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Message no. 1
From: Paolo Marcucci <marcucci@***.TS.ASTRO.IT>
Subject: CharGen
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 08:22:00 METDST
But, sometimes ago, there's a post regarding house rules.
It says that you can use all the rules you want, house, written
or mixed in YOUR game.

But when you go to a convention, and try to play SR with people
that you don't know, there is a general consensus on rules.
Typically Dowd-written rules.

(ugh, another industry standard? :)

Paolo
--
+-----------------------------------------------------+
| Paolo Marcucci / marcucci@***.ts.astro.it |
| Osservatorio Astronomico di Trieste|
+-----------------------------------------------------+
Message no. 2
From: Barbie <barbie@**********.COM>
Subject: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:37:32 -0500
Hello,
I`m trying to make a overhaul of the SRcomp`s pointbased
chargen. If you have something thats bothers you with these system
feel free to speak your mind because I will try to make my version
a better one :-)
Input is encouraged as alwasy :-)
--
Barbie


==================================================
You can see the earth we`re high here we`re
climbing over sumertowm you can kiss the air we`re
gliding follow me for sumerland no sound no life
no essence we lay enstranged in our curious ways
memories lay beside us but i`m seeing through an
age who i`m through sumerland.

(Fields of the Nephilim-Eilzium-Weil of Sumer)

Message no. 3
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 22:38:38 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:37:32 -0500 Barbie <barbie@**********.COM> writes:
>Hello,
>I`m trying to make a overhaul of the SRcomp`s pointbased
>chargen. If you have something thats bothers you with these system
>feel free to speak your mind because I will try to make my version
>a better one :-)
>Input is encouraged as alwasy :-)


Expect lots of 'input' from Mc23:)

--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 4
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:42:19 -0500
At 01:37 AM 7/23/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello,
>I`m trying to make a overhaul of the SRcomp`s pointbased
>chargen. If you have something thats bothers you with these system
>feel free to speak your mind because I will try to make my version
>a better one :-)
>Input is encouraged as alwasy :-)
>--
>Barbie


The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
example. The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?
Message no. 5
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:02:08 EDT
On Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:42:19 -0500 John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes:
<snippers>
<<The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception
for example.>>


I can. Almost any adept (physads especially). This is remedied by the
rules Mr. Kenson posted to us a while back, but I think it should be
possible for most (but not all, physads should not be allowed access to
things like Astral Sight:) characters should have access to them (this is
related to my own Combo'd adepts stuff:)


<<The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why should a
samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?>>


He shouldn't, and there's an easy fix: when Magic equals 0 (or, at the
least, when Essence is less than 1), the character _cannot_ use magic.
Period. It's simple, and it works. Such a character can no longer channel
enough energy with their astral template (see explanation in
Cybertechnology) to create any magical effect, hence the Magic Rating of
0. I'd be willing to allow a character with a Magic Rating of 0 to use
magic, but only so long as their Essence is at least equal to 1.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 6
From: Skye Comstock <bilbo@****.NWLINK.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:55:54 -0800
>The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
>single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
>example. The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
>should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?

Do you not take into account the character himself? Personally, when
I make a character with the Points system, I have better things to
do than skimp on points, and no, I usually don't even take flaws...
If your character has some reason/talent for looking into the Astral,
then consult your GM and get it, if not, why give it to him? Other
than being a munchkin?

-Skye
Message no. 7
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 00:18:33 -0500
At 09:42 PM 7/22/97 -0500, John wrote:
>The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
>single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
>example.

Considering that you have to be magically active to take any magical talent
edge, there's quite a few characters out there who simply cannot take the
Astral Sight edge. I agree, though. It should cost like 5 points.

> The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
>should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?

He can't. As is also mentioned under "Magical Talents" you must have a
point of magic. Since a samurai with 0.0001 (or even 0.0) essence would
have no magic rating, he'd have no access to magical talents. He'd also
have to had bought magic at chargen or he couldn't get it anyway.

Lots of people have overlooked huge areas of the point-based system, have
deigned not to even try it, and voice loudly their opinion that it is
overpowered and leads to rule abuse. Characters built under the point
system end up LESS powerful than those built under the priority system. I
know, I've worked through the system. FASA knows, they make this
acknowledgement in the section on the point-based system.

Work through the system before you form your opinions on it...
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 8
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:08:02 -0500
>>The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
>>single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
>>example.

>
>Considering that you have to be magically active to take any magical talent
>edge, there's quite a few characters out there who simply cannot take the
>Astral Sight edge. I agree, though. It should cost like 5 points.
>

>> The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
>>should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?

>
>He can't. As is also mentioned under "Magical Talents" you must have a
>point of magic. Since a samurai with 0.0001 (or even 0.0) essence would
>have no magic rating, he'd have no access to magical talents. He'd also
>have to had bought magic at chargen or he couldn't get it anyway.
>
>Lots of people have overlooked huge areas of the point-based system, have
>deigned not to even try it, and voice loudly their opinion that it is
>overpowered and leads to rule abuse. Characters built under the point
>system end up LESS powerful than those built under the priority system. I
>know, I've worked through the system. FASA knows, they make this
>acknowledgement in the section on the point-based system.
>
>Work through the system before you form your opinions on it...

Nonsense. I have thoroughly read the point system. I just reread the entire
section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about base
magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I couldnt find
a "Magical Talents" section anywhere in the Companion. I realize it makes
sense for the low essence samauri to be unable to use magical edges however
the (official) rules do not state that he is unable to take them. Please
feel free to post a page number for the section "Magical Talents" I seem to
have "overlooked" it. The description of astral perception as an Edge is
this: "The character can see into the astral plane through astral
perception. However, characters cannot astrally project or make use of any
magical skills without the appropriate magic priority allocation. Astrally
active characters have all the normal abilities of astral perception and can
learn the aura reading skill (p.96 AWAKENINGS)." I am not advocating that
GMs let .1 essence samauri have magical abilities however there is nothing
in the book that prohibits it. Are you trying to imply the point system cant
be abused? I suggest house rules. As for the other edges/flaws some are
_incredibly_ easy to abuse. Take for example the 1 pt edge Natural Immunity.
Is it balanced if RunnerX is immune to narcoject toxin in exchange for a
mild phobia of hearing a trains whistle? I guess that +1TN modifier while
hearing a train whistly is worth complete immunity to narcoject? At any rate
please show me I'm wrong. I would rather like to read the cleverly hidden
section on balancing magical talents.

John Dukes
Message no. 9
From: Matb <mbreton@**.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:49:32 -0500
>Nonsense. I have thoroughly read the point system. I just reread the
entire section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about
base magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I
couldnt find a "Magical Talents" section anywhere in the Companion. I
realize it makes sense for the low essence samauri to be unable to use
magical edges however the (official) rules do not state that he is
unable to take them. Please feel free to post a page number for the
section "Magical Talents" I seem to have "overlooked" it.

To paraphrase Pink Floyd" "The rules, it's in the..."

P. 33 of the Companion, uner Magical Talent (of which Astral Sight is
one of several): "Only magically active characters with active Magic
Ratings of 1 or higher can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges
listed ... above. A character whose Magic Rating drops below 1
automatically loses all Magical Talent Edges."


Someone should post Steve Kenson's take on the Edges/Flaws on the Web
(I know someone's worked some near-hit rules, with variable adept
costs, but I'd like to see the original words).
Message no. 10
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 06:08:46 -0500
>
>P. 33 of the Companion, uner Magical Talent (of which Astral Sight is
>one of several): "Only magically active characters with active Magic
>Ratings of 1 or higher can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges
>listed ... above. A character whose Magic Rating drops below 1
>automatically loses all Magical Talent Edges."
>

Now this IS wierd because I'm looking at pg 33 now and dont see any of this.
There is a chart at top with "spellcasting talent, summoning talent, astral
sight, and poor link". There are 4 sections under "magical edges and
flaws"
that start on pg 32. I see a "bad karma" a "bonus force points"
(continued
to pg 33) a "focused concentration", a "magic resistance", then
"Misellaneous edges and flaws" headind with stuff like cortex bombs and
hunted. Have there been more than 1 version of the companion? I didnt think
there was a SR1 companion or was there? I bought mine in a hobby shop last
month. It says its copyright 1996... I dont know, If it does say the quoted
material above in the official book then I am incorrect in saying that a
sammie can take magic edges. As for the the other edges/flaws they are still
easily abusible but if the eratta above is true then the edges/flaw table is
much less nasty than I thought.

John
Message no. 11
From: "Wendy Wanders, Subject 117" <KGGEWEHR@******.ACS.MUOHIO.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:04:06 -0500
You wrote:
> The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
> single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
> example. The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
> should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?

Ask your player that very question when he creates the character.
"Um, ummmm... Hm. Yeah, er..."
Well, he might have an explanation, but it prolly won't make too much sense.
People need to make sense when they build characters, and GMs who see glaring
nonsense on a sheet need to call the player on it.

losthalo
Message no. 12
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:11:23 +0000
On 23 Jul 97 at 0:18, TopCat wrote:

> At 09:42 PM 7/22/97 -0500, John wrote:
> >The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
> >single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception for
> >example.
>
> Considering that you have to be magically active to take any magical talent
> edge, there's quite a few characters out there who simply cannot take the
> Astral Sight edge. I agree, though. It should cost like 5 points.

Ok, I can't take it anymore. I am going to repost this again so that
those who haven't seen it can get it right. Those of you that have, I
apologize. This is a post that Steve Kenson sent that clarifies the
magical edges and flaws as they were intended to be represented.
Please spread the word. It makes perfect sense when viewed in this
manner, and is not overpowerful. Makes the point system even more
flexible, and magic more interesting and varied.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Magicians, Adepts and the Build Point System
Taken from a ShadowRN post by Steve Kenson
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- MAGICAL ABILITY BREAKDOWN These are the options for magical
ability that I use with the Build-Point System presented in the
Shadowrun Companion. People will recognize some of these levels of
ability as Magical Edges from the Edges & Flaws section and it might
help to clarify how those Edges & Flaws were intended (by me, at
least) to work.

GENERAL RULES
All characters with any kind of magical ability (i.e., anyone who
has spent more than 0 Build Points on magical ability) have a Magic
Attribute, which begins at 6. These characters are collectively
known as "Talented" or "Gifted." ("Magician" is used in my
campaigns
as a generic term for Talented characters with the highest level of
magical ability.) All Talented characters are subject to the rules
governing the Magic Attribute, including loss due to Essence Loss
and Deadly Wounds. Such characters are also all subject to the geasa
rules due to Magic loss.

All Talented characters must follow a tradition (although they may
not always KNOWINGLY do so). The tradition is chosen at character
creation and may not be changed.

MAGICIAN (20 points)
This level gives the character access to full use all of the magical
skills and abilities of his chosen tradition. Generally this will be
either Hermetic (mage) or Shamanic (shaman), but there are other
traditions available to offer slightly different abilities, such as
Nature Magic, Voudoun and so forth.

ADEPT (15 points)
At this level, the character has access to ONE significant area of
magical ability from his chosen tradition. This could be full use of
a single magical skill or partial use of all skills and abilities.
Adepts can bond or use foci that are applicable to their magical
skills and abilities. The character can choose ONE of the following
options:

Conjuring Adept: The character can make full use of the Conjuring
skill, but is considered mundane for other magical skills or
abilities, this includes applications of Conjuring that require
Astral Perception or Projection (including metamagic). The character
can bond or use foci that are applicable to the Conjuring skill.

Elemental Adept: This option is only open to mages. The character is
"aligned" with one of the four hermetic elements: Earth, Air, Fire
or Water. The character can use the Sorcery skill to cast spells
aligned to that element and Conjuring to summon spirits aligned with
that element as well as watchers. The adept can astrally perceive
and project. For all other uses of magical skill, the adept is
considered a mundane.

Physical Adept: The adept "grounds" all of his magical ability into
his body. He may "buy" physical adept powers using his Magic Rating,
but is considered a mundane for the use of all magical skills.
Physical adepts cannot astral perceive unless they purchase the
power that allows them to do so.

Shamanic Adept: This option is only open to shamans. The adept can
use Sorcery to cast spells for which their totem grants a bonus and
Conjuring to summon spirits for which the totem grants a bonus. The
adept can also astrally perceive and project. For all other uses of
magical skill, the adept is considered a mundane. Shamanic adepts
are only available for those totems which provide bonuses based on
Spell Category of Spirit Type, not totems that have bonsuses based
on things such as time of day (such as Owl) or no bonuses (such as
Coyote).

Sorcery Adept: The character can make full use of the Sorcery skill,
but is considered mundane for other magical skills or abilities,
this includes applications of Sorcery that require Astral Perception
(including metamagic).

MINOR ADEPT (Cost varies)
At this level, the character has PARTIAL access to the use of a
magical skill or ability or full use of a fairly limited skill or
ability. Minor adepts can bond and use foci that affect their areas
of skill and ability.

Astral Adept (5 points): The character can make use of astral
perception and projection, but is considered a mundane for the use
of all magical skills.

Banishing Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to
attempt to banish any type of spirit. For all other uses of magical
skill and ability, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot
control spirits, only banish them. The adept does gain a totem
bonus, if shamanic, for banishing the appropriate kind of spirit.

Enchanting Adept (5 points): The adept can make full use of the
Enchanting skill. For all other magical skills and abilities, the
adept is considered a mundane.

Astral Sight Adept (3 points): The adept can use astral perception,
but not astral projection. For the use of magical skills, the adept
is considered a mundane. Note this still means that the adept can
learn the specialization of Sorcery for astral combat, since even
mundanes can do so (see Awakenings).

Spell Adept (varies): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to cast a
single spell. If the spell is eligible to be cast using Ritual
Sorcery, the adept can do this as well. The adept can also provide
Spell Defense against the spell he can cast, but not from any
others. For all other magical skills and abilities, including other
uses of the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane. He
cannot learn or use any other spells. The cost is based on the type
of spell known: Combat (4 points), Detection (2 points), Health (3
points), Illusion (3 points) or Manipulation (4 points). The
gamemaster may adjust the cost if the spell is considered especially
flexible or weak. The spell is automatically known at a Force equal
to the adept's starting Magic Rating and can be increased normally
by spending Karma.

Spirit Adept (varies): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to
summon a single type of spirit: a specific elemental or nature
spirit or a watcher spirit. The adept follows the normal rules for
conjuring the spirit, but cannot have more than one spirit summoned
or bound at a time. The adept may also attempt to banish or control
spirits of the type he can summon. For all other magical skills and
abilities, including other uses of the Conjuring skill, the adept is
considered a mundane. The cost is based on the type of spirit the
adept can summon: elemental or nature spirit (5 points), or watcher
(3 points).

Negamagic Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to
provide Spell Defense. The number of dice that the adept may
allocate to spell defense is limited to no more than the adept's
Magic Attribute. The adept does not gain the use of Shielding or any
other metamagical abilities on Initiation, only increased Magic and
the ability to allocate more dice to spell defense per turn that
comes with it. For all other magical skills and abilities, including
other uses of the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane.

NOTES
Gamemasters may have to keep an eye on minor adepts to keep them
from becoming a problem, given their low point cost. Generally
speaking, the Magic Attribute limitation keeps most character
concepts from abusing the option; it's not worth it for a heavily
cybered character to spend 5 points for Negamagic or Banishing
ability if his Magic Attribute is going to be too low to make much
use of it.

Minor adepts (like all of the Talented) have to carefully balance
the benefits of cyberware and implants with maintaining their minor
magical ability. Many of them decide it's not worth it to maintain a
magical lifestyle and go the full cyber-route, burning out and
becoming mundanes. In fact, some cyber characters might have had a
minor adept ability once and just never knew about it before they
had stuffed themselves so full of metal and cultured tissue that
their Power went "poof."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
---- Steve Kenson's writing for FASA includes Awakenings and
Shadowrun Companion.
____________________________________________________________________
Thanks also to Loki for re-posting this the last time so that I
could save it.

--
===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 13
From: Drekhead <drekhead@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:28:58 +0000
On 23 Jul 97 at 5:08, John Dukes wrote:

> section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about base
> magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I couldnt find

> have "overlooked" it. The description of astral perception as an Edge is
> this: "The character can see into the astral plane through astral
> perception. However, characters cannot astrally project or make use of any
> magical skills without the appropriate magic priority allocation. Astrally
> active characters have all the normal abilities of astral perception and can
> learn the aura reading skill (p.96 AWAKENINGS)." I am not advocating that

John, you answered your own question. See the part that says "without
the appropriate magic priority allocation?" That is the requirement
for base magic ability. You have to spend points to be able to use
magic, i.e. Priority A or B (or C if you use minor adepts). This
translates to 20, 15, or various on the build point system.
It is quite simple, really.

--

===DREKHEAD==================================drekhead@***.net===
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/6990/index.html
================================================================
If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot
stomping on a human face...forever. -George Orwell
----------------------------------------------------------------
Message no. 14
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:27 EDT
John Dukes wrote:

<<Have there been more than 1 version of the companion?>>


Actually, there is a corrected version, where they made sure everything
was written up as was intended (like the thing on the Oni where they
could swap Race and Magic in Chargen, what was intended was that they be
able to swap out Race, Magic and Resources in some way to leave open a
higher priority for Resources, I think)


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 15
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:51:26 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:08:02 -0500 John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes:

<<Nonsense. I have thoroughly read the point system. I just reread the
entire section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about
base magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I
couldnt find a "Magical Talents" section anywhere in the Companion. I
realize it makes sense for the low essence samauri to be unable to use
magical edges however the (official) rules do not state that he is unable
to take them. >>


<buzzer> Oh, I'm sorry, that's not the correct answer, but you've been a
great contestant and we have some wonderful consolation prizes for you...

Actually, that is _exactly_ what the official rules state. Under "Magical
Talent", p33

Only magically active characters with Magic Ratings of 1 or
higher can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges. . .

This is contrary to the intentions of the writer (Steve Kenson), who
intended that only a character who has not already selected Magic
Priority could get _one_ of the Magical Talent Edges (so a character
without any selected Magic Priority could get Astral Sight OR the ability
to conjure watchers OR the ability to cast a _single_ spell OR etc, etc)

<<Please feel free to post a page number for the section "Magical
Talents" I seem to have "overlooked" it.>>


See above.


<<The description of astral perception as an Edge is this: "The character
can see into the astral plane through astral perception. However,
characters cannot astrally project or make use of any magical skills
without the appropriate magic priority allocation. Astrally active
characters have all the normal abilities of astral perception and can
learn the aura reading skill (p.96 AWAKENINGS)." I am not advocating that
GMs let .1 essence samauri have magical abilities however there is
nothing in the book that prohibits it.>>


Again, see above. It also states that a character loses all magical
talents and abilities when his Magic rating becomes less than 1.


<<Are you trying to imply the point system cant be abused? I suggest
house rules.>>


No, TopCat just feels that the point system is less open to abuse, not
that it is immune to abuse.


<<As for the other edges/flaws some are _incredibly_ easy to abuse. Take
for example the 1 pt edge Natural Immunity.>>


Actually, Astral Sight is a better one, you can give it to a physad. Or
there's Lightning Reflexes. Or High Pain Tolerance. Or Amnesia (for the
person too lazy to write up a background, 2 _extra_ Build Points). Or
SOTA Model. Or Aptitude. Or. . . But, if you, as a GM, can't trust your
players to create balanced characters on their own, then you need to
start working more closely with them. Feel free to ban certain Edges and
Flaws, and feel free to ban the entire point-based system, the entire
book is totally optional, after all.


<<Is it balanced if RunnerX is immune to narcoject toxin in exchange for
a mild phobia of hearing a trains whistle? I guess that +1TN modifier
while hearing a train whistly is worth complete immunity to narcoject? At
any rate please show me I'm wrong.>>


On which point, Magical Talents or Natural Immunity? I just demonstrated
Magical Talents, and if you'll read closely you'll see that Natural
Immunity is only good against a _natural_ disease or toxin, so unless you
can point out a passage where it states that Narcoject is a
naturally-ocurring substance. . . You can have an immunity to hemlock, or
nightshade, cyanide (it _does_ occur naturally, after all:) or against
VITAS or the common cold, but not against any man-made poison or
biowarfare agent, which is explicitly stated in the approriate text.


<<I would rather like to read the cleverly hidden section on balancing
magical talents.>>


Page 33, bottom left-hand column, Shadowrun Companion. Read it closely,
it's not that complicated.


--
-Canthros
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 16
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:45:38 -0400
On Wednesday, July 23, 1997 01:18, TopCat[SMTP:topcat@***.NET] wrote:
> At 09:42 PM 7/22/97 -0500, John wrote:

> Lots of people have overlooked huge areas of the point-based system, have
> deigned not to even try it, and voice loudly their opinion that it is
> overpowered and leads to rule abuse. Characters built under the point
> system end up LESS powerful than those built under the priority system.
I
> know, I've worked through the system. FASA knows, they make this
> acknowledgement in the section on the point-based system.
>
> Work through the system before you form your opinions on it...

I agree with you. Metahuman mages get a bit of a boost. (Which tey sorely
needed IMHO.) Other than that, the point-based system is very nice.

Edges and flaws OTOH, the concept is good, but the execution is, well, a
little flawed. Pain resistance is the edge most noticed by my players (to
the point where I has to limit the use of it,) and no-one really wants to
take flaws. (Oh, and both phobias and allergies are missing the "Nuisance"
entry on their tables that would allow them to be -1 at the minimum.
(Nuisance: Has no game affect, but the character will tend to avoid
situations that put him in contact with it.))

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 17
From: Jonathan Hurley <jhurley1@************.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:59:21 -0400
On Wednesday, July 23, 1997 06:08, John Dukes[SMTP:dukes@*******.NET]
wrote:
> >>The entire edges/flaws table is completely messed up. I cant think of a
> >>single character I wouldnt pay 3 edge points to give astral perception
for
> >>example.
>
> >
> >Considering that you have to be magically active to take any magical
talent
> >edge, there's quite a few characters out there who simply cannot take
the
> >Astral Sight edge. I agree, though. It should cost like 5 points.
> >
>
> >> The point system can be used to severely abuse the rules. Why
> >>should a samauri with .0001 essence be able to do anything magical?
>
> >
> >He can't. As is also mentioned under "Magical Talents" you must have a
> >point of magic. Since a samurai with 0.0001 (or even 0.0) essence would
> >have no magic rating, he'd have no access to magical talents. He'd also
> >have to had bought magic at chargen or he couldn't get it anyway.
> >
> >Lots of people have overlooked huge areas of the point-based system,
have
> >deigned not to even try it, and voice loudly their opinion that it is
> >overpowered and leads to rule abuse. Characters built under the point
> >system end up LESS powerful than those built under the priority system.
I
> >know, I've worked through the system. FASA knows, they make this
> >acknowledgement in the section on the point-based system.
> >
> >Work through the system before you form your opinions on it...
>
> Nonsense. I have thoroughly read the point system. I just reread the
entire
> section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about base
> magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I couldnt
find
> a "Magical Talents" section anywhere in the Companion. I realize it makes
> sense for the low essence samauri to be unable to use magical edges
however
> the (official) rules do not state that he is unable to take them. Please
> feel free to post a page number for the section "Magical Talents" I seem
to
> have "overlooked" it. The description of astral perception as an Edge is
> this: "The character can see into the astral plane through astral
> perception. However, characters cannot astrally project or make use of
any
> magical skills without the appropriate magic priority allocation.
Astrally
> active characters have all the normal abilities of astral perception and
can
> learn the aura reading skill (p.96 AWAKENINGS)." I am not advocating that
> GMs let .1 essence samauri have magical abilities however there is
nothing
> in the book that prohibits it. Are you trying to imply the point system
cant
> be abused? I suggest house rules. As for the other edges/flaws some are
> _incredibly_ easy to abuse. Take for example the 1 pt edge Natural
Immunity.
> Is it balanced if RunnerX is immune to narcoject toxin in exchange for a
> mild phobia of hearing a trains whistle? I guess that +1TN modifier while
> hearing a train whistly is worth complete immunity to narcoject? At any
rate
> please show me I'm wrong. I would rather like to read the cleverly hidden
> section on balancing magical talents.

First, Bob (TopCat) is saying that the point-based character gen system is
good. The point-based system is *NOT* the edges/flaws system, they have
very little to do with each other. You *can* have one without using the
other. Second, a samurai with less than 1 point of essence *cannot* have
any of the magical talent edges as his magic rating would then be less than
1, and p33 SRC says "Only ... characters with ... Magic ratings of 1 or
higher can purchase any of the magical talent edges listed on the table
above. A character whose magic rating drops below 1 automatically loses all
magical talent edges." (The ellipses above indicate places where the FASA
editorial department munged the author's intentions. The first says
"magically active" and the second says "active." Hey Steve, can you
talk to
FASA and try to get them to issue errata for the paragraph?)

Second, a PC cannot be immune to Narcoject toxin without spending Y40K in
chargen. Natural immunity only allows you to be immune to a *natural* toxin
or disease. Manmade toxins and bio-war agents cannot be affected. (The Y40K
in Chargen refers the the player choosing to have his character undergo
Immunization (from Shadowtech, p75) against Narcoject toxin. And only if
the GM decides that Immunization is good against other than diseases of
bacterial origin. (The text isn't to clear.))

Third, yes, the edges/flaws system needs a fair amount of GM supervision.
Deal, or don't allow it.

--
Quicksilver rides again
--------------
Those who would give up a little freedom for security
deserve neither freedom nor security
-Benjamin Franklin
Yeah, I have Attention Deficit Dis - Hey, look at that butterfly!
Jonathan Hurley (mailto:jhurley1@************.edu)
Message no. 18
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:03:26 -0500
>> have "overlooked" it. The description of astral perception as an Edge
is
>> this: "The character can see into the astral plane through astral
>> perception. However, characters cannot astrally project or make use of any
>> magical skills without the appropriate magic priority allocation. Astrally
>> active characters have all the normal abilities of astral perception and can
>> learn the aura reading skill (p.96 AWAKENINGS)." I am not advocating that

>
>John, you answered your own question. See the part that says "without
>the appropriate magic priority allocation?" That is the requirement
>for base magic ability. You have to spend points to be able to use
>magic, i.e. Priority A or B (or C if you use minor adepts). This
>translates to 20, 15, or various on the build point system.
>It is quite simple, really.
>

The sentence says "However, characters cannot astrally project or make use
of any magical skills withough the appropriate magic priority allocation."
Its referring to magical skills such as sorcery, conjuring, etc. Sure, the
percieving guy cant throw a spell, but he CAN spot the Elemental lurking in
astral space 30 ft away.

Yes it IS simple, but the question is can a complete mundane take the
magical talents. I've heard yes and no as answers.

John
Message no. 19
From: TopCat <topcat@***.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:20:24 -0500
At 06:03 PM 7/23/97 -0500, John wrote:
>Yes it IS simple, but the question is can a complete mundane take the
>magical talents. I've heard yes and no as answers.

The answer is no...

[pg. 33, Shadowrun Companion, bottom of page under the heading "Magical Talent"]

"Only magically active characters with active magic ratings of 1 or higher
can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges listed on the table above. A
character whose magic rating drops below 1 loses all Magical Talent edges."

Pretty cut and dry, don't you think? First off, a character must have a
magic rating. In order to have a magic rating, said character must have
bought Magician or Adept with priorities or points (depending on how you
choose to make your characters). In order to have a magic rating above one,
said Magician or Adept must have at least 1 full point of essence.

Now where confusion runs rampant is when people say...

"But here's what (whoever) wanted!" or "It should be this way!"

This requires players to accept non-canon rules. If you argue rules from a
non-canon standpoint, you aren't arguing the rules of Shadowrun. If you
wish to use an alternate (non-canon) view, then please do not confuse it for
canon and do not argue that it is.

Even by Steve's rules, the character would've had to have put C priority (or
D if metahuman) into magic in order to get one of the Magical Talents (which
wouldn't have been edges under Steve's rules). Also, said character would
no longer be mundane as he would've put points into magic.

So, once again, the answer is no. Mundanes can't use the Magical Talent
Edge. There's the quote from the book which explains it, there's the
reasoning behind the words, there's the answer.

TopCat's right again ;)
--
Bob Ooton
topcat@***.net
Message no. 20
From: John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:20:26 -0500
><buzzer> Oh, I'm sorry, that's not the correct answer, but you've been a
>great contestant and we have some wonderful consolation prizes for you...
>
>Actually, that is _exactly_ what the official rules state. Under "Magical
>Talent", p33
>
> Only magically active characters with Magic Ratings of 1 or
>higher can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges. . .
>
>This is contrary to the intentions of the writer (Steve Kenson), who
>intended that only a character who has not already selected Magic
>Priority could get _one_ of the Magical Talent Edges (so a character
>without any selected Magic Priority could get Astral Sight OR the ability
>to conjure watchers OR the ability to cast a _single_ spell OR etc, etc)
>

As I have said previously in this thread there is no such section in my copy
of the book. Perhaps I've somehow got ahold of an unedited copy. Does anyone
else have a copy with this text missing?


>On which point, Magical Talents or Natural Immunity? I just demonstrated
>Magical Talents, and if you'll read closely you'll see that Natural
>Immunity is only good against a _natural_ disease or toxin, so unless you
>can point out a passage where it states that Narcoject is a
>naturally-ocurring substance. . . You can have an immunity to hemlock, or
>nightshade, cyanide (it _does_ occur naturally, after all:) or against
>VITAS or the common cold, but not against any man-made poison or
>biowarfare agent, which is explicitly stated in the approriate text.
>

True enough, Narcoject isnt the best example (thats what I get for listing a
toxin off the top of my head).

At any rate, yes, the system can be abused.

John
Message no. 21
From: John E Pederson <lobo1@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 20:16:33 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 18:20:26 -0500 John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes:

>As I have said previously in this thread there is no such section in
>my copy
>of the book. Perhaps I've somehow got ahold of an unedited copy. Does
>anyone
>else have a copy with this text missing?


In that case, here's what appears on pg 33, bottom left corner of the
page, under 'Magical Talent'

Value: Variable

Only magically active characters with active Magic Ratings of 1
or higher can purchase any of the Magical Talent Edges listed on the
table above. Acharacter whose Magic Rating drops below 1 automatically
loses all Magical Talent Edges.

Magical Talent appears underneath Magic Resistance.


>True enough, Narcoject isnt the best example (thats what I get for
>listing a
>toxin off the top of my head).

:)

>At any rate, yes, the system can be abused.


Any system can be abused, flexibility only makes it easier to abuse a
system by leaving more possible loopholes. Nothing is fool-proof, there
are more than enough fools around to prove that:) The truth is that I can
turn out characters that are just as abusive of the rules no matter what
creation system I use (I can create a downright scary-a$$ human samurai
with the Sum-to-Ten system, and the one I make using the standard system
is only slightly less scary) I can do just as bad with the point system,
maybe. Any system can be abused, and the fact is that a character created
under standard rules can be just as abusive as one created under house or
optional rules systems. Yadda, yadda, yadda:) And I've seen several Troll
Sammies that were perfectly legal according to the interpretation of the
rules that I held at the time (this was not necessarily the correct
interpretation, just the one I happened to hold at the time) that I have
no other word for except "munchkin":)


--
-Canthros, who has rambled far too long on a fairly simple point
I had rather believe all the fables in the legends and the Talmud
and the Alcoran, than that this universal frame is without a mind.
--Francis Bacon
http://members.aol.com/canthros1
Message no. 22
From: Loki <daddyjim@**********.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:30:47 -0700
---John Dukes wrote:
>
> Nonsense. I have thoroughly read the point system. I just reread the
entire
> section and couldnt find a single sentence saying anything about base
> magical ability being a requirement for taking magical edges. I
couldnt find
> a "Magical Talents" section anywhere in the Companion. I realize it
makes
> sense for the low essence samauri to be unable to use magical edges
however
> the (official) rules do not state that he is unable to take them.
Please
> feel free to post a page number for the section "Magical Talents" I
seem to
> have "overlooked" it.

Following is a post from Steve Kenson, who wrote for the Shadowrun
Companion and Awakenings In it he explainins errors in the FASA
publishing of the Magical Edges. Apparently the final publishing
didn't come out as he'd intended when designing them in the first
place.

I know this post has circled around the list a few times, but I
figured I'd throw it out again since this thread seems to be heading
in that direction anyways.

===
@>--,--'--- Loki <gamemstr@********.com>

Poisoned Elves: www.primenet.com/~gamemstr/

"You're being held up by a stim patch, Loki's almost a pile of ashes
thanks to that fire elemental, and we've got the Baron running around
screaming assassins...assassins...oh eek, assassins!"
--> Caric to Ook during the Harlequin Campaign

~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!

Magicians, Adepts and the Build Point System
Taken from a ShadowRN post by Steve Kenson
------------------------------------------------------------------------
MAGICAL ABILITY BREAKDOWN
These are the options for magical ability that I use with the
Build-Point System presented in the Shadowrun Companion. People will
recognize some of these levels of ability as Magical Edges from the
Edges & Flaws section and it might help to clarify how those Edges &
Flaws were intended (by me, at least) to work.

GENERAL RULES
All characters with any kind of magical ability (i.e., anyone who has
spent more than 0 Build Points on magical ability) have a Magic
Attribute, which begins at 6. These characters are collectively known
as "Talented" or "Gifted." ("Magician" is used in my
campaigns as a
generic term for Talented characters with the highest level of magical
ability.) All Talented characters are subject to the rules governing
the Magic Attribute, including loss due to Essence Loss and Deadly
Wounds. Such characters are also all subject to the geasa rules due to
Magic loss.

All Talented characters must follow a tradition (although they may not
always KNOWINGLY do so). The tradition is chosen at character creation
and may not be changed.

MAGICIAN (20 points)
This level gives the character access to full use all of the magical
skills and abilities of his chosen tradition. Generally this will be
either Hermetic (mage) or Shamanic (shaman), but there are other
traditions available to offer slightly different abilities, such as
Nature Magic, Voudoun and so forth.

ADEPT (15 points)
At this level, the character has access to ONE significant area of
magical ability from his chosen tradition. This could be full use of a
single magical skill or partial use of all skills and abilities.
Adepts can bond or use foci that are applicable to their magical
skills and abilities. The character can choose ONE of the following
options:

Conjuring Adept: The character can make full use of the Conjuring
skill, but is considered mundane for other magical skills or
abilities, this includes applications of Conjuring that require Astral
Perception or Projection (including metamagic). The character can bond
or use foci that are applicable to the Conjuring skill.

Elemental Adept: This option is only open to mages. The character is
"aligned" with one of the four hermetic elements: Earth, Air, Fire or
Water. The character can use the Sorcery skill to cast spells aligned
to that element and Conjuring to summon spirits aligned with that
element as well as watchers. The adept can astrally perceive and
project. For all other uses of magical skill, the adept is considered
a mundane.

Physical Adept: The adept "grounds" all of his magical ability into
his body. He may "buy" physical adept powers using his Magic Rating,
but is considered a mundane for the use of all magical skills.
Physical adepts cannot astral perceive unless they purchase the power
that allows them to do so.

Shamanic Adept: This option is only open to shamans. The adept can use
Sorcery to cast spells for which their totem grants a bonus and
Conjuring to summon spirits for which the totem grants a bonus. The
adept can also astrally perceive and project. For all other uses of
magical skill, the adept is considered a mundane. Shamanic adepts are
only available for those totems which provide bonuses based on Spell
Category of Spirit Type, not totems that have bonsuses based on things
such as time of day (such as Owl) or no bonuses (such as Coyote).

Sorcery Adept: The character can make full use of the Sorcery skill,
but is considered mundane for other magical skills or abilities, this
includes applications of Sorcery that require Astral Perception
(including metamagic).

MINOR ADEPT (Cost varies)
At this level, the character has PARTIAL access to the use of a
magical skill or ability or full use of a fairly limited skill or
ability. Minor adepts can bond and use foci that affect their areas of
skill and ability.

Astral Adept (5 points): The character can make use of astral
perception and projection, but is considered a mundane for the use of
all magical skills.

Banishing Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to
attempt to banish any type of spirit. For all other uses of magical
skill and ability, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot
control spirits, only banish them. The adept does gain a totem bonus,
if shamanic, for banishing the appropriate kind of spirit.

Enchanting Adept (5 points): The adept can make full use of the
Enchanting skill. For all other magical skills and abilities, the
adept is considered a mundane.

Astral Sight Adept (3 points): The adept can use astral perception,
but not astral projection. For the use of magical skills, the adept is
considered a mundane. Note this still means that the adept can learn
the specialization of Sorcery for astral combat, since even mundanes
can do so (see Awakenings).

Spell Adept (varies): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to cast a
single spell. If the spell is eligible to be cast using Ritual
Sorcery, the adept can do this as well. The adept can also provide
Spell Defense against the spell he can cast, but not from any others.
For all other magical skills and abilities, including other uses of
the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane. He cannot learn
or use any other spells. The cost is based on the type of spell known:
Combat (4 points), Detection (2 points), Health (3 points), Illusion
(3 points) or Manipulation (4 points). The gamemaster may adjust the
cost if the spell is considered especially flexible or weak. The spell
is automatically known at a Force equal to the adept's starting Magic
Rating and can be increased normally by spending Karma.

Spirit Adept (varies): The adept can use the Conjuring skill to summon
a single type of spirit: a specific elemental or nature spirit or a
watcher spirit. The adept follows the normal rules for conjuring the
spirit, but cannot have more than one spirit summoned or bound at a
time. The adept may also attempt to banish or control spirits of the
type he can summon. For all other magical skills and abilities,
including other uses of the Conjuring skill, the adept is considered a
mundane. The cost is based on the type of spirit the adept can summon:
elemental or nature spirit (5 points), or watcher (3 points).

Negamagic Adept (5 points): The adept can use the Sorcery skill to
provide Spell Defense. The number of dice that the adept may allocate
to spell defense is limited to no more than the adept's Magic
Attribute. The adept does not gain the use of Shielding or any other
metamagical abilities on Initiation, only increased Magic and the
ability to allocate more dice to spell defense per turn that comes
with it. For all other magical skills and abilities, including other
uses of the Sorcery skill, the adept is considered a mundane.

NOTES
Gamemasters may have to keep an eye on minor adepts to keep them from
becoming a problem, given their low point cost. Generally speaking,
the Magic Attribute limitation keeps most character concepts from
abusing the option; it's not worth it for a heavily cybered character
to spend 5 points for Negamagic or Banishing ability if his Magic
Attribute is going to be too low to make much use of it.

Minor adepts (like all of the Talented) have to carefully balance the
benefits of cyberware and implants with maintaining their minor
magical ability. Many of them decide it's not worth it to maintain a
magical lifestyle and go the full cyber-route, burning out and
becoming mundanes. In fact, some cyber characters might have had a
minor adept ability once and just never knew about it before they had
stuffed themselves so full of metal and cultured tissue that their
Power went "poof."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Kenson's writing for FASA includes Awakenings and Shadowrun
Companion
_____________________________________________________________________
Sent by RocketMail. Get your free e-mail at http://www.rocketmail.com
Message no. 23
From: Tim Cooper <z-i-m@****.COM>
Subject: Re: Chargen
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 21:17:29 EDT
On Wed, 23 Jul 1997 05:08:02 -0500 John Dukes <dukes@*******.NET> writes:

[snip]

>Is it balanced if RunnerX is immune to narcoject toxin in exchange for a
>mild phobia of hearing a trains whistle? I guess that +1TN modifier
while
>hearing a train whistly is worth complete immunity to narcoject? At any
rate
>please show me I'm wrong. I would rather like to read the cleverly
hidden
>section on balancing magical talents.

Well that's just Edges/Flaws in general.... stuff like that happens in
just about ANY system that uses them. Which just so happens to be one of
the major reasons I don't like to use them... I as a GM don't like having
to check the ones the players may pile on, and don't want to become a
tyrant by saying which one's can and can't be used. It becomes a pain
when we use the same characters for mulitple GM's and we each have
different views about them. IMHO, the less of them the better.

~Tim

Further Reading

If you enjoyed reading about Chargen, you may also be interested in:

Disclaimer

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Thwap!