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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Wed May 16 12:30:02 2001
Damian Sharp writes:

> I'm with you on burnout mages. Not my cup of tea.
>
> A mage down 1 Magic point isn't really unusual. There's a lot of little
> things that can be worth the slight drawback.
>
> Starting down 2 points can be a disadvantage, but doable, assuming you're
> going to initiate & such.

One of my players designed a burned out mage with 1 Magic. He was a Grade 1
Initiate, with 6 points of cyber/bio and 3 Geasa (I think). The character
was really really good, actually. He was basically a sammy type, but he
could Mask his aura and cast a whole host of utility spells (which tended to
have low drain, for obvious reasons). It was quite an innovative character.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damian Sharp)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 05:30:01 2001
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Damion Milliken wrote:

> Damian Sharp writes:
>
> > I'm with you on burnout mages. Not my cup of tea.
> >
> > A mage down 1 Magic point isn't really unusual. There's a lot of little
> > things that can be worth the slight drawback.
> >
> > Starting down 2 points can be a disadvantage, but doable, assuming you're
> > going to initiate & such.
>
> One of my players designed a burned out mage with 1 Magic. He was a Grade 1
> Initiate, with 6 points of cyber/bio and 3 Geasa (I think). The character
> was really really good, actually. He was basically a sammy type, but he
> could Mask his aura and cast a whole host of utility spells (which tended to
> have low drain, for obvious reasons). It was quite an innovative character.

I can definately see where a burned out mage can be interesting, possibly
effective, and I'm sure there are people who'd like to play them.

All in all, I'd probably do what you described above as an adept, with
magical power, and forgo some of the cyber for magic powers that duplicate
it (though there's always that cyber stuff magic doesn't do). Neither way
is really better, it's just personal preference.

Though, now I'm kinda curious. Anyone else play a burned-out mage? If so,
why?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Graduate |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Ridiculous Lucky Captain Rabbit King,
Lucky Captain Rabbit King Nuggets are for the youth."
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 10:25:01 2001
Damian Sharp writes:

> Though, now I'm kinda curious. Anyone else play a burned-out mage? If so,
> why?

While not a burned out mage, one of my players, back in SRII days, when
Physical Adept reaction increasing powers cost a veritable fortune, got
himself well and truely cybered with move-by-wire, cause it cost the same or
less Magic and gave a much better result. He was like a Grade 3 Initiate,
with an Essence of just above zero. This actually occurred during the
course of the game, too.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Lars Wagner Hansen)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 16:40:00 2001
From: "Damian Sharp" <zadoc@***.neu.edu>

> Though, now I'm kinda curious. Anyone else play a burned-out mage?
If so,
> why?

Back just before SR2 was published I created a Physical Adept with an
unusual power, actually is was just the levitate spell at a force of
4, so I recon he should now be classified as a Magician Adept
(Physical Mage in SR2/Awakenings). He was from Tibet, and didn't know
a lot about modern ways of living, the big city, money, cyberware,
cars or anything that almost all the other characters knew. He was
adept (pun intended) in the physical ways, and was struggeling to
understand everything magic. He was the most fun and interesting
character I ever played, and I'll always remember him.

He lost his first point of magic after being shot at severely, and
failing the magic loss test. A bit later he was again severely wounded
and again failed his magic loss test. It was in his spirit not to take
the geas, and was thus doomed to go the way of the burn-out (those
were the days!).

Lafter he got a datajackt implanted (he saw everybody else had one),
and lost another magic point.

Shortly after that I had to quit the campaign, but wrote the rest of
his story. He traveled to Berlin, wher he was introduced to all kinds
of drugs, and ended up being a BTL addict. He ended his days in the
gutters of Berlin...

Lars
--
Lars Wagner Hansen, Jagtvej 11, 4180 Sorø
l-hansen@*****.tele.dk http://home4.inte.tele.dk/l-hansen
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 18:00:01 2001
Being the cyberware advocate that I am, I'm all about burned-out mages,
especially in SR3. Here's why...

1. Because casting is now almost fully dependent on a skill to be
effective, training the skill makes you more powerful regardless of the
force of the spell as your dice pool will overwhelm the resistance pool of
the target pretty quickly in a lot of cases.

2. Cybered mages get some serious advantages over their less capable
counterparts, especially in the realm of extra actions in combat
situations. Casting one spell each round is okay, but casting two or three
is obviously better.

3. Drain is easier to resist in SR3, so there is little reason to fear it.
Keep spells to odd forces (5's are best) and you'll have no trouble
resisting drain and avoiding the nasty physical damage.

4. While it's a munchy thing to do, you can heal physical damage... so even
if you do take drain damage from a spell of a force greater than your magic
rating, you can heal/treat it.

So burnouts, while not everyone's cup of tea, are certainly viable from a
numbers standpoint and I would suspect not uncommon in SR. I know that the
fiction often plays up the "I'm a mage, don't mess with my essence!" aspect
of the game, but practicality would demand otherwise in a few cases. I,
personally, would count these among my favorite mages of all.

__________________________________

Bob Ooton rbooton@*****.edu
aka TopCat, the cyberware advocate
__________________________________
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (skippy)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 18:30:01 2001
> Though, now I'm kinda curious. Anyone else play a burned-out mage? If so,
> why?
>

Well, I played a burned out sorcerous adept once. He was a former military
mage, that got mangled really bad. After the botched surgery he lost some
essence. He kept getting cyber implants trying to make up for his lost
magical ability, creating a vicious cycle. (This wasn't in the game, but it
woulda been neat if it was.) This was just the background for the char.
It was done that way because me and the GM found it interesting.

By the way, does anybody know Brian Seagrove? He used to be active on this
list, as I understand it. I'm trying to track him down.
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Keith Duthie)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 18:30:08 2001
On Thu, 17 May 2001, Bob Ooton wrote:

> 4. While it's a munchy thing to do, you can heal physical damage... so even
> if you do take drain damage from a spell of a force greater than your magic
> rating, you can heal/treat it.

Bollocks. SR3 p162. "Physical damage caused by Drain cannot be healed
using magic, only by rest and medical attention."

--
Understanding is a three edged sword. Do you *want* to get the point?
http://www.albatross.co.nz/~psycho/ O- -><-
Standard disclaimer: Opinions expressed in this message are unlikely to
be mine, let alone anybody elses...
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Rand Ratinac)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 22:15:06 2001
Bob, on the whole I don't disagree with you, although
I prefer small amounts of enhancements to my mages,
rather than burnouts, but...

<snipt!(TM)>
> 3. Drain is easier to resist in SR3, so there is
little reason to fear it. Keep spells to odd forces
(5's are best) and you'll have no trouble resisting
drain and avoiding the nasty physical damage.

Really, how do you figure this? There have been no
changes to the drain rules that I know of. How come
it's now easier to resist?

> 4. While it's a munchy thing to do, you can heal
physical damage... so even if you do take drain damage
from a spell of a force greater than your magic
rating, you can heal/treat it
<snipt!(TM)>
> Bob Ooton rbooton@*****.edu

Sorry, Bob, that's so wrong it's funny. :) You CANNOT
heal physical damage incurred by drain by magical
means.

That makes spellcasting on the astral particularly
nasty, as all drain taken there is physical.

====Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow, aka Doc'booner, aka Doc' Vader)

.sig Sauer

If you SMELL what THE DOC' is COOKIN'!!!

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Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Sebastian Wiers)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Thu May 17 23:30:01 2001
>Being the cyberware advocate that I am, I'm all about burned-out mages,
>especially in SR3. Here's why...

And why not. Matter of tase, I guess...

>1. Because casting is now almost fully dependent on a skill to be
>effective, training the skill makes you more powerful regardless of the
>force of the spell as your dice pool will overwhelm the resistance pool of
>the target pretty quickly in a lot of cases.

Partly true- resisted spells will work that way, and skill is certainly a
bigger factor now, and magic rating a bit less. However, many spells now
include force based limitation on effect that they did not in Sr2.

>2. Cybered mages get some serious advantages over their less capable
>counterparts, especially in the realm of extra actions in combat
>situations. Casting one spell each round is okay, but casting two or three
>is obviously better.

Mayabe so, but Intiates can achieve that without cyber, and with few
drawbacks. Burn-outs by defeination can't be initaites, right?

>3. Drain is easier to resist in SR3, so there is little reason to fear it.
>Keep spells to odd forces (5's are best) and you'll have no trouble
>resisting drain and avoiding the nasty physical damage.

How is drain easier to resist? If you are casting multiple spell per turn
your spell pool will run out (only refreshes once per turn in Sr3)- then you
are resiting drain with just willpower dice.

>4. While it's a munchy thing to do, you can heal physical damage... so even
>if you do take drain damage from a spell of a force greater than your magic
>rating, you can heal/treat it.

No. Damage cause by drain can NOT be healed using any sort of magic, only
normal mundane healing. See p. 162.

>So burnouts, while not everyone's cup of tea, are certainly viable from a
>numbers standpoint and I would suspect not uncommon in SR. I know that the
>fiction often plays up the "I'm a mage, don't mess with my essence!" aspect
>of the game, but practicality would demand otherwise in a few cases. I,
>personally, would count these among my favorite mages of all.

Yeah, they are fun, and have appropriate niches. One nich they fall down
badly in is astral space, sionce astral evasion and fast movement are based
on magic rating.

-Mongoose
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Burned Out Mages
Date: Sat May 19 18:05:01 2001
In article <4.1.20010517162758.0092b1f0@****.norton.antivirus>, Bob
Ooton <rbooton@*****.edu> writes
>So burnouts, while not everyone's cup of tea, are certainly viable from a
>numbers standpoint and I would suspect not uncommon in SR. I know that the
>fiction often plays up the "I'm a mage, don't mess with my essence!" aspect
>of the game, but practicality would demand otherwise in a few cases. I,
>personally, would count these among my favorite mages of all.

I personally think that many rational mages would consider sacrificing
some raw magic for applied power (not necessarily *do* it, but at least
think it over carefully). Tricked-out cybereyes so you can *see* what
you're casting at even when visibility sucks, maybe cybernetic weapon-
focusses for close combat, and reflex enhancement so you can work
faster: even if you can't *win*, being fast gives you more chances to
get out of Dodge alive, and if you get out alive you can hunt down the
winners later.

Some magicians will want to keep their power pure and untouched. Others
will make tradeoffs. It's more interesting when both options are
sensible and have their advantages and drawbacks.



--
Paul J. Adam

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