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Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Fri May 4 16:00:01 2001
I was thinking about ammo in Shadowrun and I had a few thoughts, which
the gun experts can take apart.
First of all, I had a hard time figuring out the calibers. Light
Pistols probably use .38 rounds, and Heavy Pistols probably use 9mm
rounds, but what about Hold Outs? .22 rounds, maybe? Can anyone guess?
Or are Hold Outs .38 caliber and Light Pistols 9mm (or .44) with Heavy
Pistols using a larger caliber which hasn't been invented yet? How
about .45?
Secondly, I thought SMGs were merely machine guns which use pistol
rounds. Is this correct? Are these .38 caliber or .44? Because if this
is correct, then I would think the damage (before the burst increase)
would be the same as the corresponding pistol round. I just looked,
and the Damage Level is one greater than the Light Pistol.
Finally, could you take, say, a hold out and convert it to hold a
single Heavy Pistol round? The way I've always conceived of a Hold Out
Pistol is one which is very small and which is used in close range
which you shoot someone in the face. One bullet is all you need, in
this situation, but at 4L it doesn't work too well.

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

Down with the Moral Majority
-Green Day
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bob Ooton)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Fri May 4 17:00:03 2001
There is a lot of similarity between .38 caliber rounds and 9mm (.380...
heh) rounds. They would probably both fall into the light pistol range.
I know that a few sites online (Raygun's for one) have conversions
listed, as well. Since the Beretta 200ST is very comparable to the
Beretta 93R - and I expect the similarity was intentional - I feel
confident in making 9mm a light pistol round.

I'd view heavy pistol rounds as .41, .44, .45, .50, and other heavy
rounds such as 10mm and .357 magnum. Some people view 9mm as a heavy
round and with certain loads it can be comparable to standard larger
rounds, but it's really not that powerful overall.

Holdout pistols would likely be the .22, .25, and other very light
rounds, but they could also be using light pistol ammo and losing
penetration power by going with the small barrel.

If you're interested in finding out more about holdout, light, and heavy
pistols and their appropriate rounds, drop into a gun store sometime and
ask to see comparisons. Most sellers love to talk about their weapons
as much as they want to sell them, so you can get some good, helpful
information from them.

Personally, I've converted all pistols to M damage code (Holdouts at
4M/5M, Light and Machine Pistols at 6M, and Heavies at 7M - 8M for the
Super Warhawk) to give the lighter weapons some added viability and
bring the damage inline with the SMGs that fire the same types of
rounds. It makes pistols less dangerous overall, but that's okay by me.
The SR world's armor standard should protect well against pistol fire.

| Bob Ooton <rbooton@*****.edu>
| aka TopCat, the cyberware advocate
| Member of the Black Hand Demo Team
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Fri May 4 17:05:01 2001
In article <3AF30A9B.9C949A16@***.com>, Strago <strago@***.com> writes
>First of all, I had a hard time figuring out the calibers. Light
>Pistols probably use .38 rounds, and Heavy Pistols probably use 9mm
>rounds, but what about Hold Outs? .22 rounds, maybe? Can anyone guess?

It doesn't work.

There are holdout pistols that fire .44 Magnum (American Derringer, for
instance) but they all only do 4L damage. Go figure. And then you're
into the arguments about how "heavy" is a "heavy" pistol (for
instance,
some claim 9mm is "light pistol" calibre, others say it's "heavy", and
the arguments rage on.

>about .45?
>Secondly, I thought SMGs were merely machine guns which use pistol
>rounds. Is this correct? Are these .38 caliber or .44? Because if this
>is correct, then I would think the damage (before the burst increase)
>would be the same as the corresponding pistol round. I just looked,
>and the Damage Level is one greater than the Light Pistol.

SMGs by definition use pistol ammunition. Shadowrun confuses the issue
by including cut-down assault rifles (eg the AK-97 SMG) in the same
category, even though the AK would fire a much more powerful round than
any pistol.

>Finally, could you take, say, a hold out and convert it to hold a
>single Heavy Pistol round?

In real life yes, in Shadowrun apparently not. But no reason why you
couldn't house-rule a solution.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Sat May 5 06:25:01 2001
According to Strago, on Fri, 04 May 2001 the word on the street was...

> First of all, I had a hard time figuring out the calibers. Light
> Pistols probably use .38 rounds, and Heavy Pistols probably use 9mm
> rounds, but what about Hold Outs? .22 rounds, maybe? Can anyone guess?
> Or are Hold Outs .38 caliber and Light Pistols 9mm (or .44) with Heavy
> Pistols using a larger caliber which hasn't been invented yet? How
> about .45?

Best advice here: don't even think about it :)

The whole thing is such a mess that matching calibers to SR damage codes is
inevitably going to result in something clashing with something else. For
example, if you put light pistols at 9 mm, then why does an SMG firing the
same round cause more damage?

> Secondly, I thought SMGs were merely machine guns which use pistol
> rounds. Is this correct? Are these .38 caliber or .44?

IRL, an SMG is a full-automatic weapon whose size and weight sit between
those of a pistol and a rifle (a true machine gun is typically larger than a
rifle, and twice as heavy). They usually fire pistol ammunition -- that's to
say, in about 9 cases out of 10 it'll be 9 mm Parabellum.

> Because if this is correct, then I would think the damage (before the
> burst increase) would be the same as the corresponding pistol round. I
> just looked, and the Damage Level is one greater than the Light Pistol.

Precisely the kind of clash I was talking about above.

> Finally, could you take, say, a hold out and convert it to hold a
> single Heavy Pistol round? The way I've always conceived of a Hold Out
> Pistol is one which is very small and which is used in close range
> which you shoot someone in the face. One bullet is all you need, in
> this situation, but at 4L it doesn't work too well.

You could drill out the chamber and barrel to accept a larger-caliber
round, but going from hold-out ammo (which is obviously very light) to
heavy pistol ammo (rather heavy) would be a very bad idea. I hav this
feeling the weapon is going to come apart in your hands after a few shots.
That's decidedly not safe :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Strago)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Sat May 5 12:25:00 2001
Gurth wrote:

> <SNIP>
> Best advice here: don't even think about it :)

Unfortunately, the idea popped into my head and now it won't come out :^P.

> <SNIP>
> > Finally, could you take, say, a hold out and convert it to hold a
> > single Heavy Pistol round? The way I've always conceived of a Hold Out
> > Pistol is one which is very small and which is used in close range
> > which you shoot someone in the face. One bullet is all you need, in
> > this situation, but at 4L it doesn't work too well.
>
> You could drill out the chamber and barrel to accept a larger-caliber
> round, but going from hold-out ammo (which is obviously very light) to
> heavy pistol ammo (rather heavy) would be a very bad idea. I hav this
> feeling the weapon is going to come apart in your hands after a few shots.
> That's decidedly not safe :)
>

Like I said, I see the holt-out as a tiny weapon which is used once, maybe
twice, in the entire time you own it for emergencies where a big gun wouldn't
work. Have you seen the old tv show "Maverick"? He's got this little thing which
holds one bullet in the barrel, is probably 10 cm long and 4 cm wide. I think
the safety is the trigger (you pull it back and let it go and it fires).
Something like this is what I'm talking about.

>
> --
> Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> If there are vegetarian hamburgers, why isn't there beef lettuce?
> -> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
> -> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-
>
> GC3.12: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+@ UL P L++ E W-(++) N o? K w+(--) O V?
> PS+ PE(-)(+) Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++(-)>$ tv+ b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
> Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998

--
--Strago

All Hail Apathy! Or don't. Whatever. -abortion_engine

Down with the Moral Majority
-Green Day
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Calibers and gun types
Date: Sun May 6 10:50:00 2001
In article <3AF42A89.3B6C0B1@***.com>, Strago <strago@***.com> writes
>Like I said, I see the holt-out as a tiny weapon which is used once, maybe
>twice, in the entire time you own it for emergencies where a big gun wouldn't
>work.

Go to

http://www.amderringer.com

for a huge range of hold-out pistols in various calibres.

--
Paul J. Adam

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