Back to the main page

Mailing List Logs for ShadowRN

Message no. 1
From: Pavlo Jakovski <pavloj@*******.bgu.ac.il>
Subject: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 21:33:14 +0200 (IST)
A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
Help me out here, huh guys?

P.S.
To gurth: I understand that an M16 can fire 15 rounds a second, but I was
talking about a guy with superhuman speed, not your average Joe
Shadowrunner. Anyway, I think there should be a rule that makes firing a
weapon take more actions the more turns you have, since the firing speed
has nothing to do with your character's reflexes. Please comment!
******************************************************************************
The Future is uncertain, but the end is always near.
-Jim Morrison
******************************************************************************
Mile Yagupsky (yup, my name!)
Message no. 2
From: adam@***.cosmos.ab.ca
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 13:55:02 -0700
>A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
>old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
>am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
>Help me out here, huh guys?
>

My characters always want to make new guns. I make them use Weapon B\R, and
assign a base time of a least 100 hours, depending on the type of gun. They
have to dedicate the time to it, no slipping in a hour here and a hour
there. They have to buy the materials, and after the gun is made, it's
ussually not the best. Then my players try to pass it off onto Ares or
somewhere, trying to make the big nuyen..doesn't work ussually.

---------------------------------------------------\
\ Adam Jury \Old Noah took much ridicule \
\ Adam@******.ab.ca \building his great ark, But \
--------------------\after 40 days and 40 nights \
\ God Bless Kurt \ he was looking pretty smart \
\--------------------------------------------------\
\http://www.cosmos.ab.ca/~adam/ \
\My own web page, up, but still under construction \
----------------------------------------------------
Message no. 3
From: MikeE@******.dragonsys.com
Subject: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths -Reply
Date: Wed, 27 Dec 1995 15:54:28 -0500
You can allow players to develope unique
gadgets and weapons and still keep some game
balance, just take some care. For example, here
is how I would handle your situation.
1) Have player describe exactly what he wants to
do. ("I want a gun that has a built in -1 TN")
2) Deceide how non-standard the design would
have to be to acomplish this, or if it is possible at
all.
3) Have the player roll a Firearms B/R roll with a
target number depending on the difficulty of step
2. Zero successes means "You can't do it.".
One or more successes gives the player an
estimate of how long it would take (the base time
for the task), how much money it will cost in raw
materials, and about what the target number will
be. The more successes, the more accurate
these estimates will be. One success should be
off by a factor of at least 3.
For other types of tech, this would be a Theory
skill roll, not a B/R roll, if appropriate.
3) If the player still wants to go ahead, have them
roll the task (per SR rules), spend the time and
money, and then try it out. If you want to make
the players sweat, add approximately one hidden
flaw per week spent on the building, and have
them make hidden B/R rolls at the end to
discover them. A failed roll means "It seems to
work OK", while actually it might have a
corrosion problem, so that it works fine till they
take it to the coast...
If things ever get out of hand, just start making
the target numbers higher, and the base times
longer. If you ever accidentally let them build a
super-weapon, give it a few hidden flaws that
"they just hadn't noticed yet".

Double-Domed Mike
Message no. 4
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 18:51:13 +1100 (EST)
>A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
>old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
>am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
>Help me out here, huh guys?
>

The main trouble here is that you've got one guy doing the work of
literally thousands of people who already design weapons. So, you're not
likely to be able to come up with something that isn't already out
there... Okay, so inventing's probably out of the question. Upgrading, on
the other hand... what kind of upgrades are we talking about? As long as
they aren't ridiculous (like retooling a light pistol to fire heavy
pistol ammo), then yeah, go for it... but most upgrades aren't worth the
cost.

About the only worthwhile upgrade I could see would be expanding the ammo
capacity, or integrating smartgun circuitry.

Once you rule the upgrade is permissible, you get them to roll an
appropriate B/R test. Firearms B/R, most likely.

>P.S.
>To gurth: I understand that an M16 can fire 15 rounds a second, but I was
>talking about a guy with superhuman speed, not your average Joe
>Shadowrunner. Anyway, I think there should be a rule that makes firing a
>weapon take more actions the more turns you have, since the firing speed
>has nothing to do with your character's reflexes. Please comment!

Actually... no. If you hold the trigger down, it WILL fire that fast. The
advantage of superhuman reflexes are:
You can get your finger on and off the trigger faster, giving you more
bursts.
You can compensate for the recoil better (which is why the recoil mods
are only for the action, not for the turn).

What you MIGHT want to do if multiple full-auto's are a problem is:
a) Make the recoil last a full turn, only getting back your mods each
action (yeah, this will screw 'em... that +3 becomes a +6, becomes a
+9...)
b) Cut back on the amount of recoil mods. "Gee... your minigun can't
take gas vents... six of the things get in the way of the barrels
rotating.", "You can't use that gyromount AND brace it to get the effect
of the shock pad". Those kind of things.



Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 5
From: "Gurth" <gurth@******.nl>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:00:51 +0100
Pavlo Jakovski said on 27 Dec 95...

> A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
> old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
> am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
> Help me out here, huh guys?

I think it should involve at least some Firearms B/R test. Upgrading an
old weapon depends on what he wants to do. If it's fitting a smartlink, it
should not be too hard; if he wants to totally rebuild the thing, give him
a TN of 10 or so. Oh, and require him to have the tools for the job.

> To gurth: I understand that an M16 can fire 15 rounds a second, but I was
> talking about a guy with superhuman speed, not your average Joe
> Shadowrunner. Anyway, I think there should be a rule that makes firing a
> weapon take more actions the more turns you have, since the firing speed
> has nothing to do with your character's reflexes. Please comment!

You can look at it this way: SR firing rates have little to do with how
many rounds you can fire in a given amount of time (if they did, a minigun
should have a ROF in the order of 200 to 300); instead, it indicates the
number of rounds you can _accurately_ fire in 10 Combat Phases. People
with fast reflexes can aim more quickly, and so can fire more rounds in a
turn.

--
Gurth@******.nl - http://www.xs4all.nl/~gurth/index.html
Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom.
-> NERPS Project Leader & Unofficial Shadowrun Guru <-
-> The Character Mortuary: http://huizen.dds.nl/~mortuary/mortuary.html <-

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version 3.1:
GAT/! d-(dpu) s:- !a>? C+(++)@ U P L E? W(++) N o? K- w+ O V? PS+ PE
Y PGP- t(+) 5+ X+ R+++>$ tv+(++) b+@ DI? D+ G(++) e h! !r(--) y?
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 6
From: "A Halliwell" <u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 11:57:26 +0000 (GMT)
|
|A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
|old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
|am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
|Help me out here, huh guys?
|
Why not introduce a new skill or special skill called "Weapon Design Theory"
to complement the B/R Firearms skill?
All the rolls would be hidden, the manufacturer would need all the tools of
the trade and if quality control B/R rolls failed, he wouldn't detect any
flaws.

<*BANG*> SHIT! My hand!!!! AAAAaaarrrrgh!
If the manufacturer intends to incorporate computer or electonics components
make him use (or work with someone who can use) software engineering and B/R
Electronics and/or computers.

Step 1: Design
Step 2: Finalising the Design
Step 3: Build Weapon
Step 4: Quality Control

Also, the person who builds the weapon should have a penalty to do the
quality control, as any essay writer knows! He'll overlook obvious errors
that someone unfamiliar with the work will spot instantly!

Hope this helps....

--
______________________________________________________________________________
| |What to do if you find yourself stuck in a crackin |
|u5a77@**.keele.ac.uk |the ground beneath a giant bolder, which you can't |
| |move, with no hope of rescue. |
|Andrew Halliwell |Consider how lucky you are that life has been good |
|Principal in:- |to you so far... |
|Comp Sci & Visual Arts | -The BOOK, Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 7
From: John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 12:10:26 -0700 (MST)
On Wed, 27 Dec 1995, Pavlo Jakovski wrote:

<snip>
> To gurth: I understand that an M16 can fire 15 rounds a second, but I was
> talking about a guy with superhuman speed, not your average Joe
> Shadowrunner. Anyway, I think there should be a rule that makes firing a
> weapon take more actions the more turns you have, since the firing speed
> has nothing to do with your character's reflexes. Please comment!

I believe that there is a rule in FoF that says that you can fire one
round per phase, so if you fire more than 10 rounds, you have to use your
next action as well. I'm going from memory, so I couldn't be positive.

John IV <John.Moeller@*.cc.utah.edu>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes after an electrical storm I see in 5 dimensions. Why are the
sixty of you looking at me like that?"

--Cornfed, from _Duckman_

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GM d- s+:+> a--- C+>++++$ US>+++ P+? L? E---- W++>+++$ !N-- o? K !w---
!O M++>$ !V PS+>$ PE->$ Y+>$ PGP>$ t++>+++$ 5(+)>$ X+ R+(++)>+++$
tv(tv)>$ b+>$ DI+(++)>++++ !D- G(+)>+++$ e>+++++$ h-->$ r-->+$* y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------
Message no. 8
From: sedahdro@*****.com (Victor Rodriguez, Jr)
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 95 15:53 EST
>I believe that there is a rule in FoF that says that you can fire one
>round per phase, so if you fire more than 10 rounds, you have to use your
>next action as well. I'm going from memory, so I couldn't be positive.
Actually it says that regular weapons capable of full auto can fire 10
rounds per combat phase, but then it goes on in saying that miniguns and
supermachine guns can fire a maximum of 15 rounds per combat phase. So the
maximum amount of rounds a charcter can fire in a combat phase is determined
by the type of weapon (regular machingun, minigun, or supermachinegun.)
This is all found on page 81 of FoF.
---Sedah Drol
--
ATTN: Due to lack of interest, tomorrow has been canceled.
GC3.1
GO>CS d- s:--- a21 C++++>$ U--- P L-- E? W+>W+++ N o? K? w+>w++++ O--- M-- V
PS+++ PE Y+ PGP- t++ 5+ X++ R++>+++$ tv++ b- DI++ D+ G++ e* h r++ y++
Message no. 9
From: Robert Watkins <robertdw@*******.com.au>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Fri, 29 Dec 1995 18:31:33 +1100 (EST)
>I believe that there is a rule in FoF that says that you can fire one
>round per phase, so if you fire more than 10 rounds, you have to use your
>next action as well. I'm going from memory, so I couldn't be positive.

Well... kinda. In FoF, it states that:
normal FA weapons can fire 10 rounds in an action. (No idea about
_when_ each round is fired, though).
Miniguns MUST fire 15 rounds each action, no choice. Or no bullets, of
course.
Super-machineguns can fire UP to 15 rounds, or 2 6-round bursts (they
can't fire 3 round bursts). Again, no idea when each round is fired.

For timing: well, with suppression fire, the bullets hang in the air for
10 phases (which is NOT the same as your next action).

If you want some sort of skill-based autofire rule (though the recoil
mods should do that, anyway), bring back the rule from First Edition: you
can't fire more rounds than your firearm skill.


--
Robert Watkins robertdw@*******.com.au
Real Programmers never work 9 to 5. If any real programmers
are around at 9 am, it's because they were up all night.
Message no. 10
From: Paul Jonathan Adam <Paul@********.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Thu, 28 Dec 1995 10:56:12 GMT
> A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
> old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
> am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
> Help me out here, huh guys?

I allow this sort of thing with PCs using antique weapons, and also
I make up a lot of weapons. Basically, take a look at the equivalents
in the books. If he's "created" a weapon, or his PC 'discovers' the
new Paladin SMG from KhanTech, then look carefully at it compared to
the competition. If it seems unbalanced, discuss it with him.

The alternative is to tell him his character begins hunting around
gunsmiths, and discuss with him what he wants in a weapon. Then draw
up a few possibilities and tell him what's on offer: make him make
a decision, compromise, adapt. Players seem to like that stuff.

Third option, dive over to Paolo's archive and find the weapons in my
list of gear stored therein. Read them through, reject what you don't
want in your campaign and modify as necessary, then offer them to your
player as other options.

> P.S.
> To gurth: I understand that an M16 can fire 15 rounds a second, but I was
> talking about a guy with superhuman speed, not your average Joe
> Shadowrunner. Anyway, I think there should be a rule that makes firing a
> weapon take more actions the more turns you have, since the firing speed
> has nothing to do with your character's reflexes. Please comment!

Given how rarely most of our characters fire long bursts, it hasn't been
a problem. And, again, with three actions per turn, one turn about
three seconds, and one all-out burst being about one second's worth
of full-auto, it seems to add up okay. Wires let you put down a greater
volume of controlled fire, but then you're emptying a magazine a turn.
That can have embarrassing results.

Player: "Empty? Okay, I reload."
GM: "From the spares in your coat pockets?"
P: "That's right."
G: "But you took the coat off when you came in..."
P: "...Can I use this thing as a club?"


> Mile Yagupsky (yup, my name!)

--
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have defined your attitude towards
him. You have offered a definite answer to a definite problem. For better
or for worse, you have acted decisively.
In fact, the next move is up to him." <R.A. Lafferty>

Paul J. Adam paul@********.demon.co.uk
Message no. 11
From: Sascha Pabst <Sascha.Pabst@****.informatik.uni-oldenburg.de>
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 1995 14:30:43 +0100 (MET)
Adam Jury wrote:
> >A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
> >old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
> >am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
> >Help me out here, huh guys?
>
> My characters always want to make new guns. I make them use Weapon B\R, and
> assign a base time of a least 100 hours, depending on the type of gun. They
> have to dedicate the time to it, no slipping in a hour here and a hour
> there. They have to buy the materials, and after the gun is made, it's
> ussually not the best. Then my players try to pass it off onto Ares or
> somewhere, trying to make the big nuyen..doesn't work ussually.
Hm, I for one wouldn't spend my time as weaponsmith (neither me nor my
characters) but give the problem to an NSC. "Hey, can you optimize this
<insert weapon of choice>? What does it cost me? *GASP* OK." Or find someone
to build me a weapon that does something special.

But, to be honest, it doesn't save too much time... My characters have to
earn the money for the weapon... :-(
And as player (or GM) I still have to think about the mechanics of the weapon,
the impact on game balance as well as if there might be a way it can be done.

Sascha

--
+---___---------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
| / / _______ | Jhary-a-Conel aka Sascha Pabst | The one does not |
| / /_/ ____/ |Sascha.Pabst@**********.Uni-Oldenburg.de |learn from history|
| \___ __/ | or | is bound to live |
|==== \_/ ======| Westerstr. 20 / 26121 Oldenburg | through it again.|
|LOGOUT FASCISM!| *Wearing hats is just a way of live* | |
+---------------+-----------------------------------------+------------------+
Message no. 12
From: westec@******.COM
Subject: Re: Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1996 03:12:23 -0600
>A player in my group want's to either invent a new weapon or upgrade an
>old one. Does anybody have an idea how to do this? For the time being I
>am not allowing it in my team, because of the game inbalance.
>Help me out here, huh guys?
>

does he have the engineering skills? is he having something researched
and done?
are you including the R&D time and equipment required for him to accomplish
this task,
and including proper TN modifiers for malfunction? there's a number of ways
to make
this task something for him to earn, in terms of skills, rolls, etc...
depending on
whether he's trying to make a doomsday weapon or an SMG with longer range.
(weapon/metal physics aside...)

plus, who else knows of his attempts?? rival arms manufacturers interested??
copyright/trademark infringement... other sams want it and rather not
pay??? plenty
of action hooks there too....



---------construction in progress-------------------
westec@******.com
TIP #1323
IPPA #A-0117
Lively #F188
---------construction in progress-------------------

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Characters(or Players) as weaponsmiths, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

These messages were posted a long time ago on a mailing list far, far away. The copyright to their contents probably lies with the original authors of the individual messages, but since they were published in an electronic forum that anyone could subscribe to, and the logs were available to subscribers and most likely non-subscribers as well, it's felt that re-publishing them here is a kind of public service.

Thwap!