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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 01:40:01 2002
I think it is a good idea to do this, Adam. But I
think having a dowloadable version is even better,
because there are all kinds of computers out there, so
making a CD ROM of all Shadowrun® books for all types
of computers could get expensive. May be less costly
to put it up on the internet and let people download
it!

I know I'd like an e-book version of the old Universal
Brotherhood Sourcebook, but have turned up zippo
looking for it!

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com
Message no. 2
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Chris Beilby)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 01:50:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hiller" <scotthiller2002@*****.com>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 1:46 AM
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun


> I think it is a good idea to do this, Adam. But I
> think having a dowloadable version is even better,
> because there are all kinds of computers out there, so
> making a CD ROM of all Shadowrun® books for all types
> of computers could get expensive. May be less costly
> to put it up on the internet and let people download
> it!

While there are many, many different computer manufacturers out there, there
are really only three Operating Systems that have to be considered for this:
UNIX and it's deravitives, Windows, and MacOS.
Message no. 3
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Downtym)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 04:15:00 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Chris Beilby wrote:

> While there are many, many different computer manufacturers out there, there
> are really only three Operating Systems that have to be considered for this:
> UNIX and it's deravitives, Windows, and MacOS.

Um. Just put the documents in HTML or .pdf format...Last time I
looked, those were the two universal formats. And if all else fails,
plaintext. Personally, I'd prefer a CD-ROM with HTML on it than having
to download it off of the internet. Faster, easier to make
hardcopies, and you'd probably get a nifty cd-sleeve with it. =)

My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the
single cross-platform format. While putting it up on a webpage is an
idea, you have to pay for bandwith, storage, etc. I think it's just a
better idea to throw it all on CD and say, "Hey, buy this CD!"

Downtym |
Email: gte138j@*****.gatech.edu | Post no bills
Message no. 4
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 06:10:12 2002
According to Downtym, on Mon, 25 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Um. Just put the documents in HTML or .pdf format...Last time I
> looked, those were the two universal formats. And if all else fails,
> plaintext.

But that's not the problem Scott was thinking of, I think. Different
operating systems use different methods of storing stuff on disk -- Windows
uses systems called FAT, FAT32 or NTFS (it depends on the version of
Windows) but other OSs do not. As a result, Windows refuses to see my
second hard drive because it's formatted with the Ext2 file system used by
Linux, for example.

However, this is not a problem for CD-ROMs, I think -- those all use the
same file system regardless of the type of computer they're intended for,
IIRC. This means that the main concern is using a file _format_, instead of
a file _system_, that everyone can use.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 5
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Andrew Murdoch)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 07:25:01 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Gurth wrote:

> But that's not the problem Scott was thinking of, I think. Different
> operating systems use different methods of storing stuff on disk -- Windows
> uses systems called FAT, FAT32 or NTFS (it depends on the version of
> Windows) but other OSs do not. As a result, Windows refuses to see my
> second hard drive because it's formatted with the Ext2 file system used by
> Linux, for example.
>
> However, this is not a problem for CD-ROMs, I think -- those all use the
> same file system regardless of the type of computer they're intended for,
> IIRC. This means that the main concern is using a file _format_, instead of
> a file _system_, that everyone can use.

CD-ROMs universally use the ISO-9660 file system, regardless of platform
or operating system or hardware. Ergo, it is just a matter of finding an
appropriate file format that can be viewed with commonly available
software on all platforms. (Which basically would boil down to plain
Vanilla ASCII, HTML, or PDFs.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hail, Centurion! Disclaimer: Canadian Charter of Rights
Andrew C. Murdoch and Freedoms, Section 2 (b)
toreador@***.bc.ca
http://www.fandom.ca
Message no. 6
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 08:30:01 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:17:27 -0500 (EST)
Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu> wrote:

> My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the
> single cross-platform format. While putting it up on a webpage is an
> idea, you have to pay for bandwith, storage, etc. I think it's just a
> better idea to throw it all on CD and say, "Hey, buy this CD!"

I'd personally prefer PDF, since it would allow the files to
have a layout almost identical to the original books, right down to the
placement of illustrations and other finer minutia :). And all the three major
OSes (and quite a few of the minor ones, certainly) have decent
PDF-viewers.


--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 7
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 09:00:01 2002
At 12:13 PM 2/25/2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:

>But that's not the problem Scott was thinking of, I think. Different
>operating systems use different methods of storing stuff on disk -- Windows
>uses systems called FAT, FAT32 or NTFS (it depends on the version of
>Windows) but other OSs do not. As a result, Windows refuses to see my
>second hard drive because it's formatted with the Ext2 file system used by
>Linux, for example.
>
>However, this is not a problem for CD-ROMs, I think -- those all use the
>same file system regardless of the type of computer they're intended for,
>IIRC. This means that the main concern is using a file _format_, instead of
>a file _system_, that everyone can use.

This is all irrelevant with CD-ROM. You just need to create the CD as say,
ISO 9660, or can Mac read Joliet these days anyway?
One CD would really be all that's needed. A Hybrid 9660/HFS may even be all
that's needed. It's not really all that hard at all. The biggest concern I
could see would be copy protection....
--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 8
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 12:10:02 2002
>Um. Just put the documents in HTML or .pdf format...Last time I

Yes, HTML and PDF are both pretty universal

>My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the

Here's where I disagree, PDF is much easier to format and layout like a book than HTML.
HTML is great for web pages but it's terrible for actual layout and anything book like.

-George Waksman
Message no. 9
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Justin Bell)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 12:35:01 2002
At 12:12 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, George S Waksman wrote:
> >My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the
>
>Here's where I disagree, PDF is much easier to format and layout like a
>book than HTML. HTML is great for web pages but it's terrible for actual
>layout and anything book like.

The problem with using PDF vs HTML is that PDF doesn't conform to the
screen size, so reading columns can lead to a LOT of scrolling... up and
down, up and down. HTML will generally conform to the screen size and you
just have to scroll down... But a well indexed PDF file with hyperlinks in
it would be great, so just clicking on page numbers in the index and ToC to
take you right to that section would be awesome.


--
Justin Bell
justin@******.net
Message no. 10
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Mikko V. I. Parviainen)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 12:55:00 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Bira wrote:
> I'd personally prefer PDF, since it would allow the files to
> have a layout almost identical to the original books, right down to the
> placement of illustrations and other finer minutia :). And all the three major
> OSes (and quite a few of the minor ones, certainly) have decent
> PDF-viewers.

Well, yes, but PDF is a pain to read from the screen, even with current
readers; it is meant to be printed.

I am not sure how much a book would take, nor how many books there would
be on this cd, but I think a _dual_ version could be better: both html
_and_ PDF.

Of course, this also means doubling the effort for doing it...

--
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@***.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
Message no. 11
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Graht)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 13:15:01 2002
At 12:37 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, Justin Bell wrote:
>At 12:12 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, George S Waksman wrote:
>> >My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the
>>
>>Here's where I disagree, PDF is much easier to format and layout like a
>>book than HTML. HTML is great for web pages but it's terrible for actual
>>layout and anything book like.
>
>The problem with using PDF vs HTML is that PDF doesn't conform to the
>screen size, so reading columns can lead to a LOT of scrolling... up and
>down, up and down.

Click on View, then Fit in Window ;)

To Life,
-Graht
ShadowRN Assistant Fearless Leader II
--
Message no. 12
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Michael Paff)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 13:35:06 2002
At 10:18 AM 2/25/02, Graht wrote:
>At 12:37 PM 2/25/2002 -0500, Justin Bell wrote:
>>
>>The problem with using PDF vs HTML is that PDF doesn't conform to the
>>screen size, so reading columns can lead to a LOT of scrolling... up and
>>down, up and down.
>
>Click on View, then Fit in Window ;)

And then get out your magnifying glass, unless you have a 30" monitor. :-p

Mike
Message no. 13
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Anders)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 13:45:01 2002
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bira" <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
To: <shadowrn@*********.com>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 7:35 AM
Subject: Re: CD ROM Shadowrun


:
: On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 04:17:27 -0500 (EST)
: Downtym <gte138j@*****.gatech.edu> wrote:
:
: > My vote would be HTML as it allows some formatting, images, and is the
: > single cross-platform format. While putting it up on a webpage is an
: > idea, you have to pay for bandwith, storage, etc. I think it's just a
: > better idea to throw it all on CD and say, "Hey, buy this CD!"
:
: I'd personally prefer PDF, since it would allow the files to
: have a layout almost identical to the original books, right down to the
: placement of illustrations and other finer minutia :). And all the three
major
: OSes (and quite a few of the minor ones, certainly) have decent
: PDF-viewers.
:
:Personally, I don't care about original layourt, although looking nice
would be OK. I want a system where I can easily modify the sturr,
adventures, etc. and print it out to run with without having to re-type
everything. HTML usually contains an underlying txt file, but I haven't herd
anybody say you can modify an extant pdy even with full Adobe. Please
enlighten me...
--Anders
:
Message no. 14
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 13:50:03 2002
At 11:39 25/02/2002, Michael Paff wrote:

>And then get out your magnifying glass, unless you have a 30" monitor. :-p

I tend to view PDFs at 125% - it requires a tiny bit of scrolling down and
then back up at the bottom of each columned page, but nothing too horrible,
IMO. [This is at 1152x864 on a 17" monitor, with varying PDF files from
ones I've done myself to test PDFs of actual Shadowrun products.]

Regardless, this debate has gone on without any resolution /because there
is no resolution that will satisfy everyone/ at least a half dozen times on
this list, and I think that everything has already been said this time
around. . .

Adam
--
| Editor, The Shadowrun Supplemental: http://tss.dumpshock.com |
| adamj@*********.com | http://www.talkinabout.com | UIN: 2350330 |
Message no. 15
From: shadowrn@*********.com (George S Waksman)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 15:15:01 2002
>IMO. [This is at 1152x864 on a 17" monitor, with varying PDF files from

Just a quick note about resolutions, since Acrobat is scaling the document based on screen
size it doesn't significantly matter what resolution you're using. In other words, except
for the difference in the relative sizes of program menus and status bars, a PDF file will
appear the same under different resolutions, whereas HTML will not.

-George Waksman
Message no. 16
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 20:25:01 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:00:51 +0200 (EET)
"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@**.hut.fi> wrote:

> On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Bira wrote:
> > I'd personally prefer PDF, since it would allow the files to
> > have a layout almost identical to the original books, right down to the
> > placement of illustrations and other finer minutia :). And all the three major
> > OSes (and quite a few of the minor ones, certainly) have decent
> > PDF-viewers.
>
> Well, yes, but PDF is a pain to read from the screen, even with current
> readers; it is meant to be printed.

I don't have any problems with it... I actually prefer a well layed out
PDF file to an HTML page for longer readings :).

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 17
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Bira)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Mon Feb 25 20:25:03 2002
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:54:08 -0800
"Anders" <anders@**********.com> wrote:

>Personally, I don't care about original layourt, although looking nice
>would be OK. I want a system where I can easily modify the sturr,
>adventures, etc. and print it out to run with without having to re-type
>everything. HTML usually contains an underlying txt file, but I haven't
>herd anybody say you can modify an extant pdy even with full Adobe.
>Please enlighten me...

You can always copy and paste the text (unless they disable the feature)
and then edit it in your text editor of choice. Or just make up your own
game notes on a separate text file, as you'd do if you were adding your
modifications to a printed adventure.

--
Bira <ra002585@**.unicamp.br>
http://www.shadowlandbr.hpg.com.br
Message no. 18
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Gurth)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Tue Feb 26 04:45:01 2002
According to George S Waksman, on Mon, 25 Feb 2002 the word on the street was...

> Just a quick note about resolutions, since Acrobat is scaling the
> document based on screen size it doesn't significantly matter what
> resolution you're using. In other words, except for the difference in the
> relative sizes of program menus and status bars, a PDF file will appear
> the same under different resolutions

If you mean that the letters will be the same size on-screen (of which I'm not
entirely sure), then a higher resolution will mean they're more easily readable
because there are more pixels available to draw each letter.

> whereas HTML will not.

Which is mostly because HTML is (supposed to be) sized to fit the available
output device, whatever that may be. Too many web sites are not, though.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Dat is de kip voor het ei spannen.
-> NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++@ UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--) O
V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t@ 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 19
From: shadowrn@*********.com (Arclight)
Subject: CD ROM Shadowrun
Date: Tue Feb 26 14:50:01 2002
At 10:43 26.02.2002 +0100, Gurth wrote:

<snip>

> > whereas HTML will not.
>
>Which is mostly because HTML is (supposed to be) sized to fit the available
>output device, whatever that may be. Too many web sites are not, though.

And they are not for a reason ;)


--
Arclight @*********.de
I won't turn into a snake. It never helps.

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about CD ROM Shadowrun, you may also be interested in:

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Thwap!