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Message no. 1
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 14:53:14 +0200
> Good point, I think that GMs should be very carefull not to destroy
>the mental image of the SR universe FASA has created. Dragons should
>stay fearsome, they should not be alowed to become just another sort of
>critter for the players to slaughter.

That should maybe go for all critters in Shadowrun. Vampires can be used
really good as adversaries, but how about making one the good guy in an
adventure? Or how about insect spirits? My recent plea for help was answered
mostly with "have the mantis spirits invest a new spirit in Lydia just when
the PCs break down their door," but I DON'T WANT them to do that... I want
those spirits to go against the ideas my players currently have about insect
spirits: that they are all evil and should be killed ASAP. If the mantis
spirits help the PCs instead of attack them, that might give some really
nice roleplaying...
The same with dragons. Dragons in SR are always involved in grand schemes in
which the players are simple pawns who don't know what is happening until
they are allowed to find out (like in Harlequin, though without the elves).
The only exception is perhaps Dragonhunt, but even then only because
Eliohann has lost his memory and needs the PCs to find out who he is and why
he is in hospital.
If I were a better writer (wishful thinking :) I might try to develop an
adventure around just such a theme...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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Message no. 2
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Sat, 2 Jan 1993 06:29:54 +0100
Why is it that every time I play RPG...
Players are nastier than monsters ?...
Fonk dat !

RPGamers behave as barbarians. They never try to understand WHO (and not WHAT)
they have in front of them. As soon as it is not cute and/or has
wings and has a hot breath it must be killed. It is more interesting to be
in a world that is not manichean.
In real world some very dangerous people seem to be very weak, cute... and
a friend of mine is very tall, VERY impressive and is one of the sweetest
I know.

Try to have supposed to be monsters that are cool people, and be COOL...

I first tried it with ADD. I presented disgusting creatures (but they were
highly civilised) to PCs who behaved like Trolls in a pack of hobbits !
I know ADD has VERY BAD rep here but it is a funny game, and better than SR
to play in medieval time. I tried to play in medieval time with SR rules...
I'll never try again :-(

--

ATREIDE

GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- Y(+) t+
R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**-
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 3
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 12:06:25 +0200
>RPGamers behave as barbarians. They never try to understand WHO (and not WHAT)
>they have in front of them. As soon as it is not cute and/or has
>wings and has a hot breath it must be killed. It is more interesting to be
>in a world that is not manichean.

Which is maybe why we "enlightened GMs" :) could/should run adventures where
the critters _don't_ exist to get blown to pieces with AVMs...

>I first tried it with ADD. I presented disgusting creatures (but they were
>highly civilised) to PCs who behaved like Trolls in a pack of hobbits !
>I know ADD has VERY BAD rep here but it is a funny game

Did this actually work? I mean, a **&* character's goal in life is to kill
as many monsters as possible so he can get a castle for free at 9th level,
isn't it?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 4
From: Daniel Kollmer <dkollmer@**.OR.AT>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Fri, 12 May 1995 17:51:59 +0200
I use dragons very rarely in my SR campaigns.In four years gaming I came up
with dragons only three times-that means the Pcs actually saw one.One time
it was an out and out confrontation between them(sitting in an Aztech
Aguilar gunship) and a feathered serpent above the amazonian rainforest(by
the way the PCs lost)
The other two times,they met dragons it came down to heavily mindboggling
philosophical talks with the dragons,which left the PCs totally confused but
nothing wiser.
According to my opinion,dragons are that much aloof from human affairs,that
they don't see a reason to interfere with them big-time.Maybe younger
dragons would consider it fun to play with humans as pawns in their own
powergames,but as the dragon becomes older and wiser,it maybe becomes more
and more uncaring viewing humans as nothing more than amusement or in the
worst case a nuisance.

As for insect spirits,they are by no means evil.Killing and investing others
of their kind is just the way it works forr insects.The insect's world is a
brutal merciless one where only the most specialized and "ruthless" species
survives.Insect spirits will never kill somebody jus for the heck of it.They
kill to eat,to defend themselves,to protect their eggs andgenerally to
survive.The derive no pleasure from killing as some humans do...
HAVE A GOOD DAY-HAVE A BETTER TIME
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

E.lectron P.owered S.ound P.erformance
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Message no. 5
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 12:53:48 +0100
> >I first tried it with ADD. I presented disgusting creatures (but they were
> >highly civilised) to PCs who behaved like Trolls in a pack of hobbits !
> >I know ADD has VERY BAD rep here but it is a funny game
>
> Did this actually work? I mean, a **&* character's goal in life is to kill
> as many monsters as possible so he can get a castle for free at 9th level,
> isn't it?
>

It didn't but I tried... :-)


ATREIDE

GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- Y(+) t+
R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**-
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 6
From: ATREIDE - Aymeric RICHARD <arichard@****.IRESTE.FR>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:02:52 +0100
> As for insect spirits,they are by no means evil.Killing and investing others
> of their kind is just the way it works forr insects.The insect's world is a
> brutal merciless one where only the most specialized and "ruthless" species
> survives.Insect spirits will never kill somebody jus for the heck of it.They
> kill to eat,to defend themselves,to protect their eggs andgenerally to
> survive.The derive no pleasure from killing as some humans do...
> HAVE A GOOD DAY-HAVE A BETTER TIME
> [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
>
> E.lectron P.owered S.ound P.erformance
> [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
>
The difference between insects and shadowrunners ? These kill sometimes for
pleasure... Therefore my question is

"WHO IS EVIL ?"


--

ATREIDE

GCS d(++) H--() s !g p*+ au a- !v C+(++) UL+ P?>+ L+>++ N+ E- W M-- Y(+) t+
R+(++) G' !tv b++ D+ u**-
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| "Enjoy your life, it's so short when you have a Dragon in front of you..." |
| |
| Aymeric RICHARD - Atreide on IRC E-Mail : arichard@****.ireste.fr |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------|
Message no. 7
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:20:04 +0200
> The difference between insects and shadowrunners ? These kill sometimes for
> pleasure... Therefore my question is
> "WHO IS EVIL ?"

Who cares, its either us or them so as far as I am concerned they*are*evil*
and the more evil we think they are, the easier it will be to shoot the fragging
fleshforms. Its sort of mental doping..

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 8
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 19:43:50 +0200
> Who cares, its either us or them so as far as I am concerned they*are*evil*
>and the more evil we think they are, the easier it will be to shoot the
fragging
>fleshforms. Its sort of mental doping..

For the character or for the player?


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Zonco presents... Aural Floss! Order now while stocks last!
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 9
From: Joan Sheehan <shee4766@******.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 02:50:57 +0200
In article <199505151120.NAA00581@****.informatik.uni-Bremen.de> Jani Fikouras
<feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE> writes:
>Date: Mon, 15 May 1995 13:20:04 +0200
>Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
>From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
>Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?

>> The difference between insects and shadowrunners ? These kill sometimes for
>> pleasure... Therefore my question is
>> "WHO IS EVIL ?"

> Who cares, its either us or them so as far as I am concerned they*are*evil*
>and the more evil we think they are, the easier it will be to shoot the fragging
>fleshforms. Its sort of mental doping..

>--
> "Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

>GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
> M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?

Good God!...I guess I haven't really ran into any Roaches that wanted to go
and have coffee...they just usually aren't up to that kind of discussion...

They are involved with Insect politics...know what that is? I will give you a
hint...there isn't anything like insect politics..they are primevil...self
serving....malicious...I know you meet Runners like that everyday..but I doubt
you could offer a bug 10,000 bucks to not off you and have a shot at
negotiation.................................Mamoulian
Message no. 10
From: Jani Fikouras <feanor@**********.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 10:34:55 +0200
> > Who cares, its either us or them so as far as I am concerned they*are*evil*
> >and the more evil we think they are, the easier it will be to shoot the
> fragging
> >fleshforms. Its sort of mental doping..
>
> For the character or for the player?

For the character I guess, but its sure fun to "impose" this
sort of atmosphere on the players too.

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d H s+: !g p1 !au a- w+ v-(?) C++++ UA++S++L+$>++++ L+>+++ E--- N+ W(+)(---)
M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5++ R+++ tv b++ e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(-) y?
Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 19:13:28 +0200
>They are involved with Insect politics...know what that is? I will give you a
>hint...there isn't anything like insect politics..they are primevil...self
>serving....malicious...

You could have a very nice discussion with Eve, I think :)

>I know you meet Runners like that everyday..but I doubt
>you could offer a bug 10,000 bucks to not off you and have a shot at
>negotiation

Wanna bet? I have this feeling I know a few Mantis spirits who will be very
willing to discuss why they should or shouldn't do what the runners want
to... for some kind of counter-service, of course :)


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
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B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 12
From: Joan Sheehan <shee4766@******.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 05:27:38 +0200
In article <199505161713.AA22477@***.xs4all.nl> Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
writes:
>Date: Tue, 16 May 1995 19:13:28 +0200
>Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?

>>They are involved with Insect politics...know what that is? I will give you a
>>hint...there isn't anything like insect politics..they are primevil...self
>>serving....malicious...

>You could have a very nice discussion with Eve, I think :)

>>I know you meet Runners like that everyday..but I doubt
>>you could offer a bug 10,000 bucks to not off you and have a shot at
>>negotiation

>Wanna bet? I have this feeling I know a few Mantis spirits who will be very
>willing to discuss why they should or shouldn't do what the runners want
>to... for some kind of counter-service, of course :)


>Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
> What do I do next?
>Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
>P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
>B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)

Really?...I take it this conversation happened after the possession....I doubt
it..............Mamoulian
Message no. 13
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:56:06 +0200
>>Wanna bet? I have this feeling I know a few Mantis spirits who will be very
>>willing to discuss why they should or shouldn't do what the runners want
>>to... for some kind of counter-service, of course :)
>
>Really?...I take it this conversation happened after the possession....I doubt
>it..............Mamoulian

The conversation hasn't taken place yet, as I haven't played SR in about 1
1/2 weeks (stupid exams -- someone else's, not mine :). As people might
recall, the weekend before last I asked for ideas on an adventure designed
to get my players into Chicago before the bug explosion happens. As such,
they're now hunting after a group of mantis spirits without knowing it. And
I for one don't want to portray them as the ants the PCs have already run
into some time ago; I don't exactly know how I'm going to do this yet, but
rest assured that (if all goes well :) the players will not know what to
think of insect spirits...


Gurth@******.nl - Gurth@***.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
What do I do next?
Geek Code v2.1: GS/AT/! -d+ H s:- !g p?(3) !au a>? w+(+++) v*(---) C+(++) U
P? !L !3 E? N++ K- W+ -po+(po) Y+ t(+) 5 !j R+(++)>+++$ tv+(++) b+@ D+(++)
B? e+ u+@ h! f--(?) !r(--)(*) n---->!n y? Unofficial Shadowrun Guru :)
Message no. 14
From: Daniel Kollmer <dkollmer@**.OR.AT>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 16:16:21 +0200
>> The difference between insects and shadowrunners ? These kill sometimes for
>> pleasure... Therefore my question is
>> "WHO IS EVIL ?"
>
> Who cares, its either us or them so as far as I am concerned they*are*evil*
>and the more evil we think they are, the easier it will be to shoot the
fragging
>fleshforms. Its sort of mental doping..
>
Evil or not,if a fleshform is after you,killing it will save your butt,and
as I said killing is a means of survival in the insect's world,so they wont
bear you a grudge
HAVE A GOOD DAY-HAVE A BETTER TIME
[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]

E.lectron P.owered S.ound P.erformance
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Message no. 15
From: Joan Sheehan <shee4766@******.IDBSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?
Date: Thu, 18 May 1995 06:16:22 +0200
In article <199505171156.AA27136@***.xs4all.nl> Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
writes:
>Date: Wed, 17 May 1995 13:56:06 +0200
>Reply-To: Discussion of the Fantasy game ShadowRun
<SHADOWRN@*****.nic.SURFnet.nl>
>From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
>Subject: Re: Cannon fodder critters?

>>>Wanna bet? I have this feeling I know a few Mantis spirits who will be very
>>>willing to discuss why they should or shouldn't do what the runners want
>>>to... for some kind of counter-service, of course :)
>>
>>Really?...I take it this conversation happened after the possession....I doubt
>>it..............Mamoulian

>The conversation hasn't taken place yet, as I haven't played SR in about 1
>1/2 weeks (stupid exams -- someone else's, not mine :). As people might
>recall, the weekend before last I asked for ideas on an adventure designed
>to get my players into Chicago before the bug explosion happens. As such,
>they're now hunting after a group of mantis spirits without knowing it. And
>I for one don't want to portray them as the ants the PCs have already run
>into some time ago; I don't exactly know how I'm going to do this yet, but
>rest assured that (if all goes well :) the players will not know what to
>think of insect spirits...

Sounds kinda like the situation in "Burning Bright"?......my point was prior
to the posession you could be running with a insect and they could be your
best bud, throw there life down for you and all that...but after the
possession takes place I doubt you would be having really great rapport.....:(
Mamoulian

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