Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 07:18:29 -0600
Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
/
/ > Capoeira is a fascinating artform ...
/
/ Capoeira is an excellent skill to have in SR, by the way, specially
/ if you live in North America where almost no one knows about it.

Not true anymore. Seseme Street has an educational bit on Capoeira
that they slip in from time to time (because the dancing appeals to
kids). And Tekken 3 for Playstation has a Capoeira character (and
Tekken 3 is selling like gangbusters).

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
Message no. 2
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:39:00 -0400
> / > Capoeira is a fascinating artform ...
> /
> / Capoeira is an excellent skill to have in SR, by the way,
> specially
> / if you live in North America where almost no one knows about it.
>
> Not true anymore. Seseme Street has an educational bit on Capoeira
> that they slip in from time to time (because the dancing appeals to
> kids). And Tekken 3 for Playstation has a Capoeira character (and
> Tekken 3 is selling like gangbusters).
>
Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
"Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie if
you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).
Message no. 3
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:09:52 -0700
> Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
>practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
>"Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie if
>you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
>see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).

It's easy to spot capoeira. They tend to go to the ground in role (ro-lay),
or throw meia lua de compasso (a sort of spin kick with one hand to the
ground). Also, the movements of the art are dynamic and distinctive: the
fighting "stance" is the ginga, basically a triangular stance sideways
shuffle. Most kicks are arcing with exception of bencao (side kick) and
various handstand kicks.

Last time I watched Wesley Snipes he was okay but not that good, perhaps
he's improved.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 4
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 12:14:45 -0500
> Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
> practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
> "Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie if
> you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
> see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).

The review I read (specifically on martial arts in upcoming/current movies),
said that Wes was actually quite good at it. (But then I'll find out this
weekend when I watch it).

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 5
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 14:59:17 -0700
>Really? There's quite a few schools up here right now...indeed, I've
>trained in it for a bit. Not quite competent, but I've learned a *few*
>moves... Admittedly, the style I'm learning isn't classical Capoeira, but
>Capoeira Regional do Brasil. I can't recall the exact differences at the
>moment, alas.

Regional is a style founded by Mestre Bimba (M. Machado) in the early
1920's. It was a response to the sloppy street capoeira that he saw at the
time, and includes some the of knife-fighting that his father taught.
Regional has certain forms (Cintura de despreza) and sequences (Bimba's ,
and is in general, acrobatic, flashy, and combatative. Lot's of spin kicks
and jump kicks.

Angola, an older style, is done a bit slower, more fluidly, and keeps lower
to the ground, in general. They're also quite a bit sneakier ... ;-) Lot's
of throws and sweeps ...

>Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
>Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
>Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
>Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 6
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:34:53 -0700
Adam Getchell wrote:
>

> It's easy to spot capoeira. They tend to go to the ground in role (ro-lay),
> or throw meia lua de compasso (a sort of spin kick with one hand to the
> ground). Also, the movements of the art are dynamic and distinctive: the
> fighting "stance" is the ginga, basically a triangular stance sideways
> shuffle. Most kicks are arcing with exception of bencao (side kick) and
> various handstand kicks.

They'll never stop moving in a fight, always shuffling, spinning, ducking
or kicking.
Like Adam says, *very* distinctive.

> Last time I watched Wesley Snipes he was okay but not that good, perhaps
> he's improved.
>
> --Adam
>
> acgetchell@*******.edu
> "Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 7
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:53:46 -0700
>> Something about Capoeira that isn't necessarily true of the
>> other martial arts I've practiced is that they're a little bit sneaky
>> ... ;-)

>Only a little?

Okay, a lot. ;-)

>Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
>Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
>Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
>Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 8
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:22:24 -0300
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Ubiratan P. Alberton wrote:
> /
> / > Capoeira is a fascinating artform ...
> /
> / Capoeira is an excellent skill to have in SR, by the way, specially
> / if you live in North America where almost no one knows about it.
>
> Not true anymore. Seseme Street has an educational bit on Capoeira
> that they slip in from time to time (because the dancing appeals to
> kids). And Tekken 3 for Playstation has a Capoeira character (and
> Tekken 3 is selling like gangbusters).

I said in SR... With the feudal and xenphobic nature of things there,
I doubt anyone knows much about it... Have you ever seen Capoeira at
full fighting speed? It's amazing.

Bira
Message no. 9
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:28:03 -0300
Marizhavashti Kali wrote:
>
> Adam Getchell wrote:
> >
>
> > It's easy to spot capoeira. They tend to go to the ground in role (ro-lay),
> > or throw meia lua de compasso (a sort of spin kick with one hand to the
> > ground). Also, the movements of the art are dynamic and distinctive: the
> > fighting "stance" is the ginga, basically a triangular stance sideways
> > shuffle. Most kicks are arcing with exception of bencao (side kick) and
> > various handstand kicks.
>
> They'll never stop moving in a fight, always shuffling, spinning, ducking
> or kicking.
> Like Adam says, *very* distinctive.
>

Ganger: "An' watcha gonna do, twit? Dance 'till I die?"

Man: "That's it."

:)

Bira
Message no. 10
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:23:13 -0300
bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
>

> Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
> practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
> "Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie if
> you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
> see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).


I'll remember that when I see the movie... Should be interesting :) .

Bira
Message no. 11
From: XaOs <xaos@*****.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:10:08 -0500
> > Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
> > practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
> > "Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie
if
> > you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
> > see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).
>
>
> I'll remember that when I see the movie... Should be interesting :) .

Just got back from seeing it. Very little, if any Capoeria. (Maybe one or
two moves that my untrained eye would describe as being distinctively, or
derived from capoeria).

But, it was a good action movie with good special effects. (Soundtrack was
good too). I'd say that gamers will find more associations with Vampire The
Masquerade than with Shadowrun. There were a few plot holes, but no real
killers.

-XaOs-
xaos@*****.net
Message no. 12
From: Marizhavashti Kali <xenya@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 03:42:18 -0700
XaOs wrote:

> Just got back from seeing it. Very little, if any Capoeria. (Maybe one or
> two moves that my untrained eye would describe as being distinctively, or
> derived from capoeria).

More than one or two moves... I do have to say that he did much better in
the fights when he used Capoeira than when he just punched things. The
blades worked well, but that's expected.

I think I only saw him ginga once, which was kind of odd. I *did* see
multiple Capoeira kicks and more than a few blocks and dodges.

> But, it was a good action movie with good special effects. (Soundtrack was
> good too). I'd say that gamers will find more associations with Vampire The
> Masquerade than with Shadowrun. There were a few plot holes, but no real
> killers.

I dunno. His stockpile of weapons hit more SRun like, but the plot and
background were indeed WoD-like.

> -XaOs-
> xaos@*****.net

--
Deird'Re M. Brooks |xenya@********.com | cam#9309026
Lydia Morales (Brujah)|"But Brain, where are we going to find a four
Madelynne (Malkavian) | armed goddess of destruction at THIS hour?"
Sif Stormbringer (Get)|"Shut up, Pinky, or I'll kill you."
Message no. 13
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:21:45 -0400
> > Just got back from seeing it. Very little, if any Capoeria. (Maybe
> one or
> > two moves that my untrained eye would describe as being
> distinctively, or
> > derived from capoeria).
>
> More than one or two moves... I do have to say that he did much better
> in
> the fights when he used Capoeira than when he just punched things. The
> blades worked well, but that's expected.
>
I saw quite a few. Granted I'm not a "trained eye" by
any means but from the pic I'f seen, he did some stuff. Several of the
scenes used spin kicks and even a couple of handstands with kicks built
in.

> I dunno. His stockpile of weapons hit more SRun like, but the plot and
> background were indeed WoD-like.
>
I never claimed the movie had anything at all to do with
SR. I was just mentioning it in the context of the Capoeria thread.
Message no. 14
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:41:40 -0700
> I said in SR... With the feudal and xenphobic nature of things there,
>I doubt anyone knows much about it... Have you ever seen Capoeira at
>full fighting speed? It's amazing.

Yes, up close and in person. Also on video tape. If I were to fight a
capoeirista and not use capoeira, I'd have to say attack them first, don't
let them get going. Once they get going it's going to be really hard to hit
or evade their attacks (coming at so many weird angles).

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 15
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:44:26 -0700
>bryan.covington@****.COM wrote:
>>
>
>> Also I just found out yesterday that Wesley Snipes
>> practices Capoeria. Its in his bio on the site for the new movie
>> "Blade". While I doubt he do a bunch of all out Capoeria in the movie
if
>> you know what to look for you could probably see it (same way you can
>> see Aikido in Steven Segal's moves if you look for it).

Snipes used a handstand kick in the move and a couple of armadas (spin
crescents). Not exceptionally good, but not bad. I prefer using "spin hook"
type kicks (meia lua de compasso) as using the hip adds much more power to
the kick than simple rotation.

> Bira

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 16
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 12:48:05 -0500
>Snipes used a handstand kick in the move and a couple of armadas (spin
>crescents). Not exceptionally good, but not bad. I prefer using "spin
hook"
>type kicks (meia lua de compasso) as using the hip adds much more power
to
>the kick than simple rotation.

It says he's a student of capoeira; what else does he study? I saw this
martial arts special on TNT the other night (I'm an award-show junkie;
sue me <g>); at the end, he was awarded a fifth-degree black belt, but I
don't know enough to know from watching what he practices. I didn't
realize that he did as many of his own stunts and fights as he did.

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 17
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:57:11 -0400
> >Snipes used a handstand kick in the move and a couple of armadas
> (spin
> >crescents). Not exceptionally good, but not bad. I prefer using "spin
> hook"
> >type kicks (meia lua de compasso) as using the hip adds much more
> power
> to
> >the kick than simple rotation.
>
> It says he's a student of capoeira; what else does he study? I saw
> this
> martial arts special on TNT the other night (I'm an award-show junkie;
> sue me <g>); at the end, he was awarded a fifth-degree black belt, but
> I
> don't know enough to know from watching what he practices. I didn't
> realize that he did as many of his own stunts and fights as he did.
>
From someone's Wesley Snipes fan page...

"As a child he was fascinated with martial arts and today he is
an expert in capoeira , an African-Brazilian fighting technique and also
studies shotokai karate and escrima, a filipino stick fighting martial
art. For his film Blade, he studied kendo, which is Japanese fencing."

I'm not sure about spelling or authenticity but thats
all I could find.
Message no. 18
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:48:57 -0700
>>Snipes used a handstand kick in the move and a couple of armadas (spin
>>crescents). Not exceptionally good, but not bad. I prefer using "spin
>hook"
>>type kicks (meia lua de compasso) as using the hip adds much more power
>to
>>the kick than simple rotation.
>
>It says he's a student of capoeira; what else does he study? I saw this
>martial arts special on TNT the other night (I'm an award-show junkie;
>sue me <g>); at the end, he was awarded a fifth-degree black belt, but I
>don't know enough to know from watching what he practices. I didn't
>realize that he did as many of his own stunts and fights as he did.

If he was awarded a fifth dan it was honorary. Seagal is a sixth, and
pretty legitamate. In most systems fifth dan would be considered "master".
What system was the award made in? From his general style it looks like
perhaps Jeet Kun Do ... if it hasn't been modified for film (a lot of
martial arts styles that don't have spin hook kicks end up doing them when
in Hollywood ... as a general rule kicks look good in cinematography, locks
and throws don't). It couldn't have been JKD that the award was made in, as
that is a Chinese system and they don't have dans (those are Japanese and
Korean), and clearly it wouldn't have been Capoeira.

Capoeira, of course, does not have this sort of ranking system, although
they do have cords instead of belts. To be considered a mestre you would
have studied and been active in Capoeira for at least 20 years.


>(>) Texas 2-Step

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 19
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:08:59 -0700
> From someone's Wesley Snipes fan page...
>
> "As a child he was fascinated with martial arts and today he is
>an expert in capoeira , an African-Brazilian fighting technique and also
>studies shotokai karate and escrima, a filipino stick fighting martial
>art. For his film Blade, he studied kendo, which is Japanese fencing."

Ah, the stick fighting would explain the punching and trapping. *Shotokan*
karate is a traditional style more popular abroad than in Japan (where
Kyukshinkai is the most popular style ... founded by Korean Mas Oyama). And
of course, study of kendo is mandatory if you're going to handle a katana
on film.

Still, from the quality of his motion, he's nowhere near an expert. I've
seen more athletic capoeira in local rodas. The other martial artist he
fought (I don't remember her name) was a Taekwondo 2nd dan.

Not really trying to slam Wesley Snipes, but I think it's a Hollywood
publishing phenomena that any actor that studies the least little bit of
martial arts is an "expert" or master. For further edification on this
topic I direct your attention to several hundred megabytes of flamage on
rec.martial-arts.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 20
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:59:57 -0500
At 01:48 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>It couldn't have been JKD that the award was made in, as
>that is a Chinese system and they don't have dans

JKD is not a Chinese system. It is an American system, developed by an
American, in America which draws upon many styles. Jun Fan Kung Fu (Bruce
Lee's "style" of JKD) draws heavily upon many Chinese systems, but also on
several Western arts (boxing and fencing come to mind)

And, JKD does use dans. Dan Insanto :)


Mike Broadwater
Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/
Message no. 21
From: Michael Broadwater <neon@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:01:40 -0500
At 02:08 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>And
>of course, study of kendo is mandatory if you're going to handle a katana
>on film.

Blade didn't use a katana. If you looked, it was a straight bladed sword
with a rounded tip. Most likely a Tai Chi Sword.


Mike Broadwater
Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/
Message no. 22
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:07:16 -0700
>And, JKD does use dans. Dan Insanto :)

Based off Wing Chun. Sure it's eclectic but it has roots in Wing Chun as
well as Inosanto's escrima ... I was sort of looking at the "base style".
Bruce Lee claimed to have looked at Boxing, Aikido, Fencing, TKD, Judo etc.
but as he is long gone we cannot truly say what the roots were, except that
it's changing, and of course, Bruce Lee was highly reluctant to name his
system at all to avoid the problems of the "classical mess".

At any rate, the point I made was that W. Snipe could not be a 5th dan in
JKD. I suppose it's possible that he was awarded it in Shotokan, as that is
the only style of those listed that would award such a rank. It still
appears to be purely honorary, much like Elvis' 8th dan...


>Mike Broadwater
>Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
>http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 23
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:13:45 -0700
>At 02:08 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>Blade didn't use a katana. If you looked, it was a straight bladed sword
>with a rounded tip. Most likely a Tai Chi Sword.

It was kept in a classic katana sheath. A Tai Chi sword would have a willow
point and, likely, tassles on the pommel. Also, one-handed, not two. Blade
definitely used his sword two handed, kendo style.

>Mike Broadwater
>Member of the Blackhand, White Wolf's Official Demo Team
>http://www.olemiss.edu/~neon/

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 24
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:51:01 EDT
In a message dated 8/24/98 9:24:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
bryan.covington@****.COM writes:

> > > Just got back from seeing it. Very little, if any Capoeria. (Maybe
> > one or
> > > two moves that my untrained eye would describe as being
> > distinctively, or
> > > derived from capoeria).
> >
> > More than one or two moves... I do have to say that he did much better
> > in
> > the fights when he used Capoeira than when he just punched things. The
> > blades worked well, but that's expected.
> >
> I saw quite a few. Granted I'm not a "trained eye" by
> any means but from the pic I'f seen, he did some stuff. Several of the
> scenes used spin kicks and even a couple of handstands with kicks built
> in.
>
> > I dunno. His stockpile of weapons hit more SRun like, but the plot and
> > background were indeed WoD-like.
> >
> I never claimed the movie had anything at all to do with
> SR. I was just mentioning it in the context of the Capoeria thread.
>

Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial artist
takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them defeat
themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
knocking the target out.

What do you guys think?

What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages each
style would get, in melee combat?

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 25
From: "kurt.bath" <kurt.bath@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 02:15:19 +0100
>Ah, the stick fighting would explain the punching and trapping. *Shotokan*
>karate is a traditional style more popular abroad than in Japan (where
>Kyukshinkai is the most popular style ... founded by Korean Mas Oyama). And
>of course, study of kendo is mandatory if you're going to handle a katana
>on film.
>
Kendo is quite as much use as it is made out to be. I have done both Kendo
and aiaido (SP?) in the past and have possessed live swords for some 10
years and found that Aiaido is more of a combat effective martial art than
Kendo. Even though kendo regularily has tournaments.

Snip Wesley snipes --<
>Still, from the quality of his motion, he's nowhere near an expert. I've
>seen more athletic capoeira in local rodas.

I agree with this, his ability seems more like those of a trained actor than
any one who has studied a martial art to tournament level.
Message no. 26
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@*******.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:14:37 -0700
>Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
>basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial artist
>takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
>Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them defeat
>themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
>knocking the target out.
>
>What do you guys think?

Not sure about that, some of this depends on the fighter. How would you
classify Hapkido? Aikido?

Even Taekwondo can be offensive, defensive, or subdual by your definitions
above, depending upon tactics. For example, use footwork to move away from
their attacks (defensive). Then use a round-house double roundhouse jumping
roundhouse counterattack (offensive). Then finish with spin hook to the
head (subdual) to KO them ... The same could be said for almost any
striking art.

Moving onto Judo and/or grappling. (No grappling rules in SR3! That's okay,
the rules were somewhat broken). Same comments as above, just substitute
foot techniques (ashi-waza) for defense to favorite throw on offense to
ne-waza (groundwork) for finish.

>What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages each
>style would get, in melee combat?

Perhaps breaking it out by general movements, the way other RPGs dealing
with martial arts have done? Not that they've done a particularly good job
either.

>-Herc
>------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

--Adam

acgetchell@*******.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
Message no. 27
From: Patrick Goodman <remo@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:39:06 -0500
>>I saw this martial arts special on TNT the other night...
>>at the end, he was awarded a fifth-degree black belt, but I
>>don't know enough to know from watching what he practices.
>
>If he was awarded a fifth dan it was honorary. Seagal is a sixth, and
>pretty legitamate. In most systems fifth dan would be considered "master".
>What system was the award made in?

I have no idea; that's one of the reasons I was asking. They didn't say, or
if they did, it was drowned in applause (Snipes produced the special, and
they were generally appreciative of the fact that he was bringing so many
masters from different systems and styles into the same room without there
having to be some big showdown. It was kind of a kick to see Ernie Reyes
Sr. and Ernie Reyes Jr. together on the same stage).

---
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 28
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:12:17 EDT
In a message dated 8/24/98 7:14:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:

> >Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
> >basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial
> artist
> >takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
> >Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them
> defeat
> >themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
> >knocking the target out.
> >
> >What do you guys think?
>
> Not sure about that, some of this depends on the fighter. How would you
> classify Hapkido? Aikido?

Actually, I was not, I was considering more for the game that a person could
describe their martial arts form in terms of roleplay, but when it comes down
to game mechanics the martial art forms break down into three basic types, the
offensive, defensive, and subdual.

I am also not trying to bog down SR with rules concerning individual martial
art forms either, it would make SR as complicated as some of the other gaming
systems out there now in terms of what skills are out there.

I'm just trying to keep things simple.

What I am trying to do with the three different styles is see if there are any
types of advantages and disadvantages that each style might have when someone
is involved in unarmed melee combat.

> Even Taekwondo can be offensive, defensive, or subdual by your definitions
> above, depending upon tactics. For example, use footwork to move away from
> their attacks (defensive). Then use a round-house double roundhouse jumping
> roundhouse counterattack (offensive). Then finish with spin hook to the
> head (subdual) to KO them ... The same could be said for almost any
> striking art.
>
> Moving onto Judo and/or grappling. (No grappling rules in SR3! That's okay,
> the rules were somewhat broken). Same comments as above, just substitute
> foot techniques (ashi-waza) for defense to favorite throw on offense to
> ne-waza (groundwork) for finish.
>
> >What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages
> each
> >style would get, in melee combat?
>
> Perhaps breaking it out by general movements, the way other RPGs dealing
> with martial arts have done? Not that they've done a particularly good job
> either.
>
I understand the general movements (like having Kicking as a Specialization),
but what I want is something to generalize the fighting style of a martial
artist. Someone who is more offensive minded would have a specialization in
Offensive Style. Someone who wants defense focuses in on the Defensive style.
Someone who only wants to incapacitate, but not kill, someone would have a
Subdual style.

The particulars of the martial arts style, like Tae Kwon Do, would be left
more in the arena of roleplaying.

-Herc (who is beginning to repeat himself quite often now)
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 29
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:16:23 -0400
At 07:51 PM 8/24/98 EDT, you wrote:

>Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
>basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial artist
>takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
>Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them defeat
>themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
>knocking the target out.

First of all, I would say that those styles have much more to do with the
individual's own fighting style than that of the martial art itself. Some
people just like to bring it on, others wait for it to be brought to them.

Second, I don't really see a Subdual category, only Offensive and Defensive.

>What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages each
>style would get, in melee combat?

Keeping as close to SR3 canon as possible, I would go with something like
getting an extra die added to either your attack or defense.

Declare a combat mode or stance at the beginning of the Combat Turn.
Offensive fighters get an extra die to all attacks they make, but subtract
a die to counters they make. Defensive fighters would do the opposite.
And Neutral fighters would duke it out as normal.

This prevents things from getting out of hand one way or another, and
reflects the attitude behind the fist.

Simple, relatively reflective of unarmed combat from at least my own boxing
perspective, and is balanced such that it can't get out of hand.

At least it's a thought.

Erik J.
Message no. 30
From: "M. Sean Martinez" <ElBandit@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:44:32 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/98 12:16:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, erikj@****.COM
writes:

> Keeping as close to SR3 canon as possible, I would go with something like
> getting an extra die added to either your attack or defense.

That is very close to the martial arts rules I have created that hopefully
will either showup on my web page or in a FASA product (provided I can get
them to accept my proposal)

-Bandit
Message no. 31
From: Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 07:14:41 EDT
In a message dated 8/24/98 11:16:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
erikj@****.COM writes:

> >Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
> >basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial
> artist
> >takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
> >Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them
> defeat
> >themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
> >knocking the target out.
>
> First of all, I would say that those styles have much more to do with the
> individual's own fighting style than that of the martial art itself. Some
> people just like to bring it on, others wait for it to be brought to them.

I agree completely, but I am looking at the three styles being Specializations
under the Martial Arts skill. As for what martial art they are practicing, I
leave that up to the player for roleplay purposes.

> Second, I don't really see a Subdual category, only Offensive and
Defensive.

You can still kill someone with a Defensive Style, a Subdual Style means the
person has practiced either on striking spots which won't kill, but will
incapacitate, or they have learned to instinctively pull punches yet still
remain effective fighters.

> >What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages
> each
> >style would get, in melee combat?
>
> Keeping as close to SR3 canon as possible, I would go with something like
> getting an extra die added to either your attack or defense.

Instead of extra dice, I was thinking of the following.

An Offensive Style Martial Artist receives a +1 to Reach. This reflects the
fact that the fighter is placing an emphasis on beating the frag out of the
target and not so much on their own defense. They only gain this bonus on
their Initiative passes.

A Defensive Style Martial Artist would gain a +1 Reach when they are defending
themselves from an incoming attack. As they are placing an emphasis on
defending themselves and waiting for an opening to strike back at an opponent
when they make a mistake. They only gain this bonus on their Initiative
passes.

For the Martial Artist with Subdual Combat, they have something different.
For every net success they achieve on their opponent, the opponent's Quickness
is reduced by 1. Eventually the opponent will not be able to move, and
thereby has been sundued.

> Declare a combat mode or stance at the beginning of the Combat Turn.
> Offensive fighters get an extra die to all attacks they make, but subtract
> a die to counters they make. Defensive fighters would do the opposite.
> And Neutral fighters would duke it out as normal.
>
> This prevents things from getting out of hand one way or another, and
> reflects the attitude behind the fist.
>
> Simple, relatively reflective of unarmed combat from at least my own boxing
> perspective, and is balanced such that it can't get out of hand.
>
> At least it's a thought.
>
You probably could use the same styles with Boxing also, and for that matter,
Wrestling.

-Herc
------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.
Message no. 32
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 06:30:33 -0500
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:12:17 EDT Mike Bobroff <Airwasp@***.COM> writes:
>In a message dated 8/24/98 7:14:01 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
>acgetchell@*******.EDU writes:
>> >Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there
are
>> >basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial

>> >artist
>> >takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as
possible. A
>> >Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting
them
>> >defeat
>> >themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning
or
>> >knocking the target out.
>> >
>> >What do you guys think?

>> Not sure about that, some of this depends on the fighter. How would
you
>> classify Hapkido? Aikido?

>Actually, I was not, I was considering more for the game that a person
could
>describe their martial arts form in terms of roleplay, but when it comes
down
>to game mechanics the martial art forms break down into three basic
types, the
>offensive, defensive, and subdual.
>
>I am also not trying to bog down SR with rules concerning individual
martial
>art forms either, it would make SR as complicated as some of the other
gaming
>systems out there now in terms of what skills are out there.
>
>I'm just trying to keep things simple.
>
>What I am trying to do with the three different styles is see if there
are any
>types of advantages and disadvantages that each style might have when
someone
>is involved in unarmed melee combat.
<SNIP>
>The particulars of the martial arts style, like Tae Kwon Do, would be
left
>more in the arena of roleplaying.
>
>-Herc (who is beginning to repeat himself quite often now)
>------ The Best Mechanic you can ever have.

How about this for oversimplification:
A concentration (or specializion in SR3) in MA Style is considered one
less than the level bought. However, the character gains the ability to
utilize the following 'Stances" (more like combat modes listed as "name:
effect [example rating bought/attack rating/counterattack rating
used{maximum combat pool usable}]):

Evasive: +4 dice (up to skill rating) for counterattacking but no damage
can result [bought rating 4/3/6 {3/3}]

Defensive: as Evasive except the skill is considered increased and the
the defended attack is never considered a clean miss. [bought 4/3/6
{3/6}]

Neutral: Skill is considered 1 level higher than normal in all
circumstances. [bought rating 4/4/4 {4/4}]

Offensive: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for attacks. [bought 4/5/3
{5/3}]

Reactionary: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for counterattacks.
[bought 4/3/5 {3/5}]

Characters may change stances as a free action on their combat phase.

Okay, this may seem really bizzare but what do you think?

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 33
From: David Foster <fixer@*******.TLH.FL.US>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:21:05 -0400
On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Mike Bobroff wrote:

->In a message dated 8/24/98 9:24:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
->bryan.covington@****.COM writes:
->
<lots deleted about martial arts>
->Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
->basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial artist
->takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
->Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them defeat
->themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
->knocking the target out.
->
->What do you guys think?

I'd like to insert maneuvering as a possibility. I studied very
little martial arts or boxing but have a lot of street fighting experience
and there were times where the only reason I won was because I knew where
to put my feet and when to move the rest of me. It's not really a
defensive structure as you're trying to get into a better position to
attack.
In addition, you might want to throw in weapon-centered martial
arts forms (such as kendo).

->What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages each
->style would get, in melee combat?

Specializing would result in additional dice for those actions, I
suppose.
What skills got broken up in SR3? I know Firearms did but did ALL
the combat skills (or most of them) get broken up into their
concentrations? If so, which ones?

Fixer --------------} The easy I do before breakfast,
the difficult I do all day long,
the impossible only during the week,
and miracles performed on an as-needed basis....

Now tell me, what was your problem?
Message no. 34
From: bryan.covington@****.COM
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:07:41 -0400
> Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
> basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial
> artist
> takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible.
> A
> Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them
> defeat
> themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning
> or
> knocking the target out.
>
Despite the general grumbling I've heard, nearly every
martial art I've heard spoken about (demos and talking with
practitioners) is usually categorized in one way or another. Tae Kwon Do
is usually described as a very offensive kicking art. This isn't saying
there are no punches or blocks in the style, just that the MAIN focus is
on attack, and usually with kicks. Same with Aikido. It is most commonly
described as a defensive art using throws. There are other moves but
this is the primary focus.
This seems simple enough to use despite not being wholly
accurate. If we outline every style in detail its gonna end up being as
bad as the example on another thread where everyone had to pick ammo
based on caliber, jacket type, weight and so on.
Despite the frankly amazing amount of martial artists we
have on the list most of the SR playing world is not going to know or
care enough to implement rules detailed to the point that they slow down
the game. This is mostly for color and to illustrate that someone with
martial arts training is an all around better fighter than someone with
none.
Message no. 35
From: Erik Jameson <erikj@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:14:05 -0400
At 07:14 AM 8/25/98 EDT, you wrote:

>> Second, I don't really see a Subdual category, only Offensive and
>Defensive.
>
>You can still kill someone with a Defensive Style, a Subdual Style means the
>person has practiced either on striking spots which won't kill, but will
>incapacitate, or they have learned to instinctively pull punches yet still
>remain effective fighters.

But in order to Subdue someone, you either have to take an Offensive or
Defensive stance. At least I think so.

>> Keeping as close to SR3 canon as possible, I would go with something like
>> getting an extra die added to either your attack or defense.
>
>Instead of extra dice, I was thinking of the following.
><snipped Reach Modifiers for Styles>

I don't like that personally. Dropping a Target Number can have dramatic
affects. Dropping a 4 to a 3 when you only have a couple of dice to roll
doesn't mean that much. But 6, 10 or more dice, an additional reach
modifier can have a major impact.

I'd rather keep things very simple and design it so that it is very
difficult to abuse or to get out of hand. Hence the concept of a single
extra die.

But mucking about with Target Numbers can have all sorts of unintended
impacts.

Erik J.
Message no. 36
From: K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:26:23 EDT
In a message dated 8/25/1998 6:35:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
dghost@****.COM writes:

> How about this for oversimplification:
> A concentration (or specializion in SR3) in MA Style is considered one
> less than the level bought. However, the character gains the ability to
> utilize the following 'Stances" (more like combat modes listed as "name:
> effect [example rating bought/attack rating/counterattack rating
> used{maximum combat pool usable}]):

Interesting thought.

> Evasive: +4 dice (up to skill rating) for counterattacking but no damage
> can result [bought rating 4/3/6 {3/3}]
>
> Defensive: as Evasive except the skill is considered increased and the
> the defended attack is never considered a clean miss. [bought 4/3/6
> {3/6}]
>
> Neutral: Skill is considered 1 level higher than normal in all
> circumstances. [bought rating 4/4/4 {4/4}]
>
> Offensive: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for attacks. [bought 4/5/3
> {5/3}]
>
> Reactionary: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for counterattacks.
> [bought 4/3/5 {3/5}]
>
> Characters may change stances as a free action on their combat phase.
>
> Okay, this may seem really bizzare but what do you think?

Alfredo, I have to admit, that this is not entirely too bad, at least not at a
first glance. The exact impact on mechanics I am uncertain of, but it does
sound/read as fair to decent at first glance.

Not Bad :)

-K
Message no. 37
From: Steve Collins <einan@*********.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:47:07 -0400
>>Going onto a slighlty more SR topic, would you guys say that there are
>>basically three styles of Martial Arts? Offensive, where the martial artist
>>takes the offensive and get rid of their opponent as fast as possible. A
>>Defensive style which predicates tiring your opponent and letting them defeat
>>themselves. And a third, Subdual, in which the objective is stunning or
>>knocking the target out.
>>
>>What do you guys think?
>
>Not sure about that, some of this depends on the fighter. How would you
>classify Hapkido? Aikido?
>
>Even Taekwondo can be offensive, defensive, or subdual by your definitions
>above, depending upon tactics. For example, use footwork to move away from
>their attacks (defensive). Then use a round-house double roundhouse jumping
>roundhouse counterattack (offensive). Then finish with spin hook to the
>head (subdual) to KO them ... The same could be said for almost any
>striking art.
>
>Moving onto Judo and/or grappling. (No grappling rules in SR3! That's okay,
>the rules were somewhat broken). Same comments as above, just substitute
>foot techniques (ashi-waza) for defense to favorite throw on offense to
>ne-waza (groundwork) for finish.
>
>>What would be perhaps some of the technical advantages and disadvantages each
>>style would get, in melee combat?
>
>Perhaps breaking it out by general movements, the way other RPGs dealing
>with martial arts have done? Not that they've done a particularly good job
>either.
>

That would get cumbersome ruleswise and look at the volume of posts
generated here disagreeing on exaticly what constitutes a style. Why not
just eliminate "moves and styles" from the game mechanics and just have
specializations for attack, counterattack, and defense. Leave it up to
the player to color in the specific moves he uses in combat as a
roleplaying hook, let him call his style whatever he wants, the game
mechanics are determined by his skill in each specialization. For example
as you mentioned Tae Kwon Doe can use maneuvers that would fall into any
of the categories. Let the player decide which ones he specializes in.
This way a skill 5 boxer would beat the crap out of a skill 3 Akido
specialist. So the which style is better argument is avoided as well all
that matters is skill level (a concept discussed in the skill vs speed
thread of a few days ago). We have a house rule here like this and it
works well, it is no more complex than the listed system and solves many
of these problems (as well as the speed vs skill debate). If anyone is
interested I'll post it.

Steve
Message no. 38
From: Dick van de Bunt <157100db@*******.EUR.NL>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:11:56 +0200
Adam Getchell wrote:

>>At 02:08 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>>Blade didn't use a katana. If you looked, it was a straight bladed sword
>>with a rounded tip. Most likely a Tai Chi Sword.
>
>It was kept in a classic katana sheath. A Tai Chi sword would have a willow
>point and, likely, tassles on the pommel. Also, one-handed, not two. Blade
>definitely used his sword two handed, kendo style.
>
>>Mike Broadwater

If the sword was straight or nearly so and used two-handed it
might have been a No-daichi, it can be recognized by the minimal
round or octagonal guard.

Just my two cp.


(Yeah cp. Sorry 'bout that, but I nearly got killed by a samurai today.
I broke his katana, he got mad at me, drew his wakizashi, and after two
swipes I was on the ground coughing blood. And this on my first night
out!! I hate people carrying more than one sword!)



Dick van de Bunt
157100db@*******.eur.nl
------------------------------------------------------
Mos Eisley Spaceport. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum of
villainy. We must be cautious.
-- Obi-Wan Kenobi

I'm ready for anything.
-- Luke Skywalker
Message no. 39
From: Duncan McNeill-Burton <dmcneill@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:05:07 -0400
Dick van de Bunt didst sayeth:

>Adam Getchell wrote:
>>It was kept in a classic katana sheath. A Tai Chi sword would have a
willow
>>point and, likely, tassles on the pommel. Also, one-handed, not two. Blade
>>definitely used his sword two handed, kendo style.
>>
>>>Mike Broadwater
>
>If the sword was straight or nearly so and used two-handed it
>might have been a No-daichi, it can be recognized by the minimal
>round or octagonal guard.


I thought no-Daiichi were also about five feet long and likened to Japanese
Claymores...but I was never really an Asian sword nut. I prefer a nice
Asagai...or a shotgun.

Later-

Duncan McNeill-Burton
-Tech Priest in Training
-Violent Felon for Hire
-Pipe-wielding Sociopath for Fun
http://attila.stevens-tech.edu/~dmcneill
"Your eyes shiver and you grit your teeth,
You've sold you soul now cold blood's how you get relief."
-Ice-T, The Syndicate
Message no. 40
From: Matt T Ork <steelclaw@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:21:20 -0400
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:05:07 -0400 Duncan McNeill-Burton
<dmcneill@************.EDU> writes:

>I thought no-Daiichi were also about five feet long and likened to
Japanese
>Claymores...but I was never really an Asian sword nut. I prefer a nice
>Asagai...or a shotgun.

They are. No-Daichi are huge things. Five to six feet long.

My PC favors axes, personally. Nothing like the sight of an ork
screaming bloody murder and charging while waving a mono-axe to get
someone's attention. Or make them wet their pants. Both, usually.

-Matt, Homo Sapiens Robustus
***********************************
"Ah...excuse me sir...you're leaking...blood, yes, but something else,
too..."

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 41
From: Tarek Okail <Tarek_Okail@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:48:36 -0400
Matt--

>My PC favors axes, personally. Nothing like the sight of an ork
>screaming bloody murder and charging while waving a mono-axe to get
>someone's attention. Or make them wet their pants. Both, usually.

Neil the Ork Barbarian Lives!

Shadowmage
Message no. 42
From: Nexx <nexx@********.NET>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:47:56 -0500
----------
> From: Dick van de Bunt <157100db@*******.EUR.NL>

> Just my two cp.
>
> (Yeah cp. Sorry 'bout that, but I nearly got killed by a samurai today.
> I broke his katana, he got mad at me, drew his wakizashi, and after two
> swipes I was on the ground coughing blood. And this on my first night
> out!! I hate people carrying more than one sword!)

I think I speak for everyone when I say: WHAT THE FUCK?

***************
Rev. Mark Hall, Bard to the Lady Mari
aka Pope Nexx Many-Scars
"The Kelti said of themselves that they did not lie, but they sometimes
took a very long way around in getting to the truth, with frequent stops
at interesting spots along the way."
-Morgan Llywelyn "The Horse Goddess"
Message no. 43
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 18:03:56 -0500
On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 02:11:56 +0200 Dick van de Bunt
<157100db@*******.EUR.NL> writes:
>Adam Getchell wrote:
>> >At 02:08 PM 8/24/98 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>> >Blade didn't use a katana. If you looked, it was a straight bladed
sword
>> >with a rounded tip. Most likely a Tai Chi Sword.

>>It was kept in a classic katana sheath. A Tai Chi sword would have a
willow
>>point and, likely, tassles on the pommel. Also, one-handed, not two.
Blade
>>definitely used his sword two handed, kendo style.
>>
>>>Mike Broadwater

>If the sword was straight or nearly so and used two-handed it
>might have been a No-daichi, it can be recognized by the minimal
>round or octagonal guard.
>
>Just my two cp.

He was probably using a Ninjato. Unlike most Oriental (or at least
Japanese) Weapons, the Ninjato is straight and has a metal guard
(Traditionally, Oriental weapons had wooden guards.).

>(Yeah cp. Sorry 'bout that, but I nearly got killed by a samurai today.
>I broke his katana, he got mad at me, drew his wakizashi, and after two
>swipes I was on the ground coughing blood. And this on my first night
>out!! I hate people carrying more than one sword!)
>
>
>
>Dick van de Bunt
<SNIP>

What stats do you use for a Wakizashi?
Off the top of my head, here are my suggestions for some Oriental
Weapons:
Ninjato: (Str+2)M, +1 reach
No-Dachi: (Str)S, +2 reach
Sai: (Str-1)M, +0 reach, bonus to parry attempts (+2 dice??)
Wakazashi: (Str)M Damage, +0 reach
Of course still have to make the rest of the stats for them ... but I'd
have to really think about it ... maybe if there suficient interst ...

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 44
From: NightLife <habenir@*****.UC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:35:19 -0400
>>If the sword was straight or nearly so and used two-handed it
>>might have been a No-daichi, it can be recognized by the minimal
>>round or octagonal guard.
>>
>>Just my two cp.
>
>He was probably using a Ninjato. Unlike most Oriental (or at least
>Japanese) Weapons, the Ninjato is straight and has a metal guard
>(Traditionally, Oriental weapons had wooden guards.).

Nope I've got a picture with it here and it's defiantely not a ninjato. It
closer to a tai chi sword with a round pommel and maybe a small ridge for a
guard but that's it.


>What stats do you use for a Wakizashi?
>Off the top of my head, here are my suggestions for some Oriental
>Weapons:
>Ninjato: (Str+2)M, +1 reach
>No-Dachi: (Str)S, +2 reach
>Sai: (Str-1)M, +0 reach, bonus to parry attempts (+2 dice??)

Sounds good. How about a +1 benefit to parry instead of dice. This could be
applied to a main gauche as well.

>Wakazashi: (Str)M Damage, +0 reach
>Of course still have to make the rest of the stats for them ... but I'd
>have to really think about it ... maybe if there suficient interst ...

Sounds cool.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nightlife Inc.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

"I am telling you nothing - merely asking you to remember that death come in
many shades. Some are harsh and infinitely painful to look upon; others can
be
as peaceful and beautiful as the setting sun. I am an artist, and many colors
lie on upon my palette. Let me paint him a rainbow, and give you the means to
decide where it ends."

Erik from the book Phantom.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Document Classified
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Message no. 45
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:18:09 -0500
On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:26:23 EDT K is the Symbol <Ereskanti@***.COM>
writes:
>In a message dated 8/25/1998 6:35:12 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
>dghost@****.COM writes:
>> How about this for oversimplification:
>> A concentration (or specializion in SR3) in MA Style is considered
one
>> less than the level bought. However, the character gains the ability
to
>> utilize the following 'Stances" (more like combat modes listed as
"name:
>> effect [example rating bought/attack rating/counterattack rating
>> used{maximum combat pool usable}]):

>Interesting thought.

The intention was to create something that could be used from the
character creation. While the system in TSS-02 is really cool, it can't
easily be used from character creation since it involves increasing the
cost of the concetration. (ie, the concetration skill costs 100-300% of
normal)

>> Evasive: +4 dice (up to skill rating) for counterattacking but no
damage
>> can result [bought rating 4/3/6 {3/3}]
>>
>> Defensive: as Evasive except the skill is considered increased and
the
>> the defended attack is never considered a clean miss. [bought 4/3/6
>> {3/6}]
>>
>> Neutral: Skill is considered 1 level higher than normal in all
>> circumstances. [bought rating 4/4/4 {4/4}]
>>
>> Offensive: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for attacks. [bought
4/5/3
>> {5/3}]
>>
>> Reactionary: Skill is considered 2 levels higher for counterattacks.
>> [bought 4/3/5 {3/5}]
>>
>> Characters may change stances as a free action on their combat phase.
>>
>> Okay, this may seem really bizzare but what do you think?

>Alfredo, I have to admit, that this is not entirely too bad, at least
not at a
>first glance. The exact impact on mechanics I am uncertain of, but it
does
>sound/read as fair to decent at first glance.
>
>Not Bad :)
>
>-K

Thanks, actually in retrospect (while at school) I thought it was really
off. Now that I have it front of me, I don't know what I'd change.

Hmm... perhaps Evasive stance should be +100% (round down) skill dice
(but skill is NOT increased and as such does not increase the maximum
amount of Combat Pool spendable.) with no damage resulting from winning a
counterattack AND no attack may be intiated while in evasive stance.

(I beefed the dice but tacked on no attacks while in the stance [however,
you can defend when someone attacks you then on your phase switch to an
agressive stance and wail on someone.)

Defensive stance should be +100% skill dice (but skill is NOT increased
and as such does not increase the maximum amount of Combat Pool
spendable.) but the defender always loses counterattacks (if the defender
has more successes than the attacker, they are applied to the damage
resistance test.)

Btw, as a side note: I study Cha Yon Ryu under Grandmaster Kim Soo and
Master Sean Kim. Cha Yon Ryu draws elements from Bong Sul, Chung Fa Kung
Fu, Hapkido/Aikido, Judo/Jujitso Shotokan Karate, Tae Kwon Do. Because
of this, I see a lot of the differences in the possible approaches to
disabling your opponent. For example, the climbing stance channels your
strength effeciently and gives you more powerful blows but while in that
stance, you present a larger target for you opponent since you're torso
is facing forward. In contrast, while in back stance (sparring stance)
or cat stance, you're torso is sideways presenting a smaller, more easily
defendable (at least against forward opponents :) target but sacrifices
some of the power of climbing stance. In these cases, I would classify
climing stance as an Agressive Stance and back/cat stance as a neutral
stance. I can't really think of a defensive stance per se, but I
intended it to reflect all out blocking.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
"Bong Sul*: The offical martial arts style of NWS**"
* Bong Sul is a fighting style using bongs (which means "sticks" or
something along those lines.). The basic teqchniques for fighting with
the weapons used to teach Bong Sul can be extrapolated to other weapons.

**NWS stands for New World Soldiers. For more information on this gang,
read Steve Kenson's Underworld Sourcebook.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 46
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:53:35 -0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> What stats do you use for a Wakizashi?
> Off the top of my head, here are my suggestions for some Oriental
> Weapons:
> Ninjato: (Str+2)M, +1 reach
> No-Dachi: (Str)S, +2 reach
> Sai: (Str-1)M, +0 reach, bonus to parry attempts (+2 dice??)
> Wakazashi: (Str)M Damage, +0 reach
> Of course still have to make the rest of the stats for them ... but I'd
> have to really think about it ... maybe if there suficient interst ...

I'd give the Wakizashi a (STR+2)M. It was after all, masterfully
crafted,
like the Katana :). The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
more quality. I also think that katana/wakizashi made by a master
armorer
would have a higher power than the mass production things available :).

Bira
Message no. 47
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:37:18 -0500
On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:53:35 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
<ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
>Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>> What stats do you use for a Wakizashi?
>> Off the top of my head, here are my suggestions for some Oriental
>> Weapons:
>> Ninjato: (Str+2)M, +1 reach
>> No-Dachi: (Str)S, +2 reach
>> Sai: (Str-1)M, +0 reach, bonus to parry attempts (+2 dice??)
>> Wakazashi: (Str)M Damage, +0 reach
>> Of course still have to make the rest of the stats for them ... but
I'd
>> have to really think about it ... maybe if there suficient interst ...

> I'd give the Wakizashi a (STR+2)M. It was after all,
masterfullycrafted,
>like the Katana :).

I would give it at the most (Str+1)M. It is afterall a shortsword ... :P

>The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
>break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
>more quality.

I don't recall anything about the Ninjato being poorly crafted ... in
fact, IIRC, the quality was similar to the katana's (a little less than
the katana but still a bit higher than a Western sword.)

>I also think that katana/wakizashi made by a master armorer
>would have a higher power than the mass production things available :).
>
> Bira

Perhaps a +1 to power at the *most* ... that +1 can go a long way ... It
would mean that a Str 1 char wielding a katana does 5M! and the average
human (str 3) does 7M and the average troll does 11M! Frightening. IMO,
it is better to leave things as they are.

If you master workmanship vrs mass production to enter into things, then
say that the base damage for a katana is (Str+2)M and a master smith can
give it +1 power or a weapons factory can use alloys that can't be
hand-worked to give it a +1 to power. (in other words, master
workmanship vrs mass production becomes a metter of style/personal
preference. :)

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 48
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:15:16 -0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:53:35 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
> <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
> >Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> >> What stats do you use for a Wakizashi?
> >> Off the top of my head, here are my suggestions for some Oriental
> >> Weapons:
> >> Ninjato: (Str+2)M, +1 reach
> >> No-Dachi: (Str)S, +2 reach
> >> Sai: (Str-1)M, +0 reach, bonus to parry attempts (+2 dice??)
> >> Wakazashi: (Str)M Damage, +0 reach
> >> Of course still have to make the rest of the stats for them ... but
> I'd
> >> have to really think about it ... maybe if there suficient interst ...
>
> > I'd give the Wakizashi a (STR+2)M. It was after all,
> masterfullycrafted,
> >like the Katana :).
>
> I would give it at the most (Str+1)M. It is afterall a shortsword ... :P

I base my statements in an article I saw in a RPg magazine, so I may
be
a bit off... The Samurai swords were of a higher quality than their
oriental
equivalents. An Western shorsword does (STR+1)M (It's in FoF, I guess :)
)...
Then a Wakizashi is (STR+2)M (same as a Western longsword), and the
Katana
is (STR+3)M, being a higher quality weapon...
Then maybe a Western zweihander (2-hans sword - I like the name :)
does (STR+3)M with reach +2, and a No-Daichi would be at (STR+4)
with the same reach bonus...

> >The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
> >break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
> >more quality.
>
> I don't recall anything about the Ninjato being poorly crafted ... in
> fact, IIRC, the quality was similar to the katana's (a little less than
> the katana but still a bit higher than a Western sword.)

IIRC too, only half of the Ninja-To's blade had an edge... So maybe
it could
be the (STR+1)M sword with an option of causing Stun damage instead of
Physical...

> >I also think that katana/wakizashi made by a master armorer
> >would have a higher power than the mass production things available :).
> >
> > Bira
>
> Perhaps a +1 to power at the *most* ... that +1 can go a long way ... It
> would mean that a Str 1 char wielding a katana does 5M! and the average
> human (str 3) does 7M and the average troll does 11M! Frightening. IMO,
> it is better to leave things as they are.

That's exactly what I was thinking about. +1 to power...

Bira
Message no. 49
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:13:29 -0500
On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:15:16 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
<ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
>Alfredo B Alves wrote:
<SNIP>
>> I would give it at the most (Str+1)M. It is afterall a shortsword ...
:P

> I base my statements in an article I saw in a RPg magazine, so I may
be
>a bit off...

What magazine? I base a lot of what I know off a RPG game (Rolemaster).

>The Samurai swords were of a higher quality than their oriental
>equivalents. An Western shorsword does (STR+1)M (It's in FoF, I guess
:))...
>Then a Wakizashi is (STR+2)M (same as a Western longsword), and the
Katana
>is (STR+3)M, being a higher quality weapon...

There is no Shortsword in FoF ... You're thinking of the Cougar Fineblade
(long) which is large knife that was created with techniques that give it
properties similar to Dikote. However, it is not a shortsword. If it
weren't for the special design, the damage would be more like (Str+1)L.
If you can find somewhere a cannon western shortsword, I agree that the
Wakazashi would have +1 to the power.

> Then maybe a Western zweihander (2-hans sword - I like the name :)
>does (STR+3)M with reach +2, and a No-Daichi would be at (STR+4)
>with the same reach bonus...

I would say the damage code for a 2-handed sword (Something)S perhaps
(STR)S or (STR-1)S [IMO, the comat axe should do more damage so I'd go
with (Str-1)S] ... here, again the No-dachi would have +1 to the power.

>> >The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
>> >break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
>> >more quality.

>> I don't recall anything about the Ninjato being poorly crafted ... in
>> fact, IIRC, the quality was similar to the katana's (a little less
than
>> the katana but still a bit higher than a Western sword.)

> IIRC too, only half of the Ninja-To's blade had an edge... So maybeit
could
>be the (STR+1)M sword with an option of causing Stun damage instead of
>Physical...

Katana is also single edged, so why would the Ninjato's damage code
suffer if a Katana's doesn't? Either way, attacking with the dull edge
of a blade is STRONGLY advised against. :)

>> >I also think that katana/wakizashi made by a master armorer
>> >would have a higher power than the mass production things available
:).
>> >
>> > Bira

>> Perhaps a +1 to power at the *most* ... that +1 can go a long way ...
It
>> would mean that a Str 1 char wielding a katana does 5M! and the
average
>> human (str 3) does 7M and the average troll does 11M! Frightening.
IMO,
>> it is better to leave things as they are.

> That's exactly what I was thinking about. +1 to power...
>
> Bira

IMO, it is better to assume that katana's current damage code includes
master workmanship or exceptional alloys.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
Message no. 50
From: Alex Pennock <acjpenn@******.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 20:55:53 -0500
okay..gonna jump in on this one..first off, hoped I don't get smacked for
this, but Pallidium has a book out (copendium of medival weapons) that is
excellent for this sort of thing. I always thougth the reason for the lower
damage of a wakizashi was beacause the cutting edge is about half of a
katana's edge...a two handed sword IMO should do some serious damage and add
to your strength..in the case of the zweihander, you are talking massive
crushing damage, with a no-dachi the cut was the effect and the blade was
high enough quality to pass through just about anything in its way..I think
that a tow handed sword would have more damage (agree w/str+3 S) than an ax
because the cut is so much larger..and as a last thought the ninja-to was not
nearly as sharp as a katana, mostly because it was used for different
applications, like a step for scaling a wall, and they were very durable,
just not as durable as a high quality family katana; though the loss of
damage is offset by the number of different uses and weapons you could make
from a ninja-to and it's sheath (saya in japanese) and other tools (knives
and such). Just my thoughts.
Message no. 51
From: "Ubiratan P. Alberton" <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:29:02 -0300
Alfredo B Alves wrote:
>
> On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 18:15:16 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
> <ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
> >Alfredo B Alves wrote:
> <SNIP>
> >> I would give it at the most (Str+1)M. It is afterall a shortsword ...
> :P
>
> > I base my statements in an article I saw in a RPg magazine, so I may
> be
> >a bit off...
>
> What magazine? I base a lot of what I know off a RPG game (Rolemaster).

Dragão Brasil :)... It was an article with oriental weapons for AD&D.

> >The Samurai swords were of a higher quality than their oriental
> >equivalents. An Western shorsword does (STR+1)M (It's in FoF, I guess
> :))...
> >Then a Wakizashi is (STR+2)M (same as a Western longsword), and the
> Katana
> >is (STR+3)M, being a higher quality weapon...
>
> There is no Shortsword in FoF ... You're thinking of the Cougar Fineblade
> (long) which is large knife that was created with techniques that give it
> properties similar to Dikote. However, it is not a shortsword. If it
> weren't for the special design, the damage would be more like (Str+1)L.
> If you can find somewhere a cannon western shortsword, I agree that the
> Wakazashi would have +1 to the power.

See the melee rules, in the section about fighting with 2 weapons,
they
give generic stats for short swords.

> > Then maybe a Western zweihander (2-hans sword - I like the name :)
> >does (STR+3)M with reach +2, and a No-Daichi would be at (STR+4)
> >with the same reach bonus...
>
> I would say the damage code for a 2-handed sword (Something)S perhaps
> (STR)S or (STR-1)S [IMO, the comat axe should do more damage so I'd go
> with (Str-1)S] ... here, again the No-dachi would have +1 to the power.
>
> >> >The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
> >> >break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
> >> >more quality.
>
> >> I don't recall anything about the Ninjato being poorly crafted ... in
> >> fact, IIRC, the quality was similar to the katana's (a little less
> than
> >> the katana but still a bit higher than a Western sword.)
>
> > IIRC too, only half of the Ninja-To's blade had an edge... So maybeit
> could
> >be the (STR+1)M sword with an option of causing Stun damage instead of
> >Physical...
>
> Katana is also single edged, so why would the Ninjato's damage code
> suffer if a Katana's doesn't? Either way, attacking with the dull edge
> of a blade is STRONGLY advised against. :)

The katana is single-edged, but the edge covers the full length of
the blade's side. In the ninja-to, it's only the lower half of one side
of the blade that's edged, so you could say it was a "half-edged" sword.

I saw this bit in a documentary, some time ago. The Ninja-to was
built
for versatility, you could use the "edgeless" part to force doors open
or
to hit your opponents withtout killing them.
Message no. 52
From: Alfredo B Alves <dghost@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Capoeira
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 21:55:03 -0500
On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 23:29:02 -0300 "Ubiratan P. Alberton"
<ubiratan@**.HOMESHOPPING.COM.BR> writes:
>Alfredo B Alves wrote:
<SNIP>
>> >The Samurai swords were of a higher quality than their oriental
>> >equivalents. An Western shorsword does (STR+1)M (It's in FoF, I
guess:))...
>> >Then a Wakizashi is (STR+2)M (same as a Western longsword), and the
Katana
>> >is (STR+3)M, being a higher quality weapon...

>> There is no Shortsword in FoF ... You're thinking of the Cougar
Fineblade
>> (long) which is large knife that was created with techniques that give
it
>> properties similar to Dikote. However, it is not a shortsword. If it
>> weren't for the special design, the damage would be more like
(Str+1)L.
>> If you can find somewhere a cannon western shortsword, I agree that
the
>> Wakazashi would have +1 to the power.

> See the melee rules, in the section about fighting with 2 weapons,
they
>give generic stats for short swords.

Hmmm.... That says *Light* sword. By that I think it to mean
lightweight, like a rapier. Look at the stats. It still gets a +1
reach. A short sword is around half the length of a normal sword (It
still weighs about the same though!) and as such, IMO, shouldn't get the
reach bonus. Therefore, I believe my original conclusion that the "Light
Sword" in FoF is correct. :)

<SNIP>
>> >> >The Ninja-to was the cheap sword (you could make it
>> >> >break in a critical failure). Or maybe the 2060 Ninja-to has a bit
>> >> >more quality.

>> >> I don't recall anything about the Ninjato being poorly crafted ...
in
>> >> fact, IIRC, the quality was similar to the katana's (a little less
than
>> >> the katana but still a bit higher than a Western sword.)

>> >IIRC too, only half of the Ninja-To's blade had an edge... So maybeit
could
>> >be the (STR+1)M sword with an option of causing Stun damage instead
of
>> >Physical...

>> Katana is also single edged, so why would the Ninjato's damage code
>> suffer if a Katana's doesn't? Either way, attacking with the dull
edge
>> of a blade is STRONGLY advised against. :)

> The katana is single-edged, but the edge covers the full length of
>the blade's side. In the ninja-to, it's only the lower half of one side
>of the blade that's edged, so you could say it was a "half-edged" sword.
>
> I saw this bit in a documentary, some time ago. The Ninja-to wasbuilt
>for versatility, you could use the "edgeless" part to force doors openor
>to hit your opponents withtout killing them.

Ah. I see. THAT I did not know ... A friend of my has a full-edged
Ninjato so I assume that it is available as such.

D. Ghost
(aka Pixel, Tantrum, RuPixel)
o/` Trideo killed the Video Star ... o/`

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Capoeira, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!