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Message no. 1
From: shirogr@*****.com (Shiro BsquLadat)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 15:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
I had a session today where the team rigger used
concussion grenades against an armored vehicle. The
rules say that the attack did damage the vehicle and
so I let it pass, but I find it really unlogical that
a grenade designed to cause stun damage can really
hurt a vehicle, armored or unarmored.Does anyone know
how a concussion grenade is supposed to work?What do
you say, should it affect vehicles and drones?

====




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Message no. 2
From: lordmountainlion@***.rr.com (Scott)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Sat, 29 May 2004 19:46:35 -0600
I had a session today where the team rigger used
concussion grenades against an armored vehicle. The
rules say that the attack did damage the vehicle and
so I let it pass, but I find it really unlogical that
a grenade designed to cause stun damage can really
hurt a vehicle, armored or unarmored.Does anyone know
how a concussion grenade is supposed to work?What do
you say, should it affect vehicles and drones?

More shadowrunesque combat rues that don't meet real life.

Well sortah.

In the army during CQB we used flashbang grenades to disorient and
distract the enemy. If you were close to them you could get a decent
sensation of a blow. I believe they were 10,000 cycles of sound and
100,000 candle power. Might be the other way around. As for damaging
vehicles, sound waves are a form of concussion and concussions can blow
out windows, shatter pressurized parts, tier seals, brittle ceramics,
polymer sealants(I think), track pads rattled loose, rubber treads from
multi sprocket drones misaligned or ripped. A I recall it's a concept
of debilitative damage and not permanent. So yeah I can see it
happening. As for how they work, usually is a pryo chemical and
blasting powder in thin plastic or cardboard shell. Pull pin, leveler
flies off fuse ignites the powder and pyro and banging bingo you got
your effect.

[>] Scott

'Would you MIND not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons please?'



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Message no. 3
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 10:41:41 +0200
According to Scott, on Sunday 30 May 2004 03:46 the word on the street
was...

> I believe they were 10,000 cycles of sound

"Cycles of sound"...? IIRC flashbangs tend to be 150+ dB, but I've never
heard of a measurement called a "cycle"...

However, in SR, the closest thing to flashbangs are probably the flash and
superflash grenades, not concussion grenades. IMHO, a concussion grenade
is probably what IRL is called an offensive or blast grenade[1], which are
basically just an explosive charge with a detonator, and no fragmentation
effect. It can be argued that this kind of thing would cause Stun damage
in SR (although technically, that would mean regular C4, C12, etc. should
also cause Stun damage, of course).

[1]SR has always had the definition of offensive and defensive grenades
reversed. IRL, a defensive grenade is one you can use when you're on the
defensive, and so has a big blast/fragmentation radius (because you'll be
in cover when you use it), whereas a RL offensive grenade usually does not
have fragmentation at all, allowing you to use it with relatively little
danger when you attack.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
... in real life, which was styled after the film.
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 4
From: sinabian@*******.com (James Mick)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Sun, 30 May 2004 07:48:20 -0400
I think the interesting question that could solve this answer and make for
some amusing antics on the part of your gamers would be "Is the grenade
small enough that it could be crammed down the gas tank?"


Just my .02¥
The Mad Kilted Cyberzombie GM

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Message no. 5
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:15:07 +0100
In article <20040529220331.51339.qmail@********.mail.yahoo.com>, Shiro
BsquLadat <shirogr@*****.com> writes
>I had a session today where the team rigger used
>concussion grenades against an armored vehicle. The
>rules say that the attack did damage the vehicle and
>so I let it pass, but I find it really unlogical that
>a grenade designed to cause stun damage can really
>hurt a vehicle, armored or unarmored.Does anyone know
>how a concussion grenade is supposed to work?

It produces a blast effect that disorients and stuns anyone foolish
enough to be standing close enough, without producing fragmentation that
would injure or kill. For an example, you'd use concussion grenades
before an opposed entry to a hostage situation.

>What do
>you say, should it affect vehicles and drones?

No.

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 6
From: ShadowRN@********.demon.co.uk (Paul J. Adam)
Subject: Can concusion grenades really damage vehicles?
Date: Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:29:14 +0100
In article <200405301041.41701.gurth@******.nl>, Gurth <gurth@******.nl>
writes
>However, in SR, the closest thing to flashbangs are probably the flash and
>superflash grenades, not concussion grenades.

I'd differ: flashbangs are primarily concussion weapons with the flash a
bonus, where SR's flash grenades are primarily light producers with a
minor concussive effect.

(I've been in the same room as a thunderflash when it went off, and
trust me - you don't care about the flash, it's the shockwave that turns
your brain to jelly for a few seconds)

>IMHO, a concussion grenade
>is probably what IRL is called an offensive or blast grenade[1],

SR does actually separate these already...

>which are
>basically just an explosive charge with a detonator, and no fragmentation
>effect.

Not quite true. 'Offensive' grenades are designed to produce *small*
fragments, not no fragments: 'defensive' grenades produce large, often
less-controlled fragments. (I'm using the terms in their real-world
sense - reverse this for SR)

The German DM51 is an offensive grenade: its plastic body and sleeve
contains 6,500 steel balls of 2mm diameter (.035 grams each) which are
effective to about 5m range - small and light, they lose velocity
rapidly, but at 5m from the grenade an 'average man' (0.4 square metres)
would be hit by eight fragments: beyond 5m the fragments lose velocity
very rapidly and become ineffective.

The British L2 grenade is a defensive type: it has a steel body and
notched wire liner, that produces about 1,200 fragments that each weigh
about four times - .13g - as much as the ballbearings from the DM51. In
addition the fuze, base plug and chunks of body are thrown around
randomly enough that "peacetime safety distance" is 220 metres to be
safe. The L2's fragments are lethal to much greater distances (over 10m
before the shards of wire lose too much velocity to hurt) but at the
range where 'average man' gets hit by eight fragments from the DM51, he
gets only 1.4 from the L2 (though they're bigger, faster and more
painful) One effect is that, in open terrain, you don't *throw* L2
grenades: you *post* them into the enemy's trench or bunker. (This means
one lucky soldier gets to crawl up to the position under the covering
fire of his colleagues. I've done this as an exercise, with live
ammunition, and been *very* concerned because I knew what crap shots
some of my section were :) )


The DM51 can also be used without its fragmentation sleeve, which would
make it a concussion grenade (no fragmentation, just blast)

>It can be argued that this kind of thing would cause Stun damage
>in SR (although technically, that would mean regular C4, C12, etc. should
>also cause Stun damage, of course).

How to Make a Home Made Claymore: one brick of PE4, used to line the
back of one empty ammunition box, fit with detonator and cord... and
fill with what Q Grieveson eloquently called "sparkly crap". Nails,
screws, nuts, bolts, ball-bearings, or empty cases if that's all you've
got. It's the fragments that kill, as a general rule.

--
Paul J. Adam

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