Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Damian Sharp zadoc@***.neu.edu
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 16:29:49 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 31 May 2000, Hahns Shin wrote:

Diverging from the topic of the amount of cyberware needed to be a good
decker, and the viability of being a mage (a difficult topic, that I
personally think varies wildly from game to game)...

> I'm not saying it can't be done... but realistically, if you were
> roleplaying, a mage with cyberware would constantly be tempted along the
> path of Burnout. Once he taints his body, forever will it haunt him/her. My
> gaming group detests power gaming, and one would have to come up with a VERY
> good reason (at least, character history-wise) for having cyber and magic. I
> see mages having a datajack, especially if they are affiliated w/ academia,
> but the Smartlink and Boosted Ref. are much harder to justify for me...
> Ex-military, perhaps? Late bloomer? Maybe the character was a merc, but
> later found he had the Gift.

You know, everyone always says that. 'Once you've gotten a little
cyberware, the temptation is always there for more.' Why? Why is it more
tempting once you've gotten a little. That's like saying 'Once you've
bought a car, you always want a new one.' I have a car, and I don't want a
new one. I'm not attached to it, but it's a car. I only need one car. I
won't go buy another one, just because I have one now. Why would a mage
get more cyberware, just because they've gotten a little.

> My main argument is that when one has a talent, it isn't often that the
> person would squander that talent, especially if it is keeping him/her
> alive. Being a mage is rare... even more rare than being a 4.0 student or a
> gifted musician. Sure, the character might like computers or cars, but
> enough to piss away his/her rare natural talent? Perhaps... I don't know.

Squander away the talent? No. Should a mage get Standard Wired 3? Not if
they have any intention of remaining a mage. Is a mage crazy for getting a
Smartlink? Not if he shoots a gun tthat much. Will that alone make him
want to get Dermal Plating? No. Whatever might make him want to get it
will do so, regardless of the fact that he has a smartlink. Is a mage
crazy to get a Trauma Dampener? I'd almost say he's crazy _not_ to get
one, as it's written. Deos that mean he should load up on bioware, 'cause
he's gotten a little? Not if he's sane. Getting random cyber/bioware for
no real reason is silly. Getting one piece of cyberware doesn't have to
tempt the mage to get more. The temptation isn't realistically more, just
because he's gotten a little. Hoestly, I'd think it'd be _less_ tempting
to get more cyberware after he's gotten a little. He's already given up a
small part of his gift, for what he felt was a needed advantage. Does he
really want to give up more, or does he want to look for magical
alternatives.

All told, SR3 encourages a mage to get a little cyberware. High Magic
ratings accomplish very little, except making it easy to lose Magic
Rating, so, after Initiating once or twice, or if you plan on doing it
sometime, losing a point to implants doesn't sound too bad, as opposed to
just losing a point, for nothing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Damian Sharp of Real Life, College Student |
| Zauviir Seldszar of Wildlands, Scribe of House Maritym |
| Xavier Kindric of Shandlin's Ferry, member of Valindar |
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It's a trick, get an axe"
Message no. 2
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 17:41:39 -0400
Damain said:
> All told, SR3 encourages a mage to get a little cyberware. High Magic
> ratings accomplish very little, except making it easy to lose Magic
> Rating, so, after Initiating once or twice, or if you plan on doing it
> sometime, losing a point to implants doesn't sound too bad, as opposed to
> just losing a point, for nothing.

I tend to implement a house rule there for munchkin prevention. To me some
people tend to take the path numbers and say that they are happy as a magic
6 rating mage and begin to toss in cyberware by the point. I play it that
when a mage starts to get too much cyberware (more than a point or 2) they
start running the risk of losing magic whether they get more modifications
or not (auto-burnout). Otherwise you wind up with a Street Samurai/Mage that
can sling lead and fireballs with equal efficiency and then still go 3 - 4
times a turn. If you don't automatically see the problem with this then I
can't explain it to you.

The other reason I do this is that I just can't conceive that a person who
can work with the raw power of the universe would do anything to hinder it
above a minor level. In game terms it's easy to calculate, but if it were
really the case then it would be far more difficult a guess to see what
would happen when anything was installed. Essence is primarily a game
mechanic that would not exist as readily if this was for real.

If you like high powered characters then do what suits you, but I've met too
many munchkins in my time that are far more trouble than they are worth.
Plus if you show the character sheet to most people who don't know you
personally they think you are full of shit anyway (whether the character is
legit or not).

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 3
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 08:25:35 +1000
At 17:41 2000-05-31 -0400, Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:
>
>I tend to implement a house rule there for munchkin prevention. To me some
>people tend to take the path numbers and say that they are happy as a magic
>6 rating mage and begin to toss in cyberware by the point. I play it that
>when a mage starts to get too much cyberware (more than a point or 2) they
>start running the risk of losing magic whether they get more modifications
>or not (auto-burnout).

<snip>

>The other reason I do this is that I just can't conceive that a person who
>can work with the raw power of the universe would do anything to hinder it
>above a minor level.

ARGH! Pet hate time - you do realise here that what you're doing is
basically dictating how a player character's attitudes should be?

I can understand and sympathise with your -other- motives for limiting
magic/cyber combinations - although it's never been a problem in our game,
since you always have to sacrifice something for the gain you get, and we
find that it balances out. But if yo've been having an over-power problem
due to magic/cyber combo characters, fair enough to limit them in this way
if it works for you.

But to automatically dictate that mages just "shouldn't want to get
cyberware" smacks to me of making decisions for players about their
characters' outlook and priorities, and that is something that IMO a GM
should never do. Ever.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 4
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 18:10:47 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 17:41:39 -0400 "Mike & Linda Frankl"
<mlfrankl@***.com> writes:
<SNIP>
> Otherwise you wind up with a Street
> Samurai/Mage that
> can sling lead and fireballs with equal efficiency and then still go
> 3 - 4
> times a turn. If you don't automatically see the problem with this
> then I
> can't explain it to you.

Ahem. Sustaining Foci/Quickened:
Force 6 Enhance Aim, Force X Increase Reflexes, Force 6 Armor.
End result? More problems than cyberware have caused ...

There are many ways to "break the game". Versatility is not automaticly
one of them. Overspecialization is death. Particularly for a
Shadowrunner. Versatility should be reward (or perhaps be its own
reward), not punished.

> The other reason I do this is that I just can't conceive that a
> person who
> can work with the raw power of the universe would do anything to
> hinder it
> above a minor level.

So everyone with the ability to "work with the raw power of the universe"
would automatically seek to develop that ability in lieu of everything
else? There won't be one soul who will say "you know, magic's cool and
all but I don't want to dedicate my life to it." Not one?

> In game terms it's easy to calculate, but if it
> were
> really the case then it would be far more difficult a guess to see
> what
> would happen when anything was installed. Essence is primarily a
> game
> mechanic that would not exist as readily if this was for real.

Not necessarily so. Essence, or more importantly Magic Rating /might/
exist, but it wouldn't be quanticized (sp?) into whole numbers.

> If you like high powered characters then do what suits you, but I've
> met too
> many munchkins in my time that are far more trouble than they are
> worth.
> Plus if you show the character sheet to most people who don't know
> you
> personally they think you are full of shit anyway (whether the
> character is
> legit or not).

My favorite character has her skills spread around. She's decent at many
things from shooting and pummeling to Conjuring and ...err... Sorcering.
:) Most of her skills are around the 3 to 4 range with a few 5's. She's a
magician's way adept and she's hardly overpowered. She is nearly the
universal backup character. She needs a few more skills and more spells
before she can really claim that title though. (Btw, I mean backup as in
spare, not as in the calvary.)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 5
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:12:29 -0400
The Lady spoke:
> But to automatically dictate that mages just "shouldn't want to get
> cyberware" smacks to me of making decisions for players about their
> characters' outlook and priorities, and that is something that IMO a GM
> should never do. Ever.

Yeah well in your universe I'm sure there are people who play their
characters based on motivation and role-playing concepts. However, in the
world I live in there are pathetic excuses for people trying to compensate
for poor real lives by building power characters that have no regard to
concept and are just one rule loop hole after another. So don't lecture me
about balancing characters a little bit to keep the game rolling (as these
people are always a disruptive element in the game). I hope you never have
the misfortune to run into one of these fraggers.

:)

Smilin' (kinda) Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 6
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:23:03 -0400
D. Ghost wrote:
> Ahem. Sustaining Foci/Quickened:
> Force 6 Enhance Aim, Force X Increase Reflexes, Force 6 Armor.
> End result? More problems than cyberware have caused ...

Not an easy thing to do in my game either.

> There are many ways to "break the game". Versatility is not automaticly
> one of them. Overspecialization is death. Particularly for a
> Shadowrunner. Versatility should be reward (or perhaps be its own
> reward), not punished.

This is my point. I am just trying to keep a balanced game running and
despite what some of the people say on this list there are some real jerks
out there. If you don't reign them in then they can wreck a good gaming
table.

> So everyone with the ability to "work with the raw power of the universe"
> would automatically seek to develop that ability in lieu of everything
> else? There won't be one soul who will say "you know, magic's cool and
> all but I don't want to dedicate my life to it." Not one?

I have yet to have a player come to me with these concepts based on game or
story occurrences. It's always a points thing. As I said to Lady Jestyr, I
hope that I get to live in that universe someday.

> Not necessarily so. Essence, or more importantly Magic Rating /might/
> exist, but it wouldn't be quanticized (sp?) into whole numbers.

Now you're just being contrary.

> My favorite character has her skills spread around. She's decent at many
> things from shooting and pummeling to Conjuring and ...err... Sorcering.
> :) Most of her skills are around the 3 to 4 range with a few 5's. She's a
> magician's way adept and she's hardly overpowered. She is nearly the
> universal backup character. She needs a few more skills and more spells
> before she can really claim that title though. (Btw, I mean backup as in
> spare, not as in the calvary.)

Good now we just need to clone you.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 7
From: Strago strago@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:31:55 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:

<SNIP>

> Ahem. Sustaining Foci/Quickened:
> Force 6 Enhance Aim, Force X Increase Reflexes, Force 6 Armor.
> End result? More problems than cyberware have caused ...
>
> There are many ways to "break the game". Versatility is not automaticly
> one of them. Overspecialization is death. Particularly for a
> Shadowrunner. Versatility should be reward (or perhaps be its own
> reward), not punished.
>

Yeah. Of course, in my game at home, it's sometimes a problem. I remember one
time we had a STARTING physad with a Katana skill of something sick like 12.
Since his attributes were so high, he had a Combat Pool of 8. So he'd be
rolling 20 DICE when attacking!!! AND HE'D DIKOTED HIS KATANA!!! So what did
the GM do? Kept everything at a distance. The poor guy who was bragging about
that before the game was relegated to cutting things such as an air duct or a
metal door.
So I learned from that. This was back in SR2 days, when skills were so low. I
made a guy with Skills Priority A, and with 3s and 4s in all of them, so I
had 12 or 13 skills (I don't remember). But most of the players didn't like
that too much, they kinda teased me because the skills were so low. I showed
them though, after 40 Karma, I could do all sorts of things well, and in the
shadows, my character would probably be called for many different jobs, maybe
he'd qualify for 6 or 7 jobs when 10 available, while their characters would
have one job in 10.


> <SNIP>
> My favorite character has her skills spread around. She's decent at many
> things from shooting and pummeling to Conjuring and ...err... Sorcering.
> :) Most of her skills are around the 3 to 4 range with a few 5's. She's a
> magician's way adept and she's hardly overpowered. She is nearly the
> universal backup character. She needs a few more skills and more spells
> before she can really claim that title though. (Btw, I mean backup as in
> spare, not as in the calvary.)
>

Most of my characters have become this way. It's more fun and it's easier to
do the runs when your character can do many things.

>
> --
> D. Ghost
> Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
> - Troutman's 6th programming postulate.
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
> Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
> Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

SRGC v0.2 !SR1 SR2+ SR3++ h b++ B- UB- IE+ RN+ SRFF W+ sa++ ma++ ad+ m+ (o++
d+) gm+ M P
Message no. 8
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 21:14:27 -0500
--------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Mike & Linda Frankl" <mlfrankl@***.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:12:29 -0400
Subject: RE: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage


>The Lady spoke:
> But to automatically dictate that mages just "shouldn't want to get
> cyberware" smacks to me of making decisions for players about their
> characters' outlook and priorities, and that is something that IMO a GM
> should never do. Ever.

>Yeah well in your universe I'm sure there are people who play their
>characters based on motivation and role-playing concepts. However, in
the
>world I live in there are pathetic excuses for people trying to
compensate
>for poor real lives by building power characters that have no regard to
>concept and are just one rule loop hole after another. So don't lecture
me
>about balancing characters a little bit to keep the game rolling (as
these
>?people are always a disruptive element in the game). I hope you never
have
>the misfortune to run into one of these fraggers.

>:)

>Smilin' (kinda) Jack

Sounds like you got issues, Jack. Maybe you should get some new
(role)players,
or maybe learn the "you have it-They have it too!" creedo, and stop
whining about it.
There ain't much reason to snap at the Lady, regardless. Try Decaf.
Lighten the frag up. Besides, if the PC's have the decisions made for
them by a house rule,
then they'll never learn to make decisions for themselves. The Cowboy may
hate all people with
equal fervor, but he does give the pathetic excuses for people a chance
to strut their stuff to the best of their
ability. Just enough rope to hang themselves or climb out of the shit
their in. Their choice.

Try it. You might get lucky.

(They call me)COWBOY
CJ
Arkades@****.com


________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 9
From: Josh Harrison mataxes@****.net
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:46:00 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: Strago <strago@***.com>
> Yeah. Of course, in my game at home, it's sometimes a problem. I remember
one
> time we had a STARTING physad with a Katana skill of something sick like
12.
> Since his attributes were so high, he had a Combat Pool of 8. So he'd be
> rolling 20 DICE when attacking!!! AND HE'D DIKOTED HIS KATANA!!! So what
did
> the GM do? Kept everything at a distance. The poor guy who was bragging
about
> that before the game was relegated to cutting things such as an air duct
or a
> metal door.

Dear god.... Even under SR2, there was a 6 point starting limit to skills,
right? Even with Specialization in Katana he'd have a Skill Rating 8 with
that... where the hell does he get a 12?

But I have to admire the GM's ability to keep this whirling cyclone of death
in check. It's like the bit in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indy shoots the
tough looking swordsman... (sinister grin and wicked laugh)

-- Josh
Message no. 10
From: Lady Jestyr jestyr@*********.html.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 01 Jun 2000 13:49:19 +1000
At 22:12 2000-05-31 -0400, Mike & Linda Frankl wrote:
>
>Yeah well in your universe I'm sure there are people who play their
>characters based on motivation and role-playing concepts. However, in the
>world I live in there are pathetic excuses for people trying to compensate
>for poor real lives by building power characters that have no regard to
>concept and are just one rule loop hole after another. So don't lecture me
>about balancing characters a little bit to keep the game rolling (as these
>people are always a disruptive element in the game). I hope you never have
>the misfortune to run into one of these fraggers.

I wasn't lecturing you about balancing the game - I already said that I
could quite understand and agree with your motivations on one hand. What I
had the problem with was your blanket statement that ascribed uniform
motivations to a very broad and diverse group of people. That was my
quibble with your message, not the balancing motive nor the actual
mechanics for the fix.

Lady Jestyr
~ Hell hath no fury like a geek with a whippersnipper ~

* jestyr@*****.com | URL: http://www.geocities.com/~jestyr *
Message no. 11
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:42:33 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 22:46:00 -0400 "Josh Harrison" <mataxes@****.net>
writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Strago <strago@***.com>
> > Yeah. Of course, in my game at home, it's sometimes a problem. I
> > remember one
> > time we had a STARTING physad with a Katana skill of something
> > sick like 12.
<SNIP>

> Dear god.... Even under SR2, there was a 6 point starting limit to
> skills,
> right? Even with Specialization in Katana he'd have a Skill Rating 8
> with
> that... where the hell does he get a 12?
<SNIP>

Improved Ability (Armed Combat). With specialization that's 8 plus up to
6 plus up to 8 dice of combat pool for a spiffy total of 22 dice. :)

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 12
From: Alfredo B Alves dghost@****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Wed, 31 May 2000 22:52:44 -0500
On Wed, 31 May 2000 22:23:03 -0400 "Mike & Linda Frankl"
<mlfrankl@***.com> writes:
> D. Ghost wrote:
<SNIP>
> > There are many ways to "break the game". Versatility is not
> > automaticly
> > one of them. Overspecialization is death. Particularly for a
> > Shadowrunner. Versatility should be reward (or perhaps be its own
> > reward), not punished.

> This is my point. I am just trying to keep a balanced game running
> and
> despite what some of the people say on this list there are some real
> jerks
> out there. If you don't reign them in then they can wreck a good
> gaming
> table.

So you want to reign in the good with the bad? I'm not saying let them
run amuck. I'm saying find another way to "reign them in".

<SNIP>
> > There won't be one soul who will say "you know, magic's cool
> > and
> > all but I don't want to dedicate my life to it." Not one?

> I have yet to have a player come to me with these concepts based on
> game or
> story occurrences. It's always a points thing. As I said to Lady
> Jestyr, I
> hope that I get to live in that universe someday.

Have you given them a chance? With your houserule in place, it can
discourage your players from doing so. Mages may get some cool abilities
but they already get it pretty bad as well ... Magic Loss on every deadly
wound; Magic loss from cyberware and bioware ("The Sam has a .01 Essence?
That can't be healthy ..." "Yeah he get -1 to his signature" "That's
it?"
"Uh ... yeah ..."); Don't forget the "geek the mage first" tactic.
Mages
have it good and they have it bad too ...

> > Not necessarily so. Essence, or more importantly Magic Rating
> > /might/
> > exist, but it wouldn't be quanticized (sp?) into whole numbers.

> Now you're just being contrary.
<SNIP>

No, I'm not. :P~

--
D. Ghost
Profanity is the one language all programmers know best
- Troutman's 6th programming postulate.

________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 13
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:51:00 +0200
According to Mike & Linda Frankl, at 17:41 on 31 May 00, the word on the
street was...

> I tend to implement a house rule there for munchkin prevention. To me some
> people tend to take the path numbers and say that they are happy as a magic
> 6 rating mage and begin to toss in cyberware by the point. I play it that
> when a mage starts to get too much cyberware (more than a point or 2) they
> start running the risk of losing magic whether they get more modifications
> or not (auto-burnout). Otherwise you wind up with a Street Samurai/Mage that
> can sling lead and fireballs with equal efficiency and then still go 3 - 4
> times a turn. If you don't automatically see the problem with this then I
> can't explain it to you.

So? This character would become a prime target for any opponents the group
are going to go up against. The street sam/mage will be able to get rid of
incidental opponents (with that I mean people who come looking for a fight
and make the mistake of picking him) really quickly, but longer-term
enemies, who have the ability to observe and plan, will not have so much
of a problem with that. And these latter enemies are the ones who will
take out this kind of character first of all, because it's the biggest
threat in the group.

A good quote here is the Warning To Power Gamers from the Over The Edge
rulebook, page 13: "Just let me warn you that the more powerful you are,
the deeper you get into trouble before you realize you are in serious
danger. Consistently, the most powerful characters tend to be the shortest
lived."

> The other reason I do this is that I just can't conceive that a person who
> can work with the raw power of the universe would do anything to hinder it
> above a minor level.

YOU can't conceive of that -- I'm fairly sure that there would be plenty
of mages in SR who disagree with that. IRL, I can't conceive of why people
see the need to hate others who happen to be of a different religion or
ethnical group, but it happens all the time. (<GridSec>My use of that
example is not a reason for anyone to start a thread that will get out of
hand, BTW.</GridSec>)

> If you like high powered characters then do what suits you, but I've met too
> many munchkins in my time that are far more trouble than they are worth.

There's a big difference between a character who is both a magician and
has cyberware, and a munchkin. Many people lump them all together, but IMO
they're making a big mistake doing that.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 14
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 10:51:00 +0200
According to Josh Harrison, at 22:46 on 31 May 00, the word on the street
was...

> Dear god.... Even under SR2, there was a 6 point starting limit to skills,
> right? Even with Specialization in Katana he'd have a Skill Rating 8 with
> that... where the hell does he get a 12?

This was a physad, right? Adding 6 points Improved Ability to the basic
skill of 6 (specializtion works against you here -- or, at least, won't
increase your total number of dice over 12). If he was really out for
rolling lots of dice, a Force 6 weapon focus would have added another 6,
for a total of 18 dice, plus 8 Combat Pool. (Or 6, depending on your
interpretation of the rules.)

> But I have to admire the GM's ability to keep this whirling cyclone of death
> in check. It's like the bit in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indy shoots the
> tough looking swordsman... (sinister grin and wicked laugh)

This is precisely the point I like to make to players who make characters
focused entirely on hand-to-hand combat. It doesn't matter how good your
martial arts skills are when your opponent is some way away and is
pointing a firearm at you.

So what does one player do? Make a physad with Killing Hands S, Improved
Ability for Unarmed Combat (level 2), and Distance Strike. Oh, and adds a
rangefinder into his cybereye... I have to be very careful not to blurt
out a distance without thinking about it when he asks me "How far away are
these opponents?" ;)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Here come the golden oldies. Here come the Hezbollah.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ UL P L+ E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 15
From: Dave Mowbray dave_mowbray@*****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 11:28:04 -0400
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Strago <strago@***.com>
> > Yeah. Of course, in my game at home, it's sometimes a
> problem. I remember
> one
> > time we had a STARTING physad with a Katana skill of
> something sick like
> 12.
> > Since his attributes were so high, he had a Combat Pool of
> 8. So he'd be
> > rolling 20 DICE when attacking!!! AND HE'D DIKOTED HIS
> KATANA!!! So what
> did
> > the GM do? Kept everything at a distance. The poor guy who
> was bragging
> about
> > that before the game was relegated to cutting things such
> as an air duct
> or a
> > metal door.
>
> Dear god.... Even under SR2, there was a 6 point starting
> limit to skills,
> right? Even with Specialization in Katana he'd have a Skill
> Rating 8 with
> that... where the hell does he get a 12?
>
> But I have to admire the GM's ability to keep this whirling
> cyclone of death
> in check. It's like the bit in Raiders of the Lost Ark when
> Indy shoots the
> tough looking swordsman... (sinister grin and wicked laugh)
>
> -- Josh


Thanks! :) Although I think Strago is exaggerating... I think I let him dice
one guy...
-Dave
Message no. 16
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:08:21 -0400
The Lady spoke:
> I wasn't lecturing you about balancing the game - I already said that I
> could quite understand and agree with your motivations on one hand. What I
> had the problem with was your blanket statement that ascribed uniform
> motivations to a very broad and diverse group of people. That was my
> quibble with your message, not the balancing motive nor the actual
> mechanics for the fix.

<Deep sweeping bow of respect>

My error.

:)

Smilin' Jack
Message no. 17
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:08:23 -0400
D. Ghost
> So you want to reign in the good with the bad? I'm not saying let them
> run amuck. I'm saying find another way to "reign them in".

I find that I have yet to hinder the good. Most of my current players side
with me on my decisions as they too are tired of the power gaming munchkins
hovering around. We tend to be a RPG recovery group.

> Have you given them a chance? With your houserule in place, it can
> discourage your players from doing so. Mages may get some cool abilities
> but they already get it pretty bad as well ... Magic Loss on every deadly
> wound; Magic loss from cyberware and bioware ("The Sam has a .01 Essence?
> That can't be healthy ..." "Yeah he get -1 to his signature"
"That's it?"
> "Uh ... yeah ..."); Don't forget the "geek the mage first"
tactic. Mages
> have it good and they have it bad too ...

Actually my players rarely bump into my house rules. Most of us think a lot
alike on the rules (some even helped me form them).

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 18
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:08:25 -0400
Gurth replied:
> So? This character would become a prime target for any opponents
> the group
> are going to go up against. The street sam/mage will be able to
> get rid of
> incidental opponents (with that I mean people who come looking
> for a fight
> and make the mistake of picking him) really quickly, but longer-term
> enemies, who have the ability to observe and plan, will not have so much
> of a problem with that. And these latter enemies are the ones who will
> take out this kind of character first of all, because it's the biggest
> threat in the group.
>
> A good quote here is the Warning To Power Gamers from the Over The Edge
> rulebook, page 13: "Just let me warn you that the more powerful you are,
> the deeper you get into trouble before you realize you are in serious
> danger. Consistently, the most powerful characters tend to be the
> shortest
> lived."

As I said in a previous e-mail, I'm just not interested in taking the time
to "teach a lesson" to people who do not have the capacity to grasp why
there is a problem with munchkiny/power game type characters. If it was a
new player, sure, but a guy who has been doing the same thing for the last
10 years isn't going to get it (even if you hit him with a wet carp).

> YOU can't conceive of that -- I'm fairly sure that there would be plenty
> of mages in SR who disagree with that. IRL, I can't conceive of
> why people
> see the need to hate others who happen to be of a different religion or
> ethnical group, but it happens all the time. (<GridSec>My use of that
> example is not a reason for anyone to start a thread that will get out of
> hand, BTW.</GridSec>)

Hey if I take the time to run a regular campaign for years I think I deserve
an opinion. As I said, my players rarely bump into my house rules as they
are like minded (and assisted in creating them). I've had enough grief from
people that want to wreck gaming tables over the years. I'm just not going
to put up with it anymore. If a player does not like my game they can
exercise the right to leave. I've yet to drag anyone to my table (my biggest
problem is keeping the group under 6 players).

> There's a big difference between a character who is both a magician and
> has cyberware, and a munchkin. Many people lump them all
> together, but IMO
> they're making a big mistake doing that.

I mentioned a wee bit more power in the front of that e-mail, not just
knick-knack cyberware, but big stuff. I was not conveying what you say
above. I may sound a bit rough on this issue, but I really do not mean to
offend any of you. I'm actually hoping the flames might burn some of the
poison ivy off of me.

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 19
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 18:08:20 -0400
CJ said:
> Sounds like you got issues, Jack. Maybe you should get some new
> (role)players,
> or maybe learn the "you have it-They have it too!" creedo, and stop
> whining about it.
> There ain't much reason to snap at the Lady, regardless. Try Decaf.
> Lighten the frag up. Besides, if the PC's have the decisions made for
> them by a house rule,
> then they'll never learn to make decisions for themselves. The Cowboy may
> hate all people with
> equal fervor, but he does give the pathetic excuses for people a chance
> to strut their stuff to the best of their
> ability. Just enough rope to hang themselves or climb out of the shit
> their in. Their choice.

Try resolved issues. To me this is a closed matter, I GM the way I do and it
works (at least for me). I didn't intend to snap at the Lady, but if you
read the tone of hers it was a might condescending. Either way I mean no
foul.

As far as considering a house rule that makes a decision for players, I'm
not alone and if I had to guess I think I would be in the majority. Most
GM's have house rules set up to one degree or another. Mine is less than a
page and is mostly items design to assist people in getting along and
prevent power gaming and munchkins. And as far as letting people figure
things out, have you ever heard the old adage "some people never learn"? It
was around before I was born and probably you too. If you wish to tolerate
these people and teach them "the hard way" then so be it. For me I wish to
spend my fleeting time on this planet with people who want to play the game
and not argue about why they can't manipulate rules and make unbalanced
characters.

I also do not drink coffee and am probably one of the more even tempered
people you might meet someday. :P

;)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 20
From: C J Tipton arkades@****.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2000 17:16:38 -0500
>I also do not drink coffee and am probably one of the more even tempered
>people you might meet someday. :P

>;)

>Smilin' Jack

NO COFFEE! Heathen!

:-)

But seriously, if that's the way you run your game and your players don't
sweat it, there isn't any particular reason why
you should feel at all responsible for a power gaming mook. I wasn't
knockin' house rules, just sayin' that one seemed
like it wouldn't work at my table, and sort of tryin' to ride to a ladys
defense. No offense meant :-)


(This is where the)COWBOY(rides away...)
CJ
Arkades@****.com




________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
Message no. 21
From: dbuehrer@******.carl.org dbuehrer@******.carl.org
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Fri, 02 Jun 2000 10:43:50 -0600
Gurth wrote:
>According to Mike & Linda Frankl, at 17:41 on 31 May 00, the word on the
>street was...
>
> > I tend to implement a house rule there for munchkin prevention. To me some
> > people tend to take the path numbers and say that they are happy as a magic
> > 6 rating mage and begin to toss in cyberware by the point. I play it that
> > when a mage starts to get too much cyberware (more than a point or 2) they
> > start running the risk of losing magic whether they get more modifications
> > or not (auto-burnout). Otherwise you wind up with a Street Samurai/Mage
> that
> > can sling lead and fireballs with equal efficiency and then still go 3 - 4
> > times a turn. If you don't automatically see the problem with this then I
> > can't explain it to you.
>
>So? This character would become a prime target for any opponents the group
>are going to go up against. The street sam/mage will be able to get rid of
>incidental opponents (with that I mean people who come looking for a fight
>and make the mistake of picking him) really quickly, but longer-term
>enemies, who have the ability to observe and plan, will not have so much
>of a problem with that. And these latter enemies are the ones who will
>take out this kind of character first of all, because it's the biggest
>threat in the group.
>
>A good quote here is the Warning To Power Gamers from the Over The Edge
>rulebook, page 13: "Just let me warn you that the more powerful you are,
>the deeper you get into trouble before you realize you are in serious
>danger. Consistently, the most powerful characters tend to be the shortest
>lived."

Reminds me of something my father told me concerning 4-wheel driving. A
4-wheel drive vehicle allows you to get more stuck than with a 2-wheel
drive vehicle.

There are a number of responses one can take with a powergamer.

Just say No. As Mike has done, take steps to limit the powergamer. I
personally would tell the powergamer that I do not want to run a powergame
and that I expect him to make his character accordingly. The problem with
making house rules is that the powergamer often sees the house rule as a
challenge to overcome, and it becomes a you vs them game. I prefer to make
my expectations known right up front.

Let them make their powercharacter and then let them get into trouble as
only they can. This would equate letting them drive a 4-wheel drive
through rough terrain and wait for them to drive off of a cliff, or get
stuck in the mud. The GM is always more powerful than the powergamer
because the GM never runs out of bad guys or ammo.

Let them make their powercharacter and then run a roleplaying game in which
their powertoys/skills/stats have little meaning. This would be like
putting a 4-wheel drive on the interstate and then closing off all the exit
ramps.

To Life,
-Graht
http://www.users.uswest.net/~abaker3
--
"What you are doing at the moment must be exactly what
you are doing at the moment--and nothing else."
Message no. 22
From: Mike & Linda Frankl mlfrankl@***.com
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Fri, 2 Jun 2000 22:34:39 -0400
CJ:
> But seriously, if that's the way you run your game and your players don't
> sweat it, there isn't any particular reason why
> you should feel at all responsible for a power gaming mook. I wasn't
> knockin' house rules, just sayin' that one seemed
> like it wouldn't work at my table, and sort of tryin' to ride to a ladys
> defense. No offense meant :-)

None taken, it's always good to have a second opinion.

:)

Smilin' Jack
Franklin Isshinryu School of Karate
http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/mlfrankl/fiskhome.htm
Message no. 23
From: Yiannakos yiannako@*******.edu
Subject: Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2000 15:52:51 -0400
Alfredo B Alves wrote:

> So everyone with the ability to "work with the raw power of the universe"
> would automatically seek to develop that ability in lieu of everything
> else? There won't be one soul who will say "you know, magic's cool and
> all but I don't want to dedicate my life to it." Not one?

(Agreeing) Especially since a person doesn't necessarily choose magic,
it often chooses them. ("I love driving and the feel of the open road
under my wheels, but all of a sudden there's this spirit animal talking
to me...")

---Dave ('s not here man)

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Burnout or Realism? was Re: Decker Mage, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.