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Message no. 1
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:51:37 -0600
Shaun Hall wrote:
|
| First of all a street
| gang is usually not much challenge for a shadowrunning team (unless they
| too are heavily cybered, have magical support, or both).

I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15 works
well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if the gang
engages the runners in melee.

I once tossed 15 low-lifes at the runners thinking it was going to be
a quick and easy combat for the runners. To my, and the player's,
suprise the runners just about got their buts whipped. The runners
ran out of their dice pools before they had accounted for all of the
attacks on them. And that friends/enemies in melee modifier killed
them. Each PC blew his entire karma pool to stay alive. And they
were pretty humiliated by the experience.

You don't have to get fancy as a GM to create a substantial challenge
for the PCs.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 2
From: "Jackson, Hank" <Hank.Jackson@*********.COM>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:25:43 -0400
24 Sep 97, David Buehrer wrote,

>I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15
works
>well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if
the gang
>engages the runners in melee.

>Much snipped>

>-David

I agree with David. I run a high lethality game. The gangs are
a significant challenge unless the runners use their guns. This has
pissed off two of my players. They are used to Munchkin games, so the
expect to walk all over the gangers. But, they twice entered into
combat with this particular gang in which they were outnumbered by at
least 3 to 1. They got their asses kicked both times. Here's a little
humor. They are now considering assaulting this 30 member gang head on
with guns blazing. I haven't decided how I will slaughter them. The
ex-bomb disposal guy I'll probably sell for parts. The Ork will
probably end up in Laos working a slave. I really don't want to do this
as they do have developed personalities for their characters. But,
stupid people don't live long in the Sprawl.

Galen
Message no. 3
From: Swordsman <Swordman@******.NET>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:37:25 -0500
David Buehrer wrote:
>
> Shaun Hall wrote:
> | First of all a street
> | gang is usually not much challenge for a shadowrunning team (unless they
> | too are heavily cybered, have magical support, or both).
>
> I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15 works
> well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if the gang
> engages the runners in melee.
<Snip>
> You don't have to get fancy as a GM to create a substantial challenge
> for the PCs.
>
> -David
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
> --
> "Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
> which ones to keep."

Same here, but I used only seven gangers who rode up, Enfields drawn and
ready to rumble, by the time it was over, one guy was down, another was
swinging a dead guy for a weapon, guns lay everwhere (no one even dared
take the time to reload) and another was taking extreem shots at the
fleeing gang with a silver gun, who had been reduced to 6 wounded and
one dead and every PC had been rammed with a bike at least once! I think
the fight lasted all of 24 seconds.
Some times it's not size or number, but hardware and tactics.
--

"Creativity is my sharpest weapon!"
-The Swordsman '97
Message no. 4
From: Shaun Hall <Hard.master@********.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:48:56 -0700
----------
> From: Jackson, Hank
>
> 24 Sep 97, David Buehrer wrote,
>
> >I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15
> works
> >well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if
> the gang
> >engages the runners in melee.
>
> >Much snipped>
>
> >-David
>
> I agree with David. I run a high lethality game. The gangs are
> a significant challenge unless the runners use their guns. This has
> pissed off two of my players. They are used to Munchkin games, so the
> expect to walk all over the gangers. But, they twice entered into
> combat with this particular gang in which they were outnumbered by at
> least 3 to 1. They got their asses kicked both times. Here's a little
> humor. They are now considering assaulting this 30 member gang head on
> with guns blazing. I haven't decided how I will slaughter them. The
> ex-bomb disposal guy I'll probably sell for parts. The Ork will
> probably end up in Laos working a slave. I really don't want to do this
> as they do have developed personalities for their characters. But,
> stupid people don't live long in the Sprawl.
>
> Galen

I guess it all depends on how it is initiated. If the players initiate
the attack with appropriate surprise, have a good tactical plan, have
prepared several fall back positions, and are well armed with weapons of
mass destruction prepared for starters (HMGs, combat drones, grenade
launchers, spirit/elemental support ), and coordinate their attack, then
they should be able to account for over fifty percent of the enemy in the
first round of combat. Then the players get to see if their plan is really
good.
On the other hand if the players just run up to the game and start
shooting with four or five-to-one odds the will probably get slaughtered.
One-to-one odds are more than enough if the battle is to be fought on the
enemy's terms.
Naturally my previous comments were intended for players with a bit of
tactical knowledge and enough sense to avoid walking into a trap.

Shaun
Message no. 5
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:19:40 EDT
On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:51:37 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:
>I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15 works
>well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if the gang
>engages the runners in melee.
>
>I once tossed 15 low-lifes at the runners thinking it was going to be
>a quick and easy combat for the runners. To my, and the player's,
>suprise the runners just about got their buts whipped. The runners
>ran out of their dice pools before they had accounted for all of the
>attacks on them. And that friends/enemies in melee modifier killed
>them. Each PC blew his entire karma pool to stay alive. And they
>were pretty humiliated by the experience.
>
>You don't have to get fancy as a GM to create a substantial challenge
>for the PCs.

Yup, but you don't even need *mobs* of people... to prove a subtle point
to my players (that they aren't playing Doom with IDDQD on - and that
it's a rough world) the physad, after picking up someone else's girl at a
club, got cornered in an alley by 4 average stat'd slumming corp types
and beaten to a pulp (even *with* his weapon focus katana)... and I
didn't fudge anything. Like you said his pool just couldn't hold out,
and the friends-in-melee penalty is a killer.

~Tim
Message no. 6
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:42:29 -0600
Tim Cooper wrote:
|
| On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:51:37 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
| writes:
| >I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15 works
| >well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if the gang
| >engages the runners in melee.
|
| Yup, but you don't even need *mobs* of people... to prove a subtle point
| to my players (that they aren't playing Doom with IDDQD on - and that
| it's a rough world) the physad, after picking up someone else's girl at a
| club, got cornered in an alley by 4 average stat'd slumming corp types
| and beaten to a pulp (even *with* his weapon focus katana)... and I
| didn't fudge anything. Like you said his pool just couldn't hold out,
| and the friends-in-melee penalty is a killer.

I've thrown 15 NPCs against the 5 runners (3:1 odds). You used 4 vs
1 (4:1 odds). What exactly is your definition of *mob* ;)

Anyway, 3:1 odds, or better, in melee against the PCs does the
trick. Overwhelming odds for ranged combat is pretty variable,
depending on the tactical skills of the players, their characters,
and the GM and his NPCs, but 3:1 is usually pretty challenging.

Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
have honestly played a character that didn't.

-David
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm
--
"Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing
which ones to keep."
Message no. 7
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:28:13 -0400
At 04:19 PM 9/25/97 EDT, you wrote:
>On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:51:37 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
>writes:
>>I disagree. If you've got enough guys (usually 10 or more, 15 works
>>well) the runners are going to be in trouble. Especially if the gang
>>engages the runners in melee.
>>
>>I once tossed 15 low-lifes at the runners thinking it was going to be
>>a quick and easy combat for the runners. To my, and the player's,
>>suprise the runners just about got their buts whipped. The runners
>>ran out of their dice pools before they had accounted for all of the
>>attacks on them. And that friends/enemies in melee modifier killed
>>them. Each PC blew his entire karma pool to stay alive. And they
>>were pretty humiliated by the experience.
>>
>>You don't have to get fancy as a GM to create a substantial challenge
>>for the PCs.
>
>Yup, but you don't even need *mobs* of people... to prove a subtle point
>to my players (that they aren't playing Doom with IDDQD on - and that
>it's a rough world) the physad, after picking up someone else's girl at a
>club, got cornered in an alley by 4 average stat'd slumming corp types
>and beaten to a pulp (even *with* his weapon focus katana)... and I
>didn't fudge anything. Like you said his pool just couldn't hold out,
>and the friends-in-melee penalty is a killer.
>
>~Tim

That sounds fairly ridiculously unrealistic to me. The combat should go
something like, 1 of the 4 says something rude, physad knocks him to the
ground (1 on 1), other 3 corpers decide to head home for night (what kind
of threat rating do you give drunk suits anyway? 1?). This is the kind of
situation where you aren't even supposed to look at numbers and skills.
One of the combatants is a trained and magicaly active ass-kicker, his 4
opponents are four suits who work all day behind a desk. I wouldn't even
roll dice, let alone use this situation to teach the players to be humble.
All IMO, of course.

--DT
Message no. 8
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:09:49 EDT
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:28:13 -0400 David Thompson writes:
>>Yup, but you don't even need *mobs* of people... to prove a subtle
point
>>to my players (that they aren't playing Doom with IDDQD on - and that
>>it's a rough world) the physad, after picking up someone else's girl at
a
>>club, got cornered in an alley by 4 average stat'd slumming corp types
>>and beaten to a pulp (even *with* his weapon focus katana)... and I
>>didn't fudge anything. Like you said his pool just couldn't hold out,
>>and the friends-in-melee penalty is a killer.
>>
>>~Tim
>
>That sounds fairly ridiculously unrealistic to me. The combat should go
>something like, 1 of the 4 says something rude, physad knocks him to the
>ground (1 on 1), other 3 corpers decide to head home for night (what
kind
>of threat rating do you give drunk suits anyway? 1?). This is the kind
of
>situation where you aren't even supposed to look at numbers and skills.
>One of the combatants is a trained and magicaly active ass-kicker, his 4
>opponents are four suits who work all day behind a desk. I wouldn't
even
>roll dice, let alone use this situation to teach the players to be
humble.
>All IMO, of course.

Actaully it went down like the four guys/thugs/rich-punks (OK maybe they
weren't 'suits'.. but they were definitely corp. Who mentioned drunk?)
decided that they were going to teach some piece of trash to keep his
hands off of their girl and stay out of their club. And in standard
dirty fighting tactics they got him from all sides, on his first action
he went for his katana and after blowing a counterattack roll (he had no
reflex enhancements you see... it was even footing) took a wound from a
club.. and it went down hill from there. I rolled everything legit
(they had an average skill and a TR of like 1 or 2 ) and after he started
getting T# penalties he was trashed in a round or two. This was only
because our games had been tending to veer toward what I described
earlier.. the players just walked around and kicked-butt left and right,
not 'cause they were that good, just 'cause they were allowed to. Also
just because your a Runner doesn't mean your a "Lord of the Streets", and
that your exempt from the hazards of being careless and/or stupid.
Anyway, people can get killed NOW for less... how do you think it'd be in
the sprawls of 2057?

~Tim
Message no. 9
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:09:48 EDT
On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 06:42:29 -0600 David Buehrer <dbuehrer@****.ORG>
writes:

>I've thrown 15 NPCs against the 5 runners (3:1 odds). You used 4 vs
>1 (4:1 odds). What exactly is your definition of *mob* ;)

picky, picky... to be honest I wasn't really looking at the odds - you
mean you expect me to do *more* than skim my mail after letting it go for
more than a day?, but more of the numbers.. in which case 15 is a mob and
4 is not. So there. :) :)

>Anyway, 3:1 odds, or better, in melee against the PCs does the
>trick. Overwhelming odds for ranged combat is pretty variable,
>depending on the tactical skills of the players, their characters,
>and the GM and his NPCs, but 3:1 is usually pretty challenging.

True enough... hardware comes into play in ranged combat also. 3:1 with
an archtypical street sam and his trusty HVAR on fullauto can (and I
stress that.. CAN) be a breeze. But, as you said it all depends on the
circumstances and characters (PC and NPC) involved.

>Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
>have honestly played a character that didn't.

Don't know, but I'll bet there are fewer of the converse (poor tacticians
playing characters who are good), with out having to resort to "Well I
got enough successes on a Tactics roll so I come up with some sort of
good plan.." that is.

~Tim
Message no. 10
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 13:10:45 +1100
At 06:42 AM 9/26/97 -0600, David wrote:
>
>Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
>have honestly played a character that didn't.

I don't know whether I have good tactical skills or not. I have certainly
played characters with worse tactical knowledge than myself, and did in fact
play them that way.

However, the GM and one of the players are very tactics-heavy (both are in
Army Reserves). Both ignore whether their characters know anything about
tactics or not - as soon as combat starts, it's all fire-zones, tactical
movement, paths of approach and retreat, etc.
This includes the GM assuming that everyone else will be using OOC knowledge
in combat too, even to the point of suggesting tactics to the players on
the grounds that "they'll probably get killed otherwise"


The player is similar in other areas - using player knowledge of chemicals
to allow his character to manfacture nerve poisons and blister agents is
probably not the best roleplaying for a Siberian nomad magician.

One contributing factor is that the GM often won't allow unusual technology
unless you (the player) can plausibly say how it would work, including
things from sourcebooks.
This means you need to use player knowledge to justify game effects, and
this could start a habit which is bad for roleplaying.

--
Little One
Message no. 11
From: Rick St Jean <Platinum@*****.CA>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 1997 16:37:57 -0400
Timothy Little wrote:
>
> At 06:42 AM 9/26/97 -0600, David wrote:
> >
> >Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
> >have honestly played a character that didn't.


oh oh ...one of my friends did. he did a great job at it too. musta
ran into 50 walls... and all kindsa things. We laughed a whole bunch so
the gm couldn't kill him.

Another insert from the library of
Platinum
Message no. 12
From: RUE <rue@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 1997 20:30:15 +0200
At 06:42 AM 9/26/97 -0600, David wrote:

> Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
> have honestly played a character that didn't.

Well, the player of the Troll nearly blowin' up his cycle (maybe you
remember) just had a question in return:
How many very intelligent players have actually played a totally stupid
Troll?

---
cu, RUE (tm)

Email rue@***.net
Homepage http://www.triserve.com/~RUE
The Dark Prophet http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/7042
Homemobbing http://www.angelfire.com/de/schneckenwurst
Message no. 13
From: Timothy Little <t_little@**********.UTAS.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 11:57:52 +1100
At 08:30 PM 10/8/97 +0200, RUE wrote:
>
>Well, the player of the Troll nearly blowin' up his cycle (maybe you
>remember) just had a question in return:
>How many very intelligent players have actually played a totally stupid
>Troll?

I can't comment. My troll character (Toffee) is probably more intelligent
than I am. Certainly more perceptive, and skilled in more areas.

(Not as charismatic, though. And **way** less attractive.)

--
Little One
(Well, in this case, rather Big One)
Message no. 14
From: Tobias Berghoff <Zixx@*****.TEUTO.DE>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 1997 13:29:00 GMT
on 26.09.97 dbuehrer@****.ORG wrote:

d> Here's a quick question. How many players with good tactical skills
d> have honestly played a character that didn't.

I'm not *that* good in tactics (no military-skills, you see. Just read
some stuff), but I did that with electronics/computer and physics. And I
must say, it's quite funny. Charon e.g. doesn't know *anything* about this
stuff, except for what he learned in normal life (whatever that is for
someone like him). So, if *I* say 'This doesn't work.' he usually goes
'What the hell!' and does it. Being magically active comes in handy when
this happens.
Oh, there was a char I played with completly no knowledge of tactics. All
he knew was how to hunt animals (he actually wanted to cut the throat of a
ship). He just looked up (he was a koborukuru) at the merc-ork and said
'How?'. Than he did that.



Tobias Berghoff a.k.a Zixx a.k.a. Charon, your friendly werepanther physad.

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK------------
GAT/CS/S/IT d--- s+:- !a>? C++(++++)
UL++(++++) P+ L++ E W+ N+(+++) o? K?(-)
w---() O- M-- V- PS+ PE- Y+>++ PGP-
t+(++) 5+ X++ R* tv b++ DI(+) D++ G>++
e>+++++(*) h! r-- z?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK-------------
Message no. 15
From: David Buehrer <dbuehrer@******.CARL.ORG>
Subject: Re: Challenges
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 07:54:22 -0600
Erik Jameson wrote:
/
/ You know what? It's odd, the harder I hammer my players, the more I
/ challenge them, the more the like it! I ran one of my "sex adventures"
/ that I thought of recently and while it was rather chaotic, they all
/ enjoyed it!
/
/ I think they would be mightily displeased if I ran a common "snatch and
/ grab, shoot lots of people" adventure. Methinks I've trained them too well...

<chuckle>

Yep, the same thing has happened to me. You run one good adventure and
suddenly you've raised your players expectations :)

If you really want to challenge yourself try to write a "snatch and
grab" that they'll enjoy :)

-David
--
"Earn what you have been given."
--
email: dbuehrer@******.carl.org
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/1068/homepage.htm

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