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Message no. 1
From: Jacob Machinov steel_machine@*******.com
Subject: Candor
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:04:12 PDT
>>Where the hell have you been for the last year?
>>Obviously not here or you wouldn't need to ask
>>this question.

I've been right here.Until recently I haven't had a forum in which I could
express my opinions.Sorry I am not as big as a geek as you. Computers are
something that I am still learning about.Websites like these aren't exactly
advertised on the news.I only recently came across this site while
blundering through the web.


>>Wrong. The new books do more than just reprint your
>>old SR1 & SR2 books. Remember that Shadowrun is
>>set in a living world. Time has marched on significantly
>>since your 2053 version SR2 was printed. These changes
>>are reflected in alot of the new product.

No really? You don't say? By the by my version of SRII is 2060. So it does
more than reprint my other books? Fine. What? What are these new changes.I
don't expect you to reprint the damn book- I own them anyways. But what
makes III that much better?

>>Nothing has changed here. Nothing in SR3 limits the
>>creativity of GMs and players. If anything I feel SR3 has
>>enhanced the flow of the game.

I'm glad it enhances your game. I'm not saying the third edition limits my
game. Nothing but my players and I do that. What I am saying is the third
edition marks what I see as a change in the direction in the game
itself.FASA is starting down the road that TSR has made so popular: heres
the main book, you can use it on its own, but really you need this book in
order to have these rules and this book for these rules....and so on. How
long has it been since FASA has really printed a "color" book? And don't
give me the Arcology ADVENTURE. This is what concerns me. That the people
who buy the game are shifting from the game to the game mechcanics.


>>Granted. No complaints here.

Gee thanks.


>>Now it's here that you ignorance of SR3 shows.
>>Those of us that have been around the block
>>for the previous editions will tell you that combat
>>and munchkinism is alot harder in SR3.

>>I remember the good ole days of letting loose with an Ingram
>>Smartgun on full auto and dropping five guys with one burst.
>>This is unlikely to happen in SR3. Dice Pools only refresh
>>at the end of the combat round and NOT each pass as
>>before. A lot more lead flies around without hitting anything
>>in SR3 but when it does it hurts.

Sorry I think thats garbage. I personally see the opportunity for even more
of that sort of thing. Especially as we emphasize the rules more and more.

>>SR3 has gone out of it's way to ensure that everyone
>>gets a fair go in most situations, especially combat.
>>I've played games of SR2 where I didn't even bother
>>drawing my weapon in a combat situation because
>>I knew that the enemies would all be dead long before
>>I got a turn on a low initiative number.

Sorry but that sounds like a personal problem.


>>All of the previously printed sourcebooks are still usable
>>under SR3, especially the 'colour' books. No game
>>mechanic change can make this material obsolete.

I didn't say they were obsolete. I didn't say that the change in rules
invalidated these books. I said that they are a dying breed.


>>Wrong. It'll cost you the amout of the core rules in your
>>country, nothing more unless you choose to purchase
>>new products. They are not necessary for play.

Wrong. I want cyber and bio I need Man and Machine. I want the new rules I
need the companion.If I do not want to have a bunch of unsupported books I
need the new ones. I hope you don't think that they are just done printing
them after they spit out the five or so they have announced.It gets
exspensive after awhile.


>>Your loss then. I assure you learning SR3 is worth every
>>bit of time that you invest in it. It is a much better game
>>than previous editions.

Again I have to wonder.Some things are good. A lot are just---there.


>>Hey there are plenty of players out there content
>>to stay with SR2. Link up with them and you're
>>fine. Otherwise drop the $30 and leap forth into
>>the best version of SR ever.

True enough in some ways. Unfortunately there isn't a glut of players around
here.Thats niether the here nor now. And yeah I dropped the thirty books
when they first published the third edition.


>>It's worth it. I assure you again.

Like I said. Maybe.



>>Urrrghh SR4, please don't rush making this one FASA. SR3 is just fine.

Some of us said the same thing about SRII. But hey I agree. Lets see where
third edition leads us.


>>There is so much that you miss out on by not
>>upgrading that I can't do it justice in one email.
>>If you check out the logs from the last year you'll
>>find that there has been plenty of change.

I will definitely take you up on that. I have seen some good things here. I
appreciate your candor, and your comments.

____________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
____________________________________





" Religion is a crutch for those who lack the moral courage and intestinal
fortitude to face reality on their own terms"


______________________________________________________
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Message no. 2
From: Walter Scheper Ratlaw@*******.com
Subject: Candor
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 00:49:12 +0000 (GMT)
On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:04:12 -0700 (PDT), Jacob Machinov
<steel_machine@*******.com> wrote:

[snip]

It seems to me that everything you have stated about SRIII can be
easily applied to SRII, unless I'm missing your emphasis. If your
emphasizing the lack of "atmosphere" books then I can't really argue
with you, since I'm fairly new to SR and haven't purchased or read
many of the older books. However as far as MitS and the other source
books go, how are they any different from what FASA has done in the
past?

I purchased SRII way back in middle school, which is going on 10 years
now and never managed to find any of the supplements or any groups to
play with. So 10 years later I find a group of AD&D'ers and, through
some miracle :), I convince them to try out Shadowrun, because I
noticed that SRIII had come out. Now having read this group for a
while I have become aware of all the various books that FASA published
between my purchase of SRII and SRIII, and it seems to me that every
edition has had a similar layout: a core book, a magic book, a sammie
book, a decker book, a rigger book, and a bunch of other stuff. Now I
don't mean to sound like I'm dismissing all the other stuff, but I
don't have as much experience with them as the more rule based books
so I'm hesitant to comment. However, it seems to me that FASA hasn't
changed a bit in the 10 years that I failed to find a RPing group:
they follow the same development procedure: each edition updates the
main book first (because that is the only necessary book) and then
updates the periphery rule books for those players who want more
detailed rules.

As for the lack of color, well like I said, I don't have much
experience with them. So any of you list members who do, answer me
this: when did all the atmospheric books come out? Right after the
core book or a little bit later? If my humble opinion is correct then
I think its to early to be declaring SRIII to be a rule lawyer's
wetdream and the death of SR's atmosphere.

Ratlaw
Walter Scheper
Message no. 3
From: Rori Steel cullyn@*****.com.au
Subject: Candor
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1999 11:08:19 +0000 (GMT)
On Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:04:12 PDT, you wrote:

>>>Where the hell have you been for the last year?
>>>Obviously not here or you wouldn't need to ask
>>>this question.
>I've been right here.Until recently I haven't had a forum in which I could
>express my opinions.Sorry I am not as big as a geek as you. Computers are
>something that I am still learning about.Websites like these aren't exactly
>advertised on the news.I only recently came across this site while
>blundering through the web.

You do realise that you now have about zero respect level from some of
the people on this list now dont you? Your first post was ok. A
little un/misinformed maybe, but it was good to see someone elses
point of view. Manx came out and gave you some FACTS about SRIII and
was honest, and didnt take you on a flame ride even though it was in
the realm of possibility. Now you come back and flame him as though
he knew nothing and you were MM? Please! Either figure out that we
are here to help each other, and have a bit of rivalry from time to
time, or sit there and flame people for good opinions and advice and
become known to many email programs kill filters. This is advice.
Please, show your maturity by not responding nastily.

>>>Urrrghh SR4, please don't rush making this one FASA. SR3 is just fine.
>Some of us said the same thing about SRII. But hey I agree. Lets see where
>third edition leads us.
>
>>>There is so much that you miss out on by not
>>>upgrading that I can't do it justice in one email.
>>>If you check out the logs from the last year you'll
>>>find that there has been plenty of change.
>
>I will definitely take you up on that. I have seen some good things here. I
>appreciate your candor, and your comments.

You did end well though. I for one love SR3, for the simple fact my
mage goes before the Sam has gone 4 times, and that a group of gangers
now posses a threat to even a good team.

I also like the karma give out for the metas v humans. Making it a
little easier on the uuumans. The skills work better (IMO), So do the
various pools. And the way your Atts affect your skills higher up
makes munchkinism harder, and the game more realistic.

I also enjoy the new books. New Seattle, Corp Download, the new
companion. And no they arnt necessary, but they add depth to what
happens in your game simply because your GM and you are better
informed.

If I can offer any advice, I'd simply say that ShadowRN Mailing list
is about good advice, updates, the OT banter *grin*, and some chatting
about events, new tech, new books, and the general goings on of FASA
and our lovely game. It isnt about flaming, although looking at some
newsgroups and mailing lists, its easy to see why some people
instinctively flame. Please, comment freely, but keep it honest and
not too personal :>

Welcome to the list!

Cullyn
(Newly appointed GridSec nobody)
cullyn@*****.com.au
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana" - Groucho Marx
Message no. 4
From: Sebastian Wiers m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Candor
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 20:55:25 -0700
> I'm glad it enhances your game. I'm not saying the third edition limits
my
> game. Nothing but my players and I do that. What I am saying is the third

> edition marks what I see as a change in the direction in the game
> itself.FASA is starting down the road that TSR has made so popular: heres

> the main book, you can use it on its own, but really you need this book
in
> order to have these rules and this book for these rules....and so on.

Didn't that happen with VR1, the Rigger Black Book, Shadowtechnolgy, and
Street Samurai Catalog? All of those were made for SR1, and released 8+
years ago! If this is a road you don't want to go down with FASA, you
should have gotten off the bus a long time ago...
Mostly, though, its been a pretty good ride, I'd say. Potentially costly,
maybe- though a less expensive habit that, say, smoking, or even going to
the movies regularly, or collecting comic books, or...

> How
> long has it been since FASA has really printed a "color" book? And don't
> give me the Arcology ADVENTURE. This is what concerns me. That the people
> who buy the game are shifting from the game to the game mechcanics.

I LIKE rules books; for me, they CREATE flavor, or, more propelry, give
you the framework for creating your own. For example, the otaku are more
interesting as potential PC's than as a rumour from a sourcebook intended
for GM eyes only.
What a person can do is integral to thier attitude. I really like playing
my Wu-Jen character, because I have to be very aware of what the physical
environment my character is in is like. That is partly a result of the
spirit conjouring rules for that character type, but it directly affects
how I play the character, and has come to color my character personality
and world view.

> >>I remember the good ole days of letting loose with an Ingram
> >>Smartgun on full auto and dropping five guys with one burst.
> >>This is unlikely to happen in SR3.
> >>Dice Pools only refresh
> >>at the end of the combat round and NOT each pass as
> >>before. A lot more lead flies around without hitting anything
> >>in SR3 but when it does it hurts.
>
> Sorry I think thats garbage. I personally see the opportunity for even
more
> of that sort of thing. Especially as we emphasize the rules more and
more.

That makes NO sense. If you emphasize rules that make combat riskier and
being outnumbered more dangerous, it does just that. It does NOT make
combat less risky and give you the abilty to win against overwhelming odds!
That's like saying you'll see more parked cars if you put up "no parking"
signs...
And in the case of SR3, those rules also happen to be easier to use and
teach, which seems a good thing, to be sure!

> >>All of the previously printed sourcebooks are still usable
> >>under SR3, especially the 'colour' books. No game
> >>mechanic change can make this material obsolete.
>
> I didn't say they were obsolete. I didn't say that the change in rules
> invalidated these books. I said that they are a dying breed.

More of a sleeping breed, from what I gather. But hey, FASA could be
asking Mike Mulvihil to LIE to us all, and be secretly developing nothing
but really boring rulebooks that never tell us anything about matrix
locations, magical events, space opperations, the world history of
2000-260X, and
creepy things that happen in that shadows.

Mongoose


"These days, you have to be pretty technical before you can even aspire to
crudeness."

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Candor, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!