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Message no. 1
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Cancer and Healing
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:10:48 -0500
> That's one way of looking at it. Or I see it sorta like
> Wolverine's Healing factor was described. (He could drink, be
> poisoned or whatever, and a few minutes later his system
> had neutralized it).
> I figure a shaper could get cancer as easy as anybody else. However
> their body would heal the damage almost instantly.
> At this point we're definently in the realm of science fiction, so
> I guess real life medecine etc can be ignored.

One question, however, is would magical healing be effective against
cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
magical cures? Does it affect the aura?

Incidentally, y'all are doing it again... the Palladium list is fighting
about Wolverine...

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 2
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:47:10 -0600
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>


> One question, however, is would magical healing be effective against
>cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
>with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
>slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
>magical cures? Does it affect the aura?
>


Actually, I'm willing to go with Lehlan on this one. Though your body doesn't
physically realize that it's diseased, I could see the astral image being out
of whack since cancer isn't a magical disease of any sort. Hence, I think
magical healing could heal it, and perhaps shapeshifters wouldn't be in as
much danger from it if their regeneration is based on magical healing rather
than physiologic.

This of course also depends on how much you think physical DNA affects the
astral.

A GM could take it either way depending on what they wanted in their campaign.

Now when you start talking a magical cancer brought on by variations in the
background counts (visit Chicago much?) who knows what the heck could happen.
heh.. aural cancer. Magical attacks become easier and easier because you're a
"bigger" target. :)

So how should a GM work all this? How about a disease test when working in a
heavily polluted zone? How heavily poisoned the area is rolled against the
character's natural body at the end of each week spent in the area.
(Cumulative.. 4 days in, a break of a month and then 3 more days in gets you a
roll.) Remember dwarves get their +1 vs diseases and various anti-disease
cyberware your folks may have as well. Depending on your campaign, you may
find you're rolling every week, (Hey.. EVERYWHERE is polluted..) but I'd
generally only worry about it when the characters are in an area that's more
heavily polluted than where they grew up. Immunities and all.

-Karl
"That's just sick.."
Message no. 3
From: Mark Mains <mains@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:54:22 -0500
Nexx wrote:

> One question, however, is would magical healing be effective against
>cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
>with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
>slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
>magical cures? Does it affect the aura?

I had meant to address this in my previous post about cancer but forgot. When a
cancer developes it's only 1 cell or a small group of cells that lose the ability to
"turn off" at the appropriate time. The rest of the body is unaffected. Since
I
assume the aura to be a reflection of a person's overall body someone with cancer
could be affected by magical healing. In addition, I think that an advanced case of
cancer would show up in the aura of a person (it would be visible but not able to
mess up the healing process...just like you can tell from aura if a person has
cyberware but can still heal them).

Oh well...it's my 2 cents worth.

mark
Message no. 4
From: Stephen Delear <c715591@******.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:52:47 -0500
Just a really evil thought about what happens when a shaper gets cancer.
Anyone remember the Proteus from PAoE.

SteveD
Stephen Delear
University of Missouri-Columbia
Check out my Photo Message Board at http://www.missouri.edu/~c715591
"Sometimes I do get to places just when God's ready to have somebody click
the shutter" Ansel Adams
Message no. 5
From: Mark Ellis <mark@******.IDISCOVER.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:20:00 +0100
-----Original Message-----
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET <SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET>
Date: 24 April 1998 22:16
Subject: Cancer and Healing


.
>
> One question, however, is would magical healing be effective
against
>cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
>with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
>slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
>magical cures? Does it affect the aura?
>


Depends what spells you're talking about, IMO. Treat and Heal are for
'repair', cure disease and antidote remove foreign substances and organisms.
No reason you couldn't have a 'cure cancer' spell, but it would have a
pretty high drain. This would be quite a complicated process, since most
standard healing spells seem to speed up the body's own defences.

Anybody out there thought about how magical healing has affected healthcare
? I know magicians aren't exactly common, but it seems to me that a
competent healer with a bit of a philanthropist streak could make a pretty
significant impact, even if only in the local area.

Mark
Message no. 6
From: Airwasp <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:03:07 EDT
In a message dated 4/24/98 9:20:01 PM !!!First Boot!!!, nexx@********.NET
writes:

> One question, however, is would magical healing be effective against
> cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
> with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
> slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
> magical cures? Does it affect the aura?

The way I consider cancer is that it is basically like any normal disease,
which can have the Heal spell used on it, with one major difference, the Heal
/ Treat spell is only going to cause the cancer to abate for a short amount of
time (Force of spell in days normally) before beginning to reproduce itself.
The only true way to get rid of the cancer is to either remove the offending
cells, or perhaps some arcane Health Ritual Magic.

As for the cancer affecting a person's aura, I would say that in the initial
stages the cancer would be barely noticeable, and would have to be actively
searched for. In the more advanced stages, the cancer is much more easily
seen, though still has to either looked for, or the assensor must have some
medical understanding of what they are perceiving.

> Incidentally, y'all are doing it again... the Palladium list is
> fighting
> about Wolverine...

Yeah !!!!!!! We've caused a flame war on another list. May I suggest a
moment of silence so that way we can listen in on the action ?

Mike
Message no. 7
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:53:02 -0600
Stephen Delear wrote:
/
/ Just a really evil thought about what happens when a shaper gets cancer.
/ Anyone remember the Proteus from PAoE.

<shudder>

That's one of the few critters that I won't inflict on the PCs.

Interesting theory that a Proteus is a Shaper with cancer... Hm..
There might be an adventure there somewhere.

-David
--
"That which we do not know supports that which we know."
- Joseph Campbell
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 8
From: Mark Mains <mains@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:10:23 -0500
Mark Ellis wrote:

> Anybody out there thought about how magical healing has affected healthcare
> ? I know magicians aren't exactly common, but it seems to me that a
> competent healer with a bit of a philanthropist streak could make a pretty
> significant impact, even if only in the local area.
>

In the game we play we have DocWagon Magical. (I think that this was made up by
our GM but if not feel free to correct me) I provides the same service of doc
wagon platinum but is geared toward magical healing. It's very expensive but it
makes it easier on the magically active characters not having to worry about
invasive procedures.

Mark
Message no. 9
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:50:27 -0500
> Anybody out there thought about how magical healing has affected
healthcare
> ? I know magicians aren't exactly common, but it seems to me that a
> competent healer with a bit of a philanthropist streak could make a
pretty
> significant impact, even if only in the local area.

Actually, The Naked Dwarf, one of my characters (Bear Druid) ran a
pay-what-you-can-afford clinic in his area. Since most of his money came
from running, he didn't need the money, but Bear wanted him to teach and
heal people, so he did that when not engaged in other business. Gave him
one hell of an information base, too.
Beyond the anecdotal, I think it would be pretty common for shamen who
follow totems/idols/loa/whatever with healing outlooks to do. After all,
a little magical disinfectant, light healing, or even illusions to
entertain the kids (Entertainment 1 doesn't take much to learn, and can
get you some information from a street kid) doesn't cost the mage much,
but can save people a lot of money.

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
aka The Human Tangent
************
Three sparks that kindle love: a face, demeanour, speech
Three things that hide ugliness: good manners in the ill-favoured,
skill in a serf, wisdom in the misshapen.
Three things that ruin wisdom: ignorance, inaccurate knowledge,
forgetfullness. .
Three candles that illume every darkness: truth, nature, knowledge.
Three signs of a bad man: bitterness, hatred, cowardice.
Message no. 10
From: Jonathan Andrews <jmandrews@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:54:50 -0500
On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Mark Mains wrote:

> In the game we play we have DocWagon Magical. (I think that this was made up by
> our GM but if not feel free to correct me) I provides the same service of doc
> wagon platinum but is geared toward magical healing. It's very expensive but it
> makes it easier on the magically active characters not having to worry about
> invasive procedures.
>

And I'll bet mages are far more common a commodity in your campaign than
they seem to be in streamline FASA, neh? Otherwise, how would DWM have
enough clientele to stay in business?

Just a thought...
Jonathan Andrews
Message no. 11
From: Mark Mains <mains@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 04:55:44 -0500
> On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Mark Mains wrote:
>
> > In the game we play we have DocWagon Magical. (I think that this was made up by
>



> Jonathan Andrews wrote:
> And I'll bet mages are far more common a commodity in your campaign than
> they seem to be in streamline FASA, neh? Otherwise, how would DWM have
> enough clientele to stay in business?
>
> Just a thought...
> Jonathan Andrews


I guess I wan't clear enough in my original post...my fault. DocWagon Magical can be
used by a anyone who can afford it. It just offers (IMO) a better alternative for
magically active characters. Actually, in our campaign magic is pretty low...I am the
only person in my group who will play a mage.

mark
Message no. 12
From: Ereskanti <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:48:21 EDT
In a message dated 4/25/98 12:19:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mains@*********.NET writes:

> In the game we play we have DocWagon Magical. (I think that this was made up
> by
> our GM but if not feel free to correct me) I provides the same service of
> doc
> wagon platinum but is geared toward magical healing. It's very expensive
> but it
> makes it easier on the magically active characters not having to worry
about
> invasive procedures.
>
In the short, I actually think I like this idea. Something that would sort of
highlight "prefers or requires magical/non-invasive assistance when called
upon." Of course, I always made leaps of logic (another LOL) that Platinum or
even Gold mentions if the person is a licensed or certifiable magician. Just
as a warning/reminder to the medtechs on call.

-K
Message no. 13
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:32:08 +0100
And verily, did Nexx hastily scribble thusly...
| One question, however, is would magical healing be effective against
|cancer? Since most magical healing seems to be bringing the body in line
|with the aura (which the body normally does naturally, but at a much
|slower rate), would cancer, which is part of the body, be curable with
|magical cures? Does it affect the aura?

Personally, I'd say such things as radiation and carcenogens that
alter/damage DNA, wouldn't affect the aura.
The aura is a sort of "memory" of what the body is *SUPPOSED* to be, and
even if it is based on the DNA, a single cell or group of cells with
damaged/altered DNA would not be able to overcome the weight of all the
billions of other cells telling the aura that it *should* be like this
instead....

I suppose if over 50% of your cells became cancerous, *then* you might be
in trouble....

So yes, I do think magical healing could do it....
Now the big question if, what would the parameters of the spell be?
(It wouldn't be a standard "Cure Disease/Pathogen" type spell, because the
fault is at a genetic level and celular level, not an alien organism.


| Incidentally, y'all are doing it again... the Palladium list is fighting
|about Wolverine...

Wooooa... Gestault!
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| | graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit |
|Andrew Halliwell | operating system originally coded for a 4 bit |
|Principal Subjects in:- |microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that|
|Comp Sci & Electronics | can't stand 1 bit of competition. |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
Message no. 14
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:31:20 -0500
>
> From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
> Now when you start talking a magical cancer brought on by variations in the
> background counts (visit Chicago much?) who knows what the heck could happen.
> heh.. aural cancer. Magical attacks become easier and easier because you're a
> "bigger" target. :)
>
Ick..I hear <EGM> laughter somewhere in all of this.
Tinner are you around :)

> So how should a GM work all this? How about a disease test when working in a
> heavily polluted zone? How heavily poisoned the area is rolled against the
> character's natural body at the end of each week spent in the area.
> (Cumulative.. 4 days in, a break of a month and then 3 more days in gets you a
> roll.) Remember dwarves get their +1 vs diseases and various anti-disease
> cyberware your folks may have as well. Depending on your campaign, you may
> find you're rolling every week, (Hey.. EVERYWHERE is polluted..) but I'd
> generally only worry about it when the characters are in an area that's more
> heavily polluted than where they grew up. Immunities and all.
>
Been there done it. Try CalFree. Depending on where your at, diseases, cancer
etc are all very possible. Parts of it are heavily polluted, and some
of the waterways are downright nasty. My players (for once being smart)
did a bit of checking, invested in bioware or cyber, and magic.
Nobody ever came down with anything terminal, but I had fun forawhile giving
people earaches (affecting balance etc,+1 to certain T #'s etc)
, colds, etc. :)


--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 15
From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:40:52 -0500
>
>
> Anybody out there thought about how magical healing has affected healthcare
> ? I know magicians aren't exactly common, but it seems to me that a
> competent healer with a bit of a philanthropist streak could make a pretty
> significant impact, even if only in the local area.
>
In my campaign, most fairly large hospitals, have at least a few
healers. I think the original seattle sourebook had several entries
in the Shadowtalk section that was similiar to this.
I figure a healer, who is also a good doctor, is probably worth 5-10
normal doctors. And even more so if we throw in his research.
(A good idea for a run say I)
I've also got a lodge of bear shaman, who act as healers for the
lower levels of humanity. But like all mages, they don't like
being taken advantage of. (Another interesting note, I have one
bear shaman, who will only heal you, if an "unwounded" friend of yours
can outwrestle him in a fair fight. :))

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lehlan Decker 644-4534 Systems Development
decker@****.fsu.edu http://www.scri.fsu.edu/~decker
--------------------------------------------------------------------
"Uh-Oh Toto, it doesn't look like we're gods anymore."
Message no. 16
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:23:06 -0500
----------
> From: Lehlan Decker <decker@****.FSU.EDU>

> > From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
> > Now when you start talking a magical cancer brought on by variations
in the
> > background counts (visit Chicago much?) who knows what the heck could
happen.
> > heh.. aural cancer. Magical attacks become easier and easier because
you're a
> > "bigger" target. :)
I'd just like to point out that this wasn't me who said this (despite
the quoting).

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bardagh
"Death by a sword lasts but a moment, but a bard's scorn
lasts forever"
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars, PML FAQ Cop
"Discretion is the better part of honor.... and innuendo
the better part of humor."
aka Ellegon
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, mortal, for you are
crunchy and good with ketchup."
Message no. 17
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:48:39 -0400
At 11:32 AM 4/27/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Personally, I'd say such things as radiation and carcenogens that
>alter/damage DNA, wouldn't affect the aura.
>The aura is a sort of "memory" of what the body is *SUPPOSED* to be, and
>even if it is based on the DNA, a single cell or group of cells with
>damaged/altered DNA would not be able to overcome the weight of all the
>billions of other cells telling the aura that it *should* be like this
>instead....

I'm not too sure of that. What determines then what the aura is like?
I've always seen the aura as a -reflection- of what the body currently -is-.

losthalo
Message no. 18
From: Karl Low <kwil@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:17:15 -0600
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>

losthalo wrote:
>I'm not too sure of that. What determines then what the aura is like?
>I've always seen the aura as a -reflection- of what the body currently -is-.
>
I always thought of it as the other way around. The body reflects what the
aura is (hence damage to your astral form becomes physical) but sometimes that
reflection can be knocked out of whack.
Message no. 19
From: Katt Freyson <katt@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:29:19 -0400
From: Shadowrun Discussion [mailto:SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET]On
Behalf Of losthalo
Sent: April 27, 1998 11:49 AM
To: SHADOWRN@********.ITRIBE.NET
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing


I'm not too sure of that. What determines then what the aura is like?
I've always seen the aura as a -reflection- of what the body currently -is-.
=======================
The spirit determins the body and the aura.

Katt Freyson
ICQ UIN 3337155
Montreal, Canada
http://www.dsuper.net/~katt
Message no. 20
From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Cancer and Healing
Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 12:28:13 -0400
At 10:17 AM 4/27/98 -0600, you wrote:
>From: losthalo <losthalo@********.COM>
>
>losthalo wrote:
>>I'm not too sure of that. What determines then what the aura is like?
>>I've always seen the aura as a -reflection- of what the body currently -is-.
>>
> I always thought of it as the other way around. The body reflects what
the
>aura is (hence damage to your astral form becomes physical) but sometimes
that
>reflection can be knocked out of whack.

Agreed. There is definitely a symmetry between the two... But obviously
it is a two-way street. Changes in the meat are reflected by the astral
body (presence of cyberware makes it appear different, emotional and
medical changes affect it, etc.). Damage to the astral form is a murky
area of the rules at best, since most things that will damage it are
designed to ground into the physical body (spells). Now, spirits OTOH
could strike a character in the astral and the body will manifest the
damage, so damage can be delivered to the astral body and transfer to the
physical form. But it is not as simple as the aura being a template for
the body, making the body according to a blueprint... Just the same as DNA
isn't a plan for a body but a rough sketch, the aura is not a "plan" for a
person, but a part of them.

losthalo

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