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Message no. 1
From: Steve Collins <steve_collins@********.ALEWIFE.KODAK.COM>
Subject: FWD> Character Death was RE
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 15:31:22 U
Mail*Link® SMTP FWD> Character Death was RE>Karma pool

Date: 12/18/1996 01:07 PM
From: M.J.Steedman@***.rgu.ac.uk
>> That said, we've never had a single PC die - more through clever =
playing
>> than GM kindness, I'd like to think.
>>
> Not lost any PC's ! well done.
> I haven't had any of mine killed yet, generally by knowing when to
> duck and diving for cover before trying to kill the bad guys.
>
> I have as a GM however done in quite a few. Getting their throats
> slit by gangers seems to be a favourite, or using magic while a
> mundanes covering them with a gun and expecting not to get shot :(
>
> It's notable that the more experienced players don't lose characers,
> i think all the dead ones were stupid, got caught in the middle of
> really heavy fire (they need not have been standing in had they done
> better) or reacted badly to 'you now have a cotrex bomb'. (5
> installed so far :)', 2 detonated, 3 removed. (but they didn't solve
> the blood samples :) hehe.he..., pity that lot retired)
>
> Mark


Gee I've never had one of my characters die off either. Of course I have =
only played Shadowrun about 6 times. As a GM ( I am always the GM :< ) I =
can only remember 1 character dying on a run. A Fire Elemental Adept who =
decided to stand up to 5 guys with SMG's she casts fireball, 3 of them die =
the remaining 2 open fire resulting in 2 serious wounds (She's dead JIm) =
of course this action of hers did allow the rest of the party to escape so =
it wasn't in vain. I had 1 character die of terminal stupidity on the =
players part. After a run when he had some spare cash he decided to get =
some more Cyber installed. A week or so later I did one of my periodic =
character reviews and found that this character had 32 (that's right 32 =
not 3.2) points worth of cyber in his body ( this was 3 years ago long =
before Cybertechnology too ) to go along with 16 points worth of Biowear. =
He had apparently just been adding whatever he wanted right along only =
this time he bothered to tell me and actually pay for it. I used it for =
the basis of the next run. Gee anybody seen The Sarge ( his name ) around =
lately I heard he was goin in to get some more cyber but that was months =
ago. The Doc had chopped him and got rich by selling the parts and was =
living it up in the Riviera. After that I wouldn't allow this player to =
write anything on his character sheets. And finally there was the time I =
told the entire party to just give me their character sheets because they =
were all dead. There were being paid by Renraku to Aquire some code that =
this company in the Ute Nation was working then destroy all the copies. =
They hosed the run totally when the Cat Shaman was captured doing some =
scouting while invisible. The rest of the party decided to try and rescue =
him and conduct thi run like a military strike. They figured they could =
deal with site security and just had to be out of there before the FRT's =
showed up ( There were after all 15 runners involved I had that many =
players ). Well they just kept hosing things up and had to fight the first =
2 squads who were Heloborne before they were able to scatter just a few =
seconds ahead of the National Guard. The reason they all died, the managed =
to have their decker get the code, but they still had to destroy all =
copies and were worried that there might be a hard copy somewhere so they =
sent an Earth Elemental carrying 50 kilo's of C-12 back into the building =
while they were escaping and blew it up. There were still over 250 people =
inside at the time. Even this was not enough to ensure their deaths except =
one of the player characters bodies had been left behind in the final =
retreat. Who was this character, why a former Renraku Company man. Now =
their employer is linked to the run however small that link was. Well to =
avoid nasty probing questions Renraku "cooperated fully with Ute =
Authorities in bringing these international terrorists to justice and =
provided video's of all the dead mand known associates while they were =
conducting a "revenge run on Renraku ", it was actually a doctored version =
of them walking down the corrodors of the Renraku office that they went to =
meet their Johnson in. I just decided they were all dead and gave each one =
of them a quick description of how it happened for him ( usually Ritual =
sendings )
Message no. 2
From: David Thompson <david.s.thompson@****.EDU>
Subject: Re: FWD> Character Death was RE
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 1996 19:29:44 -0500
Steve Collins wrote:

>Gee I've never had one of my characters die off either. Of course I have
only played Shadowrun about 6 times. As a GM ( I am always the GM :< ) I can
only remember 1 character dying on a run. A Fire Elemental Adept who decided
to stand up to 5 guys with SMG's she casts fireball, 3 of them die the
remaining 2 open fire resulting in 2 serious wounds (She's dead JIm) of
course this action of hers did allow the rest of the party to escape so it
wasn't in vain. I had 1 character die of terminal stupidity on the players
part. After a run when he had some spare cash he decided to get some more
Cyber installed. A week or so later I did one of my periodic character
reviews and found that this character had 32 (that's right 32 not 3.2)
points worth of cyber in his body ( this was 3 years ago long before
Cybertechnology too ) to go along with 16 points worth of Biowear. He had
apparently just been adding whatever he wanted right along only this time he
bothered to tell me and actually pay for it. I used it for the basis of the
next run. Gee anybody seen The Sarge ( his name ) around lately I heard he
was goin in to get some more cyber but that was months ago. The Doc had
chopped him and got rich by selling the parts and was living it up in the
Riviera. After that I wouldn't allow this player to write anything on his
character sheets. And finally there was the time I told the entire party to
just give me their character sheets because they were all dead. There were
being paid by Renraku to Aquire some code that this company in the Ute
Nation was working then destroy all the copies. They hosed the run totally
when the Cat Shaman was captured doing some scouting while invisible. The
rest of the party decided to try and rescue him and conduct thi run like a
military strike. They figured they could deal with site security and just
had to be out of there before the FRT's showed up ( There were after all 15
runners involved I had that many players ). Well they just kept hosing
things up and had to fight the first 2 squads who were Heloborne before they
were able to scatter just a few seconds ahead of the National Guard. The
reason they all died, the managed to have their decker get the code, but
they still had to destroy all copies and were worried that there might be a
hard copy somewhere so they sent an Earth Elemental carrying 50 kilo's of
C-12 back into the building while they were escaping and blew it up. There
were still over 250 people inside at the time. Even this was not enough to
ensure their deaths except one of the player characters bodies had been left
behind in the final retreat. Who was this character, why a former Renraku
Company man. Now their employer is linked to the run however small that link
was. Well to avoid nasty probing questions Renraku "cooperated fully with
Ute Authorities in bringing these international terrorists to justice and
provided video's of all the dead mand known associates while they were
conducting a "revenge run on Renraku ", it was actually a doctored version
of them walking down the corrodors of the Renraku office that they went to
meet their Johnson in. I just decided they were all dead and gave each one
of them a quick description of how it happened for him ( usually Ritual
sendings )
>
Sorry to say it, but this is exactly the kind of thing I don't like. Sure,
I agree that the players completely hosed the run, but whenever the GM
decides to wipe out the whole party because he doesn't like how things went,
I think that is a waste. Instead, face them with the consequences of their
actions. Give them a chance to survive and learn. What I would have done
was to actually decide what kind of forces would come after them and make
them deal with that as the next set of adventures or two. Then, if any of
the party survived that (which would at this point require intelligent
thought and cooperation) give them an out -- something they can give to
Renraku or the Ute people to get them free. I've had characters killed by
GM's because of things like this, actually less drastic though. I had a GM
send huge magical and mundane forces after the party, chasing us and
disorienting us with the troops, and then killing us all by a combination of
suprise, huge elementals, and some invisible (as in really not present, even
to astral perception) mage casting mind control on the guy with the minigun.
It was a waste, and the whole reason he did it was because he decided we had
taken too much time and wanted the adventure over with. (Oh, and the only
reason he had suprise was because he decided to ignore me and one other list
member yelling at him that we wanted to post watches and patrols -- remember
this Club?).

Anyway, I think it is pointless to just declare the characters dead.

--Sanction
Message no. 3
From: Mark Steedman <M.J.Steedman@***.RGU.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: FWD> Character Death was RE
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 11:30:17 GMT
David Thompson writes

> Steve Collins wrote:
>
note please limit lines at 200 characters pref 70 or so, i origonally
go about 3 lines of your huge post.
[lopping mode engage]

> >Gee I've never had one of my characters die off either. Of course I have
> only played Shadowrun about 6 times. As a GM ( I am always the GM :< ) I can
> only remember 1 character dying on a run. A Fire Elemental Adept
not such a suprise, however courageous action, assuming the aim was
party saving in the first place.

> After a run when he had some spare cash he decided to get some more
> Cyber installed. A week or so later I did one of my periodic character
> reviews and found that this character had 32 (that's right 32 not 3.2)
> points worth of cyber in his body
oh dear....... Q? how many cortex bombs?

> The Doc had
> chopped him and got rich by selling the parts and was living it up in the
> Riviera.
in this case this is justifiable.

> And finally there was the time I told the entire party to
> just give me their character sheets because they were all dead.
sorry i don't think much of this. Ok they deserved to be dead but you
should always play it out, even if all they get is the perception
test target lots! followed by resist damage, but that only in the
most extrordinary circumstances.

> They hosed the run totally
> when the Cat Shaman was captured doing some scouting while invisible.
Should probably earn the Shaman a vist to interogation, maybe a
cortex bomb. When will folks learn magic is not invulnerability.

> Ute Authorities in bringing these international terrorists to justice and
> provided video's of all the dead mand known associates while they were
> conducting a "revenge run on Renraku ", it was actually a doctored version
> of them walking down the corrodors of the Renraku office that they went to
> meet their Johnson in.
Now thats more like it, and just like mega corps.

> I just decided they were all dead and gave each one
> of them a quick description of how it happened for him ( usually Ritual
> sendings )
1) you should roll the dice for PC's really.
2) did the corp in question have valid ritual samples?
3) why did they bother, having sorted that vid, a few leaks should
have trashed their reps, and left street scum to do it not their
expensive to use ritual team.

[David Thomsons post : start]
[ both were indented once.]
> >
> Sorry to say it, but this is exactly the kind of thing I don't like.
likewise.

> I've had characters killed by
> GM's because of things like this, actually less drastic though. I had a GM
> send huge magical and mundane forces after the party, chasing us and
> disorienting us with the troops, and then killing us all by a combination of
> suprise, huge elementals, and some invisible (as in really not present, even
> to astral perception) mage casting mind control on the guy with the minigun.
oh yes GM's that ignore the rules, don't bother to let Players chose
their reactions, don't implement the world (ie available actions are
limited by which the GM will deal with the results of etc etc) i
really dislike this sort of thing.

> (Oh, and the only
> reason he had suprise was because he decided to ignore me and one other list
> member yelling at him that we wanted to post watches and patrols -- remember
Ah yes the, i'll say what happens and ignore the players approach.
Or you stand there and watch.
Or somehow in initative infinity the chopper flies up, grab x, shoots
y and gets over the tree line!
Yeah right!, that last i saw followed same adventure by two sec
squads backed by about 4 grade 6 mages, we didn't know what they were
par Tir Na Nog (they described as average swat goons at worst) so
didn't surrender (that looked stupid like we were really going to
ever be free again, total adventure implosion followed in short
order)

The time i had PC's make a mess of a big corp penetration when GMing,
they got noticed, so the corpers set up an ambush and loaded gel, and
still the dratted rigger got away (the one with enough sense to spend
his first action running like mad!) The rest woke up less ritual
samples, with Cortex bombs and rather well acquainted with Sader
Krupp! Oh and asked 'oh so kindly' to tell Sader Krupp who hired them
(and not just the fixers name) and why.

Far more fun :), i did roll the dice, if fact the sec goons weren't
that spectacular just they had an ambush, lots of gel ammo and drone
+ magic backup, oh and better cover!

Mark

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Thwap!