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Message no. 1
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:12:56 +0200
In all my exploration of organised and street crime, I have noticed a
proliferation of cash. That's what crime is all about after all, money
and power.

In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.
Also, many people do not trust banks and other financial institutions.
Many of the poor will not earn enough to qualify for credticks or will
not be able to feed their families and pay the bank charges associated
with advanced tech like a Cstick.

Can you be traced by transactions made by certified credstick? Given
the level of paranoia prevalent in the Information Age, I would think
that the personal details of person who applies for the certstick
would be carried over onto it.

In my games, cash is king. Electronic funds are widely used for larger
transactions and by the middle and upper classes, which represent a
small percentage of the population but a large percentage of the
gross turnover. This has also helped me with a rationale for any of
the crime syndicates still being in operation.

Any thoughts?
- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 2
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:47:28 +0200
According to DV8, at 11:12 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
> exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
> business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
> drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
> need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.

The way I see it, the black market etc. works mainly with cash. Official
institutions and businesses in my Sixth World want payment in electronic
money and frown on the use of actual money, but BTL dealers, fixers,
street hookers, and so on want either a certified credstick, or paper
money (which is still available -- Tir Tairngire, for example, prints
nuyen bills and mints nuyen coins). Another source of paper money would be
old bills, from before electronic currency became the norm.

> Can you be traced by transactions made by certified credstick? Given
> the level of paranoia prevalent in the Information Age, I would think
> that the personal details of person who applies for the certstick
> would be carried over onto it.

Not the personal details (this is from one or more SR sourcebooks, but I
can't remember which one(s)), but it _is_ traceable, if you have the
proper access. Banks, for example, can (with some difficulty) trace the
money that's on a certified credstick. That's part of the reason why some
runners or Johnsons prefer cash, or even stock in a corporation, to get
paid/pay with.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 3
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:50:24 -0400
Gurth wrote:
>
> According to DV8, at 11:12 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
> the street was...
>
> > In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
> > exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
> > business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
> > drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
> > need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.
>
> The way I see it, the black market etc. works mainly with cash. Official
> institutions and businesses in my Sixth World want payment in electronic
> money and frown on the use of actual money, but BTL dealers, fixers,
> street hookers, and so on want either a certified credstick, or paper
> money (which is still available -- Tir Tairngire, for example, prints
> nuyen bills and mints nuyen coins). Another source of paper money would be
> old bills, from before electronic currency became the norm.

Don't forget corp scrip. IIRC, Corporate Shadowfiles (I don't have
Corp. Download yet) talks about corp scrip being accepted in areas
near the megacorps that issued them. Scrip should be less traceable
than normal electronic funds, and the street life could easily use it
at legitamite places such as the local Stuffer Shack and such.


--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 4
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:01:24 -0400
At 08:50 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Gurth wrote:
>Don't forget corp scrip. IIRC, Corporate Shadowfiles (I don't have
>Corp. Download yet) talks about corp scrip being accepted in areas
>near the megacorps that issued them. Scrip should be less traceable
>than normal electronic funds, and the street life could easily use it
>at legitamite places such as the local Stuffer Shack and such.

Corp Scrip is explicitly mentioned in the Corporate Download. Its also said
that for almost every place you have to be an employee of the corp, and be
able to provide ID that says so, in order to spend it. There is a black
market for the stuff, but as usual you don't get the full amount.

And as a side note, I really liked the game information section about all
of the corps. Very usefel info on how runs for and against them go. Even
mentions how much they pay compared to average and what the preferred
methods are.

Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 5
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:10:38 -0400
At 08:50 AM 6/30/99 -0400, Iridios wrote:

<<snip what do criminals carry on the street>>

>Don't forget corp scrip. IIRC, Corporate Shadowfiles (I don't have
>Corp. Download yet) talks about corp scrip being accepted in areas
>near the megacorps that issued them. Scrip should be less traceable
>than normal electronic funds, and the street life could easily use it
>at legitamite places such as the local Stuffer Shack and such.

They take a little different approach in Corp. Download about script.
Mostly script is used to force employees to stay with the company...ie
someone has built up a nest egg of 100,000 Shiawise script...but it's
worthless if he jumps to MCT or any other place.
They go through the book telling you which corps like to pay in what. For
example, Ares likes to pay in arms and equipment, I think it's Shiawise
that likes to pay in Stock, and Renraku that likes to pay in script, even
if you didn't want it.
To use the script you have to a)be at an area that accept it (which they
say is only places that megacorp owns) and b)be a corporate employee of
that corp. So if someone else wanted to use script they'd have to have a
fake id that went with it that tied them to that script. Of course they
say you can get it exchanged through the black market though.


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 6
From: Arcaist arcaist@***.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:11:02 +0200
: Don't forget corp scrip. IIRC, Corporate Shadowfiles (I don't have
: Corp. Download yet) talks about corp scrip being accepted in areas
: near the megacorps that issued them. Scrip should be less traceable
: than normal electronic funds, and the street life could easily use it
: at legitamite places such as the local Stuffer Shack and such.

That may work if you look corp enough, but certainly not for your
archetypical hooker, BTL-dealer or squatter. The personel at Stuffer
Shack would rather think that you've robbed an exec (hell, they'll be
right in most cases, wont't they?) then believe that you've earned it
through legal work and therefor call LoneStar ASAP.

: --
: Iridios
: "Accept what you cannot avoid,
: Avoid what you cannot accept."

--
(><) Arcaist (><)
Message no. 7
From: Iridios iridios@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:28:08 -0400
Arcaist wrote:

> That may work if you look corp enough, but certainly not for your
> archetypical hooker, BTL-dealer or squatter. The personel at Stuffer
> Shack would rather think that you've robbed an exec (hell, they'll be
> right in most cases, wont't they?) then believe that you've earned it
> through legal work and therefor call LoneStar ASAP.

Do you think a hooker *looks* like a hooker all day? I would believe
that many of them dress in a relatively normal fashion when not
working. And a local Stuffer or some such street level business would
IMO accept scrip in reasonable amounts, after all they have bills to
pay too and cash is cash.

--
Iridios
"Accept what you cannot avoid,
Avoid what you cannot accept."
Message no. 8
From: AndMat3@***.com AndMat3@***.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:28:09 EDT
In a message dated 6/30/99 5:14:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> In my games, cash is king. Electronic funds are widely used for larger
> transactions and by the middle and upper classes, which represent a
> small percentage of the population but a large percentage of the
> gross turnover. This has also helped me with a rationale for any of
> the crime syndicates still being in operation.
>

frankly, i love the visuals that having cash gives you. all my games have
heavy city-script transactions. carrying a cred stick is safe; and most
people do it... but not most people (a) in the shadows (b) don't worry about
being robbed - carry both.

andy
Message no. 9
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:29:58 -0700
On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:12:56 DV8 wrote:

>In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
>exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
>business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
>drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
>need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.
>Also, many people do not trust banks and other financial institutions.
>Many of the poor will not earn enough to qualify for credticks or will
>not be able to feed their families and pay the bank charges associated
>with advanced tech like a Cstick.

In many areas, electronic money is quite proliferate by 2060. It's not higher than
average tech - it's a common standard. Places that only use paper money are a bit behind
the curve.
Also realize that there are 2 types of credsticks out there. There's the one with your
SIN (and all of your personal information, gun licenses, etc.) which is attached to your
bank accounts. Then there's all the rest which are basically cash on a stick. The latter
is what you use to do business with a good part of the time. It's about as traceable as
cash is today (someone has to really want to trace it to find it - how many of us write
down the serial numbers on all of our bills in case our wallets get stolen?). So,
certified cred is fairly safe - especially if you transfer it to different sticks a couple
of times while not attached to the matrix (there are black market credswipers or some such
out there).

Other methods are available, of course, but this is common.

>Can you be traced by transactions made by certified credstick? Given
>the level of paranoia prevalent in the Information Age, I would think
>that the personal details of person who applies for the certstick
>would be carried over onto it.

Again, don't use your registered cred which is attached to your accounts. Use the
electronic equivalent of cash - certified cred.

>In my games, cash is king. Electronic funds are widely used for larger
>transactions and by the middle and upper classes, which represent a
>small percentage of the population but a large percentage of the
>gross turnover. This has also helped me with a rationale for any of
>the crime syndicates still being in operation.

Keep in mind (as a player pointed out to me awhile back) that if you use paper money, it
must be backed by a government in order for it to be useful. If it isn't then it's
worthless and even the poor won't use it anymore because it has no worth.

> - - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 10
From: Kelson kelson13@*******.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:35:34 -0700
On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:28:08 Iridios wrote:

>Do you think a hooker *looks* like a hooker all day? I would believe
>that many of them dress in a relatively normal fashion when not
>working. And a local Stuffer or some such street level business would
>IMO accept scrip in reasonable amounts, after all they have bills to
>pay too and cash is cash.

Actually, many hookers live on the streets, so it's not like they have a large wardrobe of
corp clothing just hanging around. But that's not really the point we're discussing
anyway. ;)

In order for any non-corp business to accept corp script, they would have to have an
agreement with said corp that would allow them to accept said script and trade it for
whatever with the corp. This is unlikely. After all, corps like to keep track of their
people and their money. This is a good part of why they have their own script in the
first place. How many of them are going to trust some stuffer shack clerk to check for
proper ID, etc. when taking the script as payment?

>Iridios

Justin


--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Message no. 11
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:50:28 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: Kelson <kelson13@*******.com>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 30 June 1999 03:35
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime


>On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:12:56 DV8 wrote:
>
<snip me>
>In many areas, electronic money is quite proliferate by 2060. It's
not higher than average tech - it's a common standard. Places that
only use paper money are a bit behind the curve.
>Also realize that there are 2 types of credsticks out there. There's
the one with your SIN (and all of your personal information, gun
licenses, etc.) which is attached to your bank accounts. Then there's
all the rest which are basically cash on a stick. The latter is what
you use to do business with a good part of the time. It's about as
traceable as cash is today (someone has to really want to trace it to
find it - how many of us write down the serial numbers on all of our
bills in case our wallets get stolen?). So, certified cred is fairly
safe - especially if you transfer it to different sticks a couple of
times while not attached to the matrix (there are black market
credswipers or some such out there).

Justin

Everything you said was actually covered by my original post and a
working knowledge of the game.

The point I was trying to make is that Organised Crime moves hundreds
of thousands of units of BTL and flesh every <insert time period> It
would be tough to explain to the bank manager when you show up with
wheelbarrows full of certsticks. :) I presume that those credswipers
you mention would'nt be able to tranfer funds without the codes needed
to ID the original account they came from. Banking systems today work
in much the same way and I can only see the level of paranoid tracking
increasing in the 2050's and 60's

>Other methods are available, of course, but this is common.

Those other methods having to be cash. There is barter of course but
this raises all kinds of problems.

Mr J : OK, thanks for a great datasteal. Please report to Ares head
office to collect your crate of rockets :)
Not!

>Again, don't use your registered cred which is attached to your
accounts. Use the electronic equivalent of >cash - certified cred.

As i stated above, cert cred cant be the only way to go. People simply
wont trust it. I know my players do not.

<Snip me again>
>Keep in mind (as a player pointed out to me awhile back) that if you
use paper money, it must be backed by a government in order for it to
be useful. If it isn't then it's worthless and even the poor won't
use it anymore because it has no worth.

Umm.. last time I checked , governments still ran the show in SR. If
they back electronic funds then they damn sure better back paper
funds. I dont see corps taking over the entire world banking system
and issuing their own currency, right? :) Thus, no problem.

CASH IS KING!

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 12
From: Ahuizotl cuellare@***.telmex.net.mx
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:43:36 -0500
> > That may work if you look corp enough, but certainly not for your
> > archetypical hooker, BTL-dealer or squatter. The personel at Stuffer
> > Shack would rather think that you've robbed an exec (hell, they'll be
> > right in most cases, wont't they?) then believe that you've earned it
> > through legal work and therefor call LoneStar ASAP.
>
IMHO and the way is play in my games it goes like this.

If the Hooker, BTL dealer or what ever are "afiliate" to soma kind of
MAF, Yak etc.. They acept credisticks (they can accept other credisticks
to have transfers of credit) or depend of the category of the hooker,
fixer and or BTL dealer, they can also have Verifiers, The (fill
criminal organization) take care of the laundry and the false ID to the
"worker" (or not so false since they have lots of companies to "wash"
money and can give a real one) in order that they can expend the
newyens. This also works like "you keep in the good side of the
organization or you losse all" for the "personal".

The freelancers is the ones that have the problem. They have to mount
his own Laundry squeme. But in my SRUni. there are deckers dedicate only
in washing money.

Ahuizotl
Message no. 13
From: Dennis Steinmeijer dv8@********.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:14:48 +0200
DV8 wrote:
> The point I was trying to make is that Organised Crime moves hundreds
> of thousands of units of BTL and flesh every <insert time period> It
> would be tough to explain to the bank manager when you show up with
> wheelbarrows full of certsticks. :) I presume that those credswipers
> you mention would'nt be able to tranfer funds without the codes needed
> to ID the original account they came from. Banking systems today work
> in much the same way and I can only see the level of paranoid tracking
> increasing in the 2050's and 60's

The bank managers can be bought, and there's always the option of
moneylaundring. It would be more difficult than it is now, but criminal
organizations get more inventive at every turn.

Dennis

"Abashed the Devil stood,...and felt how awful Goodness is..."
Message no. 14
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:45:30 +1000
At 11:12 30/06/99 +0200 DV8 wrote

Here's a little side note about the cash discussion.

I personally like the idea of the existance of hard
currency. Opening a briefcase at a meet with a fixer
to reveal a lone credstick just doesn't have the same
feel as a case full of used notes.

Anyway I digress. I would imagine that the notes
would not be paper. Here in Australia we have
been minting polymer notes since about 1988
and all of our paper currency has since been
converted to polymer.

Not only is a polymer note 14 times more durable
than a paper one they are virtually impossible
to forge. Since their mainstream introduction
the Australian Federal Police (the Aust equivalent
to the US FBI) have caught only forgers attempting
to forge our old paper notes or US dollars. There
has not been one recorded case of anyone forging
our polymer notes.

In any case I see a valuable use for cash in the
SR game and in my world such cash is a polymer
note with some kind of synthetic coins.

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 15
From: Mockingbird mockingbird@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:59:12 -0500
Comments with message. Sections not commented on are <snipped>

----- Original Message -----
From: DV8 <gyro@********.co.za>
To: Shadowrun Discussion <SHADOWRN@*********.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 4:12 AM
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime


> In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
> exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
> business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
> drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
> need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.
> Also, many people do not trust banks and other financial institutions.
> Many of the poor will not earn enough to qualify for credticks or will
> not be able to feed their families and pay the bank charges associated
> with advanced tech like a Cstick.
>

There is cash in Seattle, but many people do use certified cred, though
perhaps not certified credsticks. Credsticks have the ability to store
certified creds within them, allowing the certified cred to be transfered
between two sticks.(think the Tek war series). You can then go to the bank
and stick your credstick in, and the transfer is moved automaticly. Is this
good for everybody, no, but works for many, such as corp execs who would
have trouble explaining a weekly withdraw of 100 nuyen.

> Can you be traced by transactions made by certified credstick? Given
> the level of paranoia prevalent in the Information Age, I would think
> that the personal details of person who applies for the certstick
> would be carried over onto it.
>

Actually, they are not. Though every certified credstick has a serial
number encoded into them that can be tracked.

> In my games, cash is king. Electronic funds are widely used for larger
> transactions and by the middle and upper classes, which represent a
> small percentage of the population but a large percentage of the
> gross turnover. This has also helped me with a rationale for any of
> the crime syndicates still being in operation.
>

Someone has mentioned about wheelbarrows of certified credsticks, perhaps
you, I do not know. Wouldn't wheelbarrows full of cash be similiar? Sure
there is money laundering, but many drug dealers or hookers would not go
this route, unless they are tied to a much larger orginization. Credsticks
are quickly coming upon us (how many of us use a check card or smart card?)
and I think you can find many ways that orginized crime can adapt to this
new medium (no cash to be confiscated during a raid for example). Though,
if you wish to have cash be the primary mode of trade in your game, go for
it.

Mockingbird
Message no. 16
From: 00DNA mcmanus@******.albany.edu
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:30:23 -0400
At 09:59 AM 6/30/99 -0500, Mockingbird wrote:

>Someone has mentioned about wheelbarrows of certified credsticks, perhaps
>you, I do not know. Wouldn't wheelbarrows full of cash be similiar? Sure
>there is money laundering, but many drug dealers or hookers would not go
>this route, unless they are tied to a much larger orginization. Credsticks
>are quickly coming upon us (how many of us use a check card or smart card?)
>and I think you can find many ways that orginized crime can adapt to this
>new medium (no cash to be confiscated during a raid for example). Though,
>if you wish to have cash be the primary mode of trade in your game, go for
>it.

Just an aside. Almost all of the street people are tied to one organized
crime family or another. With the yakuza and mafia as well as triads and
seolupa rings there's not much room for freelancers. New Seattle shows
this buy saying which gangs are tied to which organized crime units.


--00DNA
"...user connection terminated."
Message no. 17
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:52:04 +0200
According to Iridios, at 9:28 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> Do you think a hooker *looks* like a hooker all day? I would believe
> that many of them dress in a relatively normal fashion when not
> working. And a local Stuffer or some such street level business would
> IMO accept scrip in reasonable amounts, after all they have bills to
> pay too and cash is cash.

They'd only accept it if they can spend it themselves (or take it to a
bank) and won't get into trouble for doing so. IMHO this unlikely, because
the corps like to keep the money to themselves; not coming down on a non-
corp "source" for corporate scrip sets a precedent they might want to
avoid.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
PE Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 18
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:32:45 -0400
At 11.12 06-30-99 +0200, you wrote:
>In all my exploration of organised and street crime, I have noticed a
>proliferation of cash. That's what crime is all about after all, money

Used to be, but certani elements are becoming a greater part of the whole,
and do not commit crimes from money but for enjoyment. (Scary SOBs, too.)

>exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
>business? In certified sticks?

I've always had the impression that there were nuyen bills/coins around,
and that all of the NorAm states used thier own version of currency (there
is more than just Nuyen). Cash has always been good, but sometimes you get
overcharged in some places. Somethig about it being associated with
criminals.
We also use barter in certain cases .


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 19
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:25:26 -0400
At 00.45 07-01-99 +1000, you wrote:
>I personally like the idea of the existance of hard
>currency. Opening a briefcase at a meet with a fixer
>to reveal a lone credstick just doesn't have the same
>feel as a case full of used notes.

No, it doesn't. But you can do other things with credsticks, like using a
tie-clip box if you really want to be traditional.

>than a paper one they are virtually impossible
>to forge. Since their mainstream introduction

That is only because the machinery needed to reproduce those notes is
expenisve and hard to come by. Watch the PRC, NorKor and Iran. Those are
the sources for the best forgeries right now.
Once you have machine that can print the note, then you need to get the
proper stock and ink.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 20
From: Andy Minor andyman@****.pyro.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:13:30 -0500 (CDT)
> From: "Mockingbird" <mockingbird@*********.com>

> There is cash in Seattle, but many people do use certified cred, though
> perhaps not certified credsticks. Credsticks have the ability to store
> certified creds within them, allowing the certified cred to be transfered
> between two sticks.(think the Tek war series). You can then go to the bank
> and stick your credstick in, and the transfer is moved automaticly. Is this
> good for everybody, no, but works for many, such as corp execs who would
> have trouble explaining a weekly withdraw of 100 nuyen.

I've always operated under the impression that "certified cred" was the SR
equivalent of a money order, cashier's check, negotiable treasury
certificates. It's anonymous, and backed by a bank or other financial
institution, and thus as good as cash. The drawback to this is that the
bank or other financial institution involved would almost certainly charge
a fee (percentage of the amount to be certified) in order to create them,
as well as a fee for the physical credstick.

This is not a big deal when you're a corp type Johnson hiring
Shadowrunners; you can afford to take the extra expense of being
anonymous. But for street people, that expense adds up. So if your
prostitute/BTL deal costs you 100 Nuyen, you're shelling out 112
(arbitrary) for the deal. This is just to keep your privacy. Why would
you want to go so far as to keep your privacy?

IIRC, anytime you slot your credstick (unless it's certified cred), you're
giving the payee access to your entire credit line (to look at, not
necessarily to take), credit history, personal info including debts,
location of residence, employment, family, etc. It's far to easy to hang
onto that information for the purposes of blackmail and/or robbery later,
and Mafia/Yakuza or even high-end pimps or BTL franchises would have the
resources and probably the inclination to keep such information when you
slot your 100 Nuyen.

The original purpose of this post (prior to all the digressions) was to
advocate a "shadier side" of monetary transactions, involving cash.
Hookers, BTLs, slipping the bouncer a bribe to let you into the club, all
these things make much more sense to have cash around. So in the games I
play in/run, cash ends up being the "shadow" currency. Cash exists
because sometimes the cred readers are broken, and it really sucks to be
trapped with a useless credstick when they won't accept it. But the
tremendous upside to this is that a great many bribes, shadowruns, or any
transactions when someone wants anonymity take place in cash.

Andy

--
Andy Minor
Andyman@****.net
Message no. 21
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:34:37 -0700
From: "Dennis Steinmeijer" <dv8@********.nl>
To: <shadowrn@*********.org>
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date sent: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:14:48 +0200
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> DV8 wrote:
> > The point I was trying to make is that Organised Crime moves hundreds
> > of thousands of units of BTL and flesh every <insert time period> It
> > would be tough to explain to the bank manager when you show up with
> > wheelbarrows full of certsticks. :) I presume that those credswipers
> > you mention would'nt be able to tranfer funds without the codes needed
> > to ID the original account they came from. Banking systems today work
> > in much the same way and I can only see the level of paranoid tracking
> > increasing in the 2050's and 60's
>
> The bank managers can be bought, and there's always the option of
> moneylaundring. It would be more difficult than it is now, but criminal
> organizations get more inventive at every turn.

As I see it the advent of the credstick and matrix may have made
moneylaundering easier rather then harder. This is based on the assumption
that Certified credsticks are a bearer instrument that is tied to a bank
account some where. That is the credstick lets the bearer to spend any or all
money in the account when ever they want and while the there would be a
record of the transaction it would be only tied to the account and not who
made the transaction unless the authorities caught you with the credstick in
your possession.

To launder funds you need at least 3 certified credsticks. At least two are
from an offshore account. One you use to collect money from third parties.
You use a credstick transfer device. The device can be either on or of line
and the third parties credstick can be of either type. When you are done
collecting money you buy a candy bar or equivilent from a repuable business
as this transaction would cause all "off line" transactions to be posted. You
then transfer all but 10-100 neuyen to the second stick (the off shore
account) using a portable online transfer device. Then you return the first
stick into circulation. That way you can't be caught with it and further
transactions are placed on making tracing transactions involving it harder.
You then wire transfer the funds on the second stick to a credstick held by
an accomplice located in the same city as the off shore bank. He then
cashes out the certified credstick taking cash, which he then takes down the
street and deposits it in to yet another account. This account could either be
for a individual or corporation or another certified credstick account. You
then return the second stick into circulation and it would be almost impossible
to link the original transaction to the final destination of the funds.

With an increase in risk you could skip the off-shore transfer and cash
movement.

As to Cash, a cashless economy sounds good and may be a cops and tax
collectors dream but it will not work.The problem is small transfers, the single
candy bar, the daily newspaper or a cup of coffee to name a few. I costs
the same to do the "paperwork" on these transactions as it does a large one
like the purchase of a car. The question is who pays? If you charge either
the custumor or the seller the final or real cost of the candy bar is out of line
with its value and the sale would not happen. Charge high enough fees on the
big transactions to cover the costs on the little transactions and the big boys
will scream and they are large enough to be heard. By the way do not forget
that the criminal element moves enough money through the system in
legitimate and semi-legitmate transaction to have a big say in this matter.The
best solution is to retain cash for "small" purchases. which means money to
make the grey and black markets work. And given the number of SINless
individuals we know that a major grey and black market exists.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 22
From: Starrngr@***.com Starrngr@***.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:55:41 EDT
In a message dated 6/30/99 6:57:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
gyro@********.co.za writes:

> The point I was trying to make is that Organised Crime moves hundreds
> of thousands of units of BTL and flesh every <insert time period> It
> would be tough to explain to the bank manager when you show up with
> wheelbarrows full of certsticks. :) I presume that those credswipers
> you mention would'nt be able to tranfer funds without the codes needed
> to ID the original account they came from. Banking systems today work
> in much the same way and I can only see the level of paranoid tracking
> increasing in the 2050's and 60's

Not true. Certified credsticks are the equivalent of bearer bonds. The only
information linked to them is the balance in the account. Nor does a stick
to stick transfer neccecarily keep any of that information, just that you
paid X cred to someone else and therefore you dont have it.

Why? because Megacorps own the banks and they want to be able to keep their
hands clean.
Message no. 23
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:26:18 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> Not true. Certified credsticks are the equivalent of bearer bonds.
The only information linked to them is the balance in the account. Nor
does a stick to stick transfer neccecarily keep any of that
information, just that you paid X cred to someone else and therefore
you dont have it.
>
> Why? because Megacorps own the banks and they want to be able to
keep their hands clean.

...and no...

According to the Lone Star sourcebook, the CASH on the stick can't be
traced, but the stick itself very possibly can be - reason being, the
stick contains a computer chip which records the actual 'cash value' of
the stick. The bank that ISSUES the stick keeps a record of the chip's
serial number. So this may or may not be a problem. A bank belonging to
an extra-territorial empire doesn't have to provide info to the cops,
and, depending on just who it belongs to, may or may not decide to
help. You're in trouble if you've been screwing with the bosses of that
bank, though. A local bank, on the other hand, is more likely to
cooperate with the cops.

But don't forget, the cops STILL have to tie the stick to you. If the
cops have been tracking a stick from one person to another, you can end
that particular problem by transferring the cred to another stick and
then DESTROYING the stick (i.e. slag it down completely). A handy blast
furnace will do the trick.

As a matter of fact, that's a good tip for runners. NEVER keep the
stick your Johnson gives you. Transfer the cred to a stick of your own
and destroy the Johnson's stick. That way, any problems along that line
of inquiry that you don't know about can't be traced to you.

*Doc' starts stuffing unidentified items into the trash compactor.
"What? Sticks? No no no, these are just, uh...empty pens...yes, that'll do..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 24
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT)
<Snippola(TM)>
> As I see it the advent of the credstick and matrix may have made
moneylaundering easier rather then harder. This is based on the
assumption that Certified credsticks are a bearer instrument that is
tied to a bank account some where. That is the credstick lets the
bearer to spend any or all money in the account when ever they want and
while the there would be a record of the transaction it would be only
tied to the account and not who made the transaction unless the
authorities caught you with the credstick in your possession.
<BigSnip(TM)>
> David Hinkley

Sorry, David - flawed assumption. That is NOT how a certified credstick
works. That IS how standard, personalised credsticks work, though.

A certified credstick is the equivalent of hard cash, where as a
personalised one is more like a chequing account (although more
immediate). You buy the certified stick with a certain amount of money
on it. 1k, 5k, 10k, etc. etc. That stick is then computerised cash to
that value. It is NOT a link to an account somewhere. The stick IS the
money. Thus, if you give someone the stick, they don't get control over
an account, they get the money that's on the stick.

You follow, or does my explaining suck (as usual)? :)

*Doc' sighs in disappointment. The problem with credsticks is that they
don't burn as well or as long as paper money. You have to spend SO much
to heat your house...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 25
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:04:50 -0500
> In any case I see a valuable use for cash in the
> SR game and in my world such cash is a polymer
> note with some kind of synthetic coins.

Ditto for the local game here. You wouldn't happen to have an address with
more info on polymer bills, would you?

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 26
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:10:27 -0400 (EDT)
On Wed, 30 Jun 1999, DV8 wrote:

> In all my exploration of organised and street crime, I have noticed a
> proliferation of cash. That's what crime is all about after all, money
> and power.
>
> In the cashless or near cashless future that Shadowrun proposes, how
> exactly do the street dealers, ladies of the night and enforcers do
> business? In certified sticks? I dont think so and here's why. It's a
> drag. Popping down the local bank to get a certstick everytime you
> need a beetle fix would be a giant pain in the rear.
> Also, many people do not trust banks and other financial institutions.
> Many of the poor will not earn enough to qualify for credticks or will
> not be able to feed their families and pay the bank charges associated
> with advanced tech like a Cstick.
>
> Can you be traced by transactions made by certified credstick? Given
> the level of paranoia prevalent in the Information Age, I would think
> that the personal details of person who applies for the certstick
> would be carried over onto it.
>
> In my games, cash is king. Electronic funds are widely used for larger
> transactions and by the middle and upper classes, which represent a
> small percentage of the population but a large percentage of the
> gross turnover. This has also helped me with a rationale for any of
> the crime syndicates still being in operation.
>
> Any thoughts?
> - - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>
>
> <hard@****>
>
>

I believe canon material states that electronic money is the order of the
day, and that most shops look on with "disdain" when one tries to purchase
that Nuke 'em burger with cash. Corp scrip, however, is still popular.

With criminal organizations, it would be unlikely that their street level
transactions would be conducted in certified cred, but since trading in
corp scrip is a big black market activity and since most criminal
organizations adore the black market, you see where I'm going with this?
=) Joe Schmoe the chiphead mugs the Raku mid manager slumming in the
Barrens. He gets a credstick that he can't cash and a bunch of raku corp
scrip. He goes to his local dealer, who offers him a few chips in exchange
for all that stuff that Joe can't use. The dealer then trades it in with
his fixer, which then moves it up to his connection to the Yaks, and so
on. =) That is how I see it working for the most part.

Another possibility is to use pocket secretaries. If anyone has seen
TekWar the TV series, in that very first episode, the main character
touches two "credsticks" together and authorizes a transfer. With
a pocket secretary, something of that nature could be done.

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 27
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:44:20 +1000
On shadowrn@*********.org, Patrick Goodman[SMTP:remo@***.net] wrote:
> > In any case I see a valuable use for cash in the
> > SR game and in my world such cash is a polymer
> > note with some kind of synthetic coins.
>
> Ditto for the local game here. You wouldn't happen to have an address
with
> more info on polymer bills, would you?

I had a quick look at the Reserve Bank of Australia's site. The info is
pretty lame there, but the page on the manufacturing process might
interest you. The URL is http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_1_4.html.

cheers
G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 28
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:36:13 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Manx wrote:

> At 11:12 30/06/99 +0200 DV8 wrote
>
> Here's a little side note about the cash discussion.
>
> I personally like the idea of the existance of hard
> currency. Opening a briefcase at a meet with a fixer
> to reveal a lone credstick just doesn't have the same
> feel as a case full of used notes.

How true, but there is nothing quite like someone's eyes lighting up when
slotting a stick and seeing an one with a bunch of zeros popping up behind
it.

> There has not been one recorded case of anyone forging
> our polymer notes.
>

w00. Sounds like a challenge to me. =P I suspect that the federal
government of Aust wouldn't release reports of polymer forgery if they did
exist. Why encourage a crime that everyone "knows" is impossible?

On a side note, does polymer money mean you literally have "plastic
money"?

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 29
From: Geoff Skellams geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:44:20 +1000
On shadowrn@*********.org, Patrick Goodman[SMTP:remo@***.net] wrote:
> > In any case I see a valuable use for cash in the
> > SR game and in my world such cash is a polymer
> > note with some kind of synthetic coins.
>
> Ditto for the local game here. You wouldn't happen to have an address
with
> more info on polymer bills, would you?

I had a quick look at the Reserve Bank of Australia's site. The info is
pretty lame there, but the page on the manufacturing process might
interest you. The URL is http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_1_4.html.

cheers
G

--
Geoff Skellams R&D - Tower Software
Email Address: geoff.skellams@*********.com.au
Homepage: http://www.towersoft.com.au/staff/geoff/
ICQ Number: 2815165

Hili hewa ka mana'o ke 'ole ke kukakuka
(Ideas run wild without discussion)
Message no. 30
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:13:09 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 15:25 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> That is only because the machinery needed to reproduce those notes is
> expenisve and hard to come by. Watch the PRC, NorKor and Iran. Those
> are the sources for the best forgeries right now.

Forging money (or other documents) is a case of having the right
resources. Countries almost invariably do -- for example, during either
WWI or WWII (I forget which), both sides tried to devaluate the other's
currency by forging their money and bringing it into circulation. The
forgeries were almost impossible to detect. Individuals, or even larger
organizations, tend to have trouble finding the necessary resources to
make copies of money that are perfect enough to pass undetected for a
while.

I don't think electronic money would change this situation much. The
safeguards are different from those on paper money ("electronic
fingerprints" vs. intricate printing techniques, for example) but the
basics remain the same: given the proper resources, you can forge money.
Actually, a country would have it much easier -- all they'd need to do is
make some changes in the databases of their central bank, and they have
plenty more money. That'd be like printing paper money, of course, and
cause HUGE inflation if done with any regularity, but if done right it
might work for forging another country's money: "Our National Bank of
Verwegistan has 100,000,000 UCAS dollars? Add another 0, will you?"

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 31
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 12:13:09 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 17:43 on 30 Jun 99, the word on
the street was...

> A certified credstick is the equivalent of hard cash, where as a
> personalised one is more like a chequing account (although more
> immediate). You buy the certified stick with a certain amount of money
> on it. 1k, 5k, 10k, etc. etc. That stick is then computerised cash to
> that value. It is NOT a link to an account somewhere. The stick IS the
> money. Thus, if you give someone the stick, they don't get control over
> an account, they get the money that's on the stick.

Nice in theory, but the money would have to be at a bank somewhere as
well. If the _only_ place the money exists is on the stick, nothing is
stopping people from putting more on it -- have a bank put 100 nuyen on a
certified credstick, then link it to your computer and add another 99,900.
Hey, the banks won't know...

The way a certified credstick works, IMO (and I know this isn't the way
some SR book (Lone Star?) explains it), is by having a special account
that "belongs" to the stick, instead of to a person or organization.
Whenever you pay with the credstick, money is transferred from the stick's
account to the account of whoever is being paid.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

GC3.1: GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 32
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 02:48:03 -0700
Date sent: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:43:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org

> <Snippola(TM)>
> > As I see it the advent of the credstick and matrix may have made
> moneylaundering easier rather then harder. This is based on the
> assumption that Certified credsticks are a bearer instrument that is
> tied to a bank account some where. That is the credstick lets the
> bearer to spend any or all money in the account when ever they want and
> while the there would be a record of the transaction it would be only
> tied to the account and not who made the transaction unless the
> authorities caught you with the credstick in your possession.
> <BigSnip(TM)>
> > David Hinkley
>
> Sorry, David - flawed assumption. That is NOT how a certified credstick
> works. That IS how standard, personalised credsticks work, though.
>
> A certified credstick is the equivalent of hard cash, where as a
> personalised one is more like a chequing account (although more
> immediate). You buy the certified stick with a certain amount of money
> on it. 1k, 5k, 10k, etc. etc. That stick is then computerised cash to
> that value. It is NOT a link to an account somewhere. The stick IS the
> money. Thus, if you give someone the stick, they don't get control over
> an account, they get the money that's on the stick.
>
> You follow, or does my explaining suck (as usual)? :)

I follow but I am not sure that I agree, here is my reasoning that got me to
come to the conculsion that there is an "account" associated with each
certified credstick. Fraud, that is modifing a stick to change the value
upward. Granted there are internal protections but there is more then a
theoretical chance that someone could defeat them. But if each certified
credstick points back to an account there is something to check the stick
balance against. The system exists for SIN based sticks, so why not use it as
a back-up for certified credstick security?. Remember its bankers who wear
both a belt and suspenders.

By the way the existance of a account tied a certified credstiks does not
change how they work or the traceablity. It is just some chrome to add color
to the game.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 33
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:49:15 -0400
At 17.26 06-30-99 -0700, you wrote:
>stick contains a computer chip which records the actual 'cash value' of
>the stick. The bank that ISSUES the stick keeps a record of the chip's

Then someone (your local mafia, yakuza or tong wholesaler) sets up a
counterfiter. Say, 100¥ worth of sterile cash for 150¥ worth of goods.
It's no worse than dealing with a fence for cash, simply because you can
use the stick anywhere without anyone else raising any eyebrows.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 34
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 08:03:32 -0400
I either have had a brainstorm or a stroke.....
No, I can type, so it must be a brainstorm.

Nationals issue money. Corporates issue money in the form of scrip. What
is to say that folks like the yakuza and mafia can issue scrip? It could
only be used at issuing family's operations, or at a slight loss at thier
allies. You get the bills in exgange for goods or services at a slightly
better price than for "real" money, but since you can be seen with it
anywheres else, the penalties are greater than the bonuses in most cases.
I can also see opposing houses trying to devaluate a currency, or forge it.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 35
From: Patrick Goodman remo@***.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 07:29:58 -0500
> I had a quick look at the Reserve Bank of Australia's site. The info is
> pretty lame there, but the page on the manufacturing process might
> interest you. The URL is http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_1_4.html.

Thanks, Geoff. I'm just interested in the notion, mostly for game uses.
Appreciate the pointer.

--
(>) Texas 2-Step
El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.
Message no. 36
From: DV8 gyro@********.co.za
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:27:52 +0200
-----Original Message-----
From: IronRaven <cyberraven@********.net>
To: shadowrn@*********.org <shadowrn@*********.org>
Date: 01 July 1999 02:09
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime


> I either have had a brainstorm or a stroke.....
> No, I can type, so it must be a brainstorm.
>
> Nationals issue money. Corporates issue money in the form of scrip.
What
>is to say that folks like the yakuza and mafia can issue scrip? It
could
>only be used at issuing family's operations, or at a slight loss at
thier
>allies. You get the bills in exgange for goods or services at a
slightly
>better price than for "real" money, but since you can be seen with it
>anywheres else, the penalties are greater than the bonuses in most
cases.
> I can also see opposing houses trying to devaluate a currency, or
forge it.

I believe that Underworld orgs do issue currency in the form of
"markers"
I ran across this first in "Sprwal Sites" and honestly had no idea
what he heck they were talking about.
I have used this concept quite a bit and it works OK, as well being a
good excuse for a bit of colour.
For example, a Yak job the characters pulled off rewarded tehm with a
piece of silk ribbon embroidered (sp?) with funky Japanese symbols,
telling who issued it and what is was worth.

Pretty damn tough to forge and accept by all participating Yakuza
families. :)

- - BRUCE <gyro@********.co.za>

<hard@****>
Message no. 37
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 00:47:02 +1000
>As a matter of fact, that's a good tip for runners. NEVER keep the
>stick your Johnson gives you. Transfer the cred to a stick of your own
>and destroy the Johnson's stick. That way, any problems along that line
>of inquiry that you don't know about can't be traced to you.
>

Not only can the stick be tied to you but if your
Johnson's a nasty slot that wants you dead
or located he can have the stick 'bugged'
with some kind of tracking device.

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 38
From: Manx timburke@*******.com.au
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 1999 01:03:03 +1000
At 22:04 30/06/99 -0500 Patrick Goodman wrote
>> In any case I see a valuable use for cash in the
>> SR game and in my world such cash is a polymer
>> note with some kind of synthetic coins.
>
>Ditto for the local game here. You wouldn't happen to have an address with
>more info on polymer bills, would you?
>
>--
>(>) Texas 2-Step
> El Paso: Never surrender. Never forget. Never forgive.

Sure.

The Australian Reserve Bank has some info.
Check out the links below.

http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_1_4.html
http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_cur_no.html
This link shows what our polymer notes look like.
http://www.rba.gov.au/poly/po_who.html

This one is not bad either
http://www.molsci.csiro.au/research/applied/bank.html

__________________________________
Manx // timburke@*******.com.au // #950
"It's always funny until someone gets hurt
and then it's just hilarious." - Faith No More
__________________________________
Message no. 39
From: runnerpaul@*****.com runnerpaul@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:41:04 -0400 (EDT)
To: shadowrn@*********.org
From: Paul Gettle <RunnerPaul@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----


At 11:10 PM 6/30/99 -0400, kawaii wrote:
>I believe canon material states that electronic money is the order of


>the
>day, and that most shops look on with "disdain" when one tries to
>purchase
>that Nuke 'em burger with cash. Corp scrip, however, is still
>popular.


I don't know about the "disdain" part of it, but I did come across a
reference in my recently bought copy of NAN1 (yes, recently bought;
I've been filling in gaps of OOP books in my SR collection) about cash
the other day:


NAN1, p.101 [Emphasis on the word 'few' added by me.]
"...the Sioux nation is one of the _FEW_ that still mints cash. One,
five and ten nuyen coins are made of metalized plastic, and coated
mylar bills come in denominations up to 1K nuyen."


Of course, this canon quote leaves much of the issue up in the air.
Sure there might only be a 'few' countries minting cash, but those
countries could include economic superpowers like the UCAS and Japan.


Even with just a few nations minting currency, those nations'
currencies would most likely be found in shadow economies the world
over. In contemporary times, for example, terrorist organizations
partially bankroll their operations by counterfeiting US currency.
There are a couple of reasons for this, one being the fact that US
currency is generally easier to counterfeit than other countries'
notes, but secondly, the fact that US currency is almost universally
recognizable and generally accepted for conversion to whatever the
local currency is.


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Version: PGP Personal Privacy 6.0.2


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--
-- Paul Gettle, #186 of 1000 (RunnerPaul@*****.com)
PGP Fingerprint, Key ID:0x48F3AACD (RSA 1024, created 98/06/26)
C260 94B3 6722 6A25 63F8 0690 9EA2 3344

---------------------------------------------------
Get free personalized email at http://www.iname.com
Message no. 40
From: Ulrich Haupt sandman@****.uni-oldenburg.de
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 18:11:46 +0200
Gurth wrote:
<snipp>

> Nice in theory, but the money would have to be at a bank somewhere as
> well. If the _only_ place the money exists is on the stick, nothing is
> stopping people from putting more on it -- have a bank put 100 nuyen on a
> certified credstick, then link it to your computer and add another 99,900.
> Hey, the banks won't know...

Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
card. Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous
ones with no connection to a bank account. I think there
shall be some 'cash points' somwwhere where you can pay
money into the machine and it put's the amount onto you
card. I know you can do it at any bank offices. It works the
same way as Rand described the certified stick except there
is a limitation of DM 400 (230 U$). And if you are capable
of cheating the encryption system on the card you can
'refill' your card. Of course the bank promises that such
can't be.

BTW I didn't see any place except telephone cells that
except this cards. Maybe other german list members knows more?

Sandman
Message no. 41
From: Matt Wilshin M.Wilshin@******.ac.uk
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:17:48 +0100
Ulrich Haupt wrote:

>
> Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
> draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
> card. Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous
> ones with no connection to a bank account. I think there
> shall be some 'cash points' somwwhere where you can pay
> money into the machine and it put's the amount onto you
> card. I know you can do it at any bank offices. It works the
> same way as Rand described the certified stick except there
> is a limitation of DM 400 (230 U$). And if you are capable
> of cheating the encryption system on the card you can
> 'refill' your card. Of course the bank promises that such
> can't be.
>
> BTW I didn't see any place except telephone cells that
> except this cards. Maybe other german list members knows more?
>
> Sandman

We've got something simliar in Exeter called Mondex. Everyone at the University
has a credit card sized card with a microchip built in which can hold up to £50
on it. The cards can also be used as ID cards and for access control into
buildings. Some websites with a bit more info are:

http://www.ex.ac.uk/modex

http://www.modex.co.uk/

--
--------------------------------------------------------
Matt 'Rapidly expanding .sig' Wilshin
http://members.xoom.com/wilshin/
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~se95mw/
http://gosh.ex.ac.uk/~se95mw/
-------------------
"A clever bluff, Agent N42, but not clever enough. You see, right
away I recognized your `pistol' as a cleverly disguised cigarette lighter."
---------------------
University of Exeter
***NEW. Telephone no: 01392 675291 ***
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 42
From: Matt Wilshin M.Wilshin@******.ac.uk
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:26:20 +0100
Matt Wilshin wrote:

> buildings. Some websites with a bit more info are:
>
> http://www.ex.ac.uk/modex
>
> http://www.modex.co.uk/

Sorry, those are
http://www.ex.ac.uk/mondex
and
http://www.mondex.co.uk/

Must learn to reread my typing :-)
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Matt 'Rapidly expanding .sig' Wilshin
http://members.xoom.com/wilshin/
http://www.ex.ac.uk/~se95mw/
http://gosh.ex.ac.uk/~se95mw/
-------------------
"A clever bluff, Agent N42, but not clever enough. You see, right
away I recognized your `pistol' as a cleverly disguised cigarette lighter."
---------------------
University of Exeter
***NEW. Telephone no: 01392 675291 ***
--------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 43
From: Mongoose m0ng005e@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:12:22 -0500
http://: Nationals issue money. Corporates issue money in the form of
scrip. What
:is to say that folks like the yakuza and mafia can issue scrip? It could
:only be used at issuing family's operations, or at a slight loss at thier
:allies. You get the bills in exgange for goods or services at a slightly
:better price than for "real" money, but since you can be seen with it
:anywheres else, the penalties are greater than the bonuses in most cases.
: I can also see opposing houses trying to devaluate a currency, or forge
it.


Major organized crime groups might buy into corporations and use their
currency, but they would NOT issue their own. Heck, it goes against the
very concept... If nothing else, a crime bosses word should be his bond- if
he says he owes you, then thats as good as cash - or, more to the point, any
script the issued would only be as good as their word.
In any case, organized crime doesn't NEED script. They have a system of
barter for goods, influence, and so forth - its a "cashless economy", in
some ways primitive as the stone-age, in some ways as sophisticated as the
ZOG bank.

Mongoose
Message no. 44
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 13:23:53 -0400
At 18.11 07-01-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
>draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
>card. Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous

They use the same kind of thing at my college, but only the laundry
machines accept the card. Based off the promo paper that was with the
initial card, they are used in other schools for just about everything.
Prepaid calling cards are pretty much the same idea.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 45
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:32:36 +0200
And finally, Ulrich Haupt expressed himself by typing:

> Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
> draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
> card. Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous
> ones with no connection to a bank account. I think there
> shall be some 'cash points' somwwhere where you can pay
> money into the machine and it put's the amount onto you
> card. I know you can do it at any bank offices. It works the
> same way as Rand described the certified stick except there
> is a limitation of DM 400 (230 U$). And if you are capable
> of cheating the encryption system on the card you can
> 'refill' your card. Of course the bank promises that such
> can't be.

I would expect the security measures to include some checks
with the providing banks database, or at least to store some
information on the card for later check. This would be a really
simple way to hinder forgery or cheating of the card.
If you spend more money this way than putting on the card
int the first place, uh oh...

> BTW I didn't see any place except telephone cells that
> except this cards. Maybe other german list members knows more?

Most gas stations and shopping centers accept it, as do
many shops who offer Electronic Cash services...

Electronic Cash in Germany means pay-by-Bank card, BTW.
"Geld Karte", Money card would be the english word, is the
thing Ulrich described above.

--
arclight

"Die Gegenwart neigt zu Egoismus zu Lasten der Zukunft"
- Johannes Rau
Message no. 46
From: Sommers sommers@*****.edu
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 13:32:36 -0400
At 01:23 PM 7/1/99 -0400, IronRaven wrote:
>At 18.11 07-01-99 +0200, you wrote:
> >Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
> >draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
> >card. Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous
>
> They use the same kind of thing at my college, but only the laundry
>machines accept the card. Based off the promo paper that was with the
>initial card, they are used in other schools for just about everything.
> Prepaid calling cards are pretty much the same idea.

We have the same kind of thing at our school too. It used to be available
just for use on campus, but the local businesses complained about that so
much that a lot of them have the readers in their store now.

What I'd like to know about is the prepaid cell phones. I've seen a few
adds for them. It seems like you go into the store, drop some cash, and
walk out with a cell phone that has a prepaid limit on them. The big
selling point I read was that it didn't require a credit check. If that's
so, then it seems like a perfectly untraceable phone, the same as a pay
phone, except that you can carry it with you.

I could see all sorts of uses for that in SR....


Sommers
Insert witty quote here.
Message no. 47
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:47:10 +0200
According to IronRaven, at 8:03 on 1 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Nationals issue money. Corporates issue money in the form of scrip. What
> is to say that folks like the yakuza and mafia can issue scrip?

Of course they can. As long as they can back it with something else,
anybody can give out "money." You might call it savings coupons, air
miles, or whatever, but it's all the same thing: a piece of printed paper
that's essentially worthless, except for the fact that people _give_ it a
value.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 48
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 19:47:10 +0200
According to Ulrich Haupt, at 18:11 on 1 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Such a system is already established in Germany. You can
> draw money from your bank account and put it on a plastic
> card.

Same here in the Netherlands. I have two of them, from different banks,
and both built into the normal bank card by means of a chip, but I don't
remember the codes to "recharge" either one of them :)

> Actually it is my EC-Card but you can get anonymous
> ones with no connection to a bank account. I think there
> shall be some 'cash points' somwwhere where you can pay
> money into the machine and it put's the amount onto you
> card.

Here it works in the same way, I believe, and those issued by the post
office (which is also a bank) can be recharged in any phone booth.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 49
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:24:10 -0400
At 11.12 07-01-99 -0500, you wrote:
>very concept... If nothing else, a crime bosses word should be his bond- if

Do you have any idea how big an organized crime organizaton can get? Not
every member of that endoevor is going to know who the boss owes LITTLE
favors to. Nor are you likely to ever meet the big boss.
OC scrip would be usable for big items, but for little ones, like a drink
or a chip, or for minor services, for which I ask you to use your
imagination, it would be accepted at a higher price (say +20%, "Yah, I know
that is the advertised price, but read the fine print: it says that the
display price includes a 15% discount for REAL money").

>he says he owes you, then thats as good as cash - or, more to the point, any
>script the issued would only be as good as their word.

How is that any different from regular money. Money is only what people
think it is. All a dollar bill is is a piece of paper with some ink on it.
There is mutual agreement that it is worth roughly "X" amount, and since
the US is a major player, it is excepted everywhere. Fluctuations in the
confidence of what "X" means is the source of inflation and (rarely)
deflation.
Look at CSA currency at the end of the US Civil War, or the D-mark at the
end of WWII, or the ruble. No one had any confidence in the power backing
those currancies, and as a result, they had little value. People are
confident that America, Britian and Germany are strong. That is why the
dollar, pound, and d-mark are popular methods of getting paid if you are an
international worker. For a time, the yen looked strong, but when the
Japanese banks started to revele that they had been gutted, folks dumped
yen like they were hot coals
Even "hard" items, like gold, have relative value. An example of this is
the Incan and Aztec civilizations. The had lots of gold, and thus to them,
wasn't worth very much, about as much as steel was worth to the Spanish.
And the rest is history.

> In any case, organized crime doesn't NEED script. They have a system of
>barter for goods, influence, and so forth - its a "cashless economy", in

OK, 1 Panther cannon = 1 Volkswagon Electro = 7000 nuyen = 1/2 cow. I'll
take the money please- it's easier to carry on the bus.

>some ways primitive as the stone-age, in some ways as sophisticated as the
>ZOG bank.

Excuse me!? What precisely do you mean by that?


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 50
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 14:33:39 -0400
At 19.47 07-01-99 +0200, you wrote:
>Of course they can. As long as they can back it with something else,

Of course they can- they're the yakuza/mafia/tongs/et al, and you don't
like it, they'll make you an offer you shouldn't refuse. <g>
Actually, it was more of a lightbulb moment kind of thing, since we were
talking about the underworld economy. It was an idea for flavor. Find out
what the exchange rate is, even though it will be totally unofficial, and
you can ifgure out who has the most power right now or who is really in
charge of this part of town.
Also a way to mess with players. You buy a hot dog from a street vendor,
and much to your horror, the only folding money you have is Yak, and you
are in a Russian neighborhood, and a pickpocket made off with your sterile
cred stick. You can either pay him with your registered credstick and
posibly blow your survellance, hock your gun, or pay him 10X the going rate
for a rat suasage with saurkelp (like sauerkraut, but made with seaweed)
and hope that he doesn't tell the next enforcer he sees about your
indiscretion.


CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 51
From: kawaii kawaii@********.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 16:52:09 -0400 (EDT)
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, IronRaven wrote:

> Also a way to mess with players. You buy a hot dog from a
> street vendor, and much to your horror, the only folding money you have
> is Yak, and you are in a Russian neighborhood, and a pickpocket made off
> with your sterile cred stick. You can either pay him with your
> registered credstick and posibly blow your survellance, hock your gun,
> or pay him 10X the going rate for a rat suasage with saurkelp (like
> sauerkraut, but made with seaweed) and hope that he doesn't tell the
> next enforcer he sees about your indiscretion.
>
>
> CyberRaven Kevin Dole

Just remember that despite the widespread acceptance of the existance of
organized crime, they are still criminals. If they openly issued cash and
such, then corporations would have to put them down, if for no other
reason than PR. It may be an unspoken but widely known secret that OC
controls certain neighborhoods, but to publish money, methinks, would be
an insult tossed in the face of most governments and corps. At least the
illusion of secrecy should be kept. =)

One of the Mafia's key rules is Omerta, or Silence. Printing maf-cash with
John Gotti instead of G.Washington breaks that rule pretty much. ;) With
most other criminal orgs, the same applies. =)

Ever lovable and always scrappy,
kawaii
Message no. 52
From: IronRaven cyberraven@********.net
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 17:12:42 -0400
At 16.52 07-01-99 -0400, you wrote:
>One of the Mafia's key rules is Omerta, or Silence. Printing maf-cash with
>John Gotti instead of G.Washington breaks that rule pretty much. ;) With

Point. I forgot about omerta, although a lot of other folks have been
doing so as well, so it might not exist in fifty years.
Besides, it doesn't specifically have to mafia labeled. They could be
"barter certificates" from a co-op that is a fron for a crime family.

OK, I'm reaching a little. I really like the idea, though.




CyberRaven Kevin Dole
http://members.xoom.com/iron_raven/
"Once again, we have spat int he face of Death and his second cousin,
Dismemberment."
"Briar Rabbit to Briar Fox; I was BORN in that briar patch!"
Message no. 53
From: arclight arclight@**************.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:33:41 +0200
And finally, Sommers expressed himself by typing:

> What I'd like to know about is the prepaid cell phones. I've seen a few
> adds for them. It seems like you go into the store, drop some cash, and
> walk out with a cell phone that has a prepaid limit on them. The big
> selling point I read was that it didn't require a credit check. If that's
> so, then it seems like a perfectly untraceable phone, the same as a pay
> phone, except that you can carry it with you.
>
> I could see all sorts of uses for that in SR....

For the simplicity of thingss, I always presume my players use those
pre-paid cellulars. They never think about these things, and are in no
way paranoid enough. On their last run, the rigger used his very own
SINlinked car, and was damn near to get arrested. But then, I am too
nice to bust them anyway... have to get rid of this habit, really.

How do you handle this? Let all the wrath come down to them? Or do you
cut those messy consequences? I mean this primarily for "neglectable"
things, not important ones linked to the run they fail...

arclight
Message no. 54
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 18:22:57 -0700 (PDT)
> For the simplicity of thingss, I always presume my players use those
pre-paid cellulars. They never think about these things, and are in no
way paranoid enough. On their last run, the rigger used his very own
SINlinked car, and was damn near to get arrested. But then, I am too
nice to bust them anyway... have to get rid of this habit, really.
>
> How do you handle this? Let all the wrath come down to them? Or do
you cut those messy consequences? I mean this primarily for
"neglectable" things, not important ones linked to the run they fail...
>
> arclight

I let the little things pass. The players are not runners, never will
be and should not be EXPECTED to know enough to do everything right.
The characters, on the other hand (assuming they've got the right
background, of course) should be paranoid slots. So if it ain't big, I
assume the characters do it right, even if the players don't say they
do.

Of course, if you want to play a recent exile from corp-land, who's
lived with a sivler spoon up his hoop all his life, then, yeah, you
gotta do it all right. He's just not experienced enough to KNOW to do
things the sneaky way all the time.

Of course, he might have paranoid buddies to pick up after him...

Sure, I'll never get an Evil GM award, but I think you have to be fair
to your players. This game takes MOST of your players TOTALLY out of
their environemnt - sometimes they just can't remember to pick up every
little piece of themselves they leave behind, etc.

To those of you who play in my games, a warning. This is NOT a license
to get lazy...:)

*Doc' thinks there should be more runners called Mr. Clean. He can just
see it now. Runners armed with Uzis...and Demestos...*

*Doc'
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 55
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:34:00 +1000
Doc' writes:
> I let the little things pass. The players are not runners, never will
> be and should not be EXPECTED to know enough to do everything right.
> The characters, on the other hand (assuming they've got the right
> background, of course) should be paranoid slots. So if it ain't big, I
> assume the characters do it right, even if the players don't say they
> do.

I don't let the little things pass... what I do when I spot players making a
real bone-head of a mistake is I make a secret intelligence test for the
character, and if he passes, I point out the mistake to the player,
explaining what is wrong. If they don't fix it up, or if they fail the test,
I let consequences unroll.

Of course, this depends on how stupid a mistake it is. Forgetting to bow to
the oyaban of the yakuza fits in this category, as do other etiquette type
things. Wearing your full body suit (with "Die Fragger, Die!" painted on the
back), and walking down the heart of DownTown with your Ingram Smartguns
holstered, a bandolier of grenades for a belt, and your combat shotgun slung
over your back... well, after I finished laughing, I sent in three SWAT
teams, with helicopter support.

(The above scenario happened when the team was going for a meet at a coffee
shop in the DownTown (not all meets happen in sleazy bars, you know). When
the players got near, I asked what they were carrying. The above description
was given by the last player, and it was greeted with stunned silence by the
rest of the group... the team never did get to that meeting, and an
adventure I spent two weeks writing was put on hold for a month)

So my rule of thumb is that if it's a bone-head mistake that would be a
bone-head mistake in the so-called real world, then I don't go soft on the
players. In addition, I actively encourage players to try to think about the
situation their characters are in... that's why it's called role-playing.

--
Duct tape is like the Force: There's a Light side, a Dark side, and it
binds the Universe together.
Robert Watkins -- robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 56
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT)
> Nice in theory, but the money would have to be at a bank somewhere as
well. If the _only_ place the money exists is on the stick, nothing is
stopping people from putting more on it -- have a bank put 100 nuyen on
a certified credstick, then link it to your computer and add another
99,900. Hey, the banks won't know...
>
> The way a certified credstick works, IMO (and I know this isn't the
way some SR book (Lone Star?) explains it), is by having a special
account that "belongs" to the stick, instead of to a person or
organization. Whenever you pay with the credstick, money is transferred
from the stick's account to the account of whoever is being paid.
> Gurth@******.nl

Bugger.

You wouldn't BELIEVE the little essay I just typed up to explain all
this - and then lost. Fragging machines.

Anyway, the essence was that there are two things to prevent this.

Firstly, each credstick is colour-coded. It can only have a maximum
amount of money on it that the coding says it can. If you only want a
stick for 1k, the bank won't give you an ebony stick (which can handle
1 million, or 5 million or something like that). I reckon it'd also
have a minimum to prevent someone from getting 5001 nuyen on a 10k
stick and jacking it up to that 10k mark.

Secondly, credsticks aren't designed to create money. They only
transfer it. As I said, it's called double-entry accounting. For each
credit to your stick, there has to be an equal debit somewhere else.
Until both transactions have been registered to banks somewhere and
electronically verified, any money that changes hands can't be further
used. This doesn't apply to personal sticks, as they directly access
your account. So say you have a cert stick and someone pays you 5k onto
it. Cool. Say you had 3k on it to begin with. Cooler. Say you then go
to a shop and buy yourself a PAC for 7,200nuyen. Bzzt! Okay, now we
check. If your pal who paid you was using his personal account, you're
in good shape. The transaction has already been registered to his end,
so you paying the shopowner into his account makes this the 2nd
registering of the transaction. The bank compares, everything's legit
and you can buy your PAC. If, on the other hand, your pal used a cert
stick and hasn't yet registered the transaction, the bank can only see
your end and says, "sorry, that money isn't yours until the guy you SAY
you got it from agrees with you". Effectively, you only have 3k on your
stick and you can't buy your PAC. If, for example, you CREATED that 5k
by hacking your stick, you have the same situation. There's no
confirming registration elsewhere in the system, so the bank will never
acknowledge that money as belonging to you and will never let you spend
it.

Of course, you could try to foist it off on some other poor shmoe with
a cert stick, but that's his prob.

*Doc' starts spinning flax into certified credsticks. "Just call me
Rumpled-Kilt-Skin..."*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
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Message no. 57
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 13:39:46 +1000
Doc' gives a lovely example of how a credstick works, which I've totally
snipped. Read his post if you want his ideas. This is my post, and it's got
my ideas!

Doc pointed out that the credit on the credstick isn't available until the
transactions are validated. One example in the modern world that might make
people understand a bit clearer is how cheques.

When you get given a cheque, you can't rush out and spend the money straight
away. You have to wait until you get the cheque to a bank, deposit it, and
wait the 5 days or whatever it takes for your bank to clear the cheque. This
"clearing" process is basically a validation of the cheque.

When you make a transaction with a credstick, the transaction still has to
be cleared. If the transaction was made with a card reader, connected to the
Matrix, it would get cleared pretty much straight away. If it's a
stick-to-stick transfer, or otherwise done offline, the clearance wouldn't
happen until BOTH sticks connect to a card reader and transfer their account
details up. Again, this is a validation process. Until the validation is
done, the money isn't transferred.

In many cases, a "holding" state is entered, however. As an example, take
credit cards. If you order, say, a desk to be made, and it's going to cost
$400. The furniture place will put a hold on your card, so that you have
$400 less to spend, ensuring that the money will be there when they go to
take it out. But you are not charged the $400 (and so don't get interest put
on, or (for a saving account) don't lose the interest you are earned) until
the furniture shop puts the money through.

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com
Message no. 58
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:55:57 -0700 (PDT)
> Doc' gives a lovely example of how a credstick works, which I've
totally snipped. Read his post if you want his ideas. This is my post,
and it's got my ideas!
<Snippage(TM)>

> In many cases, a "holding" state is entered, however. As an example,
take credit cards. If you order, say, a desk to be made, and it's going
to cost $400. The furniture place will put a hold on your card, so that
you have $400 less to spend, ensuring that the money will be there when
they go to take it out. But you are not charged the $400 (and so don't
get interest put on, or (for a saving account) don't lose the interest
you are earned) until the furniture shop puts the money through.
> robert.watkins@******.com

*Doc' applauds Rober for once. "Very well put!"*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
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Message no. 59
From: Da Twink Daddy datwinkdaddy@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit, and Crime
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 23:58:06 -0500
IMC, there is no cash. Maybe this is a little unrealistic, I don't
think it is because of the way my credstick system works. I shall
expound:

All Credsticks: Have a small display along the side that allows
transactions to be entered in, etc. They are from 15-20 cm long and
about 2-3 cm in diameter at the wide end. They taper to a rounded
point. The point to semi-transparent plastic that diffuses any light
that hits it. This is because in the center of the plastic, there is
the end of a fiberoptic cable. A _very_ redundant system of flashes of
different wavelength etc. is sent 'out' this end during a transfer.
Weight is nominal. Transactions aren't finalized until the stick 'hits
the banking system.' This is done anytime it is hooked up to a
commercial-level credreader or used at a bank. Also, all credsticks a
serial numbered.

Registered Credsticks: As the cannon says, these hold your ID,
passport, permits, anything and everything you need. They can't be
used w/o your authorization, which can be anything from a 5-symbol
alphanumeric code, to a full cellular scan (they prick your finger and
analyze the blood. -- the needle is normally covered in an indention
on the wide end). They hold credit information but this is only
disclosed to those with commercial-level cred readers. Normal stck to
stick transactions con't tell the other person you've done 3 'bad'
transfers in the last 2 days. (Bad transfers = wrting a 'hot' or
'bouncy' check.) Normally these have no upper limit on the amount of
cred that can be contained on one.

Certified Credsticks: These have no ID or other personall information,
they are as close to a cash stick as you can get. There are NO
safe-guards as far as taking money off the stick you simply spcify the
amount. (Of course, it doesn't let you transfer more than you have...)
They are HARDWIRED with a maximum ammount of money that can be place
on one by the bank that produces them, and any service charge the bank
might charge is based on that maximum ammount despite how little
they may actually put on it. Also, may bank require you to have an
account to even get a certified stick, and have limits on how 'big' a
stick they will give you. Based on credit rating.

Commercial-level Cred Readers: These finalize all transactions through
them, even small businesses have them (though maybe only at rating 1
or 2). They are connected to the banking network and so you can't ever
'write a bad check' at a normal store. (They know exactly how much you
can afford.) Also, they have access to your credit record so, they can
decide if they actually wnat to finance at 0.9% for 6 months... They
can also get some ID from the stick, such as name, DOB, SIN, Eye/Hair
Color, Phenotype, _possibly_ even a picture. (It depends on the rating
of both the stick and the reader.)

Transferrs: You can transfer from any stick to a reader. Also, you can
trasfer from any stick to registered stick. You can transfer from a
registered stick to a certified stick, but you can't so certificed to
certified stick. Money never _comes_ from a reader, that money is
generally placed in the companies account and would appear on a
company stick, next time the stick was slotted. If there are multiple
stick atached to your account (Registered sticks), you might end up
seeming to gain money from a reader (as deposits into your account
just show up.) Many bank don't allow personal accounts to have
multiple sticks attached to them (unless the account is joint, then
only 2 sticks.) Commercial account may have quite a few sticks
attached to them.
Enter the transfer on the side of the from stick and then touching to
the end of the to stick and waiting for a while in enough to register
the transaction on both sticks The transaction usually takes 10-15
sec. Quite a few redundacys and checks have to go though to do stick
to stick transfers. When a transfer is done the stck notifies the
user, generally with a barely audible beep and 'DONE [click for
details]' on the display. Either can be turned off, but not both. of
course, first the stick go though a 'modem handshake' and get ready
for the transfer. Then, the from stick sends a highly encrypted
message to the other credstick. This information contains either the
bank the funds are attached to or the bank the stick was certified by
(One reason for the name certified credstick; that bank is responsible
for fraud by that credstick) and the serial number of the credstick.
It also sends some other information that the recieving credstick can
use to verify the money. (I don't
know exactly what, but for example the date -- something volatile but
predictable to verify but add complexity to spoofing attempts.) Higher
rating credsticks actually keep (and update each time they are connect
to the 'trix) a table connecting each bank to a special number (like a
bank's PIN) that is will use to make sure the bank is valid. These
credsticks can start to be troublesome sometimes. A cred reader then
does it's 'banking stuff' verifying with banks and double checking
etc. [Cred readers only do this step but they are much faster than
stick-stick transfers so both transfers complete in the same amount
of time. However, if there have been a lot of things that need to be
'downloaded' to the credstick... it might take awhile.] The receiving
stick then sends back (encrypted, again) the verification (amount,
some
other stuff.) Either stick can cancel the trasfer off at any time and
if they lose connection before completion the transfer is
automatically canceled.

Okay, I had this a little clear when I first thought about it but,
that was 2hrs. ago. The banks can keep track of all their money
because the money is always 'controlled' by a certain bank. Money
exchanges (even small ones) are easy to do, so there is no need for
cash. Things aren't finalized until both credsticks involved in the
transaction are used at the bank for in a commercial credstick reader.
When a transaction isn't finalized the money isn't considered to be
anywhere so neither party can use it. Thus, it is preferable to slot
even your certified cred every once in a while. Money is almost always
traceable... sort of.

If someone steal a 10$-bill from me and I KNOW the serial number, then
(theoretically) banks could put out a watch for that serial number and
immediately arrest them. [No, this won't be done for 10$ but, you get
the drift.] The same thing can be done for ANY credstick. However, the
people it went though (which may be quite a few) can't be caught, and
generally you won't know the serial number of your stolen credstick.
The display screen won't show it to you, though a credreader of any
rating can. (That's where the credsticks are caught... If used in any
credreader, the bank will be notified... and the credreader will
report to the user of the commercial credreader that the person with
it is a thief... <Enter LoneStar>) Also, this tends to be at least
slight resource intensive and so is only done for the SINed and only
for larger amounts of cred.

Now, this isn't exactly cannon, but is based at least in part on it. I
believe NAGRL (Sorry I don't have it.) mentioned that certified to
certified transfers are not allowed (see above), but I don't really
see a reason why. It is probably just another step to prevent fraud.
However, each transaction is only completed when both credsticks hit
the 'trix, and each transaction has both serial numbers attached to it
and both banks.

--Enough of my rambling, comments are appreciated.

Da Twink Daddy
bss03@*******.uark.edu
ICQ# 514984
Message no. 60
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 11:33:06 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 20:21 on 1 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> You wouldn't BELIEVE the little essay I just typed up to explain all
> this - and then lost. Fragging machines.

If your computer asks you "Are you sure?", you read the rest of the
question thoroughly before clicking on any buttons :)

> Firstly, each credstick is colour-coded. It can only have a maximum
> amount of money on it that the coding says it can. If you only want a
> stick for 1k, the bank won't give you an ebony stick (which can handle
> 1 million, or 5 million or something like that). I reckon it'd also
> have a minimum to prevent someone from getting 5001 nuyen on a 10k
> stick and jacking it up to that 10k mark.

Those only make it slightly more difficult, and reduce the profit margins
involved, but they certainly don't make it impossible to forge money by
"creating" it on a certified credstick.

> Secondly, credsticks aren't designed to create money. They only
> transfer it. As I said, it's called double-entry accounting. For each
> credit to your stick, there has to be an equal debit somewhere else.

It seems to me that this method is more cumbersome than linking an account
to the credstick and treating it as any other (person-linked) account with
associated credstick.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 61
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:32:45 +0100
In article <003e01bec3de$2acd3480$793ef1cf@****>, Mongoose
<m0ng005e@*********.com> writes
> Major organized crime groups might buy into corporations and use their
>currency, but they would NOT issue their own.

MCT supposedly equals a Yakuza front and _they_ issue their own
currency...

Where, exactly, does organised crime become legitimate (if
extraterritorial) business?


--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 62
From: Paul J. Adam Paul@********.demon.co.uk
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 1999 22:30:19 +0100
In article <4.2.0.58.19990701132920.00972500@*****.engin.umich.edu>,
Sommers <sommers@*****.edu> writes
>What I'd like to know about is the prepaid cell phones. I've seen a few
>adds for them. It seems like you go into the store, drop some cash, and
>walk out with a cell phone that has a prepaid limit on them. The big
>selling point I read was that it didn't require a credit check. If that's
>so, then it seems like a perfectly untraceable phone, the same as a pay
>phone, except that you can carry it with you.
>
>I could see all sorts of uses for that in SR....

Five hundred bucks for a cellphone in 2060? I say, for that money, you buy
the handset and a lifetime connection and that's it as far as billing goes.
Lose the phone, then you either claim on your insurance or else shell out
another five hundred...

--
Paul J. Adam
Message no. 63
From: Oliver McDonald oliver@*********.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Mon, 05 Jul 1999 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT)
On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT), Rand Ratinac wrote:

>> Nice in theory, but the money would have to be at a bank somewhere as
>well. If the _only_ place the money exists is on the stick, nothing is
>stopping people from putting more on it -- have a bank put 100 nuyen on
>a certified credstick, then link it to your computer and add another
>99,900. Hey, the banks won't know...
>>
>> The way a certified credstick works, IMO (and I know this isn't the
>way some SR book (Lone Star?) explains it), is by having a special
>account that "belongs" to the stick, instead of to a person or
>organization. Whenever you pay with the credstick, money is transferred
>from the stick's account to the account of whoever is being paid.
>> Gurth@******.nl
>
>Bugger.
>
>You wouldn't BELIEVE the little essay I just typed up to explain all
>this - and then lost. Fragging machines.
>
>Anyway, the essence was that there are two things to prevent this.
>
>Firstly, each credstick is colour-coded. It can only have a maximum
>amount of money on it that the coding says it can. If you only want a
>stick for 1k, the bank won't give you an ebony stick (which can handle
>1 million, or 5 million or something like that). I reckon it'd also
>have a minimum to prevent someone from getting 5001 nuyen on a 10k
>stick and jacking it up to that 10k mark.
>
>Secondly, credsticks aren't designed to create money. They only
>transfer it. As I said, it's called double-entry accounting. For each
>credit to your stick, there has to be an equal debit somewhere else.
>Until both transactions have been registered to banks somewhere and
>electronically verified, any money that changes hands can't be further
>used. This doesn't apply to personal sticks, as they directly access
>your account. So say you have a cert stick and someone pays you 5k onto
>it. Cool. Say you had 3k on it to begin with. Cooler. Say you then go
>to a shop and buy yourself a PAC for 7,200nuyen. Bzzt! Okay, now we
>check. If your pal who paid you was using his personal account, you're
>in good shape. The transaction has already been registered to his end,
>so you paying the shopowner into his account makes this the 2nd
>registering of the transaction. The bank compares, everything's legit
>and you can buy your PAC. If, on the other hand, your pal used a cert
>stick and hasn't yet registered the transaction, the bank can only see
>your end and says, "sorry, that money isn't yours until the guy you SAY
>you got it from agrees with you". Effectively, you only have 3k on your
>stick and you can't buy your PAC. If, for example, you CREATED that 5k
>by hacking your stick, you have the same situation. There's no
>confirming registration elsewhere in the system, so the bank will never
>acknowledge that money as belonging to you and will never let you spend
>it.
>
>Of course, you could try to foist it off on some other poor shmoe with
>a cert stick, but that's his prob.
>
>*Doc' starts spinning flax into certified credsticks. "Just call me
Rumpled-Kilt-Skin..."*
>==>Doc'
>(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)
>
>.sig Sauer
>_________________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>

-----------------------------------------------------------
Oliver McDonald - oliver@*********.com
http://web2.spydernet.com/oliver/
-----------------------------------------------------------
Space. The Final Frontier. Let's not close it down.
Brought to you via CyberSpace, the recursive frontier.

"that is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may
die."
-H.P. Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu."

ICQ: 38158540
Message no. 64
From: Rand Ratinac docwagon101@*****.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
> > You wouldn't BELIEVE the little essay I just typed up to explain
all this - and then lost. Fragging machines.
>
> If your computer asks you "Are you sure?", you read the rest of the
question thoroughly before clicking on any buttons :)

Smartass. :)

> > Firstly, each credstick is colour-coded. It can only have a maximum
amount of money on it that the coding says it can. If you only want a
stick for 1k, the bank won't give you an ebony stick (which can handle
1 million, or 5 million or something like that). I reckon it'd also
have a minimum to prevent someone from getting 5001 nuyen on a 10k
stick and jacking it up to that 10k mark.
>
> Those only make it slightly more difficult, and reduce the profit
margins involved, but they certainly don't make it impossible to forge
money by "creating" it on a certified credstick.

True - it's the rest that makes it nigh impossible.

> > Secondly, credsticks aren't designed to create money. They only
transfer it. As I said, it's called double-entry accounting. For each
credit to your stick, there has to be an equal debit somewhere else.
>
> It seems to me that this method is more cumbersome than linking an
account to the credstick and treating it as any other (person-linked)
account with associated credstick.
> Gurth@******.nl

Cumbersome, yes, but that ain't the point. The POINT is to have
traceless money. Why else would you have something like that? I mean,
really - all anyone would have to do to create a total police state
would be to create the credstick concept and NOT have certified
credsticks or hard cash. Certified credsticks allow corps and
governments and other such people to do naughty things without being
caught, and that doesn't exactly work with your account-linked concept,
Gurth.

So, sure, this may be more cumbersome, but it's a hell of a lot better
from a runner's (or a runner-hiring-corp's) point of view.

*Doc' creates the combination credstick/dildo, and...errr...no, better
leave that alone...*
==Doc'
(aka Mr. Freaky Big, Super-Dynamic Troll of Tomorrow)

.sig Sauer
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @*****.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
Message no. 65
From: Gurth gurth@******.nl
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 12:07:06 +0200
According to Rand Ratinac, at 0:33 on 6 Jul 99, the word on
the street was...

> Cumbersome, yes, but that ain't the point. The POINT is to have
> traceless money.

That's the cause of our different views: I've always thought of certified
credsticks as a convenient way of transferring money to someone else,
rather than as specifically designed to be difficult or impossible to
trace.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
E-mails uit het verleden bieden geen garantie voor de toekomst.
-> ShadowRN GridSec * Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
->The Plastic Warriors Page: http://shadowrun.html.com/plasticwarriors/<-
-> The New Character Mortuary: http://www.electricferret.com/mortuary/ <-

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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 66
From: David Hinkley dhinkley@***.org
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 00:30:00 -0700
Date sent: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 00:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Rand Ratinac <docwagon101@*****.com>
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit and Crime
To: shadowrn@*********.org
Send reply to: shadowrn@*********.org


> > > Secondly, credsticks aren't designed to create money. They only
> transfer it. As I said, it's called double-entry accounting. For each
> credit to your stick, there has to be an equal debit somewhere else.
> >
> > It seems to me that this method is more cumbersome than linking an
> account to the credstick and treating it as any other (person-linked)
> account with associated credstick.
> > Gurth@******.nl
>
> Cumbersome, yes, but that ain't the point. The POINT is to have
> traceless money. Why else would you have something like that? I mean,
> really - all anyone would have to do to create a total police state
> would be to create the credstick concept and NOT have certified
> credsticks or hard cash. Certified credsticks allow corps and
> governments and other such people to do naughty things without being
> caught, and that doesn't exactly work with your account-linked concept,
> Gurth.
>
> So, sure, this may be more cumbersome, but it's a hell of a lot better
> from a runner's (or a runner-hiring-corp's) point of view.
>

I was one of the first to put forward the account linked certified credstick. As
I see it a the account linked method is traceless, there are only two people
who know the amount in the account, the holder and the bank, and only the
holder knows who controls the funds. Yes, the bank may have a record of the
transactions, the duration or more likely the lack there of would be part of
the "services" provided by the issuing bank. But a short term record must be
kept to make the stick only system work. The system permits a the holder to
use the stick in the same number of naughty things. At the same time it is
more tamper resitant which makes it more acceptable in commerce,
particularly when it is unlikely that legal rememities are available to one or
both parties should tampering be discovered.




David Hinkley
dhinkley@***.org

===================================================Those who are too intelligent to engage
in politics
are punished by being governed by those who are not
--Plato
Message no. 67
From: Robert Watkins robert.watkins@******.com
Subject: Cash, Credit and Crime
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 15:08:24 +1000
> > There has not been one recorded case of anyone forging
> > our polymer notes.
> >
>
> w00. Sounds like a challenge to me. =P I suspect that the federal
> government of Aust wouldn't release reports of polymer forgery if they did
> exist. Why encourage a crime that everyone "knows" is impossible?

Australia isn't the only country in the world to use polymer notes. And, for
the record: there have been lots of ATTEMPTS at forging the notes, but while
several pass the appearance test (at least at a cursory level), none have
passed the texture test... they don't feel right. All such attempts have
been made by domestic groups, mostly amateurs. International groups with the
resources to do successful counterfeiting don't tend to both with the
polymer notes... for about 1% of the investment, you can make quite passable
US$100 notes, you know. :)

> On a side note, does polymer money mean you literally have "plastic
> money"?

Yes, it does. Our money is plastic, and we don't have to spend ages figuring
out if that's a ten or twenty that we just pulled out. :) (In addition to
the multiple colours, different notes are different sizes... a hundred
dollar note is literally bigger than a twenty. Aids the visually impaired)

--
.sig deleted to conserve electrons. robert.watkins@******.com

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Cash, Credit and Crime, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!