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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 11:40:00 2002

Message no. 1 I was just reading through the called shot rules and I found myself
asking the question, what's the point?

For +4 TN, you can stage the damage up 1 Level, max D.
Whoopdeedoo...For the same target number, I'm willing to shoot at the
regular target number and wage that I'll get more than 2 successes,
which will also make it harder for the target to dodge.

For example, a smartlinked sam aims for a simple action, calls shot and
fires a simple action. Range is short, no other modifiers, so the TN is
5. If you have 6 dice, on the average we're looking at 2 successes.

If the target has a quickness of 6, it is probable the target will dodge
with 3 successes.

However if you don't bother calling shot, you needn't even bother
aiming, since the TN will still be 2, increasing the probability of
success to 5 successes on 6 dice. Now, with a quickness of 6 it's
unlikely that you'll dodge and have to resist 9M + 2 successes attack.

Bonus, you still have a simple action and can fire again with a TN of 3
if you have no recoil comp. 4 successes later, the target is resisting
a second attack and maybe wounded from the first one for a bit of
snowball effect.

How many other people have altered the called shots rule to make them
more effective?

Xian

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 12:10:01 2002

Message no. 2 > How many other people have altered the called shots rule to make them
> more effective?

I would say a lot....my group treats called shots as a common sense
basis...headshots with anything larger than a L damage code is an
instant kill, being shot anywhere else is a think about what you'd
really do with it type of thing. Besides, who does called shots when
they're not going for a specific effect anyway?

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damon)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 13:25:01 2002

Message no. 3 > How many other people have altered the called shots rule to make them
> more effective?

In my game, I simply keep the +4 and if the the area called (usually the
head) isn't armored, then I won't apply armor rules.

-Damon Harper
___________________________________
<nomad74@*********.net> <AIM Harper422>

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Christian Casavant)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 14:35:05 2002

Message no. 4 Derek,

> I would say a lot....my group treats called shots as a common sense
> basis...headshots with anything larger than a L damage code is an
> instant kill, being shot anywhere else is a think about what you'd
> really do with it type of thing. Besides, who does called shots when
> they're not going for a specific effect anyway?

Well, when the shadowrunners cease to view anything heavy pistol or
lower as a threat since with 7 points of ballistic armour, a 2M is a
joke and 2S just as poncy.

While obviating armour (as Damon suggested) was really the rule I was
already thinking of implementing, the increased target number still
makes dodging an incoming attack relatively easy. Since combat pool can
be applied to either dodging, or to supplement body in a damage
reduction roll, not to mention athletics increasing the dodge skill,
then it's really within the players interest to dodge a called-shot
attack rather than allow it to hit them.

Futher, there is (in my opinion) a fundamental problem with the way the
weapons are laid out. To cite one example, the Ares Predator III (a
heavy pistol), with a 9M damage code has a concealability of 4. The
HK227-S, damage code 10S with burst has a concealability of 5! It's not
even the compact version which has the SAME concealability!!! (Let's be
realistic a silenced SMG can NOT be smaller than a heavy pistol.)

(Aside, I think there's a mistake in the rules calculating the burst
damamge. A 9M weapon firing 3 round burst should IMHO do 11S since the
first bullet would be 9M, second 10M, third 11S, etc...)

Essentially my difficulty is reconciling the fact that weapons are so
underpowered in the game that LSSS resort to using the Ruger 12S super
burst bad boy.

I'ld finish my point, but my wife is calling me and I'm sure you can
figure out what I'm trying to say; it's time to go t'Pub!

Later,

Xian.

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Zebulin Magby)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 19:20:01 2002

Message no. 5 "Christian Casavant" <christian@********.org> wrote:
>
> > I would say a lot....my group treats called shots as a common sense
> > basis...headshots with anything larger than a L damage code is an
> > instant kill, being shot anywhere else is a think about what you'd
> > really do with it type of thing. Besides, who does called shots when
> > they're not going for a specific effect anyway?
>
>
> Well, when the shadowrunners cease to view anything heavy pistol or
> lower as a threat since with 7 points of ballistic armour, a 2M is a
> joke and 2S just as poncy.
>
> While obviating armour (as Damon suggested) was really the rule I was
> already thinking of implementing, the increased target number still
> makes dodging an incoming attack relatively easy. Since combat pool can
> be applied to either dodging, or to supplement body in a damage
> reduction roll, not to mention athletics increasing the dodge skill,
> then it's really within the players interest to dodge a called-shot
> attack rather than allow it to hit them.
>

I'm sorry, you tell your players a shot against them was a called-shot? How
are they to know? I never tell my players, so they can't just dodge those
and not care about the rest. (Also, realistically, a shot to the head will
kill most people most of the time, so a called shot to the head is great. At
least, the players like to use them, but hate when that logic is applied to
them. [: )

To sum up, why would you tell your players a shot was called? It's like
telling them that the ammo they're rolling against is EX-Explosive. There's
no need to know aside from the "Your target number is X, roll your body."
Yes, sometimes I tell them, especially if it's noticeable, Flechette fires
differently than Hollowpoints, but how is someone going to tell before they
dodge that the incoming round is hollowpoint or capsule?

Zebulin

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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Derek Hyde)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Sun Feb 3 19:25:02 2002

Message no. 6 > I'm sorry, you tell your players a shot against them was a
called-shot?
> How
> are they to know? I never tell my players, so they can't just dodge
those
> and not care about the rest. (Also, realistically, a shot to the head
will
> kill most people most of the time, so a called shot to the head is
great.
> At
> least, the players like to use them, but hate when that logic is
applied
> to
> them. [: )
>
> To sum up, why would you tell your players a shot was called? It's
like
> telling them that the ammo they're rolling against is EX-Explosive.
> There's
> no need to know aside from the "Your target number is X, roll your
body."
> Yes, sometimes I tell them, especially if it's noticeable, Flechette
fires
> differently than Hollowpoints, but how is someone going to tell before
> they
> dodge that the incoming round is hollowpoint or capsule?
>
> Zebulin

Sorry but the only way that they're going to know they're being shot at
(assuming of course the shooter's not right in front of them in plain
sight) is if they see the muzzle flash, or they're missed first. YOU
DON'T SEE THE ROUND THAT HITS YOU and you DEFINATLY don't hear it!

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Damion Milliken)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Mon Feb 4 04:10:01 2002

Message no. 7 Christian Casavant writes:

> I was just reading through the called shot rules and I found myself
> asking the question, what's the point?

In some ways, you're right. But I do think that you neglected a couple of
points.

> For +4 TN, you can stage the damage up 1 Level, max D.
> Whoopdeedoo...For the same target number, I'm willing to shoot at the
> regular target number and wage that I'll get more than 2 successes,
> which will also make it harder for the target to dodge.
>
> For example, a smartlinked sam aims for a simple action, calls shot and
> fires a simple action. Range is short, no other modifiers, so the TN is
> 5. If you have 6 dice, on the average we're looking at 2 successes.

Yes. This is, of course, assuming "no other modifiers". If everything is
fine and dandy, you're better off not taking a Called Shot. However, if
there was a +4 darkness modifier, then the normal shot in your example would
need a 6, and the Called Shot a 10. Not too much difference, here. The firer
will probably only get 1 or maybe 2 successes either way. The target has the
same chance (more or less) of dodging either attack. So the attack that does
the higher damage is quite possibly better.

You're also neglecting Aiming. It is possible for a firer to Aim for -1, and
to do so for a number of times up to half his weapon Skill. Sure, it costs a
Simple Action to Aim, but in many circumstances (such as sniping), this
isn't a concern. Once the TN for a regular shot gets to 2, there's no point
in Aiming any more. But if Aiming can reduce the TN for a Called Shot to
such low numbers, then the target is in very big trouble indeed.

Another factor to consider is that a Smartlink II only has a +2 modifier for
Calling a Shot. So in your example, the Called shot would have a TN of 3,
not 5. This is well and truely worth taking.

Lastly, I think that some of the problem with the Called Shot rules is the
lack of useful things that (by the rules) can be done with them. If you
expand the available options, then you make Called Shots more useful. Not
necessarily more damaging or dangerous, but significantly more versatile and
useful. For example, I've long used Marc Renouf's Called Shot rules, which
allow a Called Shot to:

a) Increase the Damage Level by 1 level (p 114 SR3).
b) Target a specific external system on a vehicle-sized target (p 114 SR3).
c) Avoid armour. This option incurs a +1 modifier per point of armour to be
ignored, rather than the standard +4 modifier.
d) Cause a Stun weapon (such as a club or unarmed blow) to do Physical
damage (p 83 FoF).
e) Achieve some other game effect.

The last option can be extremely useful, especially if you're not looking to
straight out kill your target. With it you could, for example, blind them,
take their weapon, kneecap them, or any of a huge range of potentially
circumstantially beneficial effects.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: dam01@***.edu.au
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e++>++++$ h- r++>+++ y->+++
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Mon Feb 4 05:50:03 2002

Message no. 8 According to Christian Casavant, on Sun, 03 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Well, when the shadowrunners cease to view anything heavy pistol or
> lower as a threat since with 7 points of ballistic armour, a 2M is a
> joke and 2S just as poncy.

Yep. You might want to try the damage rules I posted last week; using those, with
a bit of luck players will see _any_ weapon as a threat.

> Futher, there is (in my opinion) a fundamental problem with the way the
> weapons are laid out. To cite one example, the Ares Predator III (a
> heavy pistol), with a 9M damage code has a concealability of 4. The
> HK227-S, damage code 10S with burst has a concealability of 5! It's not
> even the compact version which has the SAME concealability!!! (Let's be
> realistic a silenced SMG can NOT be smaller than a heavy pistol.)

Concealability is not the same as size, IMHO, and if you keep that in mind as a
GM, you'll go a long way. The HK's higher Concealability can be explained in that
it's flatter, more streamlined, etc. than the Predator which makes it easier to
hide -- provided you have something you can hide it under. I wouldn't allow
anyone to hide an HK-227 under a T-shirt, for example, but I would let them stick
a Predator in their belt and put that same T-shirt over it to hide it.

> (Aside, I think there's a mistake in the rules calculating the burst
> damamge. A 9M weapon firing 3 round burst should IMHO do 11S since the
> first bullet would be 9M, second 10M, third 11S, etc...)

BTB, you add the number of bullets fired to the Power Level, so a 9M weapon
firing a three-round burst should do 12S. You can think up all sorts of
explanations for why this is right or wrong, but what it comes down to, I think,
is ease of use: it's quicker and simpler to use and to explain that you have to
add the number of bullets, than that you have to add the number of bullets and
then subtract 1.

> Essentially my difficulty is reconciling the fact that weapons are so
> underpowered in the game that LSSS resort to using the Ruger 12S super
> burst bad boy.

See my comment about those damage rules above :)

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
That's the way that I can't win.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
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From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Maxfield)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Mon Feb 4 08:15:00 2002

Message no. 9 Records show that at 17:52 on Monday 4/02/02, Damion Milliken wrote:
<<snip>>
>You're also neglecting Aiming. It is possible for a firer to Aim for -1, and
<<snip>>
>Another factor to consider is that a Smartlink II only has a +2 modifier for
>Calling a Shot. So in your example, the Called shot would have a TN of 3,
>not 5. This is well and truely worth taking.

My players regularly use Aiming to moderate the Called Shot penalty.
Further, with the chromeboy's Smartlink II or the Adept's metamagic of
Centering (Ranged), the Called Shot penalty is either reduced to a bearable
level or, frequently, eliminated altogether.

>Lastly, I think that some of the problem with the Called Shot rules is the
>lack of useful things that (by the rules) can be done with them. If you
>expand the available options, then you make Called Shots more useful. Not
>necessarily more damaging or dangerous, but significantly more versatile and
>useful. For example, I've long used Marc Renouf's Called Shot rules, which
>allow a Called Shot to:
>a) Increase the Damage Level by 1 level (p 114 SR3).
>b) Target a specific external system on a vehicle-sized target (p 114 SR3).
>c) Avoid armour. This option incurs a +1 modifier per point of armour to be
> ignored, rather than the standard +4 modifier.
>d) Cause a Stun weapon (such as a club or unarmed blow) to do Physical
> damage (p 83 FoF).
>e) Achieve some other game effect.

I use all of these in my game and, in addition, specify two more:
i) Automatically force a Wound Affect Check (from MM);
II) Degrade the target's armor if any damage whatsoever is caused (from CC).

Chris

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Joshua Mun)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Tue Feb 5 10:55:01 2002

Message no. 10 >
> I'm sorry, you tell your players a shot against them was a called-shot? How
> are they to know? I never tell my players, so they can't just dodge those
> and not care about the rest. (Also, realistically, a shot to the head will
> kill most people most of the time, so a called shot to the head is great. At
> least, the players like to use them, but hate when that logic is applied to
> them. [: )
>
> To sum up, why would you tell your players a shot was called? It's like
> telling them that the ammo they're rolling against is EX-Explosive. There's
> no need to know aside from the "Your target number is X, roll your body."

You tell them their TN's? :-)
--
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as long as most of the researchers remain 'communists'."
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"Do not fear death so much, but rather the inadequate life."
- Bertolt Brecht

From:	shadowrn@*********.com (Russ Parker)
Subject:	Called Shot Rules.
Date:	Tue Feb 5 12:10:07 2002

Message no. 11 >Lastly, I think that some of the problem with the Called Shot rules is the
>lack of useful things that (by the rules) can be done with them. If you

In the game that I have been playing in Called Shots only are reduced by
armor on the area where they hit. So a CS to the leg is not going to be
reduced by that Armored Jacket. Also the DL to the area hit is +1, but
overall is -1. So a S Wound to the Leg is only L overall. Do something
that requires you to use your leg and you are at -3, otherwise -1. And life
gets worse if you try and run. The ugly part is a CS to the head. It
causes and extra +1 DL if unarmored and is to the overall damage indicator.

Needless to say, Called Shots to the head tend to be, well, Deadly. Bad
Juju. Which has pretty much put them into the same class in our game as
Sniper Rifles. In the name of actually having a chance of keeping
characters alive for a reasonable period of time we as Players do not use
them and the GM does not use them against us. I play a fairly tough
Gillette type. BODY 12 and usually a Ballistic of 8. Even fully kitted out
I am burning Karma to stay alive if I get popped with either.

Some things just make the world a more dangerous place. We could use them,
but we would be using the Character Creation rules a lot more to. We also
try and keep the lethality level down since it tends to be bad business. In
about 2 1/2 years of mostly weekly play I have probably geeked less than 10
people. Knocked a lot more out of course, but < 10 deaders.

Russell Parker
Peregrine Systems Customer Support
AssetCenter Level 2, NAPLA

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