Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 22:23:18 -0800
I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for personal use
intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do we have that permission?
Granted, it's a little simpler (and maybe cheaper) to just buy more
Character Dossiers, but it was something I still thought I'd ask, seeing as
how just about every book has had it in the past.

Zebulin

'All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.'
-Edmund Burke
Message no. 2
From: dv8@*************.com (Dennis)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:10:32 +0100
> I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for
> personal use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way,
> do we have that permission? Granted, it's a little simpler
> (and maybe cheaper) to just buy more Character Dossiers, but
> it was something I still thought I'd ask, seeing as how just
> about every book has had it in the past.

I talked to Adam Jury about it, who was one of the creators and he
assures me, unless I misunderstood him, that you do not have permission
to photocopy it for personal use.

Dennis
http://www.wiredreflexes.com
Message no. 3
From: moe@*******.com (Allen Versfeld)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 10:42:44 +0200
Dennis wrote:
>>I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for
>>personal use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way,
>>do we have that permission? Granted, it's a little simpler
>>(and maybe cheaper) to just buy more Character Dossiers, but
>>it was something I still thought I'd ask, seeing as how just
>>about every book has had it in the past.
>
>
> I talked to Adam Jury about it, who was one of the creators and he
> assures me, unless I misunderstood him, that you do not have permission
> to photocopy it for personal use.
>
> Dennis
> http://www.wiredreflexes.com
>
>


Not even the character sheets? (which I recall being the only part of
the previous editions you were allowed to copy)
Message no. 4
From: dv8@*************.com (Dennis)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:46:39 +0100
> > I talked to Adam Jury about it, who was one of the creators and he
> > assures me, unless I misunderstood him, that you do not have
> > permission to photocopy it for personal use.
>
> Not even the character sheets? (which I recall being the
> only part of
> the previous editions you were allowed to copy)

Let's leave that question for Adam to answer since I don't want to
spread wrong information.

Dennis
http://www.wiredreflexes.com
Message no. 5
From: rskuggen@******.no (rskuggen@******.no)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 9:51:25 +0100
>
> Fra: "Dennis" <dv8@*************.com>
> Dato: 2004/02/19 Thu AM 09:46:39 CET
> Til: "'Shadowrun Discussion'" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> Emne: RE: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
>
> > > I talked to Adam Jury about it, who was one of the creators and he
> > > assures me, unless I misunderstood him, that you do not have
> > > permission to photocopy it for personal use.
> >
> > Not even the character sheets? (which I recall being the
> > only part of
> > the previous editions you were allowed to copy)
>
> Let's leave that question for Adam to answer since I don't want to
> spread wrong information.
>
> Dennis
> http://www.wiredreflexes.com
>
>

You got to be joking, every (character) sheet in the past, both FASA FanPro products, have
allowed copy for personal use.

R.Skuggen
Message no. 6
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 01:09:01 -0800
rskuggen@******.no wrote on Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:51 AM:
>
> To: Shadowrun Discussion
> Subject: Re: RE: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
>
>
> >
> > Fra: "Dennis" <dv8@*************.com>
> > Dato: 2004/02/19 Thu AM 09:46:39 CET
> > Til: "'Shadowrun Discussion'" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
> > Emne: RE: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
> >
> > > > I talked to Adam Jury about it, who was one of the
> creators and he
> > > > assures me, unless I misunderstood him, that you do not have
> > > > permission to photocopy it for personal use.
> > >
> > > Not even the character sheets? (which I recall being the
> only part
> > > of the previous editions you were allowed to copy)
> >
> > Let's leave that question for Adam to answer since I don't want to
> > spread wrong information.
> >
> > Dennis
> > http://www.wiredreflexes.com
> >
> >
>
> You got to be joking, every (character) sheet in the past,
> both FASA FanPro products, have allowed copy for personal use.
>
> R.Skuggen
>

Ah, but the Character Dossier is pretty much only character sheets.

Zebulin
Message no. 7
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:09:52 +0100
According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23 the word on the
street was...

> I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for personal
> use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do we have that
> permission? Granted, it's a little simpler (and maybe cheaper) to just
> buy more Character Dossiers, but it was something I still thought I'd
> ask, seeing as how just about every book has had it in the past.

As I understand (US) copyright law, provided you own a "real" copy of the
Character Dossier, you can photocopy (or scan and print) it for your own
use all you like. It wouldn't be legal to give those copies to other
members of your gaming group, however, except to ones who also own a copy
of the real Character Dossier. (That's to say, they don't need to make the
photocopies themselves, and it'd still be legal.)

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 8
From: justin@***********.net (Justin)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:57:22 -0500
Gurth wrote:
> According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23 the word on the
> street was...
>
>
>>I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for personal
>>use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do we have that
>>permission? Granted, it's a little simpler (and maybe cheaper) to just
>>buy more Character Dossiers, but it was something I still thought I'd
>>ask, seeing as how just about every book has had it in the past.
>
>
> As I understand (US) copyright law, provided you own a "real" copy of the
> Character Dossier, you can photocopy (or scan and print) it for your own
> use all you like. It wouldn't be legal to give those copies to other
> members of your gaming group, however, except to ones who also own a copy
> of the real Character Dossier. (That's to say, they don't need to make the
> photocopies themselves, and it'd still be legal.)
>

Actually, as to copying yours and giving that copy to someone else who
owns an original, that's a murky area. Fair use can be defined as a copy
of YOUR original, made by you.
Message no. 9
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:04:44 -0000
Justin wrote:
> Gurth wrote:
> > According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23 the
> > word on the street was...
> >
> >
> > > I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for
> > > personal use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do we
> > > have that permission? Granted, it's a little simpler (and maybe
> > > cheaper) to just buy more Character Dossiers, but it was
> > > something I still thought I'd ask, seeing as how just about every
> > > book has had it in the past.
> >
> > As I understand (US) copyright law, provided you own a "real" copy
> > of the Character Dossier, you can photocopy (or scan and print) it
> > for your own use all you like. It wouldn't be legal to give those
> > copies to other members of your gaming group, however, except to
> > ones who also own a copy of the real Character Dossier. (That's to
> > say, they don't need to make the photocopies themselves, and it'd
> > still be legal.)
> >
>
> Actually, as to copying yours and giving that copy to someone else who
> owns an original, that's a murky area. Fair use can be defined as a
> copy of YOUR original, made by you.

Do you have to own your own photocopier too? Or would that just be
silly...

Matt


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004
Message no. 10
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 16:04:47 +0200
Justin wrote:
> Gurth wrote:
> > According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23
> the word on the
> > street was...
> >
> >
> >>I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy
> for personal
> >>use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do we have that
> >>permission? Granted, it's a little simpler (and maybe
> cheaper) to just
> >>buy more Character Dossiers, but it was something I still
> thought I'd
> >>ask, seeing as how just about every book has had it in the past.
> >
> >
> > As I understand (US) copyright law, provided you own a
> "real" copy of the
> > Character Dossier, you can photocopy (or scan and print) it
> for your own
> > use all you like. It wouldn't be legal to give those copies
> to other
> > members of your gaming group, however, except to ones who
> also own a copy
> > of the real Character Dossier. (That's to say, they don't
> need to make the
> > photocopies themselves, and it'd still be legal.)
> >
>
> Actually, as to copying yours and giving that copy to someone
> else who
> owns an original, that's a murky area. Fair use can be
> defined as a copy
> of YOUR original, made by you.

Perhaps I'm being amoral about this, and I'm not entirely sure of the
presentation of the dossier you're referring to, but it's a character sheet
in my understanding.

If they seriously expect everyone playing in a group to own a copy of the
books (which I've never seen; usually there's one or two floating around in
the group and they get shared), and to buy another copy (or another sheet)
whenever creating a new character, that's just ridiculous.

Copying the book is one thing, copying a few sheets of paper that you could
just as easily recreate in Excel or something doesn't really break my moral
code. If they want to arrest me for copyright infringement because I
photocopied their character sheet for my own use, they obviously don't have
anything better to do.

Or am I misunderstanding the whole conversation here?


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 11
From: mattgbond@********.com (Matthew Bond)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:13:26 -0000
Steve Garrard wrote:
> Justin wrote:
> > Gurth wrote:
> > > According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23 the
> > > word on the street was...
> > >
> > >
> > > > I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for
> > > > personal use intentional or a mistake? Or, put another way, do
> > > > we have that permission? Granted, it's a little simpler (and
> > > > maybe cheaper) to just buy more Character Dossiers, but it was
> > > > something I still thought I'd ask, seeing as how just about
> > > > every book has had it in the past.
> > >
> > > As I understand (US) copyright law, provided you own a "real"
> > > copy of the Character Dossier, you can photocopy (or scan and
> > > print) it for your own use all you like. It wouldn't be legal to
> > > give those copies to other members of your gaming group, however,
> > > except to ones who also own a copy of the real Character Dossier.
> > > (That's to say, they don't need to make the photocopies
> > > themselves, and it'd still be legal.)
> > >
> >
> > Actually, as to copying yours and giving that copy to someone
> > else who
> > owns an original, that's a murky area. Fair use can be
> > defined as a copy
> > of YOUR original, made by you.
>
> Perhaps I'm being amoral about this, and I'm not entirely sure of the
> presentation of the dossier you're referring to, but it's a character
> sheet in my understanding.
>
> If they seriously expect everyone playing in a group to own a copy of
> the books (which I've never seen; usually there's one or two floating
> around in the group and they get shared), and to buy another copy (or
> another sheet) whenever creating a new character, that's just
> ridiculous.
>
> Copying the book is one thing, copying a few sheets of paper that you
> could just as easily recreate in Excel or something doesn't really
> break my moral code. If they want to arrest me for copyright
> infringement because I photocopied their character sheet for my own
> use, they obviously don't have anything better to do.
>
> Or am I misunderstanding the whole conversation here?

You still have permission to copy the sheets in SR3, Matrix, MITS,
Rigger 3 etc, its only the particular sheets from the character dossier
you can't. If you want a character dossier for your character, you have
to buy one. It's not *that* expensive, nor is it essential for play.

Matt


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 18/02/2004
Message no. 12
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:44:37 -0500
On Feb 19, 2004, at 9:04 AM, Steve Garrard wrote:

> Perhaps I'm being amoral about this, and I'm not entirely sure of the
> presentation of the dossier you're referring to, but it's a character
> sheet
> in my understanding.
>
> If they seriously expect everyone playing in a group to own a copy of
> the
> books (which I've never seen; usually there's one or two floating
> around in
> the group and they get shared), and to buy another copy (or another
> sheet)
> whenever creating a new character, that's just ridiculous.

Steve,

The Shadowrun Character Dossier is a $5 product, 16 pages [plus content
on the inside front covers] product. It contains detailed sheets and
book-keeping elements for all character types, and is indeed meant to
be purchased "one per character" and then discarded or archived [who
throws away old characters? :-)] when you move onto the next character.

It's not designed for characters you only plan on playing a time or two
- it's designed for characters that are in it for the long haul. :-)

Permission is not granted by FanPro to photocopy any part of the
Shadowrun Character Dossier. Naturally, that request cannot overstep
your local copyright and fair use laws, so if it's legal in your
country to do so, copy away. I think the quality of the product [both
in execution and the physical bound form] is enough to make it worth
the five bucks. Also, FanPro is not exactly RIAA-inclined, so I doubt
they'll be attempting to sue you if you do photocopy the SRCD.

This does _not_ change the policy on the other character sheets
available in the sourcebooks or on ShadowrunRPG.com - permission is
given to photocopy those to your hearts content. However, as the humble
designer, the Shadowrun Character Dossier kicks their ass. ;-)

http://www.shadowrunrpg.com/products/product.php?
i673&title=The+Shadowrun+Character+Dossier for full production
information.

I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. If you have any further
questions, feel free to ask.

Best,
Adam
Message no. 13
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 08:22:12 -0800
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 14:13:26 -0000
"Matthew Bond" <mattgbond@********.com> wrote:
> Steve Garrard wrote:
> > Justin wrote:
> > > Gurth wrote:
> > > > According to zebulingod, on Thursday 19 February 2004 07:23 the
> > > > word on the street was..
> > > >
> > > > > I was wondering, was the lack of permission to photocopy for
> > > > > personal use intentional or a mistake? > > > >
[snip]
> > > Actually, as to copying yours and giving that copy to someone
> > > else who owns an original
> > Perhaps I'm being amoral about this, and I'm not entirely sure of the
>
[snip]
> >
> > If they seriously expect everyone playing in a group to own a copy of
> > the books (which I've never seen; usually there's one or two floating
> > around in the group and they get shared), and to buy another copy (or
> > another sheet) whenever creating a new character, that's just
> > ridiculous.
> >
> [snip]

> > Or am I misunderstanding the whole conversation here?
>
> You still have permission to copy the sheets in SR3, Matrix, MITS,
> Rigger 3 etc, its only the particular sheets from the character dossier
> you can't. If you want a character dossier for your character, you have
> to buy one. It's not *that* expensive, nor is it essential for play.
>
> Matt

Well, I've not used SR character sheets for decades, The primary storage for
my characters is electronic, as befits SR. That said, the ONLY sales I've had
for the dossier is to folks who say they intend to make copies to actually
deface by writing on them. Personally, I wish they'd put the publishing
resoruces into advancing one of the many promised sourcebooks. Nobody I know
has bought multiple original Charater Dossiers.
--Anders
Message no. 14
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:32:36 -0500
What I find a little weird is that to my knowledge, this is the only
resource of its type in the industry (RPGs) where permission to photocopy
for personal use is NOT given. It likely doesn't matter under the USA's
copyright laws (fair use and IANAL) anyway, and I doubt many people are
going to care. Seems like a odd oversight, as any possible benefit (people
would buy more copies) would be more than overridden by the neutrals (most
people won't care about the legalities) and the negative (appearance of
money-grubbing).

That having been said, I hope it sells enough to pay for itself, so Fanpro
can stay in business, but not well enough to encourage more of this kind of
thing.
Message no. 15
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:39:07 -0500
On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:22 AM, Anders Swenson wrote:

> Well, I've not used SR character sheets for decades, The primary
> storage for
> my characters is electronic, as befits SR. That said, the ONLY sales
> I've had
> for the dossier is to folks who say they intend to make copies to
> actually
> deface by writing on them. Personally, I wish they'd put the publishing
> resoruces into advancing one of the many promised sourcebooks. Nobody
> I know
> has bought multiple original Charater Dossiers.

The Character Dossier took exceptionally little time out of Rob's
schedule, and no time out out of any of the writers, artists, or layout
people that FanPro normally uses. Given the time and money invested, it
would be virtually impossible for this product not to be profitable.

Best,
Adam
Message no. 16
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:45:56 -0500
On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

> What I find a little weird is that to my knowledge, this is the only
> resource of its type in the industry (RPGs) where permission to
> photocopy
> for personal use is NOT given.

The Green Ronin d20 System Character Folio. Sold over 20,000 copies,
been reprinted four or five times now, won an Origins Award for best
Game Accessory in 2001.

There are others, but that's the most prominent - and, after I used it
for several months in a d20 campaign, a large part of my inspiration to
design the Shadowrun Character Dossier.

Best,
Adam
Message no. 17
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:46:28 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Jury
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:39 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy

The Character Dossier took exceptionally little time out of Rob's
schedule, and no time out out of any of the writers, artists, or layout
people that FanPro normally uses. Given the time and money invested, it
would be virtually impossible for this product not to be profitable.

-----Reply Message-----

Good. I'm still not sure I'd buy one; I have kicking around my HD someplace
the Wordman SRSheets31.pdf, which is the standard for my campaign. I would
prefer a fully electronic character sheet that can be updated and saved, so
as to reduce the risk of lost sheets, or sheets dragged into the cat's
letter box, etc.

I wonder how well the dossier would have done as an e-published item. The
problem with this is while RPGNow does great guns as a D20 source, I'm not
sure how non-d20 e-material does.
Message no. 18
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 11:55:24 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Adam Jury
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:46 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy

On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:32 AM, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

> What I find a little weird is that to my knowledge, this is the only
> resource of its type in the industry (RPGs) where permission to
> photocopy
> for personal use is NOT given.

The Green Ronin d20 System Character Folio. Sold over 20,000 copies,
been reprinted four or five times now, won an Origins Award for best
Game Accessory in 2001.

There are others, but that's the most prominent - and, after I used it
for several months in a d20 campaign, a large part of my inspiration to
design the Shadowrun Character Dossier.

-----Reply Message-----
I sit corrected. Maybe I'll have to check it out. I'm still more in favor of
soft character sheets (both in d20 and in SR), but the legalities of soft
character sheets have (IMHO) stunted their potential.
Message no. 19
From: zebulingod@*******.net (zebulingod)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 09:34:39 -0800
Adam Jury wrote on Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:45 AM:
>
> Steve,
>
> The Shadowrun Character Dossier is a $5 product, 16 pages
> [plus content on the inside front covers] product. It
> contains detailed sheets and book-keeping elements for all
> character types, and is indeed meant to be purchased "one per
> character" and then discarded or archived [who throws away
> old characters? :-)] when you move onto the next character.
>
> It's not designed for characters you only plan on playing a
> time or two
> - it's designed for characters that are in it for the long haul. :-)
>

Yeah, I got that. [: I wouldn't go through all the trouble of filling that
out for a character I'm only going to use a time or two, anyway.

> Permission is not granted by FanPro to photocopy any part of
> the Shadowrun Character Dossier. Naturally, that request
> cannot overstep your local copyright and fair use laws, so if
> it's legal in your country to do so, copy away. I think the
> quality of the product [both in execution and the physical
> bound form] is enough to make it worth the five bucks. Also,
> FanPro is not exactly RIAA-inclined, so I doubt they'll be
> attempting to sue you if you do photocopy the SRCD.
>
<SNIP>
>
> I hope this clears up any misunderstandings. If you have any
> further questions, feel free to ask.
>
> Best,
> Adam
>

Yes, it does, thank you.

Zebulin

"Per Ardua ad Astra"
Message no. 20
From: bull@*********.com (Bull)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 04:23:27 -0500
At 04:09 AM 2/19/2004, zebulingod wrote:

> > You got to be joking, every (character) sheet in the past,
> > both FASA FanPro products, have allowed copy for personal use.
> >
> > R.Skuggen
> >
>
>Ah, but the Character Dossier is pretty much only character sheets.
>
>Zebulin

Actually, it's not just "character sheets", it's a single character sheet
that they sell as a folio for personal use, at a relatively low price.

On one hand, $5 is a bit expensive for a 16 page character sheet, but on
the other hand... It's the price of lunch at McDonald's for a 16 page
character reference book that is designed to be used for a long time.

It's also a standard practice these days for this type of book. There are
several D20 D&D record folio's kicking around, and Guardian's of Order does
one for pretty much every game they do (Both Tri-Stat and D20), and as far
as I know, none of them allow photocopying and they're all around the $5.00
mark.

Bull
Message no. 21
From: me@******.net (Hexren)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:12:46 +0100
B> At 04:09 AM 2/19/2004, zebulingod wrote:

>> > You got to be joking, every (character) sheet in the past,
>> > both FASA FanPro products, have allowed copy for personal use.
>> >
>> > R.Skuggen
>> >
>>
>>Ah, but the Character Dossier is pretty much only character sheets.
>>
>>Zebulin

B> Actually, it's not just "character sheets", it's a single character sheet
B> that they sell as a folio for personal use, at a relatively low price.

B> On one hand, $5 is a bit expensive for a 16 page character sheet, but on
B> the other hand... It's the price of lunch at McDonald's for a 16 page
B> character reference book that is designed to be used for a long time.

B> It's also a standard practice these days for this type of book. There are
B> several D20 D&D record folio's kicking around, and Guardian's of Order does
B> one for pretty much every game they do (Both Tri-Stat and D20), and as far
B> as I know, none of them allow photocopying and they're all around the $5.00
B> mark.

B> Bull

---------------------------------------------

haven't seen one of those but I would guess the worth is not that much in
the special abillity of the sheet to hold data but more on teh fact
that it is bonded and all that stuff. I mean everybody with some exel
experince can make Sheets can't he ;)
Message no. 22
From: adamj@*********.com (Adam Jury)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:31:53 -0500
On Feb 19, 2004, at 3:12 PM, Hexren wrote:

> haven't seen one of those but I would guess the worth is not that much
> in
> the special abillity of the sheet to hold data but more on teh fact
> that it is bonded and all that stuff. I mean everybody with some exel
> experince can make Sheets can't he ;)

That all depends on what your time is worth to you. I'd rather buy game
products that save me time, giving me more time to enjoy the game!

Best,
Adam
Message no. 23
From: valeuj@*****.navy.mil (Valeu, John W. EM3 (AS40 R-3))
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:51:52 +1000
> > You still have permission to copy the sheets in SR3, Matrix, MITS,
> > Rigger 3 etc, its only the particular sheets from the
> character dossier
> > you can't. If you want a character dossier for your
> character, you have
> > to buy one. It's not *that* expensive, nor is it essential for play.
> >
> > Matt
>
> Well, I've not used SR character sheets for decades, The
> primary storage for
> my characters is electronic, as befits SR. That said, the
> ONLY sales I've had
> for the dossier is to folks who say they intend to make
> copies to actually
> deface by writing on them. Personally, I wish they'd put the
> publishing
> resoruces into advancing one of the many promised
> sourcebooks. Nobody I know
> has bought multiple original Charater Dossiers.
> --Anders

Check your email. You just got a buyer.
<grin>
That's one for each player and a couple for my (N)PCs (I use them as NPC
during GMing, PCs for when I play. Which isn't very often.)
Message no. 24
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:57:22 +0100
According to Hexren, on Thursday 19 February 2004 21:12 the word on the
street was...

> I mean everybody with some exel experince can make Sheets can't he ;)

And kill two birds with one stone that way: make a character sheet, and
prove they have no clue about using the right tool for a job :P

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 25
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:08:42 +0200
Adam Jury wrote:
> The Shadowrun Character Dossier is a $5 product, 16 pages
> [plus content
> on the inside front covers] product. It contains detailed sheets and
> book-keeping elements for all character types, and is indeed
> meant to
> be purchased "one per character" and then discarded or archived [who
> throws away old characters? :-)] when you move onto the next
> character.
>
> [snip]

Ahh my mistake. I guess I should know better than to comment on something
I'm not sure about (I've never seen the dossier in question before). I
understood it to be basic character sheets, such as those in the back of
SR3.

My apologies to the humble designer :)


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 26
From: SteveG@***********.co.za (Steve Garrard)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:16:36 +0200
Adam Jury wrote:
> On Feb 19, 2004, at 3:12 PM, Hexren wrote:
>
> > haven't seen one of those but I would guess the worth is
> not that much
> > in
> > the special abillity of the sheet to hold data but more on teh fact
> > that it is bonded and all that stuff. I mean everybody with
> some exel
> > experince can make Sheets can't he ;)
>
> That all depends on what your time is worth to you. I'd
> rather buy game
> products that save me time, giving me more time to enjoy the game!
>
> Best,
> Adam

Hmm...sounds like a sales pitch to me :P


Slayer

"Beware my wrath, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
- Unknown Dragon



**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by
MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.

www.mimesweeper.com
**********************************************************************
Message no. 27
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:11:46 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 4:57 AM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy

According to Hexren, on Thursday 19 February 2004 21:12 the word on the
street was...

> I mean everybody with some exel experince can make Sheets can't he ;)

And kill two birds with one stone that way: make a character sheet, and
prove they have no clue about using the right tool for a job :P

-----Reply Message-----
Depends on what you want the character sheet to do. If you just want
something to print out, sure Excel is not the tool; a DTP package is. If you
want it to do some calculations and validation, spreadsheets do pretty well.
If you want it to do a *lot* of calculations and validation, a DB is good
(if you can do DBs; otherwise, excel isn't bad).
Message no. 28
From: gurth@******.nl (Gurth)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 19:31:03 +0100
According to Jonathan Hurley, on Friday 20 February 2004 16:11 the word on
the street was...

> Depends on what you want the character sheet to do. If you just want
> something to print out, sure Excel is not the tool; a DTP package is. If
> you want it to do some calculations and validation, spreadsheets do
> pretty well.

But then you're not making a character sheet, but a character _creator_
that happens to have its data in a character-sheet-like shape.

> If you want it to do a *lot* of calculations and
> validation, a DB is good (if you can do DBs; otherwise, excel isn't
> bad).

Heh, I never did understand spreadsheets, but could get to grips with DBs
much more easily when I had to use them...

--
Gurth@******.nl - Stone Age: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
You've been touched by the doubt of man
-> Probably NAGEE Editor * ShadowRN GridSec * Triangle Virtuoso <-
-> The Plastic Warriors Page: http://plastic.dumpshock.com <-

GC3.12: GAT/! d- s:- !a>? C++(---) UL+ P(+) L++ E W--(++) N o? K w(--)
O V? PS+ PE@ Y PGP- t- 5++ X(+) R+++$ tv+(++) b++@ DI- D+ G+ e h! !r y?
Incubated into the First Church of the Sqooshy Ball, 21-05-1998
Message no. 29
From: anders@**********.com (Anders)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 03:28:31 -0000
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
To: "Shadowrun Discussion" <shadowrn@*****.dumpshock.com>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 6:31 PM
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy


According to Jonathan Hurley, on Friday 20 February 2004 16:11 the word on
the street was...

> Depends on what you want the character sheet to do. If you just want
> something to print out, sure Excel is not the tool; a DTP package is. If
> you want it to do some calculations and validation, spreadsheets do
> pretty well.

But then you're not making a character sheet, but a character _creator_
that happens to have its data in a character-sheet-like shape.

> If you want it to do a *lot* of calculations and
> validation, a DB is good (if you can do DBs; otherwise, excel isn't
> bad).

Heh, I never did understand spreadsheets, but could get to grips with DBs
much more easily when I had to use them...

I use good ol' Word and Excel. For a basic character, I use a freeform
spreadsheet
to get the points right, then paste over to Word and do the detailed numbers
and stats
from some extensive tables I have compiled for my private use. As I've said,
the real
character sheet is in magnetic (or static, given my proto-credstick) and an
instant image
is printed out as needed. Now, if the nice people would kindly put the game
of the
future on electronic media, so I wouldn't wind up doing all that typing...

--Anders
Message no. 30
From: silvercat@***********.org (Jonathan Hurley)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2004 00:52:01 -0500
-----Original Message-----
From: Gurth
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 1:31 PM
To: Shadowrun Discussion
Subject: Re: Re[3]: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy

According to Jonathan Hurley, on Friday 20 February 2004 16:11 the word on
the street was...

> Depends on what you want the character sheet to do. If you just want
> something to print out, sure Excel is not the tool; a DTP package is. If
> you want it to do some calculations and validation, spreadsheets do
> pretty well.

But then you're not making a character sheet, but a character _creator_
that happens to have its data in a character-sheet-like shape.

-----Reply Message-----

We're getting semantic here - where is the line? I call it a character sheet
because it records the data. It does some calculations, but is not a
stand-alone process; it requires fairly frequent reference to the books.
Message no. 31
From: lists@*******.com (Wordman)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:07:42 -0500
On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Jonathan Hurley wrote:

> Good. I'm still not sure I'd buy one; I have kicking around my HD
> someplace
> the Wordman SRSheets31.pdf, which is the standard for my campaign. I
> would
> prefer a fully electronic character sheet that can be updated and
> saved, so
> as to reduce the risk of lost sheets, or sheets dragged into the cat's
> letter box, etc.

So would I.

Getting there in baby steps:
http://www.divnull.com/lward/srun/xml/index.html

Wordman
Message no. 32
From: anders@**********.com (Anders Swenson)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 09:10:02 -0800
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:07:42 -0500
Wordman <lists@*******.com> wrote:
> On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
> >I would prefer a fully electronic character sheet that can be updated and

> >saved, so as to reduce the risk of lost sheets, or sheets dragged into
> >the cat's letter box, etc.
>
> So would I.
>
> Getting there in baby steps:
> http://www.divnull.com/lward/srun/xml/index.html
>
> Wordman
>

As I say, there's always word processing. My characters live on my credstick,
pardon, thumbdrive. But I cannot share my tables, as we all know.
--Anders
Message no. 33
From: davek@***.lonestar.org (David Kettler)
Subject: Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 21:06:35 +0000
On Wed, Feb 25, 2004 at 09:10:02AM -0800, Anders Swenson wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 08:07:42 -0500
> Wordman <lists@*******.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 19, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Jonathan Hurley wrote:
> > >I would prefer a fully electronic character sheet that can be updated and
>
> > >saved, so as to reduce the risk of lost sheets, or sheets dragged into
> > >the cat's letter box, etc.
> >
> > So would I.
> >
> > Getting there in baby steps:
> > http://www.divnull.com/lward/srun/xml/index.html
> >
> > Wordman
> >
>
> As I say, there's always word processing. My characters live on my credstick,
> pardon, thumbdrive. But I cannot share my tables, as we all know.
> --Anders

I use LyX to make all my character sheets. It's essentially a TeX based word processor.
It has some quirks, but after getting used to it I can't even stand the thought of going
back to a conventional word processor. The output it produces looks so much better as
well, plus it's trivial to export to PDF so others can view it.

--
Dave Kettler
davek@***.lonestar.org
http://davek.freeshell.org
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Character Dossier & Permission to Photocopy, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!