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Message no. 1
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:08:05 +0200
And finally, Richard Tomasso expressed himself by writing:

> open area. A flat black will stand out against any color except black
> (or a full shadow).

Black fatigues stand out against anything but black, as the background
is of a lighter color. When your eyes adjust to the conditions, you'll
see them.
BTW, has anybody seen the clothing russian Ommon and Alpha Team soldiers
wear? A nearly black background, with "patches" of dark grey and sand
IIRC. They used these during the 1992 revolt in moscow, IIRC.

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 2
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 14:47:50 -0400
At 19.08 09-02-99 +0200, you wrote:
>BTW, has anybody seen the clothing russian Ommon and Alpha Team soldiers
>wear? A nearly black background, with "patches" of dark grey and sand

Russian urban. I've saw some pictures of it from the Baltics and just
after the attempted coup in Moscow, but it wasn't quite as dark as how I'm
seeing your description (NBD, everyone sees colours a little different). I
thought the background was dark grey/off-black, with dark green-grey and
medium brown patches, btu my memopry core may also be faulty. Interesting
looking stuff, but I'd like to play with it myself. I'm willing to bet
that it works pretty well at night in a patchily street light lit (say that
three times fast) area, all I saw of it was near concrete or brick during
the day.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 3
From: Arclight arclight@*********.de
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 01:42:23 +0200
And finally, IronRaven expressed himself by writing:

> Russian urban. I've saw some pictures of it from the

<snip>

> looking stuff, but I'd like to play with it myself. I'm willing to bet
> that it works pretty well at night in a patchily street light
> lit (say that
> three times fast) area, all I saw of it was near concrete or brick during
> the day.

Well, when I saw pictures from the attack on Ommon-defended facilities,
taken by a camera with IMO a night vision device attached, I could
recognize
most terrain features and many other things but certainly not where the
tracers
came from :)
So, to get deeper into camo, which pattern would you use against opposition
with low-light capability? Are there special ones to know?

--
[arclight@*********.de]<><><><><><>[ICQ14322211]
Vorsicht Ritchie, ein Hochhäus!! - Wer?
<><><><[http://www.datahaven.de/arclight]><><><>;
Message no. 4
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 1999 21:23:26 -0400
At 01.42 09-03-99 +0200, you wrote:
>So, to get deeper into camo, which pattern would you use against opposition
>with low-light capability? Are there special ones to know?

"Night desert". Basically a series of black lines on an OD background
with some balck dots. It is designed because (a) day desert may be to
light for night use, and (b) to help screw with low-end starlite-type
systems. Don't know a whole lot about it though, never having used it
against folks with NVDs or visa versa.
Supposedly, it is computer designed to help to interfeer with early
systems that use active illumination and to distort you out of existance on
low-end imaging tubes.



Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."
Message no. 5
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 1999 19:58:43 -0700 (PDT)
> Russian urban. I've saw some pictures of it from the Baltics and
just after the attempted coup in Moscow, but it wasn't quite as dark as
how I'm seeing your description (NBD, everyone sees colours a little
different
> Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu

Are these pics available anywhere?

==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 6
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1999 10:16:38 +0200
According to Arclight, at 1:42 on 3 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Well, when I saw pictures from the attack on Ommon-defended facilities,
> taken by a camera with IMO a night vision device attached, I could
> recognize most terrain features and many other things but certainly not
> where the tracers came from :) So, to get deeper into camo, which pattern
> would you use against opposition with low-light capability? Are there
> special ones to know?

Apparently, the US-isse night desert parka and trousers work well. It's a
medium green cloth with a regular grid pattern with irregular "blots" in
dark green printed over it; the grid lines are only about 3 mm wide and
the same distance apart.

From what I've read and heard, it's invisible at 200 meters through night-
vision goggles. Unfortunately, I don't have such goggles, else I could try
it out some night...


According to IronRaven, at 21:23 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> "Night desert". Basically a series of black lines on an OD background
> with some balck dots.

Dark green on medium green/OD, actually. Trust me on this one :)


According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:30 on 2 Sep 99, the word on
the street was...

> Plaid? Serious? Wouldn't a regular pattern be just as bad as a solid
> colour?

Not in this case. The pattern is intended to interfere with the
frequencies used by night vision devices, probably (though like I said
above, I've never been able to test it) in much the same way as when
someone on TV wears clothes with a fine grid pattern on it -- those cause
all kinds of funky distortions, though I suspect the military pattern is
intended to cause blind spots rather than distortions.

Also, the medium to dark green used, apparently works best at night
against normal, unaided vision as well -- much better than black, anyway,
in a desert environment (which is what these clothes are intended for,
after all). Due to the colors used, they should work well enough as
daytime camo in wooded areas as well. As for urban combat... I'm not sure.
The patterns are only supposed to work well at distances of a few hundred
meters (20% less visible at 100 m and invisible at 200 m, are the only
numbers I've ever seen for it) while in urban combat you're often looking
at house-to-house and room-to-room fighting, IOW much too close for the
pattern to work against low-light systems.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
De plaag is terug...!
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Message no. 7
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Camo patterns (was: RE: Questions of great importance)
Date: Fri, 03 Sep 1999 08:24:46 -0400
At 19.58 09-02-99 -0700, you wrote:
>Are these pics available anywhere?

CNN several years ago, but I can't think of anyplace else.


Kevin Dole, aka CyberRaven, aka IronRaven, aka Steel Tengu
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat in the face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in
your philosophy."

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