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Message no. 1
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:32:31 -0700
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk>
>
> But centring affects drain from summong, penalties to TN's (very
> useful particularly kocking DM's back from 6's to 4's it sustaining a
> another spell, got a moderate wound etc.) and it is your choice at
> the time you cast the spell wether to use centring or not with a geas
> you decide when you learn it, much less flexible.
>
This reminds me of a question I have regarding centering. When casting
an area effect combat spell and centering vs penalties, which TN is used
to determine the results of the centering? I can think of several
possibilities, but I'm not sure which one is correct:

1) The TN corresponding to the target the spell is centered on,
2) The highest TN in the group,
3) The lowest TN in the group (yeah, right), or
4) The average of the TNs in the group.

Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?

Thanks.

Mike Paff
Message no. 2
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:17:31 +0100
|This reminds me of a question I have regarding centering. When casting
|an area effect combat spell and centering vs penalties, which TN is used
|to determine the results of the centering? I can think of several
|possibilities, but I'm not sure which one is correct:
|
| 1) The TN corresponding to the target the spell is centered on,
| 2) The highest TN in the group,
| 3) The lowest TN in the group (yeah, right), or
| 4) The average of the TNs in the group.
|
|Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?

Do you mean, "What's the T# for the centering skill?".
That is the basic target number for the thing you're doing + penalties.
Successes reduce the penalties of the actual skill/spell you're using....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: mike.paff@*****.COM
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 10:21:07 -0700
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
> | 1) The TN corresponding to the target the spell is centered on,
> | 2) The highest TN in the group,
> | 3) The lowest TN in the group (yeah, right), or
> | 4) The average of the TNs in the group.
> |
> |Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?
>
> Do you mean, "What's the T# for the centering skill?".
> That is the basic target number for the thing you're doing + penalties.
> Successes reduce the penalties of the actual skill/spell you're using....
>
True, but for an area effect combat spell, there are multiple TNs
involved, one for each target. Which one is used?

Mike Paff
Message no. 4
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:35:06 +0100
|True, but for an area effect combat spell, there are multiple TNs
|involved, one for each target. Which one is used?

I'd rule the highest.....
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 5
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:24:48 -0700
| This reminds me of a question I have regarding centering. When casting
| an area effect combat spell and centering vs penalties, which TN is used
| to determine the results of the centering? I can think of several
| possibilities, but I'm not sure which one is correct:
|
| 1) The TN corresponding to the target the spell is centered on,
| 2) The highest TN in the group,
| 3) The lowest TN in the group (yeah, right), or
| 4) The average of the TNs in the group.
|
| Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?

Hmmm...well Mike I would probably say that the target the spell is centered
on id=s the target number I would use. The peanties will be accross the
board anyway, but the main target of the spell is that one person after
all.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 6
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:04:16 +0100
mike.paff@*****.COM said on 10:21/10 Jul 97...

> > |Any opinions? Which option is used in your groups?
> >
> > Do you mean, "What's the T# for the centering skill?".
> > That is the basic target number for the thing you're doing + penalties.
> > Successes reduce the penalties of the actual skill/spell you're using....

Hate to contradict you, Spike, but for centering against penalties the TN
is the same as for the magical skill test, minus the magician's initiation
grade -- i.e. if you're a Grade 0 initiate casting Power Bolt at a troll
with Body 10 and you're suffering from a Moderate wound, the Centering TN
is 12.

> True, but for an area effect combat spell, there are multiple TNs
> involved, one for each target. Which one is used?

The trouble with this situation is that the spell has multiple TNs (namely
one for each target in range), while the Centering test should probably
have only one. I'd do this by rolling the Centering test and comparing it
to the TN for each target, then noting the successes rolled. The penalties
for each target are then reduced by one-half the successes against that
target.

A quicker, but not as accurate, way would be to use the average TNs.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forget about the ones who "have it all."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
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Message no. 7
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 12:04:17 +0100
Caric said on 13:24/10 Jul 97...

> Hmmm...well Mike I would probably say that the target the spell is centered
> on id=s the target number I would use. The peanties will be accross the
> board anyway, but the main target of the spell is that one person after
> all.

If you think about this a bit more, it's possible to cast a spell centered
on a point in space, not on any specific person. Also, some targets in the
area of effect may have different penalties (when one is in a cloud of
smoke while the rest aren't, for example).

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forget about the ones who "have it all."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 8
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Centering Vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 13:40:26 -0400
On Friday, July 11, 1997 07:04, Gurth[SMTP:gurth@******.NL] wrote:
> Caric said on 13:24/10 Jul 97...
>
> > Hmmm...well Mike I would probably say that the target the spell is
centered
> > on id=s the target number I would use. The peanties will be accross
the
> > board anyway, but the main target of the spell is that one person after
> > all.
>
> If you think about this a bit more, it's possible to cast a spell
centered
> on a point in space, not on any specific person. Also, some targets in
the
> area of effect may have different penalties (when one is in a cloud of
> smoke while the rest aren't, for example).

I have never allowed combat spells to be cast at "a point in space." They
must be targeting something, even an area-effect one. If you want a "point
is space" blast, use a damaging manipulation.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 9
From: Dvixen <dvixen@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:17:25 -0700
Gurth wrote:

[snip]
> grade -- i.e. if you're a Grade 0 initiate casting Power Bolt at a
> troll
> with Body 10 and you're suffering from a Moderate wound, the Centering
> TN
> is 12.

Hrm? I thought minusing grade was first ed, not second ed? (At least
that is what my old (woot!) GM told me.) And if it is in second ed,
where???

--

Dvixen Code-word : Weevil-chuck. dvixen@********.com
"This is the type of conversation that can only end in a gunshot."
First High Priest of the Church of the Squooshy Ball.
Been there, done that, got the tshirt, wore it out. Now what do I wear?
Message no. 10
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:38:42 +0100
Dvixen said on 22:17/11 Jul 97...

> > grade -- i.e. if you're a Grade 0 initiate casting Power Bolt at a
> > troll
> > with Body 10 and you're suffering from a Moderate wound, the Centering
> > TN
> > is 12.
>
> Hrm? I thought minusing grade was first ed, not second ed? (At least
> that is what my old (woot!) GM told me.) And if it is in second ed,
> where???

The Grimoire page 44: "Use the same target number for this Centering Test
as for the Magic Success Test, using all the penalties applicable to but
subtracting the magician's grade from the modified target number."
When centering for extra spells successes or against drain, this modifier
isn't mentioned, but for centering against penalties it's clearly in the
book.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forget about the ones who "have it all."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 11
From: Gurth <gurth@******.NL>
Subject: Re: Centering Vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:38:42 +0100
Jonathan Hurley said on 13:40/11 Jul 97...

> I have never allowed combat spells to be cast at "a point in space." They
> must be targeting something, even an area-effect one. If you want a "point
> is space" blast, use a damaging manipulation.

That is irrelevant to this thread, isn't it? A DM can have penalties to
the TN that can be Centered against, just like any other spell,
area-effect or not.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Forget about the ones who "have it all."
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/plastic.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5++ X++ R+++>$ tv+(++) b++@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(---) y?
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Message no. 12
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:56:08 -0700
| > Hmmm...well Mike I would probably say that the target the spell is
centered
| > on id=s the target number I would use. The peanties will be accross
the
| > board anyway, but the main target of the spell is that one person after
| > all.
|
| If you think about this a bit more, it's possible to cast a spell
centered
| on a point in space, not on any specific person. Also, some targets in
the
| area of effect may have different penalties (when one is in a cloud of
| smoke while the rest aren't, for example).

Wouldn't there have to be something there with an aura? Even if it's just
a chair or a marble that the sammie tossed? Unless it's a DM I would say
that there has to be some targetmore precis then just "over there."

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 13
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 06:52:48 -0700
<snip the irrelevent bits>

| > True, but for an area effect combat spell, there are multiple TNs
| > involved, one for each target. Which one is used?
|
| The trouble with this situation is that the spell has multiple TNs
(namely
| one for each target in range), while the Centering test should probably
| have only one. I'd do this by rolling the Centering test and comparing it
| to the TN for each target, then noting the successes rolled. The
penalties
| for each target are then reduced by one-half the successes against that
| target.

This forced me to ponder (no easy task at 6AM on a Saturday) the exact
functioning of area effect spells. If I understand correctly you toss the
spell at a target and if it grounds out from him it hits anyone else in the
area of effect, but only if you can see them. Yet if the spell doesn't
ground throught the original target then it doesn't go off. If you have to
target the auras of all the targets why wouldn't the spell try to hit them
all regardless, and if you have to just hit the one target why would you
have to see the other targets? Now if the caster does not need to see the
other targets (I just checked the BBB and didn't find anything that said
one way or the other, but I just read the little blurb about area of effect
spells in the "spells" section) then why would vision and other situational
modifiers ,other than cover, effect the target numbers to damage them?
This would make more sense to me, and then the centering question would be
a moot point.

If someone knows where AOF spells are explained in better detail, please
let me know.

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 14
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 15:54:59 +0100
|Wouldn't there have to be something there with an aura? Even if it's just
|a chair or a marble that the sammie tossed? Unless it's a DM I would say
|that there has to be some targetmore precis then just "over there."

There's always SOMETHING....
How about a floor tile?
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 15
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 11:01:38 -0700
> This forced me to ponder (no easy task at 6AM on a Saturday) the exact
> functioning of area effect spells. If I understand correctly you toss the
> spell at a target and if it grounds out from him it hits anyone else in the
> area of effect, but only if you can see them. Yet if the spell doesn't
> ground throught the original target then it doesn't go off. If you have to
> target the auras of all the targets why wouldn't the spell try to hit them
> all regardless, and if you have to just hit the one target why would you
> have to see the other targets? Now if the caster does not need to see the
> other targets (I just checked the BBB and didn't find anything that said
> one way or the other, but I just read the little blurb about area of effect
> spells in the "spells" section) then why would vision and other situational
> modifiers ,other than cover, effect the target numbers to damage them?
> This would make more sense to me, and then the centering question would be
> a moot point.

I don't see much of a reason that visual modifiers should affect
spellcasting at all: the mage 'glances' into the Astral, where things
like smoke and glare don't exist, and locks the spell to the target. If
he can see it, he can it (and if he can see a part of it, he can hit it
just as well: it's all one aura.)

As far as area effect spells, I've never liked the explanation for them,
but it seems to me that it spreads in the Astral first, covering (x)
area, and then grounds, individually, through each aura (target) in the
area. Of course, I'm not big on the Astral having a 1:1 correspondence
with 'reality', but that's just me.

I /really/ disagree with the 'mirror as targeting scope' since it's an
image of the target, but not hte actual aura of the target. Equivalent
to seeing someone's picture on a computer monitor, though less tech
involved.

And yes, I disagree with the 'LOS through fiberop' thread begun with the
CorpSec Handbook, but that's mostly because I don't see being able to
see through a FO line without some assistance from electronics.


-Matt
Message no. 16
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:23:30 -0700
Dvixen responded:

| [snip]
| > grade -- i.e. if you're a Grade 0 initiate casting Power Bolt at a
| > troll
| > with Body 10 and you're suffering from a Moderate wound, the Centering
| > TN
| > is 12.
|
| Hrm? I thought minusing grade was first ed, not second ed? (At least
| that is what my old (woot!) GM told me.) And if it is in second ed,
| where???

Is this the same GM that you had less than a stellar opinion of?

grimthingy; p. 44; left column; second paragraph "Use the same target
number for this centering test as for the magic success test, using all the
penalties applicable but subtracting the magician's grade from the modified
target number."

Sorry D but you've been shafted. :)

-Caric

"If a man talks in the forest, and there isn't a woman around to hear him,
is he still wrong?"
Message no. 17
From: Caric <caric@********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:47:20 -0700
| |Wouldn't there have to be something there with an aura? Even if it's
just
| |a chair or a marble that the sammie tossed? Unless it's a DM I would
say
| |that there has to be some targetmore precis then just "over there."
|
| There's always SOMETHING....
| How about a floor tile?

<Michael Palin>

Well a floor tile maybe, but not a point in space that's my point.

</Michael Palin>

-Caric

"Why is there no blue food!!!!"
-George Carlin
Message no. 18
From: Damion Milliken <milko@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 05:39:50 +1000
Caric writes:

> This forced me to ponder (no easy task at 6AM on a Saturday) the exact
> functioning of area effect spells. If I understand correctly you toss the
> spell at a target and if it grounds out from him it hits anyone else in the
> area of effect, but only if you can see them. Yet if the spell doesn't
> ground throught the original target then it doesn't go off.

This is the case for grounding a spell from the astral plane, yes. However,
it is not the case for casting an area of effect spell at targets on the
plane that the caster is currently in.

> If you have to target the auras of all the targets why wouldn't the spell
> try to hit them all regardless, and if you have to just hit the one target
> why would you have to see the other targets?

I'm a little confused by this. If an area of effect spell is being cast at
a group of people, then it affects each on individualy. The affect (or lack
thereof) of the spell on one person does not change the affect of the spell
on another. As for the requirement to see all the targets of a spell, it
has to do with the "synchonising araus" thing - you can't affect a target
that you cannot synchronise with (exception: DM spells).

> Now if the caster does not need to see the other targets (I just checked
> the BBB and didn't find anything that said one way or the other, but I just
> read the little blurb about area of effect spells in the "spells" section)
> then why would vision and other situational modifiers ,other than cover,
> effect the target numbers to damage them?

Although the caster does need to see the targets of a spell to affect them,
you bring up a good point. Since the spell caster does a quick switch to
astral perception to synchronise auras with the target of the spell, it
would seem logical that many of the situation modifiers (lighting in
particular) would be irrelevent. Modifiers due to smoke, mist, or rain
would still apply, as these distort and block vision on the astral plane the
same as they do on the physical, however. The only real reason I can think
of right now for still including the vision lightin modifiers in spell
casting is that the quick action of astral perception that the spell caster
undertakes to synchronise auras is only quick enough to synchronise auras,
not significant enough to allow readjustment of targetting. If the
targetting is poor, perhaps due to being unable to see that target clearly,
then the synchronisation will also be poor.

As for the requirement to "centre" spells on a target, I always used to run
it that spells other than DMs had such a requirement. However, upon
looking, I cannot find where I obtained this ruling from (perhaps 1st Ed?).
Also, I cannot really see any reason that a comabt spell requires that the
centre of its affect be a specific target of the spell. After all, its is
just pumping energy into the auras of all targets within its area of affect
- why should it need one at the centre?

PS: It's good to be back - it's been a long time since I've debated
grounding spells through quickenings cast on elven illuminati that have
masked them and are in FAB filled rooms lined with orichalcum. <VBG> :-)

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong
Unofficial Shadowrun Guru E-mail: milko@***.edu.au
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Message no. 19
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:45:26 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-12 16:48:28 EDT, caric@********.COM (Caric) writes:

>
> Wouldn't there have to be something there with an aura? Even if it's just
> a chair or a marble that the sammie tossed? Unless it's a DM I would say
> that there has to be some targetmore precis then just "over there."
>
> -Caric
>
>
A good point. Perhaps some sort of "generic air" ruling needs to be
determined?
-K
Message no. 20
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 19:53:11 -0500
You wrote:
> Wouldn't there have to be something there with an aura? Even if it's just
> a chair or a marble that the sammie tossed? Unless it's a DM I would say
> that there has to be some targetmore precis then just "over there."
If it's a physical spell, well, everything has an aura. I'd say wherever your
eyes were focused at would be the center, and it wouldn't necessarily have to
be an object. Some good control of your focal length would let you put a spell
wherever you could LOS it.

losthalo
Message no. 21
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 20:57:14 -0700
> > I don't see much of a reason that visual modifiers should affect
> > spellcasting at all: the mage 'glances' into the Astral, where things
> > like smoke and glare don't exist, and locks the spell to the target.

> Yes they *do*. Vision in astral is no clearer or less obstructed than in the
> mundane world. Everything exists there visually the same as it does in this
> world. Everything has an aura, else it couldn't be affected by spells...

That would seem to raise a number of problems - the spell would have to
pass through other auras before grounding out into its target.

I see some problems with allowing glare to effect the Astral.
Everything is backlit with the glow of radiant life energy, not physical
lightbulbs; I don't have the source but I believe the commments made
where a sparse concrete cell lit by a bare bulb would appear Astrally
dark (the rare situation where visual modifiers do come into play). I
don't believe the question was ever answered, whether lasers (and,
following, floodlights) generate Elemental Light, which I might see
crossing over to Astral.

Smoke is a bit problematic, since water and fire both appear in Astral.
Treat it as individual molecules? Each 'cloud' as its own Aura? If
they are Astrally present, they can't be seen through; Astral should be
much harder to see through, than much easier.

Ahhh. This is why we want better Astral descriptions in SR3!

Getting back to the issue at hand, it's the _spell_ that does the
targeting, not the mage, and (combat) spells are assumed to hit
unerringly (otherwise everything's reduced to a DM). The _spell_
certainly doesn't worry about a bit of night-fog.

To me, it would become an either/or situation: either you can make out
the aura distinctly, or there's so much detritus in the way that the
aura is indistinguishable. But 'partly' just doesn't fit. (Or do you
only 'partly' synchronize your aura to the targets? Oh, that opens up a
box frogs....)
Message no. 22
From: "Bruce H. Nagel" <NAGELBH@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 01:11:24 -0500
You wrote:
> This is the case for grounding a spell from the astral plane, yes. However,
> it is not the case for casting an area of effect spell at targets on the
> plane that the caster is currently in.
Yes. :)

> I'm a little confused by this. If an area of effect spell is being cast at
> a group of people, then it affects each on individualy. The affect (or lack
> thereof) of the spell on one person does not change the affect of the spell
> on another. As for the requirement to see all the targets of a spell, it
> has to do with the "synchonising araus" thing - you can't affect a target
> that you cannot synchronise with (exception: DM spells).
An area effect spell is indeed cast on an area, all valid targets in that area
that the caster can see. The center merely tells where the sphere is centered,
that's all.

> Although the caster does need to see the targets of a spell to affect them,
> you bring up a good point. Since the spell caster does a quick switch to
> astral perception to synchronise auras with the target of the spell, it
> would seem logical that many of the situation modifiers (lighting in
> particular) would be irrelevent. Modifiers due to smoke, mist, or rain
> would still apply, as these distort and block vision on the astral plane the
> same as they do on the physical, however. The only real reason I can think
> of right now for still including the vision lightin modifiers in spell
> casting is that the quick action of astral perception that the spell caster
> undertakes to synchronise auras is only quick enough to synchronise auras,
> not significant enough to allow readjustment of targetting. If the
> targetting is poor, perhaps due to being unable to see that target clearly,
> then the synchronisation will also be poor.
And the fact that you must see the target *with*mundane*senses* on the physical
plane, if the target is not astral, in order to cast a spell at them. Period.
Seeing them by assensing, even though there's always light to see by in Astral,
doesn't count. Your physical eyes must see the target to form the momentary
bridge from astral to physical (completing the circuit, as it were).

> As for the requirement to "centre" spells on a target, I always used to run
> it that spells other than DMs had such a requirement. However, upon
> looking, I cannot find where I obtained this ruling from (perhaps 1st Ed?).
A tiny example on Quickening spells in Grim1 (that I think carried over to
Grim2) which mentions Rikki Ratboy Quickening a spell on a bar patron to
Quicken it to the site; a Stink spell, it was). This may be in the example not
because of something about area spells but rather a requirement for Quickening.

> Also, I cannot really see any reason that a comabt spell requires that the
> centre of its affect be a specific target of the spell. After all, its is
> just pumping energy into the auras of all targets within its area of affect
> - why should it need one at the centre?
*nod*

losthalo
Message no. 23
From: Spike <u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:07:27 +0100
|A good point. Perhaps some sort of "generic air" ruling needs to be
|determined?
|-K
|

I'll target that microbe.....
:)
--
______________________________________________________________________________
|u5a77@*****.cs.keele.ac.uk| "Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?" |
|Andrew Halliwell | |
|Principal subjects in:- | "I think so brain, but this time, you control |
|Comp Sci & Electronics | the Encounter suit, and I'll do the voice..." |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|GCv3.1 GCS/EL>$ d---(dpu) s+/- a- C++ U N++ o+ K- w-- M+/++ PS+++ PE- Y t+ |
|5++ X+/++ R+ tv+ b+ D G e>PhD h/h+ !r! !y-|I can't say F**K either now! :( |
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Message no. 24
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 08:14:10 -0700
> I think you are seeing the Astral as this place that only reflects magical
> things (the four elements, etc.). Not only does this hold too closely to

I think I was reading the SRII description of Astral at the time. :)

> Hermetism, but it doesn't follow what I've read in every SR supplement I've
> seen on magic. In the Etheric Astral (the one corresponding to our world in
> location) everything is seen there the same except for print (which is
> obscured, unreadable, except for some feel for its emotional content). If
> there's a rock or a signpost there, it's there in Astral as well. Period. It
> doesn't have to be magical or alive to be seen in the astral, or to give vision
> modifiers, it's just not material (you can pass through it like a ghost).
> Smoke obscures, fire produces light, etc. The only differences are 1)
> everything has an aura as well attached to it and 2) the natural earth,
> considered a living thing, sheds light as all living things in Astral do.

On the other hand, the color traffic lights emit, the screen on computer
monitors, and neon lighting are all munged, since information can't be
read off of them. So (to be argumentative) they emit light into Astral
normally, but it isn't perceived correctly?
Eh?

> > Ahhh. This is why we want better Astral descriptions in SR3!

> They've always made sense to me, I don't see why everyone complains so much. I
> think they read too much into it or bring their own ideas in and add them.

If 'everyone' complains, then they should be made clearer. The needs of
the many...

> > Getting back to the issue at hand, it's the _spell_ that does the
> > targeting, not the mage, and (combat) spells are assumed to hit
> > unerringly (otherwise everything's reduced to a DM). The _spell_
> > certainly doesn't worry about a bit of night-fog.

> It does if the mage cannot see the target well enough to 'synchronize' the
> astral-to-physical bridge to get the spell to work. The magician, not the
> spell, targets; he does this by perceiving both astral and physical together
> for a split second (as with usual assensing) and aligning magical energy with
> the aura of the target and letting it 'drain through into the target's physical
> self. Make sense (hope that was clear)?

Yes; I was on a beeline to the point made below.

> > To me, it would become an either/or situation: either you can make out
> > the aura distinctly, or there's so much detritus in the way that the
> > aura is indistinguishable. But 'partly' just doesn't fit. (Or do you
> > only 'partly' synchronize your aura to the targets? Oh, that opens up a
> > box frogs....)

> I agree. I don't see why vision mods should affect combat spells, was only
> recently informed that they did and did a double-take, tried to figure out why.
> I think the 'why' is game balance...

It does make life more interesting.

> losthalo
Message no. 25
From: "J. Keith Henry" <Ereskanti@***.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 12:24:53 -0400
In a message dated 97-07-13 07:08:56 EDT, u5a77@*****.CS.KEELE.AC.UK (Spike)
writes:

>
> I'll target that microbe.....
> :)
>
Okay, here's an image for everyone...Mage #1 walks around with a massively
expensive looking set of ray bans (super powered microscope under a physical
mask spell, never mind the power concept)...

-or-

Mage #2 walks around with a funny "Klink Monacle" in his eye (with the
Detection Spell- View Microbial Lifeforms, anchored/quickened to it).

And yeah, I've seen it done. We've got a player here who got into cybertech
as a player, went about developing spells like "Analyze DNA" and "Formulate
Blood Type" for detection spells, based off the "Analyze Object" and
"Catalog" spells.

-keith
Message no. 26
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:03:48 -0700
---Caric wrote:
>
> If someone knows where AOF spells are explained in better detail,
please
> let me know.

I don't have it with me, but I believe it's in the Grimmy. There's an
example where a magician cast an AOE spell at a guy in a room and it
show's an example of how he also factors successes for the thugs that
are just barely in the doorway.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 27
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Centering vs Penalties (was Re: [SR3] Spell Rituals)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:28:26 -0500
At 13-Jul-97 wrote J. Keith Henry:


>And yeah, I've seen it done. We've got a player here who got into cybertech
>as a player, went about developing spells like "Analyze DNA" and
"Formulate
>Blood Type" for detection spells, based off the "Analyze Object" and
>"Catalog" spells.

I have similar players, sometimes we need a enceclodedia(looks horrible wrong)
to understand what the others tries to tell us.
--
Barbie, still trying to catch up with my mail GAU


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

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