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Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Change
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:16:26 EST
I formally retract previous said statemants regarding science. It was
a shallow and idiotic thing to say. I should have put the blame were it
belong: mankind. In public conversations, I hve used this quote:
Giving science to mankind is like giving loaded .45s to five year old
children; some will not understand it, some will actually find a use for
it, and most will end up hurting someone or themselves. This is what
I meant, instead I worded it all wrong. I will admit that I was mistaken.
The important thing is I learned from my mistakes.

I decided that I will not leave the list. I have had enough people say
not to go, and in retrospect it would be foolish of me to run. That
would only convince mine opponents that I was truly the coward.
Thanks to all who wrote and provided support, one way or the other.

I guess you could call just about anything a science. Just because
one science is flawed does not mean all is. Otherwise I would be
shooting myself in the foot, since the occult and "back to nature" are
sciences in their own right. It is also sensless in the fact that the
character I am named after is cybered to the teeth. Makes one think...

Garth, why do you not just try Glow. It is easy and simple. Or if you
have a favorite character, steal his/her name like most the rest of us.
You could also use Orion. I kinda like it.

Vader, the crack about cyber was two-fold. Hope you got it.





Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 2
From: Darth Vader <j07c@***.UNI-BREMEN.DE>
Subject: Re: Change
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 10:18:29 +0200
± I meant, instead I worded it all wrong. I will admit that I was mistaken.
± The important thing is I learned from my mistakes.

It takes a great man to do that :)

± I decided that I will not leave the list. I have had enough people say
± not to go, and in retrospect it would be foolish of me to run. That
± would only convince mine opponents that I was truly the coward.
± Thanks to all who wrote and provided support, one way or the other.

To this I can only say one thing 'Yo' :)

± I guess you could call just about anything a science. Just because
± one science is flawed does not mean all is. Otherwise I would be
± shooting myself in the foot, since the occult and "back to nature" are
± sciences in their own right. It is also sensless in the fact that the
± character I am named after is cybered to the teeth. Makes one think...

Magic is science and science should be magic, or something like
that. I think that we could agree on that...mybe. But us elf-lovers should
stick together, dontcha think ?

--
"Believe in Angels." -- The Crow

GCS d>- H s+: !g p? !au a- w+ v-(?) C+++ UA++VS++L>++++ P-- (aren't we all?)
L+>+++ 3 E--- N++ K W(+)(---) M-- !V(--) -po+(---) Y+ t++ 5+ !j(-) R+++(--)
!G tv(++) b+++ D++ B- e+ u++(-) h*(+) f+ r- n!(----) y?
Message no. 3
From: Luke Kendall <luke@********.CANON.OZ.AU>
Subject: Re: Change
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 14:50:47 +1100
Shadowdancer writes:

> I formally retract previous said statemants regarding science. It was
> a shallow and idiotic thing to say. I should have put the blame were it
> belong: mankind.

I agree. At one time, I thought Money was the root of all evil.
Then I thought Nations (Nationalism) was. Lots of people say that
Power is the problem.

But ultimately, it all comes down to human nature. There _is_ no
quick fix.

(And a wise society arranges its laws to take that into account.)

luke
Message no. 4
From: JEFFREY MARLER <MARLER-JEFFREY@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: Change -Reply
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 1994 11:47:04 -1000
-------human nature is the cause of evil---------

It's true that numan nature has caused much suffering in the world, and
in the realms of SHADOWRUN, but it has also caused much good as
well. I'm sure there are some groups who play, who make the world a
better place, if only for a little while. I imagine many players are
mercenaries for hire, and accept jobs to line their pockets, without
thinking of the effects of their actions, but I'd like to think there some who
care for their fellow man(woman, drwarf, troll...)
Message no. 5
From: Firepower <DVANDERS@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Change -Reply
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 16:32:14 EST
The degree of morality in a game can often control the entire
game. Unfortunately, I am too often faced with players who choose to
completely avoid any morality--based complications--taking the easy
way out and killing anything in sight.
In the base system for the creation of characters, one of the 20
questions asked is if the character has a moral code. Humans do
have feelings and don't usually gun down, torture, or kill for no
reason. The people who do are the truly sick. And in my games, the
killing of anyone has its repercussions.

Of course, it's hard sometimes to find out who did it..........

Firepower
Message no. 6
From: Shadowdancer <BRIDDLE@*****.VINU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Change -Reply
Date: Sun, 30 Oct 1994 19:32:01 EST
>Firepower writes:
>
> In the base system for the creation of characters, one of the 20
> questions asked is if the character has a moral code. Humans do
> have feelings and don't usually gun down, torture, or kill for no
> reason. The people who do are the truly sick. And in my games,
the
> killing of anyone has its repercussions.
>
>
In my games, I curb this tendency by taking away Karma for killing
innocents or those that do not need to be killed. If they have no good
karma left, I go for Karma pool, then their favorite skill, then an
abbility score, the another skill, etc. Stops them real fast.



Many people run the shadows, praying that whatever gods they worship will smile upon them.
I waltz through shadows with my gods, and I lead!

-SHADOWDANCER-
Message no. 7
From: "Wesley W. Walker" <wwalker@****.UARK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Change
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 12:44:45 -0600
Skrub wrote:

Whoever wrote:
> >In my games, I curb this tendency by taking away Karma for killing
> >innocents or those that do not need to be killed. If they have no good
> >karma left, I go for Karma pool, then their favorite skill, then an
> >abbility score, the another skill, etc. Stops them real fast.

> Actually this goes completely against SR's idea of karma, which isn't Karma,
> but is simply your ability to improve. You get just as accurate shooting at
> civvies as you do sammies. Shooting innocents is a fact in a cyberpunk
> setting.

Well, if you're hitting civvies, then you *ain't* hitting your target
_are_ you? So why give Karma(XP) to chars for screwing up???


> Life ain't fun. Don't go imposing your morals on your players.

If they don't like his morals, they don't have to play under him, do
they? It's his game. I personally agree with his view. I'm not going
to let characters advance if the just go around killing anything that
moves... It's not impressive and unrealistic. Don't flame me here.
Someone starts shooting in the streets, just how far away *are* several
LoneStar officers and how long do you think it will take them to get there?

There some good punishment. Death cures the dumbest of characters.

\||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||/
- Wes W. Walker (wwalker@****.uark.edu) * "But...Ego *IS* everything." -
- CSCI Major and General Slave * -
- Artiste Wanna-be (accepting donations)* -Me -
/||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||\
Message no. 8
From: Spellslinger <mruane@***.UUG.ARIZONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Change
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:08:27 -0700
On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Wesley W. Walker wrote:

> Skrub wrote:
>
> Whoever wrote:
> > >In my games, I curb this tendency by taking away Karma for killing
> > >innocents or those that do not need to be killed. If they have no good
> > >karma left, I go for Karma pool, then their favorite skill, then an
> > >abbility score, the another skill, etc. Stops them real fast.
>
> > Actually this goes completely against SR's idea of karma, which isn't Karma,
> > but is simply your ability to improve. You get just as accurate shooting at
> > civvies as you do sammies. Shooting innocents is a fact in a cyberpunk
> > setting.
>
> Well, if you're hitting civvies, then you *ain't* hitting your target
> _are_ you? So why give Karma(XP) to chars for screwing up???
Right. If your characters are minions of chaos and think, "Well, the
target is within that building, so let's blow up the block just to make
sure we get him", then they shouldn't get much if not none of the Karma
coming them. Shadowrunners have an air of professionalism around them.
And they should be able to recognize situations where someone can be used
rather than axed. Wasting resources isn't getting better-- it's shooting
yourself in the foot. Besides, what Johnson is going to hire characters
who leave a swath of destruction in their wake? Not many, that's for
sure. You can expect your guys are going to be running for cheap 'cause
they'll be starving from lack of work.
>
> There some good punishment. Death cures the dumbest of characters.
>
This reminds me. Cops don't like Trolls walking around town in Heavy
Security armor. Espc. stupid Trolls. and runners don't like cops
stopping by their holes asking if they've seen a troll in heavy security
armor walking around.

Mike aka Spellslinger
Message no. 9
From: Damion Milliken <u9467882@***.EDU.AU>
Subject: Re: Change
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:51:32 +1100
Wes writes:

> Well, if you're hitting civvies, then you *ain't* hitting your target
> _are_ you? So why give Karma(XP) to chars for screwing up???

If it is a well planned and exectuted run, such as that originally
described, then I don't see a problem (besides the moral ones) of cleaning
up a few civies when you get the target. If the target is that difficult to
obtain a hit on, then the runenrs must've done mighty well to pull of the
assasination without having to resort to motar bombing the entire building.

> If they don't like his morals, they don't have to play under him, do
> they? It's his game.

This is one thing Ivy has thourouly converted me on. I used to believe most
exactly the same as you do. We run the game for our players, so we should
tailor the game to suit them. If your players get bored easily, then you
don't go and give huge descriptions to them (and you're not going to tell me
that if they did, and you wanted to give big descriptions then you would,
who cares about the players. As if you did, then you're a dick). If your
players go for the violence ala cart type style of running, then they're
allowed. If they like (um, whata those super violent and hugely gory
Japanese animations?) type of play, then let them. If on the other hand, you
run your game with the local church youth group, then things might be a
litle different, and you may not want to run your game around ritual
assasinations and murders. A GM can nudge, like with permits, and rep, and
loss of jobs, but he should not push.

Note this is not meant to be taken as a flame (unless you are in the "dick"
class from above, in which case it is).

> Someone starts shooting in the streets, just how far away *are* several
> LoneStar officers and how long do you think it will take them to get there?

Depends entirely on where you are. The runners could open up with most
anything they like in the barrens, and there ain't no cop gunna do shit. Any
runner with half a brain (which is probably not too many, admittedly) will
be somewhat careful when and where to pull out weapons. Even in more secure
sectors, it is still relatively simple to fire a shot or two and escape
police detection, it isn't as if LS has officers pacing every block. Give
them a response time. That is realistic, not like a case of "You fire a
shot, and three seconds later the swap team arrives". Someone who knew
someone in some special response military team (buggered if I know who or
where) said that even with them, the reponse time was measured in the
minutes. Plenty of time for criminal little runners to escape.

> There some good punishment. Death cures the dumbest of characters.

This is true. But it is not advisable. After all, if you have no players,
then that is the end of you, no matter how good a GM you are if no one wants
to play on your table because you kill their characters if they don't agree
with your philosophy, then you are useless.

Spellslinger writes:

> Right. If your characters are minions of chaos and think, "Well, the
> target is within that building, so let's blow up the block just to make
> sure we get him", then they shouldn't get much if not none of the Karma
> coming them. Shadowrunners have an air of professionalism around them.
> And they should be able to recognize situations where someone can be used
> rather than axed. Wasting resources isn't getting better-- it's shooting
> yourself in the foot. Besides, what Johnson is going to hire characters
> who leave a swath of destruction in their wake? Not many, that's for
> sure. You can expect your guys are going to be running for cheap 'cause
> they'll be starving from lack of work.

This is also true. Those kind of things are the subtle and gentle nudge that
GMs can very easily give players who do such things. Unless they were hired
to do that (I have a very fun super violent psycho run designed around
"level this complex, and kill everyone in it" which is quite good for a
change from the normal stealth type runs.)

> This reminds me. Cops don't like Trolls walking around town in Heavy
> Security armor. Espc. stupid Trolls. and runners don't like cops
> stopping by their holes asking if they've seen a troll in heavy security
> armor walking around.

Good advice.

--
Damion Milliken University of Wollongong e-mail: u9467882@***.edu.au

(GEEK CODE 2.1) GE -d+(d) H s++:-- !g p? !au a18 w+ v(?) C+(++) US++ P? L !3 E?
N K- W+ M@ !V po@ Y(+) t+ !5 !j R+(++) G(+)('') !tv(--)@ b++ D+
B? e+ u@ h* f(+) !r n--(----) !y+

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Change, you may also be interested in:

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These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!