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Message no. 1
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:37:19 -0800 (PST)
OK. I was wondering if the following is possible with
Shadowrun® Character Creation Rules:

Create an Elf Nobleman who is either a Full Magician
(Priority A), an Aspected Magician or Adept (Priority
B), who owns his own Matrix game production company in
Portland, Tir Tairngire (would require a lot of money
[High Resources]. This PC would have a Trid
Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
simsense experiences. Plus, I imagine other illusion
spells and spirit assistance would help, though I
can't think of which those might be. Maybe Trid
Phantasm, too? Can you think of any other
possibilities? I suppose ... what would be the minimum
Priority?). Also, I imagine this would require decent
metal Attributes: Charisma to lead a company;
Intelligence to run a company and work Magic; and
Willpower to resist Drain.

Also, are there any spells similar to the Adept
Powers? Could the I make some new ones for the Player
Caracter? But that would probably be considered
cheating since doing so requires a LOT of Karma.

Would it be cheating in SR3 to use the old Experienced
NPC Optional Rules from SR2, p.187? If not, then could
I use some of the extra points to purchase Karma to
design new spells?

Also, would the Points System work better for this
sort of Player Character?

Thanks, guys! :-)

-Scott
Message no. 2
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 06:56:22 +0000
On Dec 6, 2004, at 06:37, Scott Hiller wrote:

> Create an Elf Nobleman who is either a Full Magician
> (Priority A), an Aspected Magician or Adept (Priority
> B), who owns his own Matrix game production company in
> Portland, Tir Tairngire (would require a lot of money
> [High Resources]. This PC would have a Trid
> Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
> simsense experiences. Plus, I imagine other illusion
> spells and spirit assistance would help, though I
> can't think of which those might be. Maybe Trid
> Phantasm, too? Can you think of any other
> possibilities? I suppose ... what would be the minimum
> Priority?). Also, I imagine this would require decent
> metal Attributes: Charisma to lead a company;
> Intelligence to run a company and work Magic; and
> Willpower to resist Drain.

That's probably possible, but not as a player character. The rules as
they are allow you to create shadowrunners, or other characters on that
power level (which is a bit less powerful than a member of the A-Team,
or of the IMF from Mission: Impossible). CEOs are outside the scope of
playability; therefore, they are also outside the scope of the rules.
If Damien Knight had stats, chances are he'd be far beyond the 123
points limit.

That being said, I seem to recall magic has no effect while in the
Matrix. I feel that illusion spells, be they mana or physical,
shouldn't affect someone under the effects of a RAS override (bar
special cases, such as a rigger looking at a physical illusion through
his sensors).

> Also, are there any spells similar to the Adept
> Powers? Could the I make some new ones for the Player
> Caracter? But that would probably be considered
> cheating since doing so requires a LOT of Karma.

You can replicate a lot of adept powers through sustained spells, and
also do some things adepts can't (throwing fireballs being an example).
SR3 and MitS have a fairly broad selection of spells, which allow you
to increase your attributes, your initiative, your stealth, your range
of perceptions, your aim, your armor, your pain resistance... You name
it, they got it.
MitS also has a whole chapter dedicated to spell design, with rules to
codify the effects of a custom spell, its drain, etc.

> Would it be cheating in SR3 to use the old Experienced
> NPC Optional Rules from SR2, p.187? If not, then could
> I use some of the extra points to purchase Karma to
> design new spells?

If you're creating an NPC, then you can't, by definition, be cheating.
When you're the GM, NPCs have the stats you want them to have. The only
"rule" is that once a stat has been used, it doesn't change. IOW, you
may not know how good a shoot your bad guy is, but once you've rolled 6
dice and no combat pool as he attacks a PC, you can't suddenly decide
that for the second burst, suddenly his skill has dropped to 3.

> Also, would the Points System work better for this
> sort of Player Character?

I may be wrong (and it's very late), but I don't think any creation
system will work for this character, as it's obviously an NPC.

Just my £0.02,

-- Max
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 3
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:43:24 -0200
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 06:56:22 +0000, Max Noel <maxnoel_fr@*****.fr> wrote:

> That's probably possible, but not as a player character. The rules as
> they are allow you to create shadowrunners, or other characters on that
> power level (which is a bit less powerful than a member of the A-Team,
> or of the IMF from Mission: Impossible). CEOs are outside the scope of
> playability; therefore, they are also outside the scope of the rules.
> If Damien Knight had stats, chances are he'd be far beyond the 123
> points limit.

Corporate CEOs aren't more powerful than shadowrunners - I doubt there
are many who would last more than a couple of seconds against your
typical street samurai :). You could probably build Damien Knight on a
"starting character" budget, unless your GM decided to charge you for
being in charge of Ares :).

The thing is, not every corporation is a mega. How many corps in
cyberpunk literature are just a "couple of lines of code" on some
computer somewhere? Nothing stops anyone who can come up with the
proper documentation from creating their own corporation, of which
they're the sole employee, owner and CEO.

If one of my players wanted to make a character who owns a
corporation, I'd just make him pay a fee from the PC's starting
resources. He'd also have to buy any equipment owned by his corp, as
well as maintain an additional lifestyle representing all the legal
fees, taxes and additional expenses he has to pay (Squatter is
basically the hosting fee for your couple lines of code. Luxury gives
you a quite nice set of fully-equipped offices.).

Of course, even if you blow a chunk of our money on this corp, it's
not going to be a mega. But it's no less corporate :).

> That being said, I seem to recall magic has no effect while in the
> Matrix. I feel that illusion spells, be they mana or physical,
> shouldn't affect someone under the effects of a RAS override (bar
> special cases, such as a rigger looking at a physical illusion through
> his sensors).

Physical illusion spells can be recorded. Saves a lot on your special
effects budget, even if it gives you a bigger headache at the end of
the workday :).


> I may be wrong (and it's very late), but I don't think any creation
> system will work for this character, as it's obviously an NPC.

What makes this guy NPC material is not the fact that he owns a corp -
it's that he seems to be entirely dedicated to running it. It would
be a bit like playing a cloistered cleric in D&D , a character type
that by definition doesn't go out adventuring and bashing heads in.

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 4
From: jjvanp@*****.com (Jan Jaap van Poelgeest)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:38:55 -0800 (PST)
Bira wrote:

> Corporate CEOs aren't more powerful than
> shadowrunners - I doubt there
> are many who would last more than a couple of
> seconds against your
> typical street samurai :). You could probably build
> Damien Knight on a
> "starting character" budget, unless your GM decided
> to charge you for
> being in charge of Ares :).

Uh, Damien Knight is a *god*. He used to be with Echo
Mirage, IRRC he was part of the nanosecond buyout and
he's become the CEO of a megacorporation without
having any kind of corporate background. Hell, he's
probably battled some Invae just for fun.

DK will have impressive stats... and that's just the
actual character; it ignores all the goodies, contacts
and magic he has access to & control over.

Corporate CEO's don't last long against street sammies
because they don't have to (though DK might put up a
decent fight as he has a military [Echo Mirage]
background). They have their own street sammies to
take out the street sammies while they make Etiquette
(Corporate) rolls while sipping cocktails made with
awakened elderberry juice.

So... Repent Ye Sinner!

On a different note:
For an interesting look at a corporate CEO that goes
adventuring, read the Largo & Winch comics...

Cheers,

Jan Jaap



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Message no. 5
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:18:13 +0000
On Dec 6, 2004, at 13:38, Jan Jaap van Poelgeest wrote:

> Uh, Damien Knight is a *god*. He used to be with Echo
> Mirage, IRRC he was part of the nanosecond buyout and
> he's become the CEO of a megacorporation without
> having any kind of corporate background. Hell, he's
> probably battled some Invae just for fun.

He wasn't just part of the nanosecond buyout, he /is/ the nanosecond
buyout. He's the guy who did it. Well, until of course Jak Koke noticed
that oh, my God, a meaningful event in which neither dragons nor IEs
were involved! Can't fight the urge, metahumanity /must not/ have done
anything cool all by itself! :/
...So actually, Dunkelzahn was the real brains of the operation,
although Knight still had a high degree of involvement in the thing
(he's probably the one who did the actual coding). And he would have
gotten away with it if it hadn't been for-

Nevertheless, Damien Knight often played chess with the Big D (I
wonder if he's playing against Lofwyr now...). Which means he was at
least good enough for a great dragon to consider him as an interesting
opponent, perhaps even to win every once in a while.

Thus, his Int alone is probably 9 or 10 (Exceptional Attribute).

> On a different note:
> For an interesting look at a corporate CEO that goes
> adventuring, read the Largo & Winch comics...

I'll second that. Largo Winch is quite interesting (although not as
good as XIII, as far as J. Van Hamme is concerned... but I digress).

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"
Message no. 6
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 08:30:03 -0700
On Sun, 5 Dec 2004 22:37:19 -0800 (PST), Scott Hiller
<scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
> OK. I was wondering if the following is possible with
> Shadowrun® Character Creation Rules:
>
> Create an Elf Nobleman who is either a Full Magician
> (Priority A), an Aspected Magician or Adept (Priority
> B),

Sure.

> who owns his own Matrix game production company in
> Portland, Tir Tairngire (would require a lot of money
> [High Resources].

No. Max Resources is Ny1,000,000 (IIRC). Ownership of a software
company would require minimum 10s of millions of dollars.

> This PC would have a Trid
> Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
> simsense experiences.

Since simsense is virtual reality, ie plugged directly into the brain,
I don't see how any of the entertainment spells could add to the
experience. Its already like you're really there.

> Would it be cheating in SR3 to use the old Experienced
> NPC Optional Rules from SR2, p.187?

If your GM is running an SR3 game, yes. If your GM doesn't mind, no.

--
-Graht
Message no. 7
From: zadoc@***.neu.edu (Damian)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:51:40 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Graht wrote:

> > who owns his own Matrix game production company in
> > Portland, Tir Tairngire (would require a lot of money
> > [High Resources].
>
> No. Max Resources is Ny1,000,000 (IIRC). Ownership of a software
> company would require minimum 10s of millions of dollars.

Well, that depends on how big it is. A small company, with small
distribution could be worth far less. The future equivilent of a 'big
shareware company' would be fairly small, might have less than a dozen
employees, and not be worth too much, but is still a viable company, which
could provide some income.

If it's being publicly traded, he could be the 'owner', but not have
access to all the money involved in the business himself. The company
could be worth millions, but he couldn't spend it.

> > This PC would have a Trid
> > Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
> > simsense experiences.
>
> Since simsense is virtual reality, ie plugged directly into the brain,
> I don't see how any of the entertainment spells could add to the
> experience. Its already like you're really there.

It would seem like a good way to limit the cost of set up and effects. If
you have one 'main actor' wired to record the simsense, and a big, open
warehouse, you could use Trid Entertainment to create the backdrops,
ambient noise, and all the other things that should be in a
catacomb/starship/forest, or whatever locale the game is set in.

And, if the owner of the company is that actively involved in creating
games, either he is *really* interested in it, or it's a very small
company.
Message no. 8
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 09:02:24 -0700
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:51:40 -0500 (EST), Damian <zadoc@***.neu.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Graht wrote:
>
> > > who owns his own Matrix game production company in
> > > Portland, Tir Tairngire (would require a lot of money
> > > [High Resources].
> >
> > No. Max Resources is Ny1,000,000 (IIRC). Ownership of a software
> > company would require minimum 10s of millions of dollars.
>
> Well, that depends on how big it is. A small company, with small
> distribution could be worth far less. The future equivilent of a 'big
> shareware company' would be fairly small, might have less than a dozen
> employees, and not be worth too much, but is still a viable company, which
> could provide some income.

Equipment + payroll + benefits + building lease + who knows what else
= lots and lots of money.

> If it's being publicly traded, he could be the 'owner', but not have
> access to all the money involved in the business himself. The company
> could be worth millions, but he couldn't spend it.

Based on Scott's earlier posts, I'm assuming that he wants his
character to *own* the company ;)

> > > This PC would have a Trid
> > > Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
> > > simsense experiences.
> >
> > Since simsense is virtual reality, ie plugged directly into the brain,
> > I don't see how any of the entertainment spells could add to the
> > experience. Its already like you're really there.
>
> It would seem like a good way to limit the cost of set up and effects. If
> you have one 'main actor' wired to record the simsense, and a big, open
> warehouse, you could use Trid Entertainment to create the backdrops,
> ambient noise, and all the other things that should be in a
> catacomb/starship/forest, or whatever locale the game is set in.

Soo... he's going to make a propriatory simsense that isn't as good as
regular simsense (or perhaps purchase first generation simsense
somewhere for dirt cheap), and then use spells to bring it up to
current Simsense standards, and then try to sell this to people...

> And, if the owner of the company is that actively involved in creating
> games, either he is *really* interested in it, or it's a very small
> company.

Which brings up another point. If the "character" is the owner and
the primary operator, then he isn't a shadowrunner (doesn't have the
skills or the time and he's to well known (has an identity)).

--
-Graht
Message no. 9
From: DaTwinkDaddy@*****.com (Da Twink Daddy)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 16:18:05 +0000
On Monday 06 December 2004 03:30 pm, Graht <Graht <graht1@*****.com>> wrote:
> No. Max Resources is Ny1,000,000 (IIRC). Ownership of a software
> company would require minimum 10s of millions of dollars.

Heh. I owned a software company, and I don't have 10s of millions of dollars
(not did I at the time). It's actually fairly trivial to set up a company.
I think another poster's suggestion of useing the lifestyle rules seems fine,
although even at the luxury level, the company isn't that big.

--
ICQ: 514984 YM/AIM: DaTwinkDaddy
Message no. 10
From: zadoc@***.neu.edu (Damian)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 11:28:10 -0500 (EST)
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004, Graht wrote:

> > Well, that depends on how big it is. A small company, with small
> > distribution could be worth far less. The future equivilent of a 'big
> > shareware company' would be fairly small, might have less than a dozen
> > employees, and not be worth too much, but is still a viable company, which
> > could provide some income.
>
> Equipment + payroll + benefits + building lease + who knows what else
> = lots and lots of money.

Assuming it's a viable business, there would be some amount of income from
the business, which should cover everything but starting equipment. I
can't say if a starting character could afford that equipment, though.

> > If it's being publicly traded, he could be the 'owner', but not have
> > access to all the money involved in the business himself. The company
> > could be worth millions, but he couldn't spend it.
>
> Based on Scott's earlier posts, I'm assuming that he wants his
> character to *own* the company ;)

It's an option. If he owns 51% of the company, he's likely considered the
owner, and has almost twice as much money to work with. It would be a
fairly small company, though.

He could own it outright, but that would be more difficult.

Some of the equipment could even be useful in Shadowrunning. Weaponry
would probably be a porro choice (being registered, and likely
distinctive), but other, more generic equipment might serve both purposes.

> > > > This PC would have a Trid
> > > > Entertainment: 6 spell to add to the Matrix games'
> > > > simsense experiences.
> > >
> > > Since simsense is virtual reality, ie plugged directly into the brain,
> > > I don't see how any of the entertainment spells could add to the
> > > experience. Its already like you're really there.
> >
> > It would seem like a good way to limit the cost of set up and effects. If
> > you have one 'main actor' wired to record the simsense, and a big, open
> > warehouse, you could use Trid Entertainment to create the backdrops,
> > ambient noise, and all the other things that should be in a
> > catacomb/starship/forest, or whatever locale the game is set in.
>
> Soo... he's going to make a propriatory simsense that isn't as good as
> regular simsense (or perhaps purchase first generation simsense
> somewhere for dirt cheap), and then use spells to bring it up to
> current Simsense standards, and then try to sell this to people...

I think there's room for that sort of business. 'Low budget' games are
made and sold today, for some amount of profit. It's not the same business
a major game companies does, but they seem to do well enough to continue
doing it. He couldn't do the business of Ubisoft or Bioware, but he could
probably manage games of the same level as Ambrosia or Popcap,
comparitively.

> > And, if the owner of the company is that actively involved in creating
> > games, either he is *really* interested in it, or it's a very small
> > company.
>
> Which brings up another point. If the "character" is the owner and
> the primary operator, then he isn't a shadowrunner (doesn't have the
> skills or the time and he's to well known (has an identity)).

I think that's the most important point. Owning and running a company is
busy work, especially if he's actively involved in creating the product.
I'd think he'd have trouble making the time, and justifying the risk, to
go on Shadowruns.

I suppose he could be like a specialist. He knows some 'runners, and they
call him when they have a plan that involves magic. Of course, he'd have
to *really* trust them, since he'd have little involvement in choosing
missions, researching them, or 'dropping off' any retrieved goods. He'd
also be limited to one or two day runs in his general area, and one run
gone bad could completely ruin his company, via his exposure or simply his
long-term absence. He'd certainly have the power to step away from the
company for a weekend, but disappearing for a month is likely to ruin any
schedule he might have.
Message no. 11
From: u.alberton@*****.com (Bira)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2004 14:53:11 -0200
On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 05:38:55 -0800 (PST), Jan Jaap van Poelgeest
<jjvanp@*****.com> wrote:
> Bira wrote:
>
> Uh, Damien Knight is a *god*. He used to be with Echo
> Mirage, IRRC he was part of the nanosecond buyout and
> he's become the CEO of a megacorporation without
> having any kind of corporate background. Hell, he's
> probably battled some Invae just for fun.

Well, I know he's an arbitrarily good programmer according to canon
(having coded the Crash Virus just for fun, or somesuch), but I don't
think he's all that in other areas. And besides, you don't have to be
an "arbitrary" character do be a CEO.

In a game where every NPC seems to be completely overpowering in some
way or another because of GM tradition, there are actually a few
titles that are quite easy to achieve :).

--
Bira
http://compexplicita.blogspot.com
Message no. 12
From: marc.renouf@******.com (Renouf, Marc A)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:25:08 -0500
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: scotthiller2002@*****.com [mailto:scotthiller2002@*****.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 1:37 AM
>
> OK. I was wondering if the following is possible with
> Shadowrun(r) Character Creation Rules:

I am once again forced to ask if you are creating a PC or an NPC.
I'm fuzzy on what you're trying to accomplish here.

Marc

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Message no. 13
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:54:31 -0800 (PST)
On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:25:08, according to Renouf, Marc
A, word on the street is:

>I am once again forced to ask if you are creating a
PC or an NPC.
> I'm fuzzy on what you're trying to accomplish here.
>
>Marc

That's cool. I appologize for not communicating that
before. What I'm doing is essentially an NPC, since
he's doing things like running his own small company.
(I wouldn't think PC's would have a chance to really
do that), but I'd like to roll for his success tests,
too, just as for any PC to kind of put him on an even
playing field as the other Characters. For example,
his grandson is in the Chicago CZ and he'll go there
himself to rescue him if need-be.

Hope that clears things up. :-)

-Scott
Message no. 14
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:05:49 -0700
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 08:54:31 -0800 (PST), Scott Hiller
<scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 13:25:08, according to Renouf, Marc
> A, word on the street is:
>
> >I am once again forced to ask if you are creating a
> PC or an NPC.
> > I'm fuzzy on what you're trying to accomplish here.
> >
> >Marc
>
> That's cool. I appologize for not communicating that
> before. What I'm doing is essentially an NPC, since
> he's doing things like running his own small company.
> (I wouldn't think PC's would have a chance to really
> do that), but I'd like to roll for his success tests,
> too, just as for any PC to kind of put him on an even
> playing field as the other Characters. For example,
> his grandson is in the Chicago CZ and he'll go there
> himself to rescue him if need-be.
>
> Hope that clears things up. :-)

You do know that the character creation rules are for making *player*
characters, and that the GM doesn't have to use them for NPCs, right?
:)

I mean, it's a good idea for a starting GM to use the character
creation rules for his NPCs, so that he can create balanced NPCs, but
once you get the hang of the game just scribble down whatever numbers
that are appropriate for the NPC you're making, and then only the
numbers you'll need (i.e., don't waste time figuring out the NPCs long
distance calling plan for example ;).

--
-Graht
Message no. 15
From: korishinzo@*****.com (Ice Heart)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:19:47 -0800 (PST)
> You do know that the character creation rules are for making
> *player* characters, and that the GM doesn't have to use them for
> NPCs, right? :)
>
> I mean, it's a good idea for a starting GM to use the character
> creation rules for his NPCs, so that he can create balanced NPCs,
> but once you get the hang of the game just scribble down whatever
> numbers that are appropriate for the NPC you're making, and then
> only the numbers you'll need (i.e., don't waste time figuring out
> the NPCs long distance calling plan for example ;).

I have to agree with this. You simply can't put this level of detail
into every NPC. No way, no how. And if you put this level of detail
into one NPC, but not others, your players are going to be
suspicious. This is the way I would make your corp CEO guy. The
first time I thought about him, I'd jot down some quick notes.

"Elf, corp CEO (small Matrix game developer), Awakened (Chaos
magician/good with Illusions), any family details I thought of, any
important decriptive details I visualized, from the Tir."

Something like that. The first time I had to roll dice for him, I'd
think for just a second about what seems reasonable, and write it
down.

'Oh, he needs to see if he notices the blatant paranoia of the ork
PC. Does he have any psych skill? Nah, not as such. But, years of
corp management have given him a People Reading knowledge, basically
a highly specialized, practical application of Psych. He has a 4.
<scribble scribble>, <roll dice>.'

Then...

'Oh, and now I need to see how he handles the ork's rudeness and
paranoia. He's an elf, a long time manager, and skilled at what he
does. Charisma is a 6. <scribble>, <roll>.'

Every detail of the NPC gets decided AS NEEDED. Once a number is
decided on, it gets written down. The NPC character sheet grows over
time. Do I need to have him talk to a fixer to get the PCs over a
border? Time to think about contacts for a sec. Does he know one?
Yes, I decide. Fixer is a Level 1... has helped him deal with a few
small time competitors over the years... various ways. They are
cooly professional to one another. Hardly friends. This will cost a
bit of money, so the PCs get a little less cash on this one.
<scribble> <scribble>.

I do this for two main reasons. First, if you spend days on end
detailing every aspect of an NPC, you are going to want to use them.
What if the PCs take one look at your elf nobleman and say "Frag you,
we don't want to work for no rich dandelion eater!" before bolting
back to their favorite bar and trying to bait the local street gang
into a shoot out? All your effort is wasted. And you are left
trying to decide if you even care about developing Riptide, the dwarf
gang lieutenant from Puyallup. NPCs should only get committed to
your records in proportions to the attention your players pay them.
If they are going to make a brief appearance and then vanish, a
physical description and a name is ALL they need. And, trust me,
your players don't want your pet NPCs rammed down their throat. If
they want to ignore an NPC, you are best served in letting them.
Make them feel, however illusiory the feeling is, that THEY decide
what is important to their charcters. The second reason is time. I
don't have time to spend even an hour prepping for a single game
session usually. I can't begin to imagine how much time you've spent
on this stuff already, before a single die is rolled. I can jot down
in about 20 seconds enough notes to visualize an NPC I've thought up.
Everything else gets generated through use. I am fair about it.
NPCs don't suddenly have shoulder mounted Firelance lasers because I
don't want them dead. They are balanced. They might break the
occasional char gen rule, but who cares? They are not starting
characters. They are usually more limited in scope than a starting
character. Less raw potential. More specialized. My average NPCs
sit at around 50-70 BP equivalence, for their actual stats and
carried gear. Now, my corp CEO happens to also have a permanent high
lifestyle and run a company valued at 20 million. There is implied
gear and resources in this that exceed what a PC can start with.
But, the corp is an NPC unto itself. If Mr. CEO decides to send a
wing of fully armed Yellowjackets with combat riggers in the cockpit
after the NPCs, he has to account for them somehow. There is a paper
trail. Resources are exhausted. More notes get jotted down and the
plot thickens. How did a software company come by heavy security
hardware and personnel? Why? How does Mr. CEO justify a particular
use? But none of that needs to be planned out in exacting detail
UNLESS and UNTIL it is needed.

Because of this, I am never attached to an NPC, or piece of real
estate, or a plot line. The players can decide to walk away from any
Mr. Johnson, any job, any place... and I am out maybe 15 minutes of
note writing, at most. And if an idea was really neat, I can reuse
it later. Same game or different game. Doesn't matter. Mysterious
elf Mr. J tries to hire PCs to steal Matrix game code from Company Z.
Players say, "Ewww... fancy pants elf with snooty accent. Yech.
Frag no." So, I mark that NPC retired for now. And a few sessions
later, a middle aged suit from the Seattle offices of a matrix game
producer hires the PCs to reroute a competitors shipment into the
bay. I get to use my company after all. Albeit, perhaps no longer
Tir based, and with someone else at the helm. Doesn't matter. I am
flexible because I did not spend 20 hours scribbling every minute
detail of my NPCs, their toys, and the houses where they live.

As a GM, you have 6 billion NPCs, an entire globe's worth of real
estate, the complete social/political/econimic infrastructure of said
globe to keep track of, play with, and present. Don't spend time on
any of it that does not directly effect your PCs, and make the time
spent proportional to the attention they give it. Any other
approach, and you end up forcing them to give something attention in
proportion to the time you spend creating it, and that is not fair or
fun for players.

======Korishinzo
--getting tired of reading



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Message no. 16
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Wed, 8 Dec 2004 19:43:56 +0100
According to Ice Heart, on Wednesday 08 December 2004 19:19 the word on the
street was...

> I have to agree with this. You simply can't put this level of detail
> into every NPC. No way, no how.

The impression I get from Scott's posts over the past couple of years is
that that's the kind of detail he _does_ try to put into everything :) I
mean, when asking about, for example, contacts, other people would
probably say "like a corporate decker, a bartender, or a fence" while
Scott provided an exhaustive list of every type of contact he apparently
could think of :)

> Something like that. The first time I had to roll dice for him, I'd
> think for just a second about what seems reasonable, and write it
> down.

Same here, except I don't usually write it down :) I just go with what
seems appropriate for the NPC and situation, and leave it at that. "This
human street sam just got shot by a PC; Body 8 sounds OK for that kind of
character, so I'll roll eight dice plus a few Combat Pool dice, however
many of those he may have..."

> Every detail of the NPC gets decided AS NEEDED.

Exactly. If you don't need to know a number just yet, don't bother with it
unless it'll become important later on and you want to get it written down
already so you'll remember.

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Kemen (keemde, h gekeemd): het spelen van computerspelletjes
-> Possibly NAGEE Editor & ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Site: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
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Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 17
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:05:02 -0800 (PST)
OnWed, 8 Dec 2004 10:05:49, Graht <graht1@*****.com>
wrote:
>You do know that the character creation rules are for
making *player*
>characters, and that the GM doesn't have to use them
for NPCs, right?
>:)
>
>I mean, it's a good idea for a starting GM to use the
character
>creation rules for his NPCs, so that he can create
balanced NPCs, but
>once you get the hang of the game just scribble down
whatever >numbers
>that are appropriate for the NPC you're making, and
then only the
>numbers you'll need (i.e., don't waste time figuring
out the NPCs long
>distance calling plan for example ;).
>
>--
>-Graht

Yes. I do know that :-) I'm running these characters
in a fiction writing project I am currently partaking
in. A few of my friends are RPGing the others
(Bulldog, Momaqui, Nitro, and Trumpkin) while I'm
personally RPGing 2 (Craith and Aderynn). So, I'm
rolling for them and have decided to flesh them out
for continuity's sake in the story. They've designed
their own PC's and fleshed them out on their own.

Craith is the main PC in the story, all the others are
supporting PCs, but PCs nonetheless. I guess that was
what I was trying to say.

-Scott
Message no. 18
From: graht1@*****.com (Graht)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 14:08:18 -0700
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:05:02 -0800 (PST), Scott Hiller
<scotthiller2002@*****.com> wrote:
>
> Craith is the main PC in the story, all the others are
> supporting PCs, but PCs nonetheless. I guess that was
> what I was trying to say.

Ah, got it :)

Yeah, if you're making characters for a group project then a high
level of detail would be required so that the other people know who
the character is.

--
-Graht
Message no. 19
From: scotthiller2002@*****.com (Scott Hiller)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 13:29:31 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 8 Dec 2004 10:19:47, Ice Heart
<korishinzo@*****.com> wrote:

>I have to agree with this. You simply can't put this
level of detail
>into every NPC. No way, no how. And if you put this
level of detail
>into one NPC, but not others, your players are going
to be
>suspicious. This is the way I would make your corp
CEO guy. The
>first time I thought about him, I'd jot down some
quick notes.

Again, I appologize for not communicating it beofre,
but he's actually a supporting PC in a story I'm
creating. So, I guess saying he was an NPC was a
misnomer. Sorry.
>
>"Elf, corp CEO (small Matrix game developer),
Awakened (Chaos
>magician/good with Illusions), any family details I
thought of, any
>important decriptive details I visualized, from the
Tir."
>
>Something like that. The first time I had to roll
dice for him, I'd
>think for just a second about what seems reasonable,
and write it
>down.
>
>'Oh, he needs to see if he notices the blatant
paranoia of the ork
>PC. Does he have any psych skill? Nah, not as such.
But, years of
>corp management have given him a People Reading
knowledge, >basically
>a highly specialized, practical application of Psych.
He has a 4.
><scribble scribble>, <roll dice>.'
>
>Then...
>
>'Oh, and now I need to see how he handles the ork's
rudeness and
>paranoia. He's an elf, a long time manager, and
skilled at what he
>does. Charisma is a 6. <scribble>, <roll>.'

Sounds cool.
>
>Every detail of the NPC gets decided AS NEEDED. Once
a number is
>decided on, it gets written down. The NPC character
sheet grows >over
>time. Do I need to have him talk to a fixer to get
the PCs over a
>border? Time to think about contacts for a sec.
Does he know one?
>Yes, I decide. Fixer is a Level 1... has helped him
deal with a few
>small time competitors over the years... various
ways. They are
>cooly professional to one another. Hardly friends.
This will cost a
>bit of money, so the PCs get a little less cash on
this one.
><scribble> <scribble>.

Exactly. Now, I've got NPC's in the story that I
HAVEN'T fully detailed (believe it or not) :-) and
simply used every so often. But, the PC's and the
supporting PC's I'll go ahead and detail ... just so
that I have some continuity to the PC and his or her
environment. I'll do this even for supporting PC's
(again, formerly mis-spoke as NPCs).
>
>I do this for two main reasons. First, if you spend
days on end
>detailing every aspect of an NPC, you are going to
want to use them.
>What if the PCs take one look at your elf nobleman
and say "Frag you,
>we don't want to work for no rich dandelion eater!"
before bolting
>back to their favorite bar and trying to bait the
local street gang
>into a shoot out? All your effort is wasted. And
you are left
>trying to decide if you even care about developing
Riptide, the dwarf
>gang lieutenant from Puyallup. NPCs should only get
committed to
>your records in proportions to the attention your
players pay them.
>If they are going to make a brief appearance and then
vanish, a
>physical description and a name is ALL they need.
And, trust me,
>your players don't want your pet NPCs rammed down
their throat. If
>they want to ignore an NPC, you are best served in
letting them.
>Make them feel, however illusiory the feeling is,
that THEY decide
>what is important to their charcters. The second
reason is time. I
>don't have time to spend even an hour prepping for a
single game
>session usually. I can't begin to imagine how much
time you've spent
>on this stuff already, before a single die is rolled.


Actually, I've spent a little time here and a little
time there and just built it up over time. I DO work,
pay bills, go out with friends, see family, etc. :-)

>I can jot down
>in about 20 seconds enough notes to visualize an NPC
I've thought >up.
> Everything else gets generated through use. I am
fair about it.
>NPCs don't suddenly have shoulder mounted Firelance
lasers because >I
>don't want them dead.

Yeah, munchkins aren't generally fun to use.

>They are balanced. They might break the
>occasional char gen rule, but who cares? They are
not starting
>characters. They are usually more limited in scope
than a starting
>character. Less raw potential. More specialized.
My average NPCs
>sit at around 50-70 BP equivalence, for their actual
stats and
>carried gear.

The 50-70 BP is ON TOP of the other BPs used for
Attributes, Skills, etc.?

>Now, my corp CEO happens to also have a permanent
>high
>lifestyle and run a company valued at 20 million.
There is implied
>gear and resources in this that exceed what a PC can
start with.
>But, the corp is an NPC unto itself. If Mr. CEO
decides to send a
>wing of fully armed Yellowjackets with combat riggers
in the cockpit
>after the NPCs, he has to account for them somehow.
There is a >paper
>trail. Resources are exhausted. More notes get
jotted down and the
>plot thickens. How did a software company come by
heavy security
>hardware and personnel? Why? How does Mr. CEO
justify a particular
>use? But none of that needs to be planned out in
exacting detail
>UNLESS and UNTIL it is needed.

Exactly.
>
>Because of this, I am never attached to an NPC, or
piece of real
>estate, or a plot line. The players can decide to
walk away from any
>Mr. Johnson, any job, any place... and I am out maybe
15 minutes of
>note writing, at most. And if an idea was really
neat, I can reuse
>it later. Same game or different game. Doesn't
matter. Mysterious
>elf Mr. J tries to hire PCs to steal Matrix game code
from Company Z.
>Players say, "Ewww... fancy pants elf with snooty
accent. Yech.
>Frag no." So, I mark that NPC retired for now. And
a few sessions
>later, a middle aged suit from the Seattle offices of
a matrix game
>producer hires the PCs to reroute a competitors
shipment into the
>bay. I get to use my company after all. Albeit,
perhaps no longer
>Tir based, and with someone else at the helm.
Doesn't matter. I am
>flexible because I did not spend 20 hours scribbling
every minute
>detail of my NPCs, their toys, and the houses where
they live.

Again, I mis-spoke myself, he's actually a Player
Character since I am technically RPGing him. He's an
active participant in the story line and not just
sitting on the sidelines like a typical Mr. J or
Fixer.
>
>As a GM, you have 6 billion NPCs, an entire globe's
worth of real
>estate, the complete social/political/econimic
infrastructure of said
>globe to keep track of, play with, and present.
Don't spend time on
>any of it that does not directly effect your PCs, and
make the time
>spent proportional to the attention they give it.
Any other
>approach, and you end up forcing them to give
something attention >in
>proportion to the time you spend creating it, and
that is not fair or
>fun for players.

I'm sorry, but I'm confused when you said, "Any
otherapproach, and you end up forcing them to give
something attention in proportion to the time you
spend creating it, and that is not fair or fun for
players."

Did you mean to say that forcing Players to spend a
lot of time over a considerably minute issue isn't
fair to them? If so, I agree. And that is not what I'm
doing. What's happening is I'll start the write up
after they have made their PCs. As the story rolls
along, I'll occasionally email them and have them roll
with an on-line dice roller program to determing their
Characters' successes at certain tasks. Then, whatever
the results are, I'll write those up in the story.
And, if they don't have time to roll right away, then
that's okay. Whenever they get the time to get back to
me is cool. They enjoy it and they enjoy getting the
write-ups back from me to see what happens with their
PC's.

-Scott

>
>======>Korishinzo
>--getting tired of reading
Message no. 20
From: maxnoel_fr@*****.fr (Max Noel)
Subject: Character Creation Question
Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2004 23:41:16 +0000
On Dec 9, 2004, at 21:29, Scott Hiller wrote:

> The 50-70 BP is ON TOP of the other BPs used for
> Attributes, Skills, etc.?

No, that would be 50-70 BP on top of all gear and magic. IOW, 50-70
BPs worth of relevant Skills and Attributes (all 6 Attributes, and some
skills they're gonna use).

> I'm sorry, but I'm confused when you said, "Any
> otherapproach, and you end up forcing them to give
> something attention in proportion to the time you
> spend creating it, and that is not fair or fun for
> players."
>
> Did you mean to say that forcing Players to spend a
> lot of time over a considerably minute issue isn't
> fair to them? If so, I agree. And that is not what I'm
> doing. What's happening is I'll start the write up
> after they have made their PCs. As the story rolls
> along, I'll occasionally email them and have them roll
> with an on-line dice roller program to determing their
> Characters' successes at certain tasks. Then, whatever
> the results are, I'll write those up in the story.
> And, if they don't have time to roll right away, then
> that's okay. Whenever they get the time to get back to
> me is cool. They enjoy it and they enjoy getting the
> write-ups back from me to see what happens with their
> PC's.

No, what Kori means is that if you spend too much time working on an
NPC, you're going to want to use him and get him involved with the PCs
no matter what. If you spend 10 hours creating a Mr. Johnson NPC, with
complex background, personality, etc., and the players just say "no,
thanks" and walk away when he offers them a job, chances are you'll try
to bring him back (often using improbable and/or frustrating means)
until they *do* accept his job... Don't you think?

Of course, if all these characters are PCs, it makes more sense now.

-- Wild_Cat
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"


--
maxnoel_fr at yahoo dot fr -- ICQ #85274019
"Look at you hacker... A pathetic creature of meat and bone, panting
and sweating as you run through my corridors... How can you challenge a
perfect, immortal machine?"

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