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Message no. 1
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:40:02 -0400
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

At 12:53 PM 7/29/98 -0400, Steve wrote:
>On a related note does anybody know of any rules for using standard
camo
>clothing. I think adding +2 to the target numbers for perception
tests
>works if the camo pattern is terrain appropriate, +1 if it is not
(forest
>camo in an urban envrionment) and -1 to -2 if it is particuraly in
>appropriate (wearing black in an artic envriomnent).

Actually, FASA's a bit more extreme, acording to the rules in FoF. +4
to the perception test to detect someone wearing apropriate camo for
the environment, and a -2 to detect someone wearing inaprorpriate
camo.

A basic Ruthenium suit gives you the same +4, and aparently it's
always apropriate for the environment.
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--
-- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

You dare defy my whims?!?
I am the game master; you are my pawns!
I created the world you see before you!
I control your fate!"
-- Dexter, Dexter's Laboratory.
Message no. 2
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:48:53 -0400
> >On a related note does anybody know of any rules for using standard
> camo
> >clothing. I think adding +2 to the target numbers for perception
> tests
> >works if the camo pattern is terrain appropriate, +1 if it is not
> (forest
> >camo in an urban envrionment) and -1 to -2 if it is particuraly in
> >appropriate (wearing black in an artic envriomnent).
>
> Actually, FASA's a bit more extreme, acording to the rules in FoF. +4
> to the perception test to detect someone wearing apropriate camo for
> the environment, and a -2 to detect someone wearing inaprorpriate
> camo.
>
> A basic Ruthenium suit gives you the same +4, and aparently it's
> always apropriate for the environment.
>
That's the WHOLE POINT of RP!! That is why they made it!
The US military has about 8 (more?) different camo patterns for various
conditions (snow, woods, night, desert, grassland, topics, etc.). That
crap gets expensive. This way they have a perfect sample of the color
patches in the background (it's taken on the fly) as well as ONE suit
that you can wear in ANY environment.
Really even if the suit just snapped stills and painted
the suit once you were in the new environment that would be better than
producing a dozen different camo patterns and you would still have
"appropriate" camo.
Message no. 3
From: Mike Chartier <mefron@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:05:29 -0400
At 02:40 PM 7/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Actually, FASA's a bit more extreme, acording to the rules in FoF. +4
>to the perception test to detect someone wearing apropriate camo for
>the environment, and a -2 to detect someone wearing inaprorpriate
>camo.
>
>A basic Ruthenium suit gives you the same +4, and aparently it's
>always apropriate for the environment.
> -- Paul Gettle (RunnerPaul@*****.com)

The one thing we're forgetting is thermographic vision. Even the best built
ruthenium suit cannot cover a person's body heat. And according to FoF
natural thermo vision displays both the "visible" and IR spectrums
simultaneously.

Magic auras are the same way but mages are (supposed to be) rare and bushes
and trees (plants) have auras that someone can "hide" in.

-Mike
Message no. 4
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 21:14:20 -0500
>The one thing we're forgetting is thermographic vision. Even the best built
>ruthenium suit cannot cover a person's body heat. And according to FoF
>natural thermo vision displays both the "visible" and IR spectrums
>simultaneously.

How about ruthenium camo suit over some kind of IR-damping gear, sort of
like what Val Kilmer wore in the opening scenes of THE SAINT?

Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to make
one.
Message no. 5
From: Mike Chartier <mefron@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 22:58:27 -0400
At 09:14 PM 7/29/98 -0500, Patrick wrote:

>How about ruthenium camo suit over some kind of IR-damping gear, sort of
>like what Val Kilmer wore in the opening scenes of THE SAINT?

You can get one of those rubber insulating suits but you can't stay in them
for very long. The temperature inside is around 140+ F and any sort of
physical exertion will dehydrate you quickly. Also it's almost hot enough
to slow roast you. Not healthy for extended periods (30 minutes max).

>Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to make
>one.

With natural thermo? Yeah, dwarves and trolls for starters. Most awakened
(and mundane) creatures have other ways of detecting hidden people (scent,
astral, etc).

-Mike
Message no. 6
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 04:26:24 EDT
In a message dated 30/07/98 01:20:10 Central Daylight Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to make
> one.

Since I noticed with another post that you were refering to one with a
deadened IR signature, try looking at the Juggernaut (think awakened Armadillo
combined with SOTA tank and six very mean women with PMS). I think that one
is mentioned as having almost no IR signature
Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:22:21 +0100
Mike Chartier said on 22:05/29 Jul 98,...

> The one thing we're forgetting is thermographic vision. Even the best built
> ruthenium suit cannot cover a person's body heat. And according to FoF
> natural thermo vision displays both the "visible" and IR spectrums
> simultaneously.

Modern camouflage clothing is often printed with dyes that also
work against thermographic systems, to a degree. I own a couple
of US Army jackets as part of my collection of modern military
equipment; a few years ago I noticed that automatic light
switches in a hallway wouldn't switch on for me until I was well
into the hallway, while for other people they went on almost
instantly. Doing a little test, I found that if I stood in a place
where the lights were still off, and I took off my jacket, they
suddenly did go on. It seems to me that the lights only went on
when my legs got into the field of view of the thermal sensor that
controlled them.

Going by that, I'd say camouflage works against thermographic
vision as well, to a certain degree. Perhaps not as well as against
"normal" vision, but there will likely be some modifier, especially
against natural thermographic vision (perhaps one-half normal?).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:22:20 +0100
Paul Gettle said on 14:40/29 Jul 98,...

> A basic Ruthenium suit gives you the same +4, and aparently it's
> always apropriate for the environment.

Somethin I thought of while I was waiting for my computer to
boot up this morning and was thinking about this RP thread:
modern camouflage patterns and colors are intended to break up
a vehicle's outline (look at pictures of western military vehicles
painted in camouflage schemes: the schemes are very similar
because of certain needs like hiding the vehicle's corners and
angles) and to match the colors of the background.

Wouldn't it be a beter use for RP to apply the colors the computer
can make out in the background to a pre-set camouflage pattern?
What would happen is this: the camera takes an image of the
area to one side of the RP suit, a computer breaks it down to see
what colors are used, and then applies the colors to one of a
number of pre-set camouflage patterns which best seems to fit
the background.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Hanging on to letting go.
-> NERPS Project Leader * ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 9
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:37:17 +0100
And verily, did Mike Chartier hastily scribble thusly...
|
|At 09:14 PM 7/29/98 -0500, Patrick wrote:
|
|>How about ruthenium camo suit over some kind of IR-damping gear, sort of
|>like what Val Kilmer wore in the opening scenes of THE SAINT?
|
|You can get one of those rubber insulating suits but you can't stay in them
|for very long. The temperature inside is around 140+ F and any sort of
|physical exertion will dehydrate you quickly. Also it's almost hot enough
|to slow roast you. Not healthy for extended periods (30 minutes max).

Remain in suit for one hour and baste regularely.....
>*snigger*<

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| Windows95 (noun): 32 bit extensions and a |
| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
| Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
| Finalist in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
| Computer Science | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 10
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:59:23 -0500
>> Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to
>> make one.
>
>Since I noticed with another post that you were refering to one with a
>deadened IR signature, try looking at the Juggernaut (think awakened
>Armadillo combined with SOTA tank and six very mean women with PMS).
>I think that one is mentioned as having almost no IR signature

Oh, right, I forgot about those. Time to dust off ParaCritters of North
America.

Now, how to adapt that into a suit a human-size NPC could wear if he had
to....
Message no. 11
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 11:25:32 -0400
> >The one thing we're forgetting is thermographic vision. Even the best
> built
> >ruthenium suit cannot cover a person's body heat. And according to
> FoF
> >natural thermo vision displays both the "visible" and IR spectrums
> >simultaneously.
>
> How about ruthenium camo suit over some kind of IR-damping gear, sort
> of
> like what Val Kilmer wore in the opening scenes of THE SAINT?
>
> Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to
> make
> one.
>
The Bandersnatch from Paras of NA has Predator-like
abilities. I'm not sure if it defeats IR or not.
Message no. 12
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:54:27 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
and they DON'<

> Modern camouflage clothing is often printed with dyes that also
> work against thermographic systems, to a degree. I own a couple
> of US Army jackets as part of my collection of modern military
> equipment; a few years ago I noticed that automatic light
> switches in a hallway wouldn't switch on for me until I was well
> into the hallway, while for other people they went on almost
> instantly. Doing a little test, I found that if I stood in a place
> where the lights were still off, and I took off my jacket, they
> suddenly did go on. It seems to me that the lights only went on
> when my legs got into the field of view of the thermal sensor that
> controlled them.

The uniforms issued by the US military are impregnated with
something (not the dye, but something else) that does block
thermographic vision and IR/UV devices (not the same as thermo,
but I'm not starting that thread again.)

If they are starched, the uniforms lose this ability. (and it does
work to a large degree)


--Droopy
Message no. 13
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:54:27 -0400
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
and they DON'<

> Wouldn't it be a beter use for RP to apply the colors the computer
> can make out in the background to a pre-set camouflage pattern?
> What would happen is this: the camera takes an image of the
> area to one side of the RP suit, a computer breaks it down to see
> what colors are used, and then applies the colors to one of a
> number of pre-set camouflage patterns which best seems to fit
> the background.

I wouldn't go for a preset pattern, but allow the computer to read
the general pattern of the area as well as the colors (like looking at
it out of focus or something.) Just a thought.


--Droopy
Message no. 14
From: "Droopy ." <mmanhardt@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:54:27 -0400
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
and they DON'T work]

> Actually, FASA's a bit more extreme, acording to the rules in FoF. +4
> to the perception test to detect someone wearing apropriate camo for
> the environment, and a -2 to detect someone wearing inaprorpriate
> camo.

Not extreme at all.


--Droopy
Message no. 15
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:51:00 EDT
In a message dated 7/30/98 9:01:24 AM US Eastern Standard Time, remo@***.NET
writes:

> >> Does such a critter exist in the game? If not, someone might need to
> >> make one.
> >
> >Since I noticed with another post that you were refering to one with a
> >deadened IR signature, try looking at the Juggernaut (think awakened
> >Armadillo combined with SOTA tank and six very mean women with PMS).
> >I think that one is mentioned as having almost no IR signature
>
> Oh, right, I forgot about those. Time to dust off ParaCritters of North
> America.
>
> Now, how to adapt that into a suit a human-size NPC could wear if he had
> to....

Ever considered how to adapt the vehicle customization Thermal Baffling to fit
onto a suit ?!? Or, something which is available modern day, the temperature
suit from The Saint.

The are catches with the IR suit from The Saint. First, unless the suit is
really expensive, the person's IR signature is going to be equal everywhere,
and this could give away the person. Second, it may hamper certain forms of
body armor due to the relative bulkiness of the suit (potentially).

The first option, using the customization Thermal Baffling (TB) would be
possible if the wearer puts it onto a Long Coat or something similar which
weighs less than 6 kg. Why? Anything less than 6 kg in weight is considered
a Body 0 vehicle, and the Load Reduction for TB is Body x 50 kg, so 0 x 50 = 0
kg.

So, going with adding TB onto anything weighing less than 6 kg would cost as
follows potentially ...

Increase in Signature (Levels) Cost / Level (in nuyen) Street Index /
(Availability)
+1(Security Grade) 15,000 2 (6 / 14
days)
+2 (Military Grade) 22,500 3
(8 / 14 days)

So, putting this onto anything weighing more than 6 kg will incur seriously
penalties in the area of encumbrance.

There is also the potential (and we do allow for it here) of putting the
Increase Signature design option onto clothing also. Then there is also RAM.

-Herc
------- The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 16
From: Jacob Aldridge <aldridgej@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:21:02 -0400
Droopy . wrote:

> From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
> Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
> and they DON'<
>
> > Modern camouflage clothing is often printed with dyes that also
> > work against thermographic systems, to a degree. I own a couple
> > of US Army jackets as part of my collection of modern military
> > equipment; a few years ago I noticed that automatic light
> > switches in a hallway wouldn't switch on for me until I was well
> > into the hallway, while for other people they went on almost
> > instantly. Doing a little test, I found that if I stood in a place
> > where the lights were still off, and I took off my jacket, they
> > suddenly did go on. It seems to me that the lights only went on
> > when my legs got into the field of view of the thermal sensor that
> > controlled them.
>
> The uniforms issued by the US military are impregnated with
> something (not the dye, but something else) that does block
> thermographic vision and IR/UV devices (not the same as thermo,
> but I'm not starting that thread again.)
>
> If they are starched, the uniforms lose this ability. (and it does
> work to a large degree)
>
> --Droopy

I would have to greatly agree. I'm currently serving with the US Marines.
There is a certain 'something' that does help block the heat sources of a human.
Though after a short period of time it goes away and effectively becomes
useless.

Aelfric
Message no. 17
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 12:30:13 EDT
In a message dated 7/31/1998 7:30:35 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
aldridgej@***.NET writes:

>
> I would have to greatly agree. I'm currently serving with the US Marines.
> There is a certain 'something' that does help block the heat sources of a
> human.
> Though after a short period of time it goes away and effectively becomes
> useless.
>
that's pocket weave baffling guys....think "Quilted Northern Toilet Paper",
and you begin to get the idea. The material is multi-layered, and the
respiration of it is far different than the standard "one-layer t-shirt".

-K
Message no. 18
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:57:54 -0700
Ah, right, the good old days.

I did some work at Ft. Belvoir on this in 1886 I believe it was. If it's
like the materials we were looking at it mostly allows you to match the
chlorophyll curve ... it's effectively impossible to "block" heat without a
large thickness of air-porous material.


At 8:21 AM -0400 7/31/98, Jacob Aldridge wrote:

> I would have to greatly agree. I'm currently serving with the US Marines.
>There is a certain 'something' that does help block the heat sources of a
>human.
>Though after a short period of time it goes away and effectively becomes
>useless.
>
> Aelfric

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 19
From: Nexx Many-Scars <Nexx3@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:33:41 EDT
In a message dated 31/07/98 17:22:19 Central Daylight Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> I did some work at Ft. Belvoir on this in 1886 I believe it was. If it's
> like the materials we were looking at it mostly allows you to match the
> chlorophyll curve ... it's effectively impossible to "block" heat without
a
> large thickness of air-porous material.
>

Uhhh, you do mean 1986, don't you? Our should we start calling you "The
Laughing Man"?

Nexx
Message no. 20
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Camo and Ruthenium [was: not Ruthenium Polymers,
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:29:32 -0400
> Ah, right, the good old days.
>
> I did some work at Ft. Belvoir on this in 1886 I believe it was. If
> it's
> like the materials we were looking at it mostly allows you to match
> the
> chlorophyll curve ... it's effectively impossible to "block" heat
> without a
> large thickness of air-porous material.
>
good OLD days. 1886? How old are you?? ;)

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