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From:	Niels Broberg <nilbabo@****.internet.dk>
Subject:	Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sat, 15 Jun 1996 17:30:15 +0200

Message no. 1 At 18:28 14-06-96 +0000, Sambo(Sparhawk) wrote:

>Not silly at all, there have been several revolvers made that have had
>anywhere from 7 to 9 chambers. These are mostly .22's of course.
>But you can get custom cylinders for .38/.357 revolvers with an extra
>chamber. I used to have a .22 mag revolver with 9 chambers.
>Considering this round has the power of a .38, is a LOT more accurate
>and has loads more penetration - this is a respectable amount of
>firepower in a revolver.
>
> ***Sparhawk***

Well, just a small question and hopefully not the start of a big
supercalifrajilistic ammo(tm) discussion what's the main difference between
a "regular" round and a magnum round ? Sambo wrote about a .22 cal mag.
being more powerfull than a .38 cal - a .38 cal is nearly twice as big as a
.22 - how can this be ?

Niels>Who doesn't know >that< much 'bout guns>

From:	Jeff Perrin <jperrin@*********.net>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:04:05 -0400

Message no. 2 Niels Broberg wrote:
> Well, just a small question and hopefully not the start of a big
> supercalifrajilistic ammo(tm) discussion what's the main difference between
> a "regular" round and a magnum round ? Sambo wrote about a .22 cal mag.
> being more powerfull than a .38 cal - a .38 cal is nearly twice as big as a
> .22 - how can this be ?
>
> Niels>Who doesn't know >that< much 'bout guns>

as I recall it (I could be wrong since it has been awhile) a magnum
round has the same diameter as a regular version of the round but has a
larger powder charge and is longer in length. With the larger amount of
charge the bullet hits with more force. Might also have a large slug
but I dont remember for sure.

--
Luc aka BobW

EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME! EXCUSE ME!
BUT THE CORPSE STILL HAS THE FLOOR!!
--Kevin Spacey as Lloyd in The Ref (1994)

From:	"Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sat, 15 Jun 1996 12:06:52 +0000

Message no. 3 > At 18:28 14-06-96 +0000, Sambo(Sparhawk) wrote:
>
> >Not silly at all, there have been several revolvers made that have had
> >anywhere from 7 to 9 chambers. These are mostly .22's of course.
> >But you can get custom cylinders for .38/.357 revolvers with an extra
> >chamber. I used to have a .22 mag revolver with 9 chambers.
> >Considering this round has the power of a .38, is a LOT more accurate
> >and has loads more penetration - this is a respectable amount of
> >firepower in a revolver.
> >
> > ***Sparhawk***
>
> Well, just a small question and hopefully not the start of a big
> supercalifrajilistic ammo(tm) discussion what's the main difference between
> a "regular" round and a magnum round ? Sambo wrote about a .22 cal mag.
> being more powerfull than a .38 cal - a .38 cal is nearly twice as big as a
> .22 - how can this be ?
>
> Niels>Who doesn't know >that< much 'bout guns>

Here is why a .22 magnum round has more energy than a .38 special:
if you take a bullet and double its mass you merely double its
energy. If you take a bullet and double its velocity, its energy is
quadrupled! The more common round for a .38 is 158 grains, and
usually has a muzzle velocity of about 1000 feet per second (fps) and
300 ft-lbs of energy. A .22 mag travels at about 2300-2500 fps, even
though it's only about 60 grains it will still have the same or more
energy because of its velocity. And because of its smaller diameter
and faster speed it has a lot better penetration.

To answer your question about magnum vs. non-magnum rounds:
the magnum round has a longer case, it can hold more powder. For
example, the .357 mag is .18" longer than the .38 special. These are
the same caliber but different characteristics. Just as an aside,
the 9mm is only .001" larger than the .357 caliber. However, DONT
try putting .38/.357 rounds in a 9mm! You can however fire .38's in
a gun chambered for .357, not the reverse. I often do this when I teach someone how
to fire a gun, there's a lot less recoil for them to handle. The .22
mag is significantly longer than a .22 long rifle cartridge.

Also, for each round there are usually bullets available with
different weights, shapes and methods of fabrication which can all
drastically affect the performance of the bullet. Bullets for the
.38/.357 round range from 110 grains to 185. The best overall
manstopper is the 125 grain bullet. This one can travel at about
1300-1600 fps depending on the powder charge and which weapon you are
shooting it in. IOW don't shoot the higher velocity rounds in
cheaper weapons, your weapon won't last as long! I hope this has
shed some light on the subject? If you have any more questions, feel
free to ask, it's one of my favorite subjects. FYI I've been
reloading my own rounds for about 14 years, no I'm not THAT old!
I've also tried to stay away from the more controversial aspects of
ammo performance. Also notice that I didn't have very specific info on
the .22 mag, I was just going from memory.

Disclaimer: This is BASIC information that is intended for
discussional purposes only! The reader takes full responsibility for
their own actions. As always, if you have a weapon read the
instructional manual and when in doubt, DONT! It's always best to
ask the guy behind the counter at your local gun store.

***Sparhawk***

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sat, 15 Jun 1996 23:00:15 +0100

Message no. 4 In message <2.2.32.19960615153015.0073b4e8@****.internet.dk>, Niels
Broberg <nilbabo@****.internet.dk> writes
>Well, just a small question and hopefully not the start of a big
>supercalifrajilistic ammo(tm) discussion what's the main difference between
>a "regular" round and a magnum round ? Sambo wrote about a .22 cal mag.
>being more powerfull than a .38 cal - a .38 cal is nearly twice as big as a
>.22 - how can this be ?

Historically. it dates from 1931 or so. Smith and Wesson offered the
".357 Magnum", which was a .44 revolver firing a high-power high-
pressure round. Basically an uploaded .38 Special (.38SPL is actually
9mm./.357 of an inch in diameter, .357 Magnum is the 'correct' size).

Since some comedian would naturally try putting these new cartriges in
an ordinary .38 revolver, S&W lengthened the case by 0,1 inch, so .357s
wouldn't chamber in a .38 (though the reverse is true). There's no need
for it - a .38 case is mostly empty space anyway - except safety.

'Magnum' is an advertising name like "ACP" (Automatic Colt Pistol),
"Express", "Winchester" et al. and generally signifies either a higher
muzzle velocity, a heavier bullet, or sometimes both, than a 'standard'
round. 'Power' is controversial - depends whether you measure momentum,
energy, energy density, whatever - but .22 Magnum is a very punchy round
compared to the familiar .22LR, and .22LR kills plenty of people every
year.

Also, I know a 74-year-old gentleman who shoots .44 Magnums - heavily
downloaded because his arthritis gets to him :) Just because the
weapon's a 'Magnum' doesn't mean the ammunition is.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sat, 15 Jun 1996 17:23:31 +0000

Message no. 5 Paul said:
> Historically. it dates from 1931 or so. Smith and Wesson offered the
> ".357 Magnum", which was a .44 revolver firing a high-power high-
> pressure round. Basically an uploaded .38 Special (.38SPL is actually
> 9mm./.357 of an inch in diameter, .357 Magnum is the 'correct' size).

The .38 spl was originally a black powder round. This is the round
that the .357 evolved from, not the .44. I looked up the length to,
both of us were wrong, it's .135" longer. It was developed in 1935
and the handgun that was put out was based on the frame of the
current .44 target model .
Source: The Hornady Handbook.

I've never met any British soldiers although while in Arabia we did
talk with some of the French Legionarres (sp?), they had some REALLY
nice toys!:)

A solution for Glock fans is to get the metal mags. They slide out
much better. And I've never yet had a metal clip hit the ground lips
first, even with a couple rounds still in it. And I'm sorta tall:)

***Sparhawk***

From:	"Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:46:12 +0100

Message no. 6 Jeff Perrin said on 12:04/15 Jun 96...

> as I recall it (I could be wrong since it has been awhile) a magnum
> round has the same diameter as a regular version of the round but has a
> larger powder charge and is longer in length. With the larger amount of
> charge the bullet hits with more force. Might also have a large slug
> but I dont remember for sure.

The longer case was, AFAIK, only adopted to prevent dumb people from
loading .357 Magnums into a .38 Special revolver, and thereby wrecking
the gun or injuring themselves in some way. That's also the reason they
changed the "caliber" -- actually both are virtually identical in
diameter (a very little bit over 9 mm) so you only need one barrel to fire
either round.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You can blow out a candle, but you can't blow out a fire
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

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From:	"Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sun, 16 Jun 1996 03:33:07 +0000

Message no. 7 > Jeff Perrin said on 12:04/15 Jun 96...
>
> > as I recall it (I could be wrong since it has been awhile) a magnum
> > round has the same diameter as a regular version of the round but has a
> > larger powder charge and is longer in length. With the larger amount of
> > charge the bullet hits with more force. Might also have a large slug
> > but I dont remember for sure.

Slugs for .38/.357 come in weights from 110 to 185 grains. Although
with the lighter bullets you have to watch your muzzle velocity with
non-jacketed bullets to prevent them from leading your barrell. Of
course if you do use a jacketed bullet and try to push it faster it's
going to create more pressure when fired. I.E. if the case expands
too much it could damge it or you could have extraction problems.

> The longer case was, AFAIK, only adopted to prevent dumb people from
> loading .357 Magnums into a .38 Special revolver, and thereby wrecking
> the gun or injuring themselves in some way. That's also the reason they
> changed the "caliber" -- actually both are virtually identical in
> diameter (a very little bit over 9 mm) so you only need one barrel to fire
> either round.

The .38/.357 rounds are identical in diameter, the only difference is
length. Since I mentioned it before you're probably aware that you
can fire .38's in a .357, not the reverse. However the chamber size
for both weapons is traditionally the same. This is why when
reloading .357's I have to watch the bullet seating depth to prevent
malfunctions.

***Sparhawk***

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sun, 16 Jun 1996 12:52:32 +0100

Message no. 8 In message <199606160019.RAA17550@*****.csrv.uidaho.edu>, Sambo
<polan881@******.edu> writes
>Paul said:
>> Historically. it dates from 1931 or so. Smith and Wesson offered the
>> ".357 Magnum", which was a .44 revolver firing a high-power high-
>> pressure round. Basically an uploaded .38 Special (.38SPL is actually
>> 9mm./.357 of an inch in diameter, .357 Magnum is the 'correct' size).
>
>The .38 spl was originally a black powder round. This is the round
>that the .357 evolved from, not the .44. I looked up the length to,
>both of us were wrong, it's .135" longer. It was developed in 1935
>and the handgun that was put out was based on the frame of the
>current .44 target model .

That's what I meant to say, that the revolver used was a .44, just not
bored out so much (because of the hotter load, presumably).

>A solution for Glock fans is to get the metal mags. They slide out
>much better. And I've never yet had a metal clip hit the ground lips
>first, even with a couple rounds still in it. And I'm sorta tall:)

Using an assault rifle during a section attack - or worse still,
clearing houses - and you do tend to have magazines flying about a
little :)

With my Glock 21 I find occasionally spraying the magazines and well
with WD-40 means that they fall free with a slight 'flick' of the wrist,
good enough for me. Doing it thataway means they hit base first.

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

From:	"Sambo" <polan881@******.edu>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sun, 16 Jun 1996 05:50:54 +0000

Message no. 9 Paul Said:
> With my Glock 21 I find occasionally spraying the magazines and well
> with WD-40 means that they fall free with a slight 'flick' of the wrist,
> good enough for me. Doing it thataway means they hit base first.

I'm a big fan of Glocks but I could never get one. Upon ejecting the
case a Glock has a nasty habbit of putting a little dent in the neck
of the case which makes reloading impractical and possibly a bit
unsafe. I still drool when I look at them though, especially the
ones that come with the integral laser sight! Yes, it was only a
joke - I do like lasers. My physad actually uses one, don't want to
lose any of that precious essence!
***Sparhawk***

From:	"Paul J. Adam" <shadowrn@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject:	Re: Bullet types (Was:Re: Speed Kills (was Low Powered...))
Date:	Sun, 16 Jun 1996 20:07:41 +0100

Message no. 10 In message <199606161246.FAA04518@*****.csrv.uidaho.edu>, Sambo
<polan881@******.edu> writes
>I'm a big fan of Glocks but I could never get one. Upon ejecting the
>case a Glock has a nasty habbit of putting a little dent in the neck
>of the case which makes reloading impractical and possibly a bit
>unsafe.

Never had that happen, and I make my own ammo... might be a calibre
thing? Certainly the 21 seems viceless, the only trouble it's ever given
me has been stoppages with dirty cases (before I got a tumbler and could
clean them properly).

--
"There are four kinds of homicide: felonious, excusable, justifiable and
praiseworthy."
Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"
Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk

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