury fulminate. There's room in a 9mm bullet to do
> that.

<Gong!> Wrong answer. Lead azide, picrick(sp?)acid, merc. fulminate are
dual purpose comounds; they can be the initiator or the primary/main
charge. LA & PA are frequently used in center fire primers for your
ammo, MF is used for the blasting caps used in mines/quaries, PA is also
used to make thermal detonators (very temp sensitive). All this means is
that bullets using these compounds do not use detonators, and because
they are all shock sensitive there is no delay element available for them
in anything smaller than a 50cal.
Message no. 36
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:08:14 GMT
> >Base fuse or use a delay element. Bullet penetrates five to ten centimetres,
> >*then* goes boom. Not too hard to do, it's used on 20mm shells today (and
> >has been for about fifty years).
>
> Ya, 20mm shells. I doubt in SR tach level you could have a reliable and
> cost effective delay element like that in a bullet.

Never heard of dark-burn and delayed-ignition tracers? They do those in
5.56mm, let alone 20mm. There's no small-arms explosive ammo because
it's a flagrant violation of the Hague Convention: 20mm can just about be
gotten around because it's an antimateriel weapon with antipersonnel
effect.

Explosive and incendiary ammunition was used for .303 machine guns back in
World War 1 (for Zeppelins and observation balloons), and required a letter
signed by your CO certifying that you were balloon-busting (else you risked
summary exection if forced down and discovered to be using this stuff).

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 37
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:19:10 -0500
Reciently I was reading _Rouge Warrior, Green Team_ (a good book, RL type
stuff, anti-terrorists, very SRish imho) And Dick Marcinko describes a type
of custom bullets he has in a gun. They are called "cookie-cutter" rounds.

There are three elements to a cookie-cutter round. The first is the
knifelike cutter, which opens a huge wound channel. Then comes a small
charge of plastic-based explosive, which widens the path. Finally, a third
charge implodes, causing tremendous, leathal trauma. The whole process
takes less than three one-hundredths of a second...

This is from Dick Marcinko's work itself. As I see it, these rounds could
easily be modified for use in the SR world, use mono-wire to cut with
instead of the blades they use, and use whatever milspec level explosives
they have 205x.

------------------------------------------------
"Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
(Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
trademarks of T$R incorperated)

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Message no. 38
From: ratinox@******.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 19:09:06 GMT
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On Wed, 17 Apr 1996 16:19:10 -0500, gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt
Montgomery) wrote:

>Reciently I was reading _Rouge Warrior, Green Team_ (a good book,
RL type
>stuff, anti-terrorists, very SRish imho)

*snrk*

'RL', he says.

*snicker*

'Like Real Life(tm)', he thinks.

Sorry, chum. This is about as "real life" as Shadowrun, Mack Bolan,
and The Destroyer.

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--
Oh, your standard-issue Big Gun. Equipment Division made it, and now it's
part of my private collection. I was late because I... had to get it.
Message no. 39
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:23:20 -0500
>>Reciently I was reading _Rouge Warrior, Green Team_ (a good book,
>>RL type stuff, anti-terrorists, very SRish imho)

>Sorry, chum. This is about as "real life" as Shadowrun, Mack Bolan,
>and The Destroyer.

So are you saying that the book isn't very real, or that Marcinko doesn't
know what he's talking about? I've never read the series myself, but I do
know who Dick Marcinko is.


Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 40
From: ratinox@******.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 01:46:45 GMT
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On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:23:20 -0500, mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com
(Mike Broadwater) wrote:

>So are you saying that the book isn't very real, or that Marcinko
doesn't
>know what he's talking about?

I do not know about the author's background, so I will not say. But
what he describes is so full of BS it's hilarious. His "tech" bears
as much resemblance to real tech as The Destroyer does to real
martial arts. To wit, it reads well, and that's about it.

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--
Oh, your standard-issue Big Gun. Equipment Division made it, and now it's
part of my private collection. I was late because I... had to get it.
Message no. 41
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:28:08 -0500
>>So are you saying that the book isn't very real, or that Marcinko
>doesn't
>>know what he's talking about?
>
>I do not know about the author's background, so I will not say. But
>what he describes is so full of BS it's hilarious. His "tech" bears
>as much resemblance to real tech as The Destroyer does to real
>martial arts. To wit, it reads well, and that's about it.

I'm not saying that his tech is right (I've never read Marcinko's books
myself, I have a friend who's a big military buff that drools over them though).

Dick Marcinko is an ex-US Navy Seal and founder of Seal Team Six. Again, I
don't know if his tech is right, but I choose to lean torwards the "he knows
of what he speaks" side.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"You only need two things in this world. WD40 to make things go, and duct
tape to make them stop."
Message no. 42
From: ratinox@******.gweep.net (Stainless Steel Rat)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 16:38:35 GMT
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On Fri, 19 Apr 1996 07:28:08 -0500, mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com
(Mike Broadwater) wrote:

>Dick Marcinko is an ex-US Navy Seal and founder of Seal Team Six.

You forgot "writer of adventure fiction". What he knows and what he
*writes* are two very different things, apparantly, based on the
given description.

If you are looking for real information there are plenty of
nonfictional sources to look at. Start with the Compendium of Modern
Firearms and 3G^3 as those are most likely going to be the most use
to you from a gaming perspective. There are numerous firearms
magazines out there to brows through. Reams of FBI ballistics and
related reports can be obtained through any largeish library, some of
which you can find on the Web. And there are tons of books on the
subject.

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--
Oh, your standard-issue Big Gun. Equipment Division made it, and now it's
part of my private collection. I was late because I... had to get it.
Message no. 43
From: Paul@********.demon.co.uk (Paul Jonathan Adam)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 21:10:40 GMT
In message <199604191222.IAA16785@*****.itribe.net> mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com
(Mike Broadwater) writes:
> I'm not saying that his tech is right (I've never read Marcinko's books
> myself, I have a friend who's a big military buff that drools over them
> though).
>
> Dick Marcinko is an ex-US Navy Seal and founder of Seal Team Six. Again, I
> don't know if his tech is right, but I choose to lean torwards the "he knows
> of what he speaks" side.

Consider that he's writing a nonclassified book that is going to be widely
circulated. Would *you* tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth in those circumstances? :)

Dale Brown is ex-SAC aircrew and knows a *lot* about strategic bombers.
Doesn't mean that "Flight of the Old Dog" is technically accurate.

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude
towards him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem.
For better or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." R. A. Lafferty

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 44
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 15:49:51 -0500
>On Thu, 18 Apr 1996 14:23:20 -0500, mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com
>(Mike Broadwater) wrote:
>
>>So are you saying that the book isn't very real, or that Marcinko
>doesn't
>>know what he's talking about?
>
>I do not know about the author's background, so I will not say. But
>what he describes is so full of BS it's hilarious. His "tech" bears
>as much resemblance to real tech as The Destroyer does to real
>martial arts. To wit, it reads well, and that's about it.
>
Would you care to elaborate a little, mabey a few specifics?
------------------------------------------------
"Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
(Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
trademarks of T$R incorperated)

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Message no. 45
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 08:14:28 -0700
Mike Broadwater wrote:
> So are you saying that the book isn't very real, or that Marcinko
> doesn't know what he's talking about? I've never read the series
> myself, but I do know who Dick Marcinko is.
> He has had a tendency to use a little bit of "writer's perogitive" in his
stories with regards to the technical stuff. Things like the cookie
cutter are not physically feasible according to my sunsmith, who is
"retired" from the company. He says the implossion part is the hang up
-- we don't have anything that, when detonated within the target, will
cause an implossion or a colapse of the surrounding tissue/material. In
order to achieve it we would need an FAE on an air tight target --
detonates & pulls a vacuum on the interior through the combustion of the
fuel (Hydrogen works well for this)-- only problem: Target must be at
least the size of a small car, hollow, made of light weight materials,
and be air tight (no holes from projectile penetrations).
Message no. 46
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 16:43:51 -0500
> He has had a tendency to use a little bit of "writer's perogitive" in his
>stories with regards to the technical stuff. Things like the cookie
>cutter are not physically feasible according to my sunsmith, who is
>"retired" from the company. He says the implossion part is the hang up
>-- we don't have anything that, when detonated within the target, will
>cause an implossion or a colapse of the surrounding tissue/material. In
>order to achieve it we would need an FAE on an air tight target --
>detonates & pulls a vacuum on the interior through the combustion of the
>fuel (Hydrogen works well for this)-- only problem: Target must be at
>least the size of a small car, hollow, made of light weight materials,
>and be air tight (no holes from projectile penetrations).
>

A. I don't know what a "sunsmith" is/
B. A "cookie cutter" round is a REAL round. The bullet dosen't impload the
surronding tissue, it dosen't say anywhere that it does, all that happens is
that the round itself imploads so that it isn't inside the wound in one piece.
------------------------------------------------
"Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
(Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
trademarks of T$R incorperated)

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Message no. 47
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 19:18:53 -0700
Kurt Montgomery wrote:
>
> > He has had a tendency to use a little bit of "writer's perogitive" in
his
> >stories with regards to the technical stuff. Things like the cookie
> >cutter are not physically feasible according to my sunsmith, who is
> >"retired" from the company. He says the implossion part is the hang up
> >-- we don't have anything that, when detonated within the target, will
> >cause an implossion or a colapse of the surrounding tissue/material. In
> >order to achieve it we would need an FAE on an air tight target --
> >detonates & pulls a vacuum on the interior through the combustion of the
> >fuel (Hydrogen works well for this)-- only problem: Target must be at
> >least the size of a small car, hollow, made of light weight materials,
> >and be air tight (no holes from projectile penetrations).
> >
>
> A. I don't know what a "sunsmith" is/

OOPS! Too many fingers under that thumb .... couldn't be the JD ... must
be the beer.

> B. A "cookie cutter" round is a REAL round. The bullet dosen't
> impload the surronding tissue, it dosen't say anywhere that it does,
> all that happens is that the round itself imploads so that it isn't
> inside the wound in one piece.

You missed the word "or"
And no not as he describes it's construction or its effect. The lab boys
at Eglin are still working on the imploding part -- have been since '82
as far as I know (that's when an associate of mine started working on
some special camera equipment they needed for filming its impact &
deformation patern). As for the being in one piece ... check out some of
the FBI footage on JHP and Frangible bullet effects neither one stays in
one piece -- especially when they hit bone. BTW I had to assist with a
poaching recovery last weekend -- the terdball used a 115gr S&W Silver
Tip on a white tail doe, her insides looked like a strawberry milkshake
run through a vegamatic, she was hit in the upper pelvis as she was
running away -- butt Shot. There simply no solid organs until you
reached her heart. The Vet & I counted 37 exit wounds from schratnel due
to bone chips & bullet fragments. My understanding from the State Police
Forensics Unit is that this is not uncommon for this type of ammunition
and is considered to be a milder threat than the Black Talon family of
ammo.
> ------------------------------------------------
> "Where a rat can go, two Kender will be." -Human Proverb
> (Rat, Two, Kender, Will, and Human are all regestered
> trademarks of T$R incorperated)
>
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> -----END GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Message no. 48
From: mbroadwa@*******.glenayre.com (Mike Broadwater)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 08:00:31 -0500
>My understanding from the State Police
>Forensics Unit is that this is not uncommon for this type of ammunition
>and is considered to be a milder threat than the Black Talon family of
>ammo.
That's because, as I understand it, Black Talon family uses a lead core that
stays together better, and instead of framenting and blowing all over the
place, spins and bounces, drilling your insides rather than blowing through
them.

Mike Broadwater
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon
"Madness takes it's toll. Please have exact change."
Message no. 49
From: gilean@****.muscanet.com (Kurt Montgomery)
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 16:08:05 -0500
>BTW I had to assist with a
>poaching recovery last weekend -- the terdball used a 115gr S&W Silver
>Tip on a white tail doe, her insides looked like a strawberry milkshake
>run through a vegamatic, she was hit in the upper pelvis as she was
>running away -- butt Shot. There simply no solid organs until you
>reached her heart. The Vet & I counted 37 exit wounds from schratnel due
>to bone chips & bullet fragments. My understanding from the State Police
>Forensics Unit is that this is not uncommon for this type of ammunition
>and is considered to be a milder threat than the Black Talon family of
>ammo.
Ouch, isn't that a bit of overkill for hunting? I mean, isn't the point of
hunting to have some MEAT left to take home?
Message no. 50
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 09:42:06 +0100
Kurt Montgomery <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 16:08/25 Apr 96...

> >BTW I had to assist with a
> >poaching recovery last weekend -- the terdball used a 115gr S&W Silver
> >Tip on a white tail doe, her insides looked like a strawberry milkshake
> >run through a vegamatic, she was hit in the upper pelvis as she was
> >running away -- butt Shot. There simply no solid organs until you
> >reached her heart.
> Ouch, isn't that a bit of overkill for hunting? I mean, isn't the point of
> hunting to have some MEAT left to take home?

Maybe the poacher wanted minced meat in one, easy step? :)

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Message no. 51
From: Hairy Smurf <ab130f92@*******.adelphi.edu>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:54:03 -0400 (EDT)
At 09:42 4/26/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Kurt Montgomery <shadowrn@********.itribe.net> said on 16:08/25 Apr 96...
>
>> >BTW I had to assist with a
>> >poaching recovery last weekend -- the terdball used a 115gr S&W Silver
>> >Tip on a white tail doe, her insides looked like a strawberry milkshake
>> >run through a vegamatic, she was hit in the upper pelvis as she was
>> >running away -- butt Shot. There simply no solid organs until you
>> >reached her heart.
>> Ouch, isn't that a bit of overkill for hunting? I mean, isn't the point of
>> hunting to have some MEAT left to take home?
>
>Maybe the poacher wanted minced meat in one, easy step? :)
>
>--
>Gurth@******.nl

Correct me if I'm wrong but with all her organs ripped to shit below her
heart doesn't that make the meat uneatable? With the liver and intestines
destroyed all of the bacteria and whatnot would spoil the meat. This guy
only wanted a trophy.

Sasquatch
(The technican formerly known as BLAIR)

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Message no. 52
From: Russ Myrick <rm91612@****.net>
Subject: Re: Bullets et al.
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 01:10:23 -0700
Hairy Smurf wrote:
> >Maybe the poacher wanted minced meat in one, easy step? :)
> >
> Correct me if I'm wrong but with all her organs ripped to shit below
> her heart doesn't that make the meat uneatable? With the liver and
> intestines destroyed all of the bacteria and whatnot would spoil the
> meat. This guy only wanted a trophy.
> Most likely. He, at least we assume it was a he, did leave the carcas
behind. Of course it could be a test of a new method of dressing the
kill for spitting on the barby. In any event it wasn't even useful for
dog food.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Bullets et al., you may also be interested in:

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